Grand Prix Rejects

About the Mercedes/Pirelli test: was it the FIA and Pirelli's way of giving Red Bull a massive finger? And I don't mean Vettel's finger, I mean proper flipping the bird.

CarlosFerreira wrote:About the Mercedes/Pirelli test: was it the FIA and Pirelli's way of giving Red Bull a massive finger? And I don't mean Vettel's finger, I mean proper flipping the bird.

It doesn't seem to be heading that way. I sense the smell of hefty fines.

DanielPT wrote:

CarlosFerreira wrote:About the Mercedes/Pirelli test: was it the FIA and Pirelli's way of giving Red Bull a massive finger? And I don't mean Vettel's finger, I mean proper flipping the bird.

It doesn't seem to be heading that way. I sense the smell of hefty fines.

I've seen it. I sense the smell of the FIA trying to pretend they give a flying f***.

CarlosFerreira wrote:

DanielPT wrote:

CarlosFerreira wrote:About the Mercedes/Pirelli test: was it the FIA and Pirelli's way of giving Red Bull a massive finger? And I don't mean Vettel's finger, I mean proper flipping the bird.

It doesn't seem to be heading that way. I sense the smell of hefty fines.

I've seen it. I sense the smell of the FIA trying to pretend they give a flying f***.

Conversely, I sense the FIA being influenced by Red Butthurt.

Cynon wrote:Conversely, I sense the FIA being influenced by Red Butthurt.

At least Mister Christian "looking smug" Horner has now something to do, except looking smug of course and preaching the words of Mister Helmut "redundant" Marko.

Well, just thinking about it, Paul di Resta would be a perfect driver for Red Bull...

CarlosFerreira wrote:
I've seen it. I sense the smell of the FIA trying to pretend they give a flying f***.

Perhaps. Perhaps they are afraid of upsetting Mercedes. My take is that they indeed give a flying bathplug. However, I don't think points deduction or DSQs are on the cards. What might cause in the end is Pirelli leaving the sport which is something that, it seems, many people are looking forward to...

DanielPT wrote:

CarlosFerreira wrote:About the Mercedes/Pirelli test: was it the FIA and Pirelli's way of giving Red Bull a massive finger? And I don't mean Vettel's finger, I mean proper flipping the bird.

It doesn't seem to be heading that way. I sense the smell of hefty fines.

The way that the comments by the FIA have been phrased do suggest to me that Pirelli might be in more trouble than Mercedes - Mercedes might be able to find a line of defence that argues that it was the responsibility of Pirelli to inform the FIA. At the very least, the question of whether or not other outfits were also given the same opportunity to test as Mercedes were would be one for Pirelli to answer rather than Mercedes.

DanielPT wrote:

CarlosFerreira wrote:
I've seen it. I sense the smell of the FIA trying to pretend they give a flying f***.

Perhaps. Perhaps they are afraid of upsetting Mercedes. My take is that they indeed give a flying bathplug. However, I don't think points deduction or DSQs are on the cards. What might cause in the end is Pirelli leaving the sport which is something that, it seems, many people are looking forward to...

It might appeal to that extremely vocal section of the fanbase that constantly spews abuse towards Pirelli in an increasingly tiresome way - although the rumours that Hankook might be being lined up as an alternative to Pirelli as a way of luring more Asian manufacturers and suppliers into the sport might mean that there are those within CVC who think it is more profitable to get rid of Pirelli.

Zetec wrote:Well, just thinking about it, Paul di Resta would be a perfect driver for Red Bull...

The personality matches well with Dieter (the owner) and the aging Webber suggest you're right.

Onxy Wrecked wrote:

Zetec wrote:Well, just thinking about it, Paul di Resta would be a perfect driver for Red Bull...

The personality matches well with Dieter (the owner) and the aging Webber suggest you're right.

The result would be non-stop moaning 24/7/365 and some very Egotistical quotes worth 10 Di Resta's

I wonder is CarlosFerreira bein paid by Perez or somethin, since he seems to be the only one who is blind and/or dumb enough to blame perez's crash on kimi

DonTirri wrote:I wonder is CarlosFerreira bein paid by Perez or somethin, since he seems to be the only one who is blind and/or dumb enough to blame perez's crash on kimi

Reading past your gratuitous offence, I personally deem that a racing incident. Perez had a go and while a bit on the optimistic side, he clearly banked on Kimi not closing the door which eventually didn't happened and thus they collided. I also don't blame Kimi for being frustrated by those events when he said those remarks about Perez. Now, for a very long time the lack of overtaking in F1 was extreme and at Monaco, still is. Don't get me wrong as I am not saying everything is allowed, but in these cases, lambasting a driver for trying to actually overtake doesn't really encourage further action from drivers. I just saw a hugely daft article by Coulthard on the BBC where he first gets on Perez back for being on the attack and then complains about Alonso being defensive. His take on a good battle? The mistake by Webber in allowing Hamilton to have a look at Rascasse in what was an impossible move because Hamilton always had to back out before Noghes unless he wanted either to end both his and Webber's race or go to the pits. Go figure.

DanielPT wrote:

DonTirri wrote:I wonder is CarlosFerreira bein paid by Perez or somethin, since he seems to be the only one who is blind and/or dumb enough to blame perez's crash on kimi

Reading past your gratuitous offence, I personally deem that a racing incident. Perez had a go and while a bit on the optimistic side, he clearly banked on Kimi not closing the door which eventually didn't happened and thus they collided. I also don't blame Kimi for being frustrated by those events when he said those remarks about Perez. Now, for a very long time the lack of overtaking in F1 was extreme and at Monaco, still is. Don't get me wrong as I am not saying everything is allowed, but in these cases, lambasting a driver for trying to actually overtake doesn't really encourage further action from drivers. I just saw a hugely daft article by Coulthard on the BBC where he first gets on Perez back for being on the attack and then complains about Alonso being defensive. His take on a good battle? The mistake by Webber in allowing Hamilton to have a look at Rascasse in what was an impossible move because Hamilton always had to back out before Noghes unless he wanted either to end both his and Webber's race or go to the pits. Go figure.

My issue with Perez's move wasn't the fact that he tried to overtake, rather, I was very impressed with his earlier maneuvers on Button and Alonso. His attempts at passing Raikkonen, however, were downright irresponsible, specifically that fatal attempt near the end of the race. He committed far too soon, failed to assess Raikkonen's line, and paid dearly for it. Perez needs to get out of his GP2 mentality and begin racing with at least a modicum of responsibility.

As a counterpoint, Adrian Sutil was able to pass two very competent drivers without, or at least on the brink of, smashing himself, or another car into the barriers. Overtaking at Monaco safely requires patience and guile, rather than entitled recklessness.

kevinbotz wrote:My issue with Perez's move wasn't the fact that he tried to overtake, rather, I was very impressed with his earlier maneuvers on Button and Alonso. His attempts at passing Raikkonen, however, were downright irresponsible, specifically that fatal attempt near the end of the race. He committed far too soon, failed to assess Raikkonen's line, and paid dearly for it. Perez needs to get out of his GP2 mentality and begin racing with at least a modicum of responsibility.

As a counterpoint, Adrian Sutil was able to pass two very competent drivers without, or at least on the brink of, smashing himself, or another car into the barriers. Overtaking at Monaco safely requires patience and guile, rather than entitled recklessness.

Clearly Perez is not blameless. But I am avoiding to criticise him because I prise these kind of moves, specially when they get rarer by the year as people say that tyres don't allow racing and then immediately jumps into drivers who make small mistakes while doing some racing. I am not exempt in the latter part, mind you, as I too back in the early Hamilton days criticised him for being too reckless, half blind by the distasteful over hyping press and half believing it wouldn't affect his driving much (it did). Sure you can say Hamilton is more mature in his driving these days, but I call it subdued. I say we need recklessness in F1 and I thank Perez for that. You can say that I partly changed my take on this between now and then and that is correct. No one is perfect.

DanielPT wrote:Clearly Perez is not blameless. But I am avoiding to criticise him because I prise these kind of moves, specially when they get rarer by the year as people say that tyres don't allow racing and then immediately jumps into drivers who make small mistakes while doing some racing. I am not exempt in the latter part, mind you, as I too back in the early Hamilton days criticised him for being too reckless, half blind by the distasteful over hyping press and half believing it wouldn't affect his driving much (it did). Sure you can say Hamilton is more mature in his driving these days, but I call it subdued. I say we need recklessness in F1 and I thank Perez for that. You can say that I partly changed my take on this between now and then and that is correct. No one is perfect.

I think that's mostly my point. I get tired of some degree of fanboyism that happens around the Internet - F1R is probably not the worst place. If Perez had pulled that stunt on Vettel and the result had been the same, how many people would be hailing him as a great racer and penalising Vettel as a guy who can't overtake? Conversely, because Raikkonen is one of F1's sacred cows, anyone who crosses swords with him cannot help but be criticised. Perez, di Resta, van der Garde, on the other hand, cannot make a single thing without being criticised and publicly told they don't deserve being in F1. Meh.

As for DonTirri, let him blow off some steam.

CarlosFerreira wrote:

DanielPT wrote:Clearly Perez is not blameless. But I am avoiding to criticise him because I prise these kind of moves, specially when they get rarer by the year as people say that tyres don't allow racing and then immediately jumps into drivers who make small mistakes while doing some racing. I am not exempt in the latter part, mind you, as I too back in the early Hamilton days criticised him for being too reckless, half blind by the distasteful over hyping press and half believing it wouldn't affect his driving much (it did). Sure you can say Hamilton is more mature in his driving these days, but I call it subdued. I say we need recklessness in F1 and I thank Perez for that. You can say that I partly changed my take on this between now and then and that is correct. No one is perfect.

I think that's mostly my point. I get tired of some degree of fanboyism that happens around the Internet - F1R is probably not the worst place. If Perez had pulled that stunt on Vettel and the result had been the same, how many people would be hailing him as a great racer and penalising Vettel as a guy who can't overtake? Conversely, because Raikkonen is one of F1's sacred cows, anyone who crosses swords with him cannot help but be criticised. Perez, di Resta, van der Garde, on the other hand, cannot make a single thing without being criticised and publicly told they don't deserve being in F1. Meh.

As for DonTirri, let him blow off some steam.

I suppose that another reason why some have been harsh towards Perez over the move on Kimi would be the fact that, earlier in the race, he was also involved in that controversial move on Button which resulted in him cutting chicanes in order to hold his position. Given that he had already been criticised for his driving earlier in the race, that probably would have already made some think negatively of his performance in the race before that clash with Kimi, which would have exaggerated that negative perception even further.

Zetec wrote:Well, just thinking about it, Paul di Resta would be a perfect driver for Red Bull...

Paul Di Resta himself would certainly think so too.

mario wrote:I suppose that another reason why some have been harsh towards Perez over the move on Kimi would be the fact that, earlier in the race, he was also involved in that controversial move on Button which resulted in him cutting chicanes in order to hold his position. Given that he had already been criticised for his driving earlier in the race, that probably would have already made some think negatively of his performance in the race before that clash with Kimi, which would have exaggerated that negative perception even further.

Sure, I won't say not. But note how no one is criticising Perez for his more on Alonso. Why? I dare to think that if Checo happened to put Alonso on the wall there would be more than one person celebrating it.

Most of us - present company excluded, mario - allow our preferences to tint our judgement. I do it all the time, for one.

CarlosFerreira wrote:

mario wrote:I suppose that another reason why some have been harsh towards Perez over the move on Kimi would be the fact that, earlier in the race, he was also involved in that controversial move on Button which resulted in him cutting chicanes in order to hold his position. Given that he had already been criticised for his driving earlier in the race, that probably would have already made some think negatively of his performance in the race before that clash with Kimi, which would have exaggerated that negative perception even further.

Sure, I won't say not. But note how no one is criticising Perez for his more on Alonso. Why? I dare to think that if Checo happened to put Alonso on the wall there would be more than one person celebrating it.

Most of us - present company excluded, mario - allow our preferences to tint our judgement. I do it all the time, for one.

Well, to be fair, Perez's attempted overtake on Alonso wasn't unduly unreasonable. It was undoubtedly risky, riskier than I'd have preferred, but there did exist a sufficient gap for a maneuver, and as such, I don't see much reason criticizing him for it. In contrast, Perez made a premeditated move without considering potential contingencies on lap 69 at the chicane, where Raikkonen was on the racing line and there was no gap at all.

@CarlosFerreira; It's very true that there's a lot fanboyism on Kimi, maybe even the most out of top drivers, and he will be defended by certain fans no matter what he does on track or says in interviews.

However I do not think it's a very big issue on these forums. I've seen a lot worse places than this (as you said too) and usually the tone of discussion is rather neutral and considered around here, especially if you exclude the live comments (hey, it's the site of Reject fans....obviously we have considerably less people here who watch F1 only to blindly support one, usually a big name, driver and sprout out shite on each of his rivals!). So I cannot really see why you're 'counter-attacking' exactly here.

kevinbotz wrote:

CarlosFerreira wrote:

mario wrote:I suppose that another reason why some have been harsh towards Perez over the move on Kimi would be the fact that, earlier in the race, he was also involved in that controversial move on Button which resulted in him cutting chicanes in order to hold his position. Given that he had already been criticised for his driving earlier in the race, that probably would have already made some think negatively of his performance in the race before that clash with Kimi, which would have exaggerated that negative perception even further.

Sure, I won't say not. But note how no one is criticising Perez for his more on Alonso. Why? I dare to think that if Checo happened to put Alonso on the wall there would be more than one person celebrating it.

Most of us - present company excluded, mario - allow our preferences to tint our judgement. I do it all the time, for one.

Well, to be fair, Perez's attempted overtake on Alonso wasn't unduly unreasonable. It was undoubtedly risky, riskier than I'd have preferred, but there did exist a sufficient gap for a maneuver, and as such, I don't see much reason criticizing him for it. In contrast, Perez made a premeditated move without considering potential contingencies on lap 69 at the chicane, where Raikkonen was on the racing line and there was no gap at all.

CarlosFerreira, I'm flattered by your comment that you see me as trying to be as even handed as possible (even if I will admit that, much as I try to be even handed, I cannot be entirely free of bias, either through overt or subconscious influences). As you say, given the subjective nature of reporting and inherent biases towards certain drivers and teams, it can sometimes be hard to disregard that when looking at an incident.
Thankfully, as giraud points out, although it is something that does sometimes arise on this forum, generally though I would say that the members of this forum are more calm and measured in their responses than on some forums I've seen. Young though many members here are, they seem to be much wiser and mature than some adults that I've seen elsewhere.

Speaking of Perez's move on Alonso - and one could also bring up the move he made on Button too, since that was similar in style - it does actually bring up something that I have seen mentioned elsewhere, which was Kimi's relative on track position. Kimi was on a slightly defensive line when he came into that corner - he was towards the middle of the track when, normally, you would be close to the right hand barrier to minimise the amount of steering lock required to get through that corner and maximise the entry speed.
If you look at where Button and Alonso were when Perez passed them, I would say that they were closer to where the normal racing line would be, whereas Kimi does seem to have drifted across to the middle of the track and was further across than normal when contact was made. It actually reminds me a bit of the Ricciardo-Grosjean incident in some ways, as Ricciardo had also moved closer to the centre of the track than normal to defend against Grosjean.

With Alonso and Button, it seemed to work because both of those drivers were perhaps caught out and used the more normal racing line, creating space for a driver very late on the brakes to dive down the inside, whereas Kimi's line was always going to cut that room off.
Kimi, by contrast, was cutting off that line - probably because he was warned by his pit wall that Perez was attacking drivers into that corner (other drivers were being warned about Sutil attacking into the Loews hairpin, for example), but I suppose the question is whether or not he did so before or after Perez committed to the move.

The angle that Kimi's steering is at was going to continue to take him closer to that inside barrier at the point when Perez appears to have committed to the move, and the problem with passing in that corner is that you do have to commit to the move quite early on. The footage suggests that he was already moving across before Perez was alongside, and therefore was not obliged to leave room for Perez, but I can see why some would argue the line of "racing incident".

I cannot agree with the view that it was a racing incident. Pérez wasn't even close to getting alongside Räikkönen as they entered into the braking zone, and in fact he only managed to get his front tyres alongside Räikkonen's rears even though he started to brake much later. Had Räikkönen left room (and he had no reason to do so, because Pérez wasn't in a position to attack to begin with) Pérez would have managed to stop the car with his front wheels about to hit the chicane kerbs, at the earliest, and effectively blocking Räikkönen's chances to make the corner, which I can't view as a proper overtaking manoeuvre.

The move on Button was great, the one on Alonso was borderline, but the two moves on Räikkönen were bonehead. I would like to view onboards of the previous overtakings, though, in order to compare Pérez's relative braking points and see if at least a portion of the blame can be placed on Räikkönen; if Pérez braked at the same place the four times, then you could make the point that Button and Alonso left room while Räikkönen didn't.

mario wrote:

kevinbotz wrote:

CarlosFerreira wrote:
Sure, I won't say not. But note how no one is criticising Perez for his more on Alonso. Why? I dare to think that if Checo happened to put Alonso on the wall there would be more than one person celebrating it.

Most of us - present company excluded, mario - allow our preferences to tint our judgement. I do it all the time, for one.

Well, to be fair, Perez's attempted overtake on Alonso wasn't unduly unreasonable. It was undoubtedly risky, riskier than I'd have preferred, but there did exist a sufficient gap for a maneuver, and as such, I don't see much reason criticizing him for it. In contrast, Perez made a premeditated move without considering potential contingencies on lap 69 at the chicane, where Raikkonen was on the racing line and there was no gap at all.

CarlosFerreira, I'm flattered by your comment that you see me as trying to be as even handed as possible (even if I will admit that, much as I try to be even handed, I cannot be entirely free of bias, either through overt or subconscious influences). As you say, given the subjective nature of reporting and inherent biases towards certain drivers and teams, it can sometimes be hard to disregard that when looking at an incident.

Well you seem to do a great job of it, sir. I still cannot seem to pick up from your posts which driver/team you're actually a fan of!

Personally, I'd like to put down the Perez/Raikkonen incident down as a racing incident. I feel that Perez perhaps was rather optimistic in that move, but considering he'd been quite fighty beforehand I could imagine he'd felt that rush of blood to the head and felt he could perhaps stretch to one more bite at the overtaking cherry. I know it's not an excuse that would hold up in court, but if you're considering an F1 driver from a psychological point of view then I think it might be a conceivable thought...and thinking psychologically and not taking things at face value is quite important when understanding somebody. That's why I think the treatment of Grosjean up and down the paddock has been questionable; I know drivers like to play the odd mind game but although jibes to intimidate someone is part of the game, making the effort to try and shatter somebody's confidence isn't totally fair in my opinion.

I also want to see the "Perez should be punched" quote from the horse's mouth as well. It's all very well Andrew Benson saying such things, but the actual article on the BBC Sport site doesn't provide a video at all. I think it's a bit of an odd thing for Kimi to say, but I could be wrong and he could well have said it...so does a link exist anywhere?

The Move on Button was great to watch even if it wasn't clean and at that point Perez was proving that it isn't difficult to overtake around Monaco without that extra belief that you can do it

The Move on Alonso was 50:50 in my opinion. Fernando was trying to avoid running over the kerb to avoid a collision but he really should have sensed that Perez was going to try and attack him just like in Bahrain and it cost him the Position afterwards. Remember last year Vergne cut the corner in a similar move with Perez and was told to give the place back when he had been ahead before so why should Fernando expect it to be different for him?

The moves on Kimi however were downright ludicrous and here he seemed to switch to Johnny Cecotto/Andy Neate mode.In the first move As DC said in the BBC commentary feed he didn't expect Perez to try a move as going into the tunnel Sergio was about 0.6-0.7 behind when being around 0.3 would have been enough to successfully complete the move.

The 2nd move however really did wind Kimi up. Sergio really should have known from the previous attempt that Kimi wasn't going to let him past easily and going for the gap was a tad optimistic although how both of them got through without what appeared to be any major damage at the time i will never know. Initially i was quite alarmed at how they all closed on Kimi through the swimming pool area because he was about 1.1 ahead going into the tunnel and then on Sky Brundle spotted the puncture Kimi sustained. Then Perez had his brakes overheat forcing him into retirement although i thought he was going to clatter Button in trying to go in the pits.

In my view some of the blame should go to Martin Whitmarsh because he was the one who after China said that Perez had to toughen up and it looks like he's toughened him up too much. If Perez can calm down and break down how to approach a race properly then he should get better as the year goes on

Personally I find it highly amusing that everybody NOT blaming Räikkönen is down to some weird "Never say bad things of certain drivers!!!" conspiracy >_> I mean seriously guys?
The fact is that even IF Räikkönen did leave room, they would've both ended up having to straightline the chicane. And when the driver behind hits the guy in the front's back in a situation where in the BEST case both drivers HAVE to cut the chicane... HOW can you assign even the slightest blame on Kimi? Yeah, sure. He expected Perez not to be a total idiot. His bad.

And as far as the "controversial" words spoken by the Iceman... So what if he said it? Unlike everyone seems to think, saying that something oughta be done is different from it actually being done. Though, I'd preferred if he had kept it to Finnish PRess. That way the world wouldn't had the chance to get their panties in a bunch.

DonTirri wrote:Personally I find it highly amusing that everybody NOT blaming Räikkönen is down to some weird "Never say bad things of certain drivers!!!" conspiracy >_> I mean seriously guys?
The fact is that even IF Räikkönen did leave room, they would've both ended up having to straightline the chicane. And when the driver behind hits the guy in the front's back in a situation where in the BEST case both drivers HAVE to cut the chicane... HOW can you assign even the slightest blame on Kimi? Yeah, sure. He expected Perez not to be a total idiot. His bad.

And as far as the "controversial" words spoken by the Iceman... So what if he said it? Unlike everyone seems to think, saying that something oughta be done is different from it actually being done. Though, I'd preferred if he had kept it to Finnish PRess. That way the world wouldn't had the chance to get their panties in a bunch.

I actually agree with Don Tirri here. I can't see how that incident (which it was) can have its blame (which it doesn't cause its an incident) appointed to anyone other than Perez. I dont think his prior moves were reckless and I thought that he was having a brilliant weekend up until he decided to shut off his brain and go for a non existent gap.

And lastly, what Kimi said pales into insignificance compared to what other drivers/sportsmen have said before, let alone done. Everybody here knows Senna punched Irvine in the face and that it was awesome. We all wanted JPM and Half Schuey to have fisticuffs in 01/02 (JPM would have lost btw). Whence then the double standards?

CarlosFerreira wrote:

DanielPT wrote:

CarlosFerreira wrote:About the Mercedes/Pirelli test: was it the FIA and Pirelli's way of giving Red Bull a massive finger? And I don't mean Vettel's finger, I mean proper flipping the bird.

It doesn't seem to be heading that way. I sense the smell of hefty fines.

I've seen it. I sense the smell of the FIA trying to pretend they give a flying f***.

My angry take on this is that Mercedes were glad to do it so they can get more info on tyre deg, but the other teams didn't give a flying damn f*** about it so Merc had a illegal test under their belts and would be screwed to f***ing hell. Sure, give Merc a fine, but everyone is at fault and nothing should be done about it, god damn.

DonTirri wrote:And as far as the "controversial" words spoken by the Iceman... So what if he said it? Unlike everyone seems to think, saying that something oughta be done is different from it actually being done.

I didnt realise Raikkonnens comments were big news, seems a bit pointless to me. I recall Coulthard suggesting if Massa hadnt apologised for some incident or other he wouldve lamped 7 shades of shite out of him which to me is more aggressive than this if you took it seriously, which nobody did IIRC.

Poor Kimi, he gets attention for not speaking much then attention when he does

giraurd wrote:@CarlosFerreira; It's very true that there's a lot fanboyism on Kimi, maybe even the most out of top drivers, and he will be defended by certain fans no matter what he does on track or says in interviews.

However I do not think it's a very big issue on these forums. I've seen a lot worse places than this (as you said too) and usually the tone of discussion is rather neutral and considered around here, especially if you exclude the live comments (hey, it's the site of Reject fans....obviously we have considerably less people here who watch F1 only to blindly support one, usually a big name, driver and sprout out shite on each of his rivals!). So I cannot really see why you're 'counter-attacking' exactly here.

You're right, of course. This just happens to be the only forum I post on. Plus, I remain honestly surprised at the following Kimi has, even here. I thought that after he denied Fisichella and Force India the win in Spa in 2009 (is that correct? Maybe it was 2010) by using the Kimi line out of Les Combes, F1 Rejects was done with Kimi. I am honestly surprised anyone has any time for him around here.

CoopsII wrote:

DonTirri wrote:And as far as the "controversial" words spoken by the Iceman... So what if he said it? Unlike everyone seems to think, saying that something oughta be done is different from it actually being done.

I didnt realise Raikkonnens comments were big news, seems a bit pointless to me. I recall Coulthard suggesting if Massa hadnt apologised for some incident or other he wouldve lamped 7 shades of shite out of him which to me is more aggressive than this if you took it seriously, which nobody did IIRC.

Poor Kimi, he gets attention for not speaking much then attention when he does

I imagine that the reason why his comments have received that much attention is because it is unusual for Kimi to verbally attack another driver, especially in such a blunt manner. When Hamilton took him out of the 2008 Canadian GP, for example, Kimi was much more subtle in showing his displeasure - there was that moment where he walked over to Hamilton, asked for his attention and then simply pointed to the red light at the end of the pit lane to make his point.
I can't really recall him saying something similar about another driver in recent years, and given Kimi's reputation for being a level headed and calm individual, it is surprising to hear him get that worked up about somebody else.

Even though its early days in the season, do you think there's a possibility that the pressure may be getting to Raikkonen? In a slightly inferior car, he's found himself in second place in the championship and a string of very promising results. Could it be that he knows with Vettel finishing second that he's dropped the ball in Monaco, and that has manifested itself in his outburst at Perez, for what he feels cost him a much better points finish?

AndreaModa wrote:Even though its early days in the season, do you think there's a possibility that the pressure may be getting to Raikkonen? In a slightly inferior car, he's found himself in second place in the championship and a string of very promising results. Could it be that he knows with Vettel finishing second that he's dropped the ball in Monaco, and that has manifested itself in his outburst at Perez, for what he feels cost him a much better points finish?

If he keeps picking up 'mini points finishes,' I think the pressure might be getting to him. But don't forget, he is second in the championship, so if anything, he may actually be more confident, much like Button was in 2011.

mario wrote:

CoopsII wrote:

DonTirri wrote:And as far as the "controversial" words spoken by the Iceman... So what if he said it? Unlike everyone seems to think, saying that something oughta be done is different from it actually being done.

I didnt realise Raikkonnens comments were big news, seems a bit pointless to me. I recall Coulthard suggesting if Massa hadnt apologised for some incident or other he wouldve lamped 7 shades of shite out of him which to me is more aggressive than this if you took it seriously, which nobody did IIRC.

Poor Kimi, he gets attention for not speaking much then attention when he does

I imagine that the reason why his comments have received that much attention is because it is unusual for Kimi to verbally attack another driver, especially in such a blunt manner. When Hamilton took him out of the 2008 Canadian GP, for example, Kimi was much more subtle in showing his displeasure - there was that moment where he walked over to Hamilton, asked for his attention and then simply pointed to the red light at the end of the pit lane to make his point.
I can't really recall him saying something similar about another driver in recent years, and given Kimi's reputation for being a level headed and calm individual, it is surprising to hear him get that worked up about somebody else.

Oh god, that was brilliant, I still remember it.

And as far as reporting goes, I love the BBC's F1 headline:

"Punch Perez in the face - Räikkönen"

They make it sound like more of a suggestion than anything else XD

Mario, who in the blue-hell do you throw your support behind in F1? Because myself and many others have absolutely no clue due to your very balanced and impartial posts on races. I struggle to sleep at night unless you tell us

A lot of discussion on Perez-Raikkonen incident so I'll post my ten pence worth too

Firstly, we have (Or at least, I have) seen all the on-board cameras from Perez when he overtook Button, Alonso and the two attempts on Raikkonen:
On Button he was an acceptable level behind, something you'd see in nearly every move, so no problem there because he clearly made the corner as did button.
On Alonso, the gap was a little bigger, hence the bigger lock-up and Alonso having to cut the chicane a little. A bit reckless but fortunately Alonso saw him at the very last second, otherwise carbon-fibre would've been spilt.
On Raikkonen, and this is where my opinion is divided with others. The first move, yeah not a massive problem it just didn't work. But the second move, I feel is 50/50. Perez is a very long way back granted, but what exactly is Kimi doing when Perez is almost sliding up the inside? He's not completely on the facing line yet he hasn't put his car in a clear defensive position. It's like Kimi's a little confused at what he wants to do in the braking zone, wether he's seen Perez steamrolling towards him or not. Therefore, Perez has every right to attempt the move, however reckless it may be looked, because Kimi hasn't given a clear 'sign' at how he is positioning his car. Kimi is also starting to turn into the corner at a very early stage, closing the gap earlier than usual. Perez isn't going to realise this until he is almost alongside and immediately tries to back-out of the move before the inevitable contact was made. Had Kimi properly defended his position instead of his 'should I, shouldn't I' approach Perez wouldn't have prepared a move. Kimi's hesitation and general confusion allowed Perez an opportunity.
Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying its all Kimi's fault, but I've never seen a car in the braking zone for the chicane in the position Kimi was. He did it several times during the race, drifting over in the early stages of the braking zone and turning in very early. He's not taking a defensive line at all, he's just... Well, maybe on Kimi knows. If your defending, make it clear, make it impossible for someone to attempt a move, don't just float around with your car half on the racing line.

AdrianSutil wrote:Mario, who in the blue-hell do you throw your support behind in F1? Because myself and many others have absolutely no clue due to your very balanced and impartial posts on races. I struggle to sleep at night unless you tell us

A lot of discussion on Perez-Raikkonen incident so I'll post my ten pence worth too

Firstly, we have (Or at least, I have) seen all the on-board cameras from Perez when he overtook Button, Alonso and the two attempts on Raikkonen:
On Button he was an acceptable level behind, something you'd see in nearly every move, so no problem there because he clearly made the corner as did button.
On Alonso, the gap was a little bigger, hence the bigger lock-up and Alonso having to cut the chicane a little. A bit reckless but fortunately Alonso saw him at the very last second, otherwise carbon-fibre would've been spilt.
On Raikkonen, and this is where my opinion is divided with others. The first move, yeah not a massive problem it just didn't work. But the second move, I feel is 50/50. Perez is a very long way back granted, but what exactly is Kimi doing when Perez is almost sliding up the inside? He's not completely on the facing line yet he hasn't put his car in a clear defensive position. It's like Kimi's a little confused at what he wants to do in the braking zone, wether he's seen Perez steamrolling towards him or not. Therefore, Perez has every right to attempt the move, however reckless it may be looked, because Kimi hasn't given a clear 'sign' at how he is positioning his car. Kimi is also starting to turn into the corner at a very early stage, closing the gap earlier than usual. Perez isn't going to realise this until he is almost alongside and immediately tries to back-out of the move before the inevitable contact was made. Had Kimi properly defended his position instead of his 'should I, shouldn't I' approach Perez wouldn't have prepared a move. Kimi's hesitation and general confusion allowed Perez an opportunity.
Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying its all Kimi's fault, but I've never seen a car in the braking zone for the chicane in the position Kimi was. He did it several times during the race, drifting over in the early stages of the braking zone and turning in very early. He's not taking a defensive line at all, he's just... Well, maybe on Kimi knows. If your defending, make it clear, make it impossible for someone to attempt a move, don't just float around with your car half on the racing line.

This. I have to agree with this. I thought Kimi was at fault and agreed with CarlosFerriera. But, I think different now. Well written opinion and rant in one nutshell!

go_Rubens wrote:
My angry take on this is that Mercedes were glad to do it so they can get more info on tyre deg, but the other teams didn't give a flying damn f*** about it so Merc had a illegal test under their belts and would be screwed to f***ing hell. Sure, give Merc a fine, but everyone is at fault and nothing should be done about it, god damn.

THIS!!! the fact that Pirelli asked RedbullSh** and Ferrari and both said sorry, it's THEIR OWN FAULT!.. Merc complied to pirelli's request.. not only that it's actually better for Pirelli to guage the situation of the tyres with the worst offending car on tyre deg in the field, not only that but as Merc does have the resouces for providing better date, which in turn will be meaningful and usable by Pirelli - I DON'T SEE WHAT Christian is bitching about.. oh and Stefano's take apparently is that THEY want in too for inseason testing..

CarlosFerreira wrote:About the Mercedes/Pirelli test: was it the FIA and Pirelli's way of giving Red Bull a massive finger? And I don't mean Vettel's finger, I mean proper flipping the bird.

HHAHAHAHHA

AdrianSutil wrote:Mario, who in the blue-hell do you throw your support behind in F1? Because myself and many others have absolutely no clue due to your very balanced and impartial posts on races. I struggle to sleep at night unless you tell us

I guess that, as a moderator, I aim to try to take my own feelings out of the matter, even if not always easy - if I cannot separate my own passions from the situations, then how can I trust others to respect my decisions? Still, since you seem curious, I might as well set out where I stand.
To be honest, I respect most of the drivers and designers in the sport for their talent and ability, such that I am, I guess, relatively neutral towards most figures within the paddock. I will concede that, to a certain extent, I might have a slight bias towards the Anglophone drivers simply because the shared language and culture makes it easier to relate to them, but even so I accept that often what we are shown are the more dramatic sides of the drivers because an attention hungry media knows that those aspects make for more dramatic headlines.

Webber and Button, for example, strike me as the sort of people that you would like to go to the bar with and have a good chat over a drink (although their reputations make it sound as if it'd be more than just one drink you'd be having); Ricciardo has a similarly relaxed demeanour too (one reporter described him as being a bit like a puppy dog, always bounding about the pit lane with inexhaustible energy). Grosjean, even if I do think that he has been a bit reckless on track, also comes across as a similarly likeable person; Vettel, though I do feel that he does sometimes try too hard to be liked and comes across as a bit arrogant at times (understandable given that even the most level headed person might get a little egotistical when you've had that amount of success so quickly and at such a young age), comes across as the sort of person you could also have a good laugh with too.
As for some of the other drivers, Alonso, to me, is a bit more mixed - his performance impresses me, and the way in which he joked around with the mechanics at the Ferrari Christmas party or his slightly cheeky magic tricks show a warmer side to his character, but at the same time there is the disquiet that comes from his more political nature and being associated with trouble in the past. Massa strikes me as a sympathetic figure - I admired the way he dealt, with considerable grace, tact and dignity, with the way that Hamilton took the title at the last gasp in 2008 despite Massa having a perfect race in front of his home crowd, and his affection for his family is also admirable. Speaking of Hamilton, although he did kind of go off the rails for a while and behaved immaturely at times, still impresses with his commitment and desire to go hell for leather when allowed to - almost Mansell like in some ways - and, now that he seems more relaxed and happier at Mercedes, he seems to have matured a bit more too.
Elsewhere on the grid, it is perhaps a little harder to form an impression of some of the drivers because, being rookies, I'm less familiar with them. I'll admit that I am a little cool towards Hulkenberg - he showed impressive form at Force India late last year, but also strikes me as a slightly tempestuous figure who is prone to getting frustrated a little too easily. The incident of him smashing up part of the Williams garage in Singapore a few years ago, and some of the angry messages that he's occasionally given the Sauber team recently, have reinforced that image a bit, and I fear that rashness might hold him back if he cannot temper it.
Sutil, again, is mixed - were it not for the incident with Lux, I would probably have a more favourable view on him - although Di Resta is probably one of the few I have a more negative view towards, simply because I feel his tendency to blame others for his misfortunes hinders his own personal development as well as coming across as arrogant (though the tendency of the press to interview him probably doesn't help - I'd probably get a bit fed up too if I was repeatedly having to fend off reporters). Kimi I sympathise with in some ways because, being somewhat introverted like him, I can understand why he can be cantankerous and brusque with people at times; Perez does seem to be a nice enough guy, but I fear that McLaren might be mismanaging him by encouraging him to be overly aggressive on track and perhaps he needs to develop his on track awareness a bit more (he is a relatively inexperienced driver, after all, and, given that McLaren's poor form they cannot afford to throw away points if they want to retain some dignity and beat Force India). As for most of the remaining drivers, I do not have especially strong impressions of them given they are relatively new to the sport, so for now I'll hold my judgement on them.

In terms of teams, I would say that, in recent years, the teams that have impressed me the most in a number of ways are Force India and Sauber. Whilst it is the case that Red Bull have lead the design language in recent years and Newey's influence is as high as ever, the fact that he also works for one of the richest and best resourced teams in the sport does also give him a major advantage over some other designers. Force India have turned themselves from a back of the field outfit into a solid midfield performer on a relatively modest budget, and occasionally punched well above their weight in the WCC - let us not forget that they nearly finished 5th in the WCC in 2011, had a fairly successful 2012 season and are currently humbling McLaren this year. If you had told me that five years ago when they were struggling at the tail end of the field, I'd have probably laughed at you - but I imagine that their performance has wiped the smiles off the faces of quite a few rivals...

Sauber, meanwhile, have done well to merely survive the way in which BMW pulled out and nearly destroyed the team (if Toyota had not also withdrawn from F1, allowing Sauber to take its place, they would have had to leave the sport and possibly shut down operations). Although it has been a rocky time, their design department has come up with some interesting designs in recent years - Newey has sung their praises in the past and even outright copied a number of features off of their cars, high praise for another relatively modest team that has outperformed its status at times.
OK, their design decisions this year do not seem to have paid off for them but, at the very least, they've tried to go their own way and introduce a different design language to the sport. It's a shame for them, and for Hulkenberg, that it looks like they've slipped back this year though...

As for the others, Red Bull have antagonised me a bit by their increasingly political nature, and I am rather uncomfortable with the overly close relationship that Mateschitz and Marko seem to be trying to cultivate with Bernie for their own ends, which I fear is detrimental to the sport. Ferrari leaves me a little more mixed - again, the politicking is uncomfortable but, on the other hand, I agree with some of their calls for pushing the technology of the sport (especially the mechanical side) and for some of their demands for testing. McLaren have generally left me with a sense of disappointment in recent years - yes, they have been successful on the whole but they seem to lack some of the discipline, professionalism and attention to detail that they pride themselves on, and have struck me as having lost that keen cutting edge they once had.
Mercedes, for now, have underwhelmed me a little - I will concede that the restructuring in recent years has hurt them, plus they do now seem to be moving in the right direction, but they have struck me as needing to slim down a bit and make themselves more efficient. Lotus, I also admire for what they have achieved - they have tended to produce very competitive cars despite having fewer resources than other teams and been especially inventive in recent years, though I am concerned that the loss of some key personnel - not the mention the far larger financial losses they've been making (£57 million in 2012 according to The Telegraph) is going to badly affect the team in the future.
Toro Rosso, sadly, has effectively lost all of its personality now that it is just an extension of Red Bull and only really exists now to serve the parent team; as for Williams, unfortunately there is only so long that nostalgia can help sustain affection for them, and the frustration of seeing them wasting a good car in 2012 only grows when you see that they have gone backwards quite quickly again. Even 2011 wasn't quite as bad as this in some ways, since at least by this point in the 2011 season they had made it into the points (even if was just for two points).

As for the two at the back - very much the rationale of this site - it is Marussia that I have more admiration of, to be honest. Caterham started out well, but in recent years I have wearied a bit of their continual promises of moving forward - promises they've failed to deliver on - and the way in which they have treated their drivers. Yes, it is tough at the back of the grid and hard decisions need to be made, but the way in which Petrov, Trulli and Kovalainen were pushed out in favour of pay drivers arguably did the team more harm than good (kicking Trulli out midway through pre-season testing, for example, meant that Petrov was underprepared for the season and a large chunk of their test data was of little value).
OK, Marussia haven't been much better at looking after their drivers either, but at least they've been more honest about their problems - added to that, Marussia have had the smallest budget and largest financial problems in F1 for some time and are, nevertheless, managing to hold their own against Caterham. The fact that they've also had the courage to take Bernie to task over the Concorde Agreement - they are still fighting for better terms for the minnows in F1 - is admirable too, since most of the larger outfits knuckled down to Bernie and CVC without a fight.

mario's post made me think how it's a bit odd that I do not find myself supporting Force India (nor seem to do many other people here or, anyway, in general) very much; since they've certainly done an awesome job turning the weakest outfit of the sport into a stable consistent midfielder season after season, without an huge influx of money or losing their 'identity'. Overall they've been perhaps the 'best' team since they started, considering their circumstances.

I guess it's the less imaginative driver choices they've been making that is the main reason for the lack of support by most. People simply tend to judge any 'better' team via their drivers - and Sutil, di Resta, Liuzzi never were the fan favorites...even Hülkenberg had to re-gain the support lost at Williams during his season in Force India.

giraurd wrote:mario's post made me think how it's a bit odd that I do not find myself supporting Force India (nor seem to do many other people here or, anyway, in general) very much; since they've certainly done an awesome job turning the weakest outfit of the sport into a stable consistent midfielder season after season, without an huge influx of money or losing their 'identity'. Overall they've been perhaps the 'best' team since they started, considering their circumstances.

I guess it's the less imaginative driver choices they've been making that is the main reason for the lack of support by most. People simply tend to judge any 'better' team via their drivers - and Sutil, di Resta, Liuzzi never were the fan favorites...even Hülkenberg had to re-gain the support lost at Williams during his season in Force India.

The drivers are definately a problem, but to me, Force India, despite its massive improvement, gets lost in the shuffle. Its easy to remember the good teams (Ferrari, Red Bull, Lotus, Merc), and being F1Rejectsites, the minnows (Marussis, Catherham), and Mclaren and Williams, have History despite they're recent hiccups, and Sauber, has (in modern times) always been here just always will be (IMO) but Toro Rosso and Force India are those "oh yea they race too" teams, that are easy to forget (Toro Rosso slightly less so because they were Minardi once). Seeing Di Resta pick up a 4th this year had me go wtf? despite the fact that F1 does have a pretty damn good car this year. They're just too anonymous IMO. And personally, I have never gotten over them going from Jordan to Jordan-Midland to Midland to Spyker to Force India in five straight seasons. That was just crazy.