Grand Prix Rejects

dr-baker wrote:

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:

eurobrun wrote:The more I think about it there is no reason in me being here. I have managed to piss off pretty much the whole forum and it's not like I have contributed anything useful anyway. Not sure whether to leave the forum for a while or not.

No you haven't, I still think you're a cool guy. Don't beat yourself up over occasionally pissing people off; we all make mistakes. None of us hold it against you.

Haven't annoyed me at all yet either. Cheer up!

And me neither, in fact it's the other way around with my negativity in F1WRS

eurobrun wrote:The more I think about it there is no reason in me being here. I have managed to piss off pretty much the whole forum and it's not like I have contributed anything useful anyway. Not sure whether to leave the forum for a while or not.

Nah mate, don't leave you haven't managed to piss me off yet, and you post more sensible and insightful things than a number of the members on this forum (myself included)

I think Horner's biggest lie is to say that Vergne or Ricciardo have a shot at a Red Bull seat for 2014.

CarlosFerreira wrote:I think Horner's biggest lie is to say that Vergne or Ricciardo have a shot at a Red Bull seat for 2014.

did he really say that?

lgaquino wrote:

CarlosFerreira wrote:I think Horner's biggest lie is to say that Vergne or Ricciardo have a shot at a Red Bull seat for 2014.

did he really say that?

I'm pretty sure he did...

takagi_for_the_win wrote:Nah mate, don't leave you haven't managed to piss me off yet, and you post more sensible and insightful things than a number of the members on this forum (myself included)

I concur.

eurobrun wrote:The more I think about it there is no reason in me being here. I have managed to piss off pretty much the whole forum and it's not like I have contributed anything useful anyway. Not sure whether to leave the forum for a while or not.

Seriously mate, don't be so negative about yourself I don't got much reason either to be here, except for the reason that i want to be here, and that's the best reason there is. I'm absolutely sure that you love being here!

eurobrun wrote:The more I think about it there is no reason in me being here. I have managed to piss off pretty much the whole forum and it's not like I have contributed anything useful anyway. Not sure whether to leave the forum for a while or not.

You shouldn't take an internet forum so seriously! (or yourself for that matter... ) I mean, if you're as down as you appear to be about a place where people type silly things about bad racing drivers, I can't imagine what you'd be like with a real life problem.

F1 should kill DRS. DRS makes passing too easy.

go_Rubens wrote:F1 should kill DRS. DRS makes passing too easy.

DRS gets such a bad press, I like it, there's still an element of skill to it. Besides, I find people who sit there saying stuff like, "DRS is the antichrist" are the kind of wanna be purists that annoy everyone.

pasta_maldonado wrote:

go_Rubens wrote:F1 should kill DRS. DRS makes passing too easy.

DRS gets such a bad press, I like it, there's still an element of skill to it. Besides, I find people who sit there saying stuff like, "DRS is the antichrist" are the kind of wanna be purists that annoy everyone.

I personally think DRS makes the racing too artificial. There may be a skill element, but passing is too artificial and people claim passing is too easy (well, Vettel does anyway.)

pasta_maldonado wrote:

go_Rubens wrote:F1 should kill DRS. DRS makes passing too easy.

DRS gets such a bad press, I like it, there's still an element of skill to it. Besides, I find people who sit there saying stuff like, "DRS is the antichrist" are the kind of wanna be purists that annoy everyone.

im not a total purist like i dont think kers is the end of all things for example. i dont like all gimmicks though like drs, because passing should be at least kind of a challenge (not asking for trulli trains but come on make it a slight risk). maybe if they made it another elemnt of strategy, like if drs could only be used x times a race like puh to pass from inycar, i might go for that

The number of pure DRS passes so far seen on camera this season is extremely low with Mercedes swapping places in Malaysia about the only really obvious example.

The only DRS pass in Melbourne with cars on comparable tire wear was Vettel passing Sutil;and that was a dive bomb! Not what you would call an easy pass at all.

Personally I feel tires designed to wear excessively is worse, but then you only need to look at the 2010 Malaysian Grandprix where Hamilton was stuck behind Sutil for lap after lap to realise that F1 is much better when cars can actually pass each other.

I don't care; I take whatever overtaking I can get having watched F1 in an era where it was incredibly difficult to do so.

The very point of it is to be artificial; the sport wasn't working with "pure" racing so it took measures to try and put some overtaking in. Now that they have, people still complain.

It's all very well people saying DRS makes passing "too easy", but there's plenty of examples where it's not been enough.

Ataxia [BacLettNinj] wrote:I don't care; I take whatever overtaking I can get having watched F1 in an era where it was incredibly difficult to do so.

The very point of it is to be artificial; the sport wasn't working with "pure" racing so it took measures to try and put some overtaking in. Now that they have, people still complain.

It's all very well people saying DRS makes passing "too easy", but there's plenty of examples where it's not been enough.

i kind of liked how it was difficult to overtake though. sure sometimes seeing a driver try again and again and keep failing at the overtake in exactly the same way every time was frustrating, bit it made the battles more exciting which is what i watch f1 for and also it made a drivers quali skills actually make a difference for the results sometimes.

pasta_maldonado wrote:

go_Rubens wrote:F1 should kill DRS. DRS makes passing too easy.

DRS gets such a bad press, I like it, there's still an element of skill to it. Besides, I find people who sit there saying stuff like, "DRS is the antichrist" are the kind of wanna be purists that annoy everyone.

This. Having watched F1 during the grooved tyres and refuelling era, which was maligned for a total lack of overtaking action (quite rightly too, back then you'd have been lucky to get 10 overtakes per race), these 'purists' were loudly clamouring for a return to no-refuelling and slick tyres. Thus, in 2009, they got their wish. F1 was how the "purists" wanted it, overtaking would be rife, and nobody's feet smell. In '09, everyone was getting over the feel-good factor of Brawn, and the fact that those lovable upstarts at Red Bull were taking the fight to the established order, so no-one noticed that the racing, while better, was still lacking in overtakes. Luckily, we had 2010, which went and proved that, no matter what, without the gimmicks of DRS and unpredictable tyres, overtaking would still be rare. In 2011, we got DRS and dodgy tyres, overtakes everywhere, everyone happy, especially those who wanted the changes to encourage overtaking. Or not. It would appear that there is no pleasing some people, and this is one of the reasons why I can't stand F1 fans who view the past through rose-tinted spectacles. Thats it, rant over

I like the concept of DRS. I just wished the Championship leader wasn't allowed to use it. Or better, that Vettel was banned from using it whenever he is in the top 10. It's all very nice releasing the fast cars, but I resent that it releases the fastest car.

CarlosFerreira wrote:I like the concept of DRS. I just wished the Championship leader wasn't allowed to use it. Or better, that Vettel was banned from using it whenever he is in the top 10. It's all very nice releasing the fast cars, but I resent that it releases the fastest car.

How about none of the top 5 qualifiers can use it

WeirdKerr wrote:

CarlosFerreira wrote:I like the concept of DRS. I just wished the Championship leader wasn't allowed to use it. Or better, that Vettel was banned from using it whenever he is in the top 10. It's all very nice releasing the fast cars, but I resent that it releases the fastest car.

How about none of the top 5 qualifiers can use it

...no-one would seta time in Q3 then

Overall the past couple of seasons have seen excellent racing, a good deal of variety, but ultimately ended up with the best driver-car combinations at the top of the tables come season end

I really do not want to see a return to the Schumacher borefests of the early 2000's

DG

Divina_Galica wrote:

WeirdKerr wrote:

CarlosFerreira wrote:I like the concept of DRS. I just wished the Championship leader wasn't allowed to use it. Or better, that Vettel was banned from using it whenever he is in the top 10. It's all very nice releasing the fast cars, but I resent that it releases the fastest car.

How about none of the top 5 qualifiers can use it

...no-one would set a time in Q3 then

How about just the top-5 in the race then (that being, the top-5 at any given moment). Actually, it would not work, saying the top-five qualifiers can't use it in qualifying. How would you know which five couldn't use it in qualifying until it was too late? So it is implied in race conditions...

dr-baker wrote:How about just the top-5 in the race then (that being, the top-5 at any given moment). Actually, it would not work, saying the top-five qualifiers can't use it in qualifying. How would you know which five couldn't use it in qualifying until it was too late? So it is implied in race conditions...

I am not in favour of these gimmicks. DRS might help, artificially, overtaking but I think preventing several cars from using it can translate in artificial results which is not the point of motorsport, me thinks.

I don't understand why people are already writing off Perez as an also-ran, saying that he's shite. It's not his fault McLaren have produced such an awful car, and he certainly isn't just a "crap pay-driver". Have some patience people, we've only had two races so far.

My idea, have it so you can only use DRS on the prime tyre in race conditions. That would even it up with regards to the gap in pace between the tyres and start to see risk/reward race strategies, do you gun for glory on the option nd hope to build a gap before DRS is activated, or sit and wait for the track temperature to come to you on the prime with DRS?

Divina_Galica wrote:Overall the past couple of seasons have seen excellent racing, a good deal of variety, but ultimately ended up with the best driver-car combinations at the top of the tables come season end

I really do not want to see a return to the Schumacher borefests of the early 2000's

DG

Might want to re-read what you've written there. Every year the best driver/car combination wins the championship!

Sometimes I think people don't actually know what they're asking for when they criticise modern F1.

East Londoner wrote:I don't understand why people are already writing off Perez as an also-ran, saying that he's shite. It's not his fault McLaren have produced such an awful car, and he certainly isn't just a "crap pay-driver". Have some patience people, we've only had two races so far.

Probably because he hasn't had a good race since McLaren announced him as their driver.

AndreaModa wrote:Sometimes I think people don't actually know what they're asking for when they criticise modern F1.

Totally agree.

AndreaModa wrote:Sometimes I think people don't actually know what they're asking for when they criticise modern F1.

Agree with you 100%

East Londoner wrote:I don't understand why people are already writing off Perez as an also-ran, saying that he's shite. It's not his fault McLaren have produced such an awful car, and he certainly isn't just a "crap pay-driver". Have some patience people, we've only had two races so far.

You are right. I, for instance, still need to see 3 or 4 more races before I can start calling him the new Heikki Kovalainen.

East Londoner wrote:I don't understand why people are already writing off Perez as an also-ran, saying that he's shite. It's not his fault McLaren have produced such an awful car, and he certainly isn't just a "crap pay-driver". Have some patience people, we've only had two races so far.

Bear in mind a lot of those people also criticised Ferrari for not replacing Massa with him...

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:

East Londoner wrote:I don't understand why people are already writing off Perez as an also-ran, saying that he's shite. It's not his fault McLaren have produced such an awful car, and he certainly isn't just a "crap pay-driver". Have some patience people, we've only had two races so far.

Bear in mind a lot of those people also criticised Ferrari for not replacing Massa with him...

To be fair, it is two different jobs with different requirements. And by the time that happened, many still thought that Perez was outperforming both machine and team-mate instead of giving credit to what a great car the C31 was.

cindrella wrote:Bear in mind a lot of those people also criticised Ferrari for not replacing Massa with him.

Hi spambot.

Interesting opinion there

Bear in mind a lot of those people also criticised Ferrari for not replacing Massa with him.

The problem with overtaking in the grooved tyres era was that is shifted focus to aerodynamic grip as tyres were less grippy. The idea was to reduce cornering speeds but teams beefed up the aero grip so much that it cancelled the desired effect. That same aero grip also created wake/turbulence behind the car that dirupted the airflow of the following car, and so in effect reduced it's grip. This happened so much that it made it impossible to line up an equal car for a pass.

Once the slicks were back in 2009, the wings were also changed to get rid of that turbulence and increase overtaking oportunities, and it worked. A bit. Quickly enough the blown diffusers were causing a similar problem. Thankfully they were banned.

DRS is a good little idea. Artificial yes, but better than KERS which can be used defensively as well. DRS can assist an overtake, but it then cedes the advantage to the car you just passed. If the FIA does anything that removes passing obstacles, then i'm all for it. Unequal machinery aside, overtaking is still a matter of skill and defending equally so. One thing i would hate to see is either the defender or the attacker having too much of an advantage. You could argue that DRS gives a big boost, but frankly it is cancelled out by the overtaken car getting the same chance to fight back, and also by the rev limiter. DRS boosts acceleration NOT top speeed.

I'm quite happy with F1 these days. The ugliness is currently the worst offence. That's pretty good considering all the lamentable aspects of the 1998-2009 era.

As for Schumacher and his bore-fests. That's a bit harsh. He worked very hard to get the damn 2002 world beater and the 2003 campaign was not so easy for him. 2004 was won pretty much in the first practise session, but can you fault Ferrari for making such a good car? If you want to blame for the borefests, blame the competition, they were all over the shop...

Sublime_FA11C wrote:DRS is a good little idea. Artificial yes, but better than KERS which can be used defensively as well. DRS can assist an overtake, but it then cedes the advantage to the car you just passed. If the FIA does anything that removes passing obstacles, then i'm all for it. Unequal machinery aside, overtaking is still a matter of skill and defending equally so. One thing i would hate to see is either the defender or the attacker having too much of an advantage. You could argue that DRS gives a big boost, but frankly it is cancelled out by the overtaken car getting the same chance to fight back, and also by the rev limiter. DRS boosts acceleration NOT top speeed.

I pretty much agree with everything else you said. But quickly on DRS, I think the main problem is the placement of the activation zone and the length of the DRS zone itself.
Imo it should be put in places you wouldn't normally get overtaking, rather than on the most obvious place.
For instance:
Both the back straight in Canada and the straight after Eau-Rouge are places you got overtaking. even in 1998-2008 era.
However, and naturally it can well be a bad example, the short-ish "straight" before the hairpin and after Pouhon could be used with DRS.
That could improve the show, I believe

East Londoner wrote:I don't understand why people are already writing off Perez as an also-ran, saying that he's shite. It's not his fault McLaren have produced such an awful car, and he certainly isn't just a "crap pay-driver". Have some patience people, we've only had two races so far.

I thought John Watson's "one and a half drivers" comment was especially unfair. So far this year he's brought it home in 9th, and in Oz he was out of the points but only two seconds behind Button. He's no Maldonado or Grosjean - given his experience he could be doing a lot worse. McLaren probably view him as a longer term investment.

I think John Watson has, sadly, reached the stage all former F1 drivers reach, where their opinions on the sport just become completely irrelevant.

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:I think John Watson has, sadly, reached the stage all former F1 drivers reach, where their opinions on the sport just become completely irrelevant.

I wouldn't say that, I mean John Watson knows what it's like to be half a driver at McLaren, he demonstrated that well enough.

I still don't like DRS, but I accept it. You probably remember me being very critical about DRS during the off-season, but after the first two races, I have to admit that I exaggerated. I understand the criticism against DRS, that it is artificial and sometimes makes passing too difficult, but I also understand people supporting DRS, since passing really was too difficult for a long time. In the last two races, there have been many overtakes which weren't supported by DRS. People saying DRS would kill racing are exaggerating, I think.

I hope Vandoorne defeats da Costa in FR 3.5

I am getting really tired of Autosports continued hyping of AF da C.

The last qualifying report for example had a paragraph and a half talking about da Costa taking P4 whilst, Sirtokin and Zanella in 2nd and 3rd were covered with a tag on sentence.

Shadaza wrote:I hope Vandoorne defeats da Costa in FR 3.5

I am getting really tired of Autosports continued hyping of AF da C.

The last qualifying report for example had a paragraph and a half talking about da Costa taking P4 whilst, Sirtokin and Zanella in 2nd and 3rd were covered with a tag on sentence.

The problem is, da Costa has the might of the Red Bull Racing Young Driver PR machine behind him for several years whereas drivers like Zanella don't (and Vandoorne only won support from McLaren's Young Driver program barely a month ago), so automatically he has the advantage that there are other parties that can hype him up on his behalf.
Equally, there is another odd quirk about FR 3.5 - before Bianchi was hired by Marussia this year, the last non Red Bull backed driver to graduate directly from FR 3.5 to Formula 1 was Robert Kubica, who went from there to his role as a BMW-Sauber test driver. FR 3.5 has become Red Bull's preferred driver training scheme for F1, so a promising talent associated with them is more likely to attract speculation about a potential move to F1 - particularly given that Red Bull expects a lot from its current drivers at Toro Rosso and has shown a willingness to hire and fire drivers at that team pretty rapidly.