Grand Prix Rejects

I'm sick of people moaning that Vettel is "lucky" or that he gets superior equipment to Webber. So much so that I looked it up. By my count, since the partnership started, Vettel has retired through car failures at Hungary 2009, Europe 2009, Australia 2010, Korea 2010, Abu Dhabi 2011, Europe 2012, Italy 2012 and Britain 2013. That's eight retirements, five of which were from the lead (in bold). Conversely, Webber has retired through car failures at USA 2012 and China 2013. That's two retirements, none of which were from the lead (in bold). Who's lucky now?

GwilymJJames wrote:I'm sick of people moaning that Vettel is "lucky" or that he gets superior equipment to Webber. So much so that I looked it up. By my count, since the partnership started, Vettel has retired through car failures at Hungary 2009, Europe 2009, Australia 2010, Korea 2010, Abu Dhabi 2011, Europe 2012, Italy 2012 and Britain 2013. That's eight retirements, five of which were from the lead (in bold). Conversely, Webber has retired through car failures at USA 2012 and China 2013. That's two retirements, none of which were from the lead (in bold). Who's lucky now?

Hush, you'll upset the Webber-fans. Didn't you know, not being negative about Vettel is not allowed around here.

DonTirri wrote:

GwilymJJames wrote:I'm sick of people moaning that Vettel is "lucky" or that he gets superior equipment to Webber. So much so that I looked it up. By my count, since the partnership started, Vettel has retired through car failures at Hungary 2009, Europe 2009, Australia 2010, Korea 2010, Abu Dhabi 2011, Europe 2012, Italy 2012 and Britain 2013. That's eight retirements, five of which were from the lead (in bold). Conversely, Webber has retired through car failures at USA 2012 and China 2013. That's two retirements, none of which were from the lead (in bold). Who's lucky now?

Hush, you'll upset the Webber-fans. Didn't you know, not being negative about Vettel is not allowed around here.

Before you ask, my sig is on a sarcastic mood. I just noticed it and thought it would be funny to sig it considering the current state of things.

Pshh, the only reason Vettel is unpopular amongst the majority of F1 fans is because of the heads of the Red Bull team. I've found that the things that Horner, Marko, etc, say give Vettel a bad vibe. Move him to Ferrari and the tifosi will fall over head over heels for him. Ditto for McLaren, and anyone else.

Aerospeed [JerMcC] wrote:Pshh, the only reason Vettel is unpopular amongst the majority of F1 fans is because of the heads of the Red Bull team. I've found that the things that Horner, Marko, etc, say give Vettel a bad vibe. Move him to Ferrari and the tifosi will fall over head over heels for him. Ditto for McLaren, and anyone else.

Both moves also have the prospect of making him less likely to win, thus decreasing his hateability considerably

Aerospeed [JerMcC] wrote:Pshh, the only reason Vettel is unpopular amongst the majority of F1 fans is because of the heads of the Red Bull team. I've found that the things that Horner, Marko, etc, say give Vettel a bad vibe. Move him to Ferrari and the tifosi will fall over head over heels for him. Ditto for McLaren, and anyone else.

Yeah. Remember when the tifosi said Alesi was worth a thousand Schumachers?

DonTirri wrote:Both moves also have the prospect of making him less likely to win, thus decreasing his hateability considerably

I think you missed his point.

DonTirri wrote:

Aerospeed [JerMcC] wrote:Pshh, the only reason Vettel is unpopular amongst the majority of F1 fans is because of the heads of the Red Bull team. I've found that the things that Horner, Marko, etc, say give Vettel a bad vibe. Move him to Ferrari and the tifosi will fall over head over heels for him. Ditto for McLaren, and anyone else.

Both moves also have the prospect of making him less likely to win, thus decreasing his hateability considerably

Your point is, Mr Tirri? That to win a lot means you are hated?

pasta_maldonado wrote:

DonTirri wrote:

Aerospeed [JerMcC] wrote:Pshh, the only reason Vettel is unpopular amongst the majority of F1 fans is because of the heads of the Red Bull team. I've found that the things that Horner, Marko, etc, say give Vettel a bad vibe. Move him to Ferrari and the tifosi will fall over head over heels for him. Ditto for McLaren, and anyone else.

Both moves also have the prospect of making him less likely to win, thus decreasing his hateability considerably

Your point is, Mr Tirri? That to win a lot means you are hated?

His dominance is certainly one of (not the only, but one of) the reasons he's disliked.

UgncreativeUsergname wrote:

pasta_maldonado wrote:Your point is, Mr Tirri? That to win a lot means you are hated?

His dominance is certainly one of (not the only, but one of) the reasons he's disliked.

As with predecessor Schumacher.

pasta_maldonado wrote:

DonTirri wrote:

Aerospeed [JerMcC] wrote:Pshh, the only reason Vettel is unpopular amongst the majority of F1 fans is because of the heads of the Red Bull team. I've found that the things that Horner, Marko, etc, say give Vettel a bad vibe. Move him to Ferrari and the tifosi will fall over head over heels for him. Ditto for McLaren, and anyone else.

Both moves also have the prospect of making him less likely to win, thus decreasing his hateability considerably

Your point is, Mr Tirri? That to win a lot means you are hated?

My point is that for some reason Vettel's popularity began falling as his number of wins began rising. In 09 he was liked. In 2010 he was disliked. In 2011 he was downright vilified.

I don't like Vettel partly because he seems to be extremely egotistical and has way too much sense of entitlement but also because a lot of the people within Red Bull (especially Marko) seem like idiots.

I used to like Vettel back in 2009 and early 2010, but Horner and Marko really damaged his image with the amount of rubbish that went on within Red Bull during 2010, and it hasn't recovered. Turkey and Britain 2010 was the time I stopped supporting Vettel.

It's like he's conformed and became part of the machine, rather than being the breath of fresh air he undoubtedly was in 2009.

DonTirri wrote:My point is that for some reason Vettel's popularity began falling as his number of wins began rising. In 09 he was liked. In 2010 he was disliked. In 2011 he was downright vilified.

I'd argue that a lot of the dislike stems from his conduct following his clash with Webber in Turkey 2010. He caused the crash, yet was protected by the team, despite most everyone outside of Red Bull seeing clearly that it was his fault. It kind of shattered the golden boy image for most people, such as myself. Then, the ridiculous wing fiasco at Britain just sealed the deal.

Salamander wrote:

DonTirri wrote:My point is that for some reason Vettel's popularity began falling as his number of wins began rising. In 09 he was liked. In 2010 he was disliked. In 2011 he was downright vilified.

I'd argue that a lot of the dislike stems from his conduct following his clash with Webber in Turkey 2010. He caused the crash, yet was protected by the team, despite most everyone outside of Red Bull seeing clearly that it was his fault. It kind of shattered the golden boy image for most people, such as myself. Then, the ridiculous wing fiasco at Britain just sealed the deal.

That is the sort of thing that would lead me to also argue that, whilst Vettel may have done a few things that have antagonised some (such as his response to the use of team orders by the team earlier this year), I think that most of the frustration stems from a dislike of the team that is then reflected onto the most public face of the team, which is Vettel.
Added to that, since he has effectively been the lead driver since 2010, the team is, inevitably, going to take decisions aimed at maximising his performance, and therefore their chances of the WDC, that may impact negatively on Webber. Once again, given Webber's popularity amongst the fan base, that sense of injustice that ensues from that rebounds onto the recipient of that favoured status, Vettel, and therefore helps fuel that sense of discontent.

Aerospeed [JerMcC] wrote:Pshh, the only reason Vettel is unpopular amongst the majority of F1 fans is because of the heads of the Red Bull team. I've found that the things that Horner, Marko, etc, say give Vettel a bad vibe. Move him to Ferrari and the tifosi will fall over head over heels for him. Ditto for McLaren, and anyone else.

Has anyone noticed how the names Marko, Horner and Vettel always, just ALWAYS, appear as the triumvirate of pure F1 evil but for some reason the name Newey does not? Every time some idiot begins an anti-Red Bull rant they invoke the unholy coven of The Three and yet Ive never noticed Newey being abused even though without him its less likely RBR would be where they are.

I just wonder if that disproves the suggestion that the anti-RBR gang came to be simply because of RBRs success?

CoopsII wrote:

Aerospeed [JerMcC] wrote:Pshh, the only reason Vettel is unpopular amongst the majority of F1 fans is because of the heads of the Red Bull team. I've found that the things that Horner, Marko, etc, say give Vettel a bad vibe. Move him to Ferrari and the tifosi will fall over head over heels for him. Ditto for McLaren, and anyone else.

Has anyone noticed how the names Marko, Horner and Vettel always, just ALWAYS, appear as the triumvirate of pure F1 evil but for some reason the name Newey does not? Every time some idiot begins an anti-Red Bull rant they invoke the unholy coven of The Three and yet Ive never noticed Newey being abused even though without him its less likely RBR would be where they are.

I just wonder if that disproves the suggestion that the anti-RBR gang came to be simply because of RBRs success?

That's because Marko and Horner are pretty much pro-Vettel. Newey doesn't come across as partisan. To me, he just looks like he wants his cars to be at the front, no matter who does the winning. Of course, he might be preferring Vettel, but he makes sure no one notices.

eurobrun wrote:I don't like Vettel partly because he seems to be extremely egotistical and has way too much sense of entitlement but also because a lot of the people within Red Bull (especially Marko) seem like idiots.

A perfectly valid reason not to like a driver besides the driver's dominance.

tommykl wrote:Newey doesn't come across as partisan. To me, he just looks like he wants his cars to be at the front, no matter who does the winning. Of course, he might be preferring Vettel, but he makes sure no one notices.

This is a reason why I like Adrian Newey. He does his job, which is designing World Championship pedigree cars, and he succeeds in doing his job most of the time. He isn't political.

What I'm saying is Adrian Newey is not Helmut Marko or Christian Horner.

go_Rubens wrote:What I'm saying is Adrian Newey is not Helmut Marko or Christian Horner.

Reminds me of my proposed 'Kimi Raikkonnen Is Not...' thread. Anyway. As was pointed out before he must have opinions but is clearly better at managing them then the others.

CoopsII wrote:

go_Rubens wrote:What I'm saying is Adrian Newey is not Helmut Marko or Christian Horner.

Reminds me of my proposed 'Kimi Raikkonnen Is Not...' thread.

That's what I was trying to do, I guess.

CoopsII wrote:As was pointed out before he must have opinions but is clearly better at managing them then the others.

Right. Do you ever hear of Newey getting involved in the controversies? Heck, you don't. That makes him better than Horner and Marko.

go_Rubens wrote:

CoopsII wrote:As was pointed out before he must have opinions but is clearly better at managing them then the others.

Right. Do you ever hear of Newey getting involved in the controversies? Heck, you don't. That makes him better than Horner and Marko.

Forgive me if I am mistaken, but I believe that Newey was involved in the controversy that erupted in 2010 in Silverstone when Red Bull switched the front wings from Webber's to Vettel's car (I believe that Newey did recommend switching wings to Horner).

East Londoner wrote:I used to like Vettel back in 2009 and early 2010, but Horner and Marko really damaged his image with the amount of rubbish that went on within Red Bull during 2010, and it hasn't recovered. Turkey and Britain 2010 was the time I stopped supporting Vettel.

It's like he's conformed and became part of the machine, rather than being the breath of fresh air he undoubtedly was in 2009.

That's pretty much how it went for me. It's how his personality, being a team player, and the favoritisim over Webber, have really made me loose respect for him gradually over the years. If it wasn't for that, then I would probably have a lot more respect for him.

mario wrote:

go_Rubens wrote:

CoopsII wrote:As was pointed out before he must have opinions but is clearly better at managing them then the others.

Right. Do you ever hear of Newey getting involved in the controversies? Heck, you don't. That makes him better than Horner and Marko.

Forgive me if I am mistaken, but I believe that Newey was involved in the controversy that erupted in 2010 in Silverstone when Red Bull switched the front wings from Webber's to Vettel's car (I believe that Newey did recommend switching wings to Horner).

Yeah, but that was one of the only things he did. Horner and Marko are much more in the spotlight than Newey is. For the wrong reasons.

go_Rubens wrote:Do you ever hear of Newey getting involved in the controversies? Heck, you don't. That makes him better than Horner and Marko.

And more likely to outlast both of them. You could easily replace Horner and Marko and not miss a beat, Newey on the other hand...

Adrian Newey is the main reason for Red Bull's success.

eurobrun wrote:Adrian Newey is the main reason for Red Bull's success.

And for McLaren and Williams in the 1990s.

eurobrun wrote:Adrian Newey is the main reason for Red Bull's success.

I would suggest that you do Prodromou a slight disservice by not mentioning him in the frame too - as Head of Aerodynamics, which is the area in which Red Bull has been strongest in recent years, he has been fairly influential in his own right when it comes to the success of Red Bull. Ferrari are rumoured to have tried poaching him a few times in the past, but it appears that he has made it clear to them that he preferred the flexibility that came with his role at Red Bull that Ferrari would not match.
I do agree, though, that Newey would be a difficult individual to replace as and when he eventually decides to leave the sport or the team - I guess that Allison would probably have been on most peoples lists as a potential alternative, but he might now be out of the frame depending on where he has gone. As an aside, it is a bit of a surprise that, over two months since he handed in his notice, nobody seems to be any the wiser as to where he is heading - you would have thought that there might have been some signs by now as to what he was up to.

Kimi would flatten Vettel in a Red Bull.

Head management knows this, and will end up choosing a pliable/up and coming number two Ricciardo instead (although not only for this reason admittedly).

We are all sleep-walking into what is fast becoming worse than the Schumacher 2000-2004 era in terms of predictability and lack of sportmanship/competition.

SgtPepper wrote:We are all sleep-walking into what is fast becoming worse than the Schumacher 2000-2004 era in terms of predictability and lack of sportmanship/competition.

This season really has been a disappointment compared to last year.

good_Ralf wrote:There are two main ingredients for a classic season of F1.

1) A close championship battle between two or three teams
2) Multiple teams battling for podiums and wins

1) Last year, we had Red Bull, McLaren, Ferrari and to some extent Lotus in the hunt for the championship.
This year, McLaren suck and Ferrari and Lotus have excellent race pace but not qualifying pace and they also have a few weekends where they are off the pace. Mercedes are new to challenging for titles. Red Bull have a quick car and driver that are consistent from race to race and have rather good pace on both Saturday and Sunday.
Red Bull and Vettel are slowly pulling away from their rivals and as soon as Bahrain and especially Canada I got the feeling that the title fight is as good as over.

2) Last year, midfield teams such as Sauber, Williams and Force India scored podiums and were even challenging for wins.
This year, Sauber and Williams now have cars that are hardly able to even score points and Force India are scoring points consistently but as evidenced by Australia, Bahrain and Britain they simply haven't got the pace to score podiums, their first since that singleton score in 2009.

The killer stat for me is that just 8 drivers from 4 teams (Red Bull, Mercedes, Lotus and Ferrari) have scored podiums this year and the more races that take place and the more those same teams get on the podium the more it annoys me.

SgtPepper wrote:Kimi would flatten Vettel in a Red Bull.

No. Just no. From what we have seen Räikkönen's and Vettel's basic speeds are both relatively equal (and also a cut above the rest). However, Kimi would lose his advantages that make him able to challenge Vettel in the Lotus - tyre-saving. Because if he can do it to the extent that he does at Lotus right now, then the Red Bull is friendly to the tyres and Vettel won't have significant tyre problems - and if the next RBR car is not tyre friendly, then Kimi will only be able to do so much.

While I am obviously not saying that Vettel would take Räikkönen to town and back again without any problems, it is foolish to assume that Kimi would do the same to Vettel. It would be a lot closer than anything Mark Webber ever managed to do against Vettel, with perhaps a slight advantage to Vettel in terms of work ethic and his familiarity with the team.

Klon wrote:

SgtPepper wrote:Kimi would flatten Vettel in a Red Bull.

No. Just no. From what we have seen Räikkönen's and Vettel's basic speeds are both relatively equal (and also a cut above the rest). However, Kimi would lose his advantages that make him able to challenge Vettel in the Lotus - tyre-saving. Because if he can do it to the extent that he does at Lotus right now, then the Red Bull is friendly to the tyres and Vettel won't have significant tyre problems - and if the next RBR car is not tyre friendly, then Kimi will only be able to do so much.

While I am obviously not saying that Vettel would take Räikkönen to town and back again without any problems, it is foolish to assume that Kimi would do the same to Vettel. It would be a lot closer than anything Mark Webber ever managed to do against Vettel, with perhaps a slight advantage to Vettel in terms of work ethic and his familiarity with the team.

Ok it was a little OTT saying 'flatten,' but one must take into account the capacity the Red Bull may have been flattering both drivers. Hypothetically, it could argued that Webber lost his mojo in 2011 due to being beaten in 2010, and was previously relatively on par - and I'm sure most will agree that Kimi is faster than Webber. If we regard these variables, I think there's certainly a case to be made that Kimi would have the beating of Vettel after a few races of bedding down in the team. And the Lotus' advantage of tyre preservation would also be rendered irrelevant if both were in (presumably) the fastest car.

good_Ralf wrote:

SgtPepper wrote:We are all sleep-walking into what is fast becoming worse than the Schumacher 2000-2004 era in terms of predictability and lack of sportmanship/competition.

This season really has been a disappointment compared to last year.

good_Ralf wrote:There are two main ingredients for a classic season of F1.

1) A close championship battle between two or three teams
2) Multiple teams battling for podiums and wins

1) Last year, we had Red Bull, McLaren, Ferrari and to some extent Lotus in the hunt for the championship.
This year, McLaren suck and Ferrari and Lotus have excellent race pace but not qualifying pace and they also have a few weekends where they are off the pace. Mercedes are new to challenging for titles. Red Bull have a quick car and driver that are consistent from race to race and have rather good pace on both Saturday and Sunday.
Red Bull and Vettel are slowly pulling away from their rivals and as soon as Bahrain and especially Canada I got the feeling that the title fight is as good as over.

2) Last year, midfield teams such as Sauber, Williams and Force India scored podiums and were even challenging for wins.
This year, Sauber and Williams now have cars that are hardly able to even score points and Force India are scoring points consistently but as evidenced by Australia, Bahrain and Britain they simply haven't got the pace to score podiums, their first since that singleton score in 2009.

The killer stat for me is that just 8 drivers from 4 teams (Red Bull, Mercedes, Lotus and Ferrari) have scored podiums this year and the more races that take place and the more those same teams get on the podium the more it annoys me.

Agree completely, although I would argue that a championship like 1988 would also rank as a classic despite the Mclaren domination, as we had the two best drivers in the same seat - both with vastly different approaches, styles and personalities. I would consider 2012 similar to 2003 - a generally even split between the front runners until a decisive event (tyre decision/Asia update) leans the championship decisively in one team's favour.

I know the first part of 2012 can be considered a 'tyre lottery', but it was certainly refreshing to see such a wide variety of teams reaching the podium/winning, or looking close to this. The days of a Sauber pushing for victories seem a distant memory...

SgtPepper wrote:We are all sleep-walking into what is fast becoming worse than the Schumacher 2000-2004 era in terms of predictability and lack of sportmanship/competition.

Which in a way makes RBR and Vettels work even more impressive as, despite the odd headline-making spat, Webber is not a designated Number 2. Yes, yes, please nobody start reeling off a tonne of invective as Im well aware of some of the things that have gone on but none of it compares to how MSC ran Ferrari with a clear Number 2 driver and how he got Bridgestone to dance to his tune. IIRC he even advised some circuits on revisions to some corners which some critics argued were to his advantage. I mean, jeez, the guy even changed the race tracks to suit his driving style

CoopsII wrote:

SgtPepper wrote:We are all sleep-walking into what is fast becoming worse than the Schumacher 2000-2004 era in terms of predictability and lack of sportmanship/competition.

Which in a way makes RBR and Vettels work even more impressive as, despite the odd headline-making spat, Webber is not a designated Number 2. Yes, yes, please nobody start reeling off a tonne of invective as Im well aware of some of the things that have gone on but none of it compares to how MSC ran Ferrari with a clear Number 2 driver and how he got Bridgestone to dance to his tune. IIRC he even advised some circuits on revisions to some corners which some critics argued were to his advantage. I mean, jeez, the guy even changed the race tracks to suit his driving style

I hadn't heard of Schumacher advising on changes to tracks, and if that's true, then it's amazing one man could have such sway.

Not having an official number 2 driver is irrelevant if a driver is treated, and blatantly considered as one (blah blah 2010 silverstone etc etc) - it just makes Red Bull more disingenous/dishonest/PR conscious about it than Ferrari's blatantly poor treatment of their number 2s.

I don't understand how being less dominant that Schumacher is somehow more impressive?

CoopsII wrote:

SgtPepper wrote:We are all sleep-walking into what is fast becoming worse than the Schumacher 2000-2004 era in terms of predictability and lack of sportmanship/competition.

Which in a way makes RBR and Vettels work even more impressive as, despite the odd headline-making spat, Webber is not a designated Number 2. Yes, yes, please nobody start reeling off a tonne of invective as Im well aware of some of the things that have gone on but none of it compares to how MSC ran Ferrari with a clear Number 2 driver and how he got Bridgestone to dance to his tune. IIRC he even advised some circuits on revisions to some corners which some critics argued were to his advantage. I mean, jeez, the guy even changed the race tracks to suit his driving style

Now that is pure genius. Develop a reputation as the best, get consulted on circuit changes because he has the reputation, change the circuit to his liking, win on said circuit, thus building on his reputation. Impressive stuff Schuey

Who better to consult than the greatest driver of all time?

Sublime_FA11C wrote:Who better to consult than the greatest driver of all time?

What, Ukyo Katayama?

East Londoner wrote:

Sublime_FA11C wrote:Who better to consult than the greatest driver of all time?

What, Ukyo Katayama?

Surely you guys mean Markus Winkelhock?

Legend has it he won the 2007 German Grand Prix, but Bernie had it covered up due to protestations of the front running teams at such a travesty. That's why the race was stopped, to give them time to film a new version...

East Londoner wrote:

Sublime_FA11C wrote:Who better to consult than the greatest driver of all time?

What, Susie Stoddart-Wolff-in-Sheep's-clothing?

fixed

SgtPepper wrote:

CoopsII wrote:

SgtPepper wrote:We are all sleep-walking into what is fast becoming worse than the Schumacher 2000-2004 era in terms of predictability and lack of sportmanship/competition.

Which in a way makes RBR and Vettels work even more impressive as, despite the odd headline-making spat, Webber is not a designated Number 2. Yes, yes, please nobody start reeling off a tonne of invective as Im well aware of some of the things that have gone on but none of it compares to how MSC ran Ferrari with a clear Number 2 driver and how he got Bridgestone to dance to his tune. IIRC he even advised some circuits on revisions to some corners which some critics argued were to his advantage. I mean, jeez, the guy even changed the race tracks to suit his driving style

I hadn't heard of Schumacher advising on changes to tracks, and if that's true, then it's amazing one man could have such sway.

Not having an official number 2 driver is irrelevant if a driver is treated, and blatantly considered as one (blah blah 2010 silverstone etc etc) - it just makes Red Bull more disingenous/dishonest/PR conscious about it than Ferrari's blatantly poor treatment of their number 2s.

I don't understand how being less dominant that Schumacher is somehow more impressive?

I believe that the consultations were over some modifications to the Nurburgring, mainly about the replacement of the old Castrol chicane with the modern layout and also a slight modification to the final corner (a small change in the radius of curvature).

However, it should be noted that it would not be surprising if Schumacher was consulted over the modifications to the circuit in 2002 - as the Chairman of the Grand Prix Drivers Association at the time, he would have probably been called in to act as the drivers representative and approve the changes to the circuit on their behalf.

good_Ralf wrote:Channel with a bunch of videos suggesting why Schuey didn't deserve all the success he had.

Maybe. But you don't win 91 Grands Prix and 7 World Championships without a lot of talent.