Grand Prix Rejects

dr-baker wrote: ↑30 Jul 2024, 19:12

Row Man Gross-Gene wrote: ↑30 Jul 2024, 17:55

dr-baker wrote: ↑30 Jul 2024, 17:35

It's odd, it was immediately before his Ferrari stint but it seems as memorable as Villeneuve driving for Sauber...

It's weird, to me, that you think that, because it was his Renault season that I'd forgotten about, I thought his McLaren seasons were more memorable.

Either way, I think his Toro Rosso days and his Ferrari days are more memorable than his days at Renault or McLaren.

For sure yes, TR put him on the map and Ferrari gave him his first wins. Still think it's a mistake for Red Bull not to sign him for next year.

Row Man Gross-Gene wrote: ↑30 Jul 2024, 19:49
For sure yes, TR put him on the map and Ferrari gave him his first wins. Still think it's a mistake for Red Bull not to sign him for next year.

It would be subpar for Sainz to be doing worse in the No. 2 Red Bull than Perez is currently doing.

dr-baker wrote: ↑30 Jul 2024, 21:19

Row Man Gross-Gene wrote: ↑30 Jul 2024, 19:49
For sure yes, TR put him on the map and Ferrari gave him his first wins. Still think it's a mistake for Red Bull not to sign him for next year.

It would be subpar for Sainz to be doing worse in the No. 2 Red Bull than Perez is currently doing.

Do you think he would do worse than Perez?

Row Man Gross-Gene wrote: ↑31 Jul 2024, 02:38

dr-baker wrote: ↑30 Jul 2024, 21:19

Row Man Gross-Gene wrote: ↑30 Jul 2024, 19:49
For sure yes, TR put him on the map and Ferrari gave him his first wins. Still think it's a mistake for Red Bull not to sign him for next year.

It would be subpar for Sainz to be doing worse in the No. 2 Red Bull than Perez is currently doing.

Do you think he would do worse than Perez?

No, I was trying to say the opposite. I reckon he would be underperforming significantly if he were performing as Perez is doing.

Just wonder if Sainz to Williams is a co-ordinated back-up plan with Mercedes in case Antonelli, the new golden child, proves to be a dud?

If Antonelli does not start performing at a decent level, then a quick switcheroo (thanks DR) and all will be right with the world.

Meanwhile, over at Red Bull, what are they thinking? Do they really believe that Sainz would not substantialy out-perform Perez? And if not Perez for 2025 then who?

Pretty much the same at Aston Martin. Sainz would surely be a better long-term prospect than Alonso and would easily out-perform Stroll.

F1 is always so weird. We have four very competetive teams who have infinite amounts of money for driver salaries, and Aston Martin though less competetive also have loadsmoney, yet a driver of Sainz' obvious talent is off to a back-marker (with all due respect to Williams).

Even James Vowles says so: www.bbc.co.uk/sport/articles/c87r64r0vd5o

dr-baker wrote: ↑31 Jul 2024, 06:18

Row Man Gross-Gene wrote: ↑31 Jul 2024, 02:38

dr-baker wrote: ↑30 Jul 2024, 21:19

It would be subpar for Sainz to be doing worse in the No. 2 Red Bull than Perez is currently doing.

Do you think he would do worse than Perez?

No, I was trying to say the opposite. I reckon he would be underperforming significantly if he were performing as Perez is doing.

Yeah, I get it. I agree. And honestly, if the issue keeping him out is the fact that his dad doesn't get along with Jos, Horner should just hire someone to walk around with a curtain to keep them from seeing each other, because they would be a quality driver pairing.

IceG wrote: ↑31 Jul 2024, 07:57 Just wonder if Sainz to Williams is a co-ordinated back-up plan with Mercedes in case Antonelli, the new golden child, proves to be a dud?

If Antonelli does not start performing at a decent level, then a quick switcheroo (thanks DR) and all will be right with the world.

Meanwhile, over at Red Bull, what are they thinking? Do they really believe that Sainz would not substantialy out-perform Perez? And if not Perez for 2025 then who?

Pretty much the same at Aston Martin. Sainz would surely be a better long-term prospect than Alonso and would easily out-perform Stroll.

F1 is always so weird. We have four very competetive teams who have infinite amounts of money for driver salaries, and Aston Martin though less competetive also have loadsmoney, yet a driver of Sainz' obvious talent is off to a back-marker (with all due respect to Williams).

Even James Vowles says so: www.bbc.co.uk/sport/articles/c87r64r0vd5o

It sounds like Red Bull might now have more to think about than that, as it's just been announced that Wheatley is leaving them at the end of the year to take up the role of team principal at Audi at the start of 2026 (he will apparently have a year of gardening leave in 2025).

mario wrote: ↑01 Aug 2024, 14:19

IceG wrote: ↑31 Jul 2024, 07:57 Just wonder if Sainz to Williams is a co-ordinated back-up plan with Mercedes in case Antonelli, the new golden child, proves to be a dud?

If Antonelli does not start performing at a decent level, then a quick switcheroo (thanks DR) and all will be right with the world.

Meanwhile, over at Red Bull, what are they thinking? Do they really believe that Sainz would not substantialy out-perform Perez? And if not Perez for 2025 then who?

Pretty much the same at Aston Martin. Sainz would surely be a better long-term prospect than Alonso and would easily out-perform Stroll.

F1 is always so weird. We have four very competetive teams who have infinite amounts of money for driver salaries, and Aston Martin though less competetive also have loadsmoney, yet a driver of Sainz' obvious talent is off to a back-marker (with all due respect to Williams).

Even James Vowles says so: www.bbc.co.uk/sport/articles/c87r64r0vd5o

It sounds like Red Bull might now have more to think about than that, as it's just been announced that Wheatley is leaving them at the end of the year to take up the role of team principal at Audi at the start of 2026 (he will apparently have a year of gardening leave in 2025).

It would be a great signing for Audi and a big loss for Red Bull who will be without Adrian Newey as well in 2025. Things haven't been great for RBR in recent weeks.

https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comme ... ?rdt=50193
If this is true then in 2025, there could be three Aussies entering a GP for the first time since 1977.

Har1MAS1415 wrote: ↑05 Aug 2024, 11:40 https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comme ... ?rdt=50193
If this is true then in 2025, there could be three Aussies entering a GP for the first time since 1977.

It would be great to see a few young drivers in F1. It is always exciting to see new blood.

Jarvis wrote: ↑11 Aug 2024, 12:47

Har1MAS1415 wrote: ↑05 Aug 2024, 11:40 https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comme ... ?rdt=50193
If this is true then in 2025, there could be three Aussies entering a GP for the first time since 1977.

It would be great to see a few young drivers in F1. It is always exciting to see new blood.

A few new faces are always much appreciated.

For the record, the last GP to have three Aussies present (with the intention of actually racing) was the 1977 British GP (Alan Jones, Vern Schuppan and Brian McGuire).

As far as I know.

Flavio Briatore is unsure about their line-up and thinks the change of driver isn't going to make any difference at the moment. This is what he said when he was asked about Gasly partner by the Formula For Success podcast:

“I don’t know yet. At this moment, the driver is not… At the moment you need to put the team together from a commercial side, technical side, management side."

“The driver makes no difference now.

“The difference be in 2006, 2007, 2008.”

Jarvis wrote: ↑17 Aug 2024, 21:06 Flavio Briatore is unsure about their line-up and thinks the change of driver isn't going to make any difference at the moment. This is what he said when he was asked about Gasly partner by the Formula For Success podcast:

“I don’t know yet. At this moment, the driver is not… At the moment you need to put the team together from a commercial side, technical side, management side."

“The driver makes no difference now.

“The difference be in 2006, 2007, 2008.”

Preferably with no race fixing or any other kind of cheating involved.

Remember, Renault were on the wrong side of a Spygate scandal of their own briefly, with McLaren being the accusers.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/formu ... ation.html

I suppose it makes sense to not prioritize the driver choice at the moment and focus on other aspects of the team, but looking between the lines it does kinda read as sour grapes at not getting Sainz and also reads as dismissive towards quite a few drivers.
But if you dont care about your drivers, dont expect them to stay and dont expect to get the best out of them. If I recall Enstone dont have a great driver retention record.

Ducktanian wrote: ↑20 Aug 2024, 08:53 I suppose it makes sense to not prioritize the driver choice at the moment and focus on other aspects of the team, but looking between the lines it does kinda read as sour grapes at not getting Sainz and also reads as dismissive towards quite a few drivers.
But if you dont care about your drivers, dont expect them to stay and dont expect to get the best out of them. If I recall Enstone dont have a great driver retention record.

Unless you're Schumacher or Alonso.

Talk about a vote of confidence....

F1 is returning this week after a gap of three weeks with the Dutch Grand Prix which is one of the most favorite races among the Formula One fans. It always offers a lot more than the racing action to its fans who travel in large numbers from all over Europe to the Zandvoort circuit. Like always, many trackside events and activities are happening throughout the weekend to keep the fans entertained even when no on-track action is happening.

Alpine signs Jack Doohan for 2025.

Who is the Williams reserve driver for this year?

Sargeant is surely now a liability for the team? Car and new parts written off by pure driver error.

Just stick Antonelli in there for the rest of the season. He can hardly do worse.

IceG wrote: ↑24 Aug 2024, 10:41 Who is the Williams reserve driver for this year?

Sargeant is surely now a liability for the team? Car and new parts written off by pure driver error.

Just stick Antonelli in there for the rest of the season. He can hardly do worse.

Considering Albon has just been DQ'd because the team's shiny new floor is illegal, I'd say the problems go much, much deeper than Logan. They start with the initials "J" and "V".......

Shows how far Sainz has fallen that this was his only (non-Alpine) choice.

J V..... Jacques Villeneuve?

Wallio wrote: ↑24 Aug 2024, 19:12 ]


Considering Albon has just been DQ'd because the team's shiny new floor is illegal, I'd say the problems go much, much deeper than Logan. They start with the initials "J" and "V".......

Shame about the qually DSQ. But it seems a bit strange. According to Autosport, the FIA didn't say how far out the measurements were. The Williams measurements claim that the floor was the right size, which the FIA accepted. Williams equally didn't doubt the calibration of the FIA measuring device...

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/albon ... /10647454/

MyHamsterRacedAnOnyx wrote: ↑24 Aug 2024, 19:35 J V..... Jacques Villeneuve?

James Vowles. While I know he was on the pit wall in the past (as a strategist, I believe?), he is so far over his head as a Team Principal.

At least Williams don't have the problems that Haas do,with bailiffs turning up to claim the Uralkali money and possibly seizing their assets or preventing them leaving Zandvoort, they might be at Monza without any cars. Which could prove rather a problem..

J V..... Jacques Villeneuve?
James Vowles. While I know he was on the pit wall in the past (as a strategist, I believe?), he is so far over his head as a Team Principal.

I did know it was Vowles. Just pondering that the ghost of Jacques is still creating mayhem a quarter of a century after he has left...

Wallio wrote: ↑24 Aug 2024, 20:02

MyHamsterRacedAnOnyx wrote: ↑24 Aug 2024, 19:35 J V..... Jacques Villeneuve?

James Vowles. While I know he was on the pit wall in the past (as a strategist, I believe?), he is so far over his head as a Team Principal.

I don't agree, Sainz would not be joining Williams if Vowles wasn't there. I think Vowles has a bit of a blind spot when it comes to the immediate term, because he seems to be entirely focused on the long-term future, but it's difficult to be over everything.

Besides, the actual amount the floor was over by was pretty small. And I don't think you can entirely blame a team principal for a discrepancy in the measuring tools...

Ataxia wrote: ↑25 Aug 2024, 10:44
I don't agree, Sainz would not be joining Williams if Vowles wasn't there. I think Vowles has a bit of a blind spot when it comes to the immediate term, because he seems to be entirely focused on the long-term future, but it's difficult to be over everything.

Besides, the actual amount the floor was over by was pretty small. And I don't think you can entirely blame a team principal for a discrepancy in the measuring tools...

This is just the latest faux pas. The whole beginning of the season Vowles couldn't do an interview without talking about spreadsheets. The car was late, overweight, and quite a bit slower than last year, all due to changes in car building that Vowles himself is eager to get the credit for.

They then park Sargent because they don't have a spare car, destroying what confidence he has left, but claim they want to keep him. They then file a waiver with the FIA to get Kimi Antonelli in a year early (it was Williams, NOT Mercedes).

They run the first 1/3 of the season without a spare car (far longer than even Alpine) because they prioritized upgrades over spare parts (another thing Vowles repeatedly took credit for.) While James was actively begging Sainz to sign during interviews. "Actively campaigning" Will Buxton put it. They do get Sainz, again, because no one else seriously wanted him, and Vowles proclaiming that Williams "has the strongest driver line up in F1 next season." a quote that drew audible laughs from the press.

They luck into a few points finishes (after throwing several away) and come back after the summer break to another written off chassis, and an illegal car. The team is once again banging the "we're going to replace Sargent drum" calling up MICK SCHUMACHER of all people, after JUST confirming Sargent for the rest of the season in that same interview where he made his idiotic comments about 2025.

Oh and Logan wrecking is irrelevant, because the car had on the upgrades too, which were illegal. So they saved the embarrassment of a double DQ. Not to mention, that the car is once again overweight, because Zandvoort was the first race all year Williams was at the minimum weight (per Sam Collins) but only WITH the upgrades, which included a small and lighter roll bar of all things.

Williams is an absolute dumpster fire this year, and a total embarrassment to the legacy of Sir Frank, not to mention the undisputed lock for ROTY. They just need to bring Rich Energy back into F1 to complete the look.

Wallio wrote: ↑25 Aug 2024, 11:01 Williams is an absolute dumpster fire this year, not to mention the undisputed lock for ROTY.

Do we just ignore the pointless Sauber team who take over a minute to do a pit-stop?

Wallio wrote: ↑25 Aug 2024, 11:01

Ataxia wrote: ↑25 Aug 2024, 10:44
I don't agree, Sainz would not be joining Williams if Vowles wasn't there. I think Vowles has a bit of a blind spot when it comes to the immediate term, because he seems to be entirely focused on the long-term future, but it's difficult to be over everything.

Besides, the actual amount the floor was over by was pretty small. And I don't think you can entirely blame a team principal for a discrepancy in the measuring tools...

This is just the latest faux pas. The whole beginning of the season Vowles couldn't do an interview without talking about spreadsheets. The car was late, overweight, and quite a bit slower than last year, all due to changes in car building that Vowles himself is eager to get the credit for.

They then park Sargent because they don't have a spare car, destroying what confidence he has left, but claim they want to keep him. They then file a waiver with the FIA to get Kimi Antonelli in a year early (it was Williams, NOT Mercedes).

They run the first 1/3 of the season without a spare car (far longer than even Alpine) because they prioritized upgrades over spare parts (another thing Vowles repeatedly took credit for.) While James was actively begging Sainz to sign during interviews. "Actively campaigning" Will Buxton put it. They do get Sainz, again, because no one else seriously wanted him, and Vowles proclaiming that Williams "has the strongest driver line up in F1 next season." a quote that drew audible laughs from the press.

They luck into a few points finishes (after throwing several away) and come back after the summer break to another written off chassis, and an illegal car. The team is once again banging the "we're going to replace Sargent drum" calling up MICK SCHUMACHER of all people, after JUST confirming Sargent for the rest of the season in that same interview where he made his idiotic comments about 2025.

Oh and Logan wrecking is irrelevant, because the car had on the upgrades too, which were illegal. So they saved the embarrassment of a double DQ. Not to mention, that the car is once again overweight, because Zandvoort was the first race all year Williams was at the minimum weight (per Sam Collins) but only WITH the upgrades, which included a small and lighter roll bar of all things.

Williams is an absolute dumpster fire this year, and a total embarrassment to the legacy of Sir Frank, not to mention the undisputed lock for ROTY. They just need to bring Rich Energy back into F1 to complete the look.

This is very funny. Very much of the "Williams made Logan look bad so I don't like Vowles" scriptbook. Just needs a "Logan's a great guy, a smart guy, real fast, I said he was the greatest but the team made him look bad, Vowles is sad..." to finish it with.

Remember that Frank/the Williams family presided over far worse years. I can dispute the rest, because I can see multiple mistruths in this.

EDIT: An addendum: I don't think Williams actually gives a solitary sh*t how it performs this season - screw up this year with processes, then you don't end up doing it if/when you're competitive.

Wow, who would have thought at the beginning of the season that someone other than Verstappen winning a race would actually be quite boring?

Norris really needs Piastri to do better, however - seven-point increments are not going to do it for him, whereas ten-point ones might *just* manage it.

With Perez in place, though, it look like McLaren's constructors' championship to lose even if they are currently still behind.

Ataxia wrote: ↑25 Aug 2024, 14:21

Wallio wrote: ↑25 Aug 2024, 11:01

Ataxia wrote: ↑25 Aug 2024, 10:44
I don't agree, Sainz would not be joining Williams if Vowles wasn't there. I think Vowles has a bit of a blind spot when it comes to the immediate term, because he seems to be entirely focused on the long-term future, but it's difficult to be over everything.

Besides, the actual amount the floor was over by was pretty small. And I don't think you can entirely blame a team principal for a discrepancy in the measuring tools...

This is just the latest faux pas. The whole beginning of the season Vowles couldn't do an interview without talking about spreadsheets. The car was late, overweight, and quite a bit slower than last year, all due to changes in car building that Vowles himself is eager to get the credit for.

They then park Sargent because they don't have a spare car, destroying what confidence he has left, but claim they want to keep him. They then file a waiver with the FIA to get Kimi Antonelli in a year early (it was Williams, NOT Mercedes).

They run the first 1/3 of the season without a spare car (far longer than even Alpine) because they prioritized upgrades over spare parts (another thing Vowles repeatedly took credit for.) While James was actively begging Sainz to sign during interviews. "Actively campaigning" Will Buxton put it. They do get Sainz, again, because no one else seriously wanted him, and Vowles proclaiming that Williams "has the strongest driver line up in F1 next season." a quote that drew audible laughs from the press.

They luck into a few points finishes (after throwing several away) and come back after the summer break to another written off chassis, and an illegal car. The team is once again banging the "we're going to replace Sargent drum" calling up MICK SCHUMACHER of all people, after JUST confirming Sargent for the rest of the season in that same interview where he made his idiotic comments about 2025.

Oh and Logan wrecking is irrelevant, because the car had on the upgrades too, which were illegal. So they saved the embarrassment of a double DQ. Not to mention, that the car is once again overweight, because Zandvoort was the first race all year Williams was at the minimum weight (per Sam Collins) but only WITH the upgrades, which included a small and lighter roll bar of all things.

Williams is an absolute dumpster fire this year, and a total embarrassment to the legacy of Sir Frank, not to mention the undisputed lock for ROTY. They just need to bring Rich Energy back into F1 to complete the look.

This is very funny. Very much of the "Williams made Logan look bad so I don't like Vowles" scriptbook. Just needs a "Logan's a great guy, a smart guy, real fast, I said he was the greatest but the team made him look bad, Vowles is sad..." to finish it with.

Remember that Frank/the Williams family presided over far worse years. I can dispute the rest, because I can see multiple mistruths in this.

EDIT: An addendum: I don't think Williams actually gives a solitary sh*t how it performs this season - screw up this year with processes, then you don't end up doing it if/when you're competitive.

I actually don't care for Logan either way, but do go off. I'm a fan of Williams, or I was. But they are laughably bad currently, and unlike Sauber and Haas, so no signs of improvement.

IceG wrote: ↑25 Aug 2024, 12:27

Wallio wrote: ↑25 Aug 2024, 11:01 Williams is an absolute dumpster fire this year, not to mention the undisputed lock for ROTY.

Do we just ignore the pointless Sauber team who take over a minute to do a pit-stop?

Sauber IS very bad no doubt, but they are running one car essentially, and in 18 months become the factory Audi/VW/Porsche team which counts for quite a bit.

That was an amazing performance by Charles to finish the race on the podium. No one gave him a chance at the start of the race to finish that high.

Wallio wrote: ↑25 Aug 2024, 15:20

Ataxia wrote: ↑25 Aug 2024, 14:21

Wallio wrote: ↑25 Aug 2024, 11:01

This is just the latest faux pas. The whole beginning of the season Vowles couldn't do an interview without talking about spreadsheets. The car was late, overweight, and quite a bit slower than last year, all due to changes in car building that Vowles himself is eager to get the credit for.

They then park Sargent because they don't have a spare car, destroying what confidence he has left, but claim they want to keep him. They then file a waiver with the FIA to get Kimi Antonelli in a year early (it was Williams, NOT Mercedes).

They run the first 1/3 of the season without a spare car (far longer than even Alpine) because they prioritized upgrades over spare parts (another thing Vowles repeatedly took credit for.) While James was actively begging Sainz to sign during interviews. "Actively campaigning" Will Buxton put it. They do get Sainz, again, because no one else seriously wanted him, and Vowles proclaiming that Williams "has the strongest driver line up in F1 next season." a quote that drew audible laughs from the press.

They luck into a few points finishes (after throwing several away) and come back after the summer break to another written off chassis, and an illegal car. The team is once again banging the "we're going to replace Sargent drum" calling up MICK SCHUMACHER of all people, after JUST confirming Sargent for the rest of the season in that same interview where he made his idiotic comments about 2025.

Oh and Logan wrecking is irrelevant, because the car had on the upgrades too, which were illegal. So they saved the embarrassment of a double DQ. Not to mention, that the car is once again overweight, because Zandvoort was the first race all year Williams was at the minimum weight (per Sam Collins) but only WITH the upgrades, which included a small and lighter roll bar of all things.

Williams is an absolute dumpster fire this year, and a total embarrassment to the legacy of Sir Frank, not to mention the undisputed lock for ROTY. They just need to bring Rich Energy back into F1 to complete the look.

This is very funny. Very much of the "Williams made Logan look bad so I don't like Vowles" scriptbook. Just needs a "Logan's a great guy, a smart guy, real fast, I said he was the greatest but the team made him look bad, Vowles is sad..." to finish it with.

Remember that Frank/the Williams family presided over far worse years. I can dispute the rest, because I can see multiple mistruths in this.

EDIT: An addendum: I don't think Williams actually gives a solitary sh*t how it performs this season - screw up this year with processes, then you don't end up doing it if/when you're competitive.

I actually don't care for Logan either way, but do go off. I'm a fan of Williams, or I was. But they are laughably bad currently, and unlike Sauber and Haas, so no signs of improvement.

It's true that Williams has shown no improvement in the car, but if the problem was/is as bad as Vowles described before the season, I honestly wouldn't expect any real improvement until next year or even the year after. At some point they need to take the pain of switching from ancient technology to something up to date or they will never trouble the front of the grid. At the company I work for, we had to make a much smaller software system change and it took 6 months and caused half the engineers to spend about half their time on the change. That's a quarter of our engineering capacity spent on other things for 6 months. We were fine, but imagine taking away 25% or more of Williams' engineering capacity for 6 months (and probably a lot more). They'd be lucky to score a point (and they kind of were).

I don't love how Vowles interacts with the press (or treats Sargeant), but if he was telling the truth about the Excel spreadsheet thing, there's no way they'd be able to show any improvement this year and maybe next year too. Once that change is bedded in, they should improve or at least keep pace with the teams around them budget-wise. And if they don't, I agree Vowles should be the first to go. As it stands, the way F1 works, he may end up fired before that point anyway, but hopefully he will have implemented processes that will enable a decent jump in Williams' future performance.

Row Man Gross-Gene wrote: ↑26 Aug 2024, 13:12
And if they don't, I agree Vowles should be the first to go. As it stands, the way F1 works, he may end up fired before that point anyway, but hopefully he will have implemented processes that will enable a decent jump in Williams' future performance.

See this is the problem, I think he's untouchable just due to how F1 works currently. Dorilton only wants to make money, and they do, regardless of how bad the team is. Performance in current F1 is pretty meaningless for 6 or 7 of the teams.

Meanwhile Haas' cars have been cleared to leave Zandvoort and head to Italy after it was confirmed their outstanding sponsor bill has been settled...

Wallio wrote: ↑26 Aug 2024, 15:44

Row Man Gross-Gene wrote: ↑26 Aug 2024, 13:12
And if they don't, I agree Vowles should be the first to go. As it stands, the way F1 works, he may end up fired before that point anyway, but hopefully he will have implemented processes that will enable a decent jump in Williams' future performance.

See this is the problem, I think he's untouchable just due to how F1 works currently. Dorilton only wants to make money, and they do, regardless of how bad the team is. Performance in current F1 is pretty meaningless for 6 or 7 of the teams.

I think you're right about some of the teams focusing on the money more than winning. But I don't see how that would make Vowles untouchable. Among the teams that seem to be in it for the money, there's been a lot of churn in upper management over the last three years. Off the top of my head we're talking Williams, Alpine, Sauber, Haas, Aston, and RB (albeit due to retirement). So I don't think Vowles is particularly safe. I can be convinced otherwise though.

Row Man Gross-Gene wrote: ↑26 Aug 2024, 16:41

Wallio wrote: ↑26 Aug 2024, 15:44

Row Man Gross-Gene wrote: ↑26 Aug 2024, 13:12
And if they don't, I agree Vowles should be the first to go. As it stands, the way F1 works, he may end up fired before that point anyway, but hopefully he will have implemented processes that will enable a decent jump in Williams' future performance.

See this is the problem, I think he's untouchable just due to how F1 works currently. Dorilton only wants to make money, and they do, regardless of how bad the team is. Performance in current F1 is pretty meaningless for 6 or 7 of the teams.

I think you're right about some of the teams focusing on the money more than winning. But I don't see how that would make Vowles untouchable. Among the teams that seem to be in it for the money, there's been a lot of churn in upper management over the last three years. Off the top of my head we're talking Williams, Alpine, Sauber, Haas, Aston, and RB (albeit due to retirement). So I don't think Vowles is particularly safe. I can be convinced otherwise though.

I would also have to say that I don't find it particularly convincing to argue that Vowles is untouchable because of Dorilton.

I do also feel that Vowles is being used as a bit of an easy scapegoat for problems that have been building at Williams for a long time. For decades, we have heard complaints that the senior management at Williams were coasting on past glories and refusing to change their approach to the sport, instead insisting on doing things in a particular way "because we've always done it that way", irrespective of whether it actually made sense to do so.

In his autobiography, Mark Webber was rather scathing about his experience of Williams - he mentioned that Frank Williams and Patrick Head seemed to be stuck in the past and were too stubborn to listen to advice from outsiders, and the engineers that he spoke to at the time, and those who were at the team in later years, described the work culture as being pretty poor. In particular, he pointed out that Sam Michael, in his role as Technical Director, was being heavily overworked by Frank Williams - frequently working 80 hour weeks - but that Frank Williams refused to get a PA for Sam to try and help manage his workload or otherwise try to redistribute some of his workload.

Even back in Webber's time, Williams's approach to design was considered to be lagging behind contemporary standards and their facilities were starting to become out of date - and given those facilities have had very little investment over the past couple of decades, they're now positively antiquated.

It's not just Webber who's talked about Williams having stuck to antiquated methods of working and out of date production equipment due to the senior management being reluctant to change things. Ralf Schumacher, whilst not being quite as harsh, ultimately indicated that he put much of the blame for the decline in Williams's decline in performance on the senior management of Williams refusing to reform, and strongly indicating that much of the problem lay with the "old guard" of the team were stuck with the "that's how we've always done it" mentality.

Nico Rosberg also made similar comments about Williams's senior management failing to recognise that they desperately needed to modernise their facilities, their management structure and their approach to designing their cars, not to mention times when Patrick Head sometimes threw him under the bus and was blaming him for Williams's problems.

As noted by Row Man Gross-Gene, whilst I wouldn't say that Vowles has been perfect, Williams have really had problems building at the team for decades - not just in terms of the facilities, which are badly overdue for an overhaul, but also in terms of the senior management needing to be reformed and their working practices to be modernised.

To that end, Vowles does seem to have been quite successful in recruiting senior staff as part of the restructuring in Williams's technical department and trying to encourage more modern practices at the team. Do I think it's going to be 100% successful? No - I expect there to be ups and downs in the whole process.

Do I expect the team to be instantly successful either? Again, no - to me, Williams's problems have been building for about 20 years now, and it's going to take several years to change things around. You could look at McLaren to some extent - Zak's been working for around 8 years to turn around McLaren's performances now, and their performance level is arguably only now really approaching the levels that it was at more than a decade ago.

Whether Vowles will succeed or fail will ultimately be seen, but I think Vowles has finally done something that is long overdue at Williams - recognising that there is a difference between recognising the traits and abilities that made Frank Williams and Patrick Head successful in the past, and slavishly sticking to those same methods even when they are no longer fit for purpose.

Sargent gone!

https://www.williamsf1.com/posts/fd43d9 ... -statement

US driver fired before two USA rounds ... that will go down well

sswishbone wrote: ↑27 Aug 2024, 16:52 Sargent gone!

https://www.williamsf1.com/posts/fd43d9 ... -statement

US driver fired before two USA rounds ... that will go down well

Sargent being fired was not unexpected, but his replacement certainly was. I imagine, like Logan, he brings some money.

Wallio wrote: ↑27 Aug 2024, 17:16

sswishbone wrote: ↑27 Aug 2024, 16:52 Sargent gone!

https://www.williamsf1.com/posts/fd43d9 ... -statement

US driver fired before two USA rounds ... that will go down well

Sargent being fired was not unexpected, but his replacement certainly was. I imagine, like Logan, he brings some money.

Exactly. Franco who? I would have gone with Liam Lawson myself, he seemed to prove himself as capable last year. More so than Schumacher when he was at Haas.

sswishbone wrote: ↑27 Aug 2024, 16:52 Sargent gone!

https://www.williamsf1.com/posts/fd43d9 ... -statement

US driver fired before two USA rounds ... that will go down well

No surprise there

But...Colapinto?