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Re: Rantbox
Posted: 17 May 2013, 18:37
by mario
Benetton wrote:Pirelli changing the construction of the compounds is just wrong. The Lotus is designed with THESE tires in mind! You can't change the rules in the middle of the season just because they make 4 pit stops! bathplug all who have complained about the tires! Red Bullshit!
I would have to say that, to a certain extent, the question of changing the tyres is a little more ambiguous. Now, it cannot be denied that Red Bull are likely to profit considerably, although another outfit that may well benefit even more from the changes would be McLaren (there are suggestions that some of their problems come from them underestimating the stiffness of the sidewalls); that political pressure has set a rather damaging precedent and has provoked angry responses from both Lotus and Ferrari, especially the latter:
These are difficult times for people with poor memories. Maybe it’s because of the huge amount of information available today that people are too quick to talk, forgetting things that happened pretty much in the recent past. Or maybe the brain cells that control memory only operate selectively, depending on the results achieved on track by their owners.
[...]Today however, it seems one must almost feel ashamed for choosing a strategy that, as always for that matter, is aimed at getting the most out of the package one has available.
http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2013/05/17/f ... es-change/On the other hand, it has to be said that the nature of the way in which the tyres have failed this season does raise a few questions and, to a certain extent, provide justification for changes to be made on safety grounds. The problem is, it seems that this issue is inherently embedded into the construction of the tyres (the use of a more flexible tyre wall causing increased deformations and heating of the tyres, increasing the risk of delamination), so in addressing that issue they were always likely to move towards something closer to their 2012 tyres, something likely to appease Red Bull but potentially irritate others. It's also fair to say that, were it the case that Ferrari were in trouble instead, I imagine that we'd hear some bitter criticism from their quarter too - though whether they'd be applying as much political pressure as Mateschitz has been reportedly putting on Bernie is open to debate.
It's a difficult situation for Pirelli, and I do feel sorry for them - Red Bull's complaints, whilst cynically self interested and disruptive to the sport, do have an element of truth in them, and the way in which the press complaints have been whipped into an appropriate state of outrage by a combination of interested parties and the type of bitter older fan that wails about how the sport was always better in some rose tinted vision of the past has really started to hurt them.
Re: Rantbox
Posted: 17 May 2013, 21:53
by UncreativeUsername37
Re: Rantbox
Posted: 17 May 2013, 22:46
by dr-baker
UgncreativeUsergname wrote:Who designed the points system for the 1949 MotoGP season and what drugs were they on?
I hate it when people rant about points systems without explaining them and expect people to be able to empathise. If there were a link to explain without me having to go away and Google it just to find out what others are on about...
Re: Rantbox
Posted: 17 May 2013, 23:06
by Salamander
dr-baker wrote:UgncreativeUsergname wrote:Who designed the points system for the 1949 MotoGP season and what drugs were they on?
I hate it when people rant about points systems without explaining them and expect people to be able to empathise. If there were a link to explain without me having to go away and Google it just to find out what others are on about...
Alright, then, let me Google that for you. If you can't be bothered...
Re: Rantbox
Posted: 17 May 2013, 23:37
by UncreativeUsername37
dr-baker wrote:UgncreativeUsergname wrote:Who designed the points system for the 1949 MotoGP season and what drugs were they on?
I hate it when people rant about points systems without explaining them and expect people to be able to empathise. If there were a link to explain without me having to go away and Google it just to find out what others are on about...
The system is 10-8-7-6-5 with 1 for fastest lap.
10-8-7-6-5. The +2-+1-+1-+1 is all good, but the ratios are so messed up. First isn't worth enough compared to the other positions, second isn't worth enough, none of the top four are. Compare it to the 8-6-4-3-2 from 1950 F1, for instance. And the drop from 5 to 0 is ridiculous too.
Re: Rantbox
Posted: 17 May 2013, 23:42
by go_Rubens
UgncreativeUsergname wrote:dr-baker wrote:UgncreativeUsergname wrote:Who designed the points system for the 1949 MotoGP season and what drugs were they on?
I hate it when people rant about points systems without explaining them and expect people to be able to empathise. If there were a link to explain without me having to go away and Google it just to find out what others are on about...
The system is 10-8-7-6-5 with 1 for fastest lap.
10-8-7-6-5. The +2-+1-+1-+1 is all good, but the ratios are so messed up. First isn't worth enough compared to the other positions, second isn't worth enough, none of the top four are. Compare it to the 8-6-4-3-2 from 1950 F1, for instance. And the drop from 5 to 0 is ridiculous too.
I think that is why you asked what drugs they were on... Utterly ridiculous points system. Who thinks that is a good system?!
Re: Rantbox
Posted: 18 May 2013, 09:57
by mario
It does seem like the most logical situation (i.e. only allowing the changes that should rectify the issue of tyre delaminations but not doing anything that should alter the degradation properties of the tyres), though I can imagine that Red Bull will be disappointed that they haven't been able to force through the changes they would have preferred to see.
Re: Rantbox
Posted: 23 May 2013, 12:13
by dinizintheoven
go_Rubens wrote:I think that is why you asked what drugs they were on... Utterly ridiculous points system. Who thinks that is a good system?!
Leslie Graham, maybe?
Re: Rantbox
Posted: 24 May 2013, 01:34
by go_Rubens
I'm quoting myself in the Magical Monaco GP Thread:
go_Rubens in the Magical Monaco GP Thread wrote:God damn, the tyres are supposed to be a variable in the racing, so if Red Bull aren't on top because of tyres, suck it up and deal with it! With Vettel and Red Bull's complaining, they're becoming a bunch of useless toolbags at the moment wanting things their way when the only way to get things their way right now is to work on the car to be better suited to the tyres. You don't bathplugging ask for the tyres to be changed in your god damn favor! Bathplug off and deal with the shite tyres Pirelli give you!
In conclusion, deal with the tyres they give you and work for the title instead of asking to have your way to get a title. F*** Red Bull.
To sum it all up:
Jocke1 wrote:that
Re: Rantbox
Posted: 24 May 2013, 09:15
by CarlosFerreira
I am pretty sure Red Bull and Vettel will get on top of the 2013 tyres. I look forward to them winning 4 races in a row, and all the fans start shouting at Pirelli to change the tyres.
Re: Rantbox
Posted: 24 May 2013, 09:18
by Salamander
CarlosFerreira wrote:I am pretty sure Red Bull and Vettel will get on top of the 2013 tyres. I look forward to them winning 4 races in a row, and all the fans start shouting at Pirelli to change the tyres.
Yup.
Re: Rantbox
Posted: 24 May 2013, 09:38
by DanielPT
CarlosFerreira wrote:I am pretty sure Red Bull and Vettel will get on top of the 2013 tyres. I look forward to them winning 4 races in a row, and all the fans start shouting at Pirelli to change the tyres.
Not all fans. Some fans. Those who complained that Vettel won all the time and are now shouting for Pirelli to change the tyres, falling right into the Whine Bull agenda. Actually, those who complain all the time.
Re: Rantbox
Posted: 24 May 2013, 12:00
by CoopsII
CarlosFerreira wrote:I am pretty sure Red Bull and Vettel will get on top of the 2013 tyres. I look forward to them winning 4 races in a row, and all the fans start shouting at Pirelli to change the tyres.
I dont think that backlash would happen unless there was any suggestion that the tires had been altered.
Re: Rantbox
Posted: 25 May 2013, 05:06
by mario
go_Rubens wrote:I'm quoting myself in the Magical Monaco GP Thread:
go_Rubens in the Magical Monaco GP Thread wrote:God damn, the tyres are supposed to be a variable in the racing, so if Red Bull aren't on top because of tyres, suck it up and deal with it! With Vettel and Red Bull's complaining, they're becoming a bunch of useless toolbags at the moment wanting things their way when the only way to get things their way right now is to work on the car to be better suited to the tyres. You don't bathplugging ask for the tyres to be changed in your god damn favor! Bathplug off and deal with the shite tyres Pirelli give you!
In conclusion, deal with the tyres they give you and work for the title instead of asking to have your way to get a title. F*** Red Bull.
To sum it all up:
Jocke1 wrote:that
It now looks like the situation with Pirelli and F1 is rapidly souring - Pirelli are now getting increasingly agitated as, although Bernie seems to have agreed terms with Pirelli for a post 2013 contract, the FIA has not yet confirmed when, or even if, it will put the tyre contract out to tender, whilst some of the teams are currently refusing to sign their separate contracts with Pirelli as they are unhappy with the terms of the deal.
Given how badly the relationship is going, Pirelli have said that, given that they are supposed to have finalised the design of the 2014 spec tyres by September 1st, that if the teams and FIA do not shortly make a decision, they will be unable to provide tyres in time and may walk out on the sport altogether.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/107609
Re: Rantbox
Posted: 25 May 2013, 09:36
by andrew2209
Someone needs to make a decision on the tyres quickly. We can't have a situation where the FIA are looking for a tyre supplier with little preparation time, as this could make the current tyre issues look like a minor inconvience.
Also, who would take over from Pirelli?
Re: Rantbox
Posted: 25 May 2013, 17:34
by dr-baker
andrew2209 wrote:Someone needs to make a decision on the tyres quickly. We can't have a situation where the FIA are looking for a tyre supplier with little preparation time, as this could make the current tyre issues look like a minor inconvience.
Also, who would take over from Pirelli?
The WRC's 2nd tyre manufacturer, DMACK?
Re: Rantbox
Posted: 25 May 2013, 17:49
by Salamander
andrew2209 wrote:Also, who would take over from Pirelli?
Clearly Goodride.
Re: Rantbox
Posted: 26 May 2013, 16:50
by rachel1990
Red Bull are the most childish team ever
http://www.planetf1.com/news/3213/87361 ... cedes-TestOh grow up you beat both Lotus and Ferrari today!
Re: Rantbox
Posted: 26 May 2013, 17:49
by Aerospeed
This is worth expanding on - firstly, why was the test held in the first place, and secondly, could this have an effect on the race result at all? I doubt Mercedes would be DSQ'd due to this but if this is indeed illegal, I see hefty fines on the way.
Re: Rantbox
Posted: 26 May 2013, 17:52
by dr-baker
JeremyMcClean wrote:This is worth expanding on - firstly, why was the test held in the first place, and secondly, could this have an effect on the race result at all? I doubt Mercedes would be DSQ'd due to this but
if this is indeed illegal, I see hefty fines on the way.
For Pirelli, Mercedes, or both?
Re: Rantbox
Posted: 26 May 2013, 17:53
by Aerospeed
dr-baker wrote:JeremyMcClean wrote:This is worth expanding on - firstly, why was the test held in the first place, and secondly, could this have an effect on the race result at all? I doubt Mercedes would be DSQ'd due to this but
if this is indeed illegal, I see hefty fines on the way.
For Pirelli, Mercedes, or both?
Merc for sure, Pirelli too if they didn't have a gun pointed towards their heads.
Re: Rantbox
Posted: 26 May 2013, 18:14
by Ataxia
JeremyMcClean wrote:This is worth expanding on - firstly, why was the test held in the first place, and secondly, could this have an effect on the race result at all? I doubt Mercedes would be DSQ'd due to this but if this is indeed illegal, I see hefty fines on the way.
I don't see why Pirelli should be at liberty to divulge. The tests were for their own purposes, not for Mercedes.
As the article says, a few other teams have been called upon to do so in the past. Judging by the fact that these haven't been elaborated on, I assume they've flown under the radar too. Why should this one test be any different?
Re: Rantbox
Posted: 26 May 2013, 19:00
by mario
andrew2209 wrote:Someone needs to make a decision on the tyres quickly. We can't have a situation where the FIA are looking for a tyre supplier with little preparation time, as this could make the current tyre issues look like a minor inconvience.
Also, who would take over from Pirelli?
Hankook have indicated that they were approached by Bernie as a possible tyre supplier back in 2011, but, although they were keen, they lacked the resources to come up with a suitable tyre in the timeframe (8 months) and decided to turn down the contract instead. There have been a few parties wondering if the reason why Pirelli are being kept on tenderhooks over a future contract is because CVC want an Asian tyre manufacturer as a way of generating interest in the sport in Asia (although Bernie is reported to have agreed an extension of terms, with the FIA and some of the teams reportedly stringing out negotiations instead).
Ataxia wrote:JeremyMcClean wrote:This is worth expanding on - firstly, why was the test held in the first place, and secondly, could this have an effect on the race result at all? I doubt Mercedes would be DSQ'd due to this but if this is indeed illegal, I see hefty fines on the way.
I don't see why Pirelli should be at liberty to divulge. The tests were for their own purposes, not for Mercedes.
As the article says, a few other teams have been called upon to do so in the past. Judging by the fact that these haven't been elaborated on, I assume they've flown under the radar too. Why should this one test be any different?
Ferrari, who are also protesting against this test, have given a valid reason - when they carried out a test for Pirelli, it was with their 2011 car and they are citing the clause in the sporting regulations that dictates that any such test can only take place with a car that is at least two years old. It is not the test itself that they are complaining about, but the fact that Mercedes used their current car, which they feel is against the regulations.
Re: Rantbox
Posted: 26 May 2013, 19:05
by AndreaModa
I am absolutely livid with some of the behaviour I've seen on the forum today. Some of the posts have been frankly embarrassing. I'm talking about comments relating to a number of drivers who have had incidents in Monaco this afternoon. Chilton, Grosjean and Perez specifically.
We're supposed to be a civil, well-mannered forum that celebrates all forms of success up and down the grid, not delightfully lambaste and ridicule world class drivers.
I don't come onto the forum after a race to read a torrent of uninformed horsesh*t, I come to read informed opinions on how the race unfolded and to have interesting debates on particular aspects of it. If that's no longer possible here then I shan't bother, I'll pop into the PMMF to keep my interests there ticking over, and that's it.
It wouldn't surprise me if I'm not the only one thinking this.
Re: Rantbox
Posted: 26 May 2013, 19:07
by andrew2209
For world-class drivers, some of the incidents were a little bit silly.
Also, how difficult would it be to stop a barrier from unfurling across the track. If that had happened with the front 2 drivers, it could've been a calamity.
Re: Rantbox
Posted: 26 May 2013, 22:18
by Ataxia
AndreaModa wrote:I am absolutely livid with some of the behaviour I've seen on the forum today. Some of the posts have been frankly embarrassing. I'm talking about comments relating to a number of drivers who have had incidents in Monaco this afternoon. Chilton, Grosjean and Perez specifically.
We're supposed to be a civil, well-mannered forum that celebrates all forms of success up and down the grid, not delightfully lambaste and ridicule world class drivers.
I don't come onto the forum after a race to read a torrent of uninformed horsesh*t, I come to read informed opinions on how the race unfolded and to have interesting debates on particular aspects of it. If that's no longer possible here then I shan't bother, I'll pop into the PMMF to keep my interests there ticking over, and that's it.
It wouldn't surprise me if I'm not the only one thinking this.
You're right, you're not.
Seriously, people. I have said time and time again, "brain before fingers". Unfortunately, we still get the snap posts that add absolutely nothing to the conversation or are unnecessarily demeaning to various individuals.
Please think before you post. I know that my words will get buried in amongst various posts in this thread, and the ones who do read it will most likely be the members of this forum who are less erratic in their posting content. And no, I'm not pretending I'm the god-of-useful-content (because I can be prone to a bit of silliness every now and again), but I'd have thought topical, thoughtful posting would be common sense. Consider your fellow members, people.
Thank you.
Re: Rantbox
Posted: 26 May 2013, 22:39
by shinji
Sure why do ye think I barely post anymore? I'm not suggesting I contributed to a higher standard of posting on the past, but there's definitely been a serious decline, particularly recently. Comments for the sake of comments, rather than adding to the discussion.
Having said that, I haven't bothered reading what prompted AndreaModa's rant, so I probably don't know what I'm taking about really.
Re: Rantbox
Posted: 26 May 2013, 22:43
by Londoner
Can't we all just get along without ranting at each other? We never used to have this problem.
Re: Rantbox
Posted: 26 May 2013, 23:28
by pasta_maldonado
shinji wrote:Sure why do ye think I barely post anymore? I'm not suggesting I contributed to a higher standard of posting on the past, but there's definitely been a serious decline, particularly recently. Comments for the sake of comments, rather than adding to the discussion.
Having said that, I haven't bothered reading what prompted AndreaModa's rant, so I probably don't know what I'm taking about really.
I missed reading the Moanco thread live as I hadn't seen the race until an hour ago, but I'm disappointed there's cause for concern. Very disappointed. This is not Autosport forums. If you want to pointlessly scathe other drivers, go there and be a child, not here. There's no place for argumetns that are nto at least attempted to be backed up by any reason here (unless of course it's a joke).
C'mon guys. A few newer members, and existing ones, need to think a bit more, as Ataxia said.
Re: Rantbox
Posted: 26 May 2013, 23:33
by AndreaModa
shinji wrote:Sure why do ye think I barely post anymore? I'm not suggesting I contributed to a higher standard of posting on the past, but there's definitely been a serious decline, particularly recently. Comments for the sake of comments, rather than adding to the discussion.
Having said that, I haven't bothered reading what prompted AndreaModa's rant, so I probably don't know what I'm taking about really.
It's not one specific comment, or even a tirade at a particular driver. It's just the consistent rubbish that seems to be spouted these days. And not even DonTirri-style "pointed opinions", just really, really dumb comments that I'd expect from people who know little or nothing about F1, and don't care about it either.
I'm not going to name names or provide examples. Those reading this will know if they've written rubbish or not. I just want them to learn and act on that and for christ sake in future think a bit, as Ataxia said, and at least try and contribute something meaningful to the conversation.
Re: Rantbox
Posted: 26 May 2013, 23:50
by Klon
I personally think the issue is mostly emotions which tend to run high during the race. Maybe a solution would be to close the thread for the actual Grand Prix in a 48-hour period from shortly before qualifying until a day has passed after the end of the race. That would give everyone a chance to get their jimmies unrustled again.
Re: Rantbox
Posted: 27 May 2013, 07:08
by RonDenisDeletraz
It is so depressing knowing that the state of this forum is mostly my fault. There are four members (me being one of them) who are usually responsible for causing all this shite. I really wish I was less of an idiot but it is too late as my reputation is destroyed beyond repair.
Re: Rantbox
Posted: 27 May 2013, 08:10
by AdrianSutil
eurobrun wrote:It is so depressing knowing that the state of this forum is mostly my fault. There are four members (me being one of them) who are usually responsible for causing all this shite. I really wish I was less of an idiot but it is too late as my reputation is destroyed beyond repair.
Listen young lad, I've been biting my tongue for months over this sort of stuff but I've had enough now. Maybe it's because of what I've recently gone through, but you've gotta get your arse out of the gutter and stop thinking like this.
Now I can't remember exactly how old you are but my guess is around 10/11? If so, the typical growing-up anxiety is starting to creep in. You've gotta top thinking your worthless and mean nothing to anything and anyone. Time and time again, people on here actually reply telling you your not that bad and you actually contribute to the forums. I for one, am pleasantly surprised to see your history in F1 is very good in general discussions, so things like this is a good thing for the forum.
Now, in regards to your 'certain members hate me' stuff, just get over it. I know you've had your problems with Stramala but think about it, HE'S THE OTHER SIDE OF THE FRIGGING WORLD KID!!! What's the point in raging and reacting to someone you're never going to personally meet? Life is too short to bitch and complain so grow a pair and man up.
This may seen a bit of a rant towards you and if you see it that way then tough. I've seen previous members go for the 'aww Eurobrun your alright' approach and you still put up posts like this, so maybe it's time someone kicked you up the arse. Your a good kid, whose posts actually contribute to a discussion just as much as the next full-time member, so stop whoring for sympathy. You think you've had problems? Wanna swap the last 3 months with me?! Grow up or get out lad.
Re: Rantbox
Posted: 27 May 2013, 08:18
by RonDenisDeletraz
You completely missed the point of that post. It was more an apology that anything else.
Re: Rantbox
Posted: 27 May 2013, 08:33
by Alextrax52
eurobrun wrote:It is so depressing knowing that the state of this forum is mostly my fault. There are four members (me being one of them) who are usually responsible for causing all this shite. I really wish I was less of an idiot but it is too late as my reputation is destroyed beyond repair.
Eurobrun it is Okay. I too feel as if i triggered AndreaModa's rant about yesterday but i've been subject to something like this before and you just need to get over it and realize that at the end of the day you are a great addition to the F1 Rejects Forum and everyone's opinion matters. As East Londoner said we should all stick together and get on well. And yes there will be the odd falling out but that's life and we always get it sorted out.
Re: Rantbox
Posted: 27 May 2013, 09:25
by AdrianSutil
eurobrun wrote:You completely missed the point of that post. It was more an apology that anything else.
And you missed my point too. Stop feeling sorry for yourself. What exactly are you apologising for? And why do you feel the need to keep doing it? I dont understand it. Just be yourself and not worry about what other people think.
Re: Rantbox
Posted: 27 May 2013, 09:56
by Shizuka
To drive away the topic a little from the current things, I have three questions.
1. Why can't Red Bull (or mainly Marko, Mateschitz and Horner) just shut up and focus on racing? Sauber sucks (compared to last year, they do) and you don't keep hearing bitching from them - they just try to get on with the job they face.
2. Will di Resta EVER try to stop being whiny? He ended up scoring points at Monaco of all places. Can't he just admit that he messed it up in qualifying?
3. Am I the only one who thinks Chilton's move yesterday was on par with Ide's from Imola 06?
Re: Rantbox
Posted: 27 May 2013, 09:59
by andrew2209
Shizuka wrote:3. Am I the only one who thinks Chilton's move yesterday was on par with Ide's from Imola 06?
It's quite close. there was no need for Chilton to cut across Maldonado like that. If Maldonado was going faster, he could've hit the wall with the front off the ground.
Re: Rantbox
Posted: 27 May 2013, 10:52
by DanielPT
Shizuka wrote:
1. Why can't Red Bull (or mainly Marko, Mateschitz and Horner) just shut up and focus on racing? Sauber sucks (compared to last year, they do) and you don't keep hearing bitching from them - they just try to get on with the job they face.
Oh, Sauber complain, yes, but in the myriad of protests coming from Whine Bull, theirs get drown in that sea of (mis)information. I remember reading a few weeks ago that they also protested about tyres in an article that only mentioned that in order to be able to say 'Whine Bull and most of the other teams'.
Re: Rantbox
Posted: 27 May 2013, 11:05
by mario
andrew2209 wrote:Shizuka wrote:3. Am I the only one who thinks Chilton's move yesterday was on par with Ide's from Imola 06?
It's quite close. there was no need for Chilton to cut across Maldonado like that. If Maldonado was going faster, he could've hit the wall with the front off the ground.
Chilton's defence is that the accident was partially caused by Gutierrez pushing him off track earlier - he claims that Gutierrez had lunged down the inside of him at the chicane and gone in so hot that he forced Chilton to cut the chicane in order to avoid him. Because he'd had to slow down more than usual across the bumps in that corner in order to rejoin the track, that was why Maldonado ended up alongside him at the next corner, where he mistakenly thought that Maldonado was slightly further back than he actually was and clipped his front wing.
http://www.f1technical.net/news/18442?s ... e42652fd24DanielPT wrote:Shizuka wrote:
1. Why can't Red Bull (or mainly Marko, Mateschitz and Horner) just shut up and focus on racing? Sauber sucks (compared to last year, they do) and you don't keep hearing bitching from them - they just try to get on with the job they face.
Oh, Sauber complain, yes, but in the myriad of protests coming from Whine Bull, theirs get drown in that sea of (mis)information. I remember reading a few weeks ago that they also protested about tyres in an article that only mentioned that in order to be able to say 'Whine Bull and most of the other teams'.
Sauber's complaint, though, is different to that of Red Bull - their complaint is about the relative quality of the wind tunnel scale tyres that were provided to them rather than the race tyres (they say that the tyres Pirelli supplied to them did not accurately reflect the flexibility of the sidewalls of the full scale tyres and has compromised the design of their diffuser due to greater than anticipated tyre squirt issues). McLaren's tyre complaints are also similar to Sauber, in that they are unhappier about the wind tunnel tyres rather than the actual race tyres.