What If?

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 01 Sep 2015, 10:14

Simtek wrote:
Whiteshore wrote:the abomination called Pastor Maldonado

Out. Now.

How can the only person to win a GP for Williams in over a decade be considered an abomination?! :evil:

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 01 Sep 2015, 10:41

He has more GP wins than Nico Hulkenberg, Romain Grosjean, Valtteri Bottas, and Sergio Perez combined.

Whiteshore · Post by **Whiteshore** » 01 Sep 2015, 11:06

I personally have a low opinion on Maldonado and said drivers have better reputations and are more consistent than the Crashtor TBH.

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 01 Sep 2015, 11:16

And I'm sure they would all rather have the GP win.

Nessafox · Post by **Nessafox** » 01 Sep 2015, 11:23

But over 30 years, Maldonado is the one they're going to remember. Hülkenberg has a Le Mans win though, i seriously want to see Pastor trying to beat that.
I mean seriously, i really want to see that!

Post by **tommykl** » 01 Sep 2015, 21:51

Salamander wrote:He has more GP wins than Nico Hulkenberg, Romain Grosjean, Valtteri Bottas, and Sergio Perez combined.

And Peter Gethin had more GP wins than Chris Amon, Jean Behra, Stefan Johansson and Nick Heidfeld combined. Your point being?

AdrianSutil · Post by **AdrianSutil** » 01 Sep 2015, 23:00

tommykl wrote:
Salamander wrote:He has more GP wins than Nico Hulkenberg, Romain Grosjean, Valtteri Bottas, and Sergio Perez combined.

And Peter Gethin had more GP wins than Chris Amon, Jean Behra, Stefan Johansson and Nick Heidfeld combined. Your point being?

Point being is that Maldonado can look back on his career in 30 years and go, "yeah, well I won a Formula 1 race". I'd rather have a career like Maldonado over Hulkenberg.

Post by **Ataxia** » 01 Sep 2015, 23:27

I'd rather have the career of a driver with more integrity and a stronger reputation (ie. Hulkenberg) than the career of a man who was useless every race except one.

People seem to revert to the "yeah but Maldonado won a race" argument. However, and I did a bit of maths on this the other day in chat to prove a point, that against Bottas and Grosjean (a calibre of driver many suggest are just a step below the real cream of the crop) Maldonado has scored on average 27% of his teammates' points. So, if we can extrapolate, we can perhaps biasedly suggest that Williams would have challenged Mercedes for 5th in the WCC had Senna been dropped for someone not completely hopeless.

On that day in Catalunya in 2012, I believe there must have been a rare sighting of some airborne porcine creatures flying around a blue moon. Maldonado spends most of his time either being distinctly average or being slightly quick but ultimately pissing his speed against the wall. The guy could be good, but the fact that he outright refuses to accept his mistakes and learn from them means that he'll never move forward as a driver. As it stands, Maldonado represents a thirty-million-pound waste of space. If Tracey Emin was asked to make a racing driver for an installation at the Tate Modern, it would be Pastor. Good for one burst of fame and a bit of cash, but otherwise a burden to the owner.

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 01 Sep 2015, 23:50

Still, the point remains - sure, Hulkenberg has a solid reputation for being a very solid, quick driver. But he can't say that he went toe-to-toe versus Fernando Alonso at the height of his powers, in a strong car, for a Grand Prix win. The Williams might've had the best of the tyres that weekend, yes, but on paper the only car that should've beaten Alonso in the race was Hamilton's McLaren. The vast majority of the rest of his career is a disappointment, but you know what? So are Hulkenberg's and Grosjean's - to rather lesser degrees, of course - but they've both had opportunities to win Grands Prix, and their fault or not, they have not won one and with each passing race, the chance of them doing so seems to dwindle. That one race was the only chance Pastor Maldonado was ever going to get to win a Grand Prix, and he pulled it off in the face of the best opposition F1 could offer. That, if nothing else, deserves respect.

Aguaman · Post by **Aguaman** » 02 Sep 2015, 09:03

I would rather a win than being remembered as a consistent solid driver. I can sit home and look at my trophy that said '2012 Spanish GP winner: Pastor Maldonado'. I mean Marin Cilic won a Grand Slam I don't think he cares about how he is viewed.

Post by **tommykl** » 02 Sep 2015, 09:32

This wrote:But over 30 years, Maldonado is the one they're going to remember.

Because he won a race?

I'm sorry, but there are many drivers without a win who are better remembered than their contemporaries who won one single race. I'll bring up Chris Amon again, who is better remembered (and usually higher rated) than the likes of Peter Gethin, Ludovico Scarfiotti or Jean-Pierre Beltoise.

Slightly more controversially, I can't be the only one who rates Tom Pryce more highly than Jochen Mass, Vittorio Brambilla and even Gunnar Nilsson.

CoopsII · Post by **CoopsII** » 02 Sep 2015, 09:47

I think Maldonado may well be remembered in 30 years time.

Just not necessarily for that win tho'

Whiteshore · Post by **Whiteshore** » 02 Sep 2015, 10:41

What if Brawn didn't make it? Would Vettel be a 5-time world champion? What happens to Barrichello and Button? Go to IndyCar? Le Mans?

tBone · Post by **tBone** » 02 Sep 2015, 11:03

Whiteshore wrote:What if Brawn didn't make it? Would Vettel be a 5-time world champion? What happens to Barrichello and Button? Go to IndyCar? Le Mans?

I could see one or both of them ending up at Lotus or Virgin, instead of Trulli, Kovalainen or Glock. Toyota might have won some races, Vettel and Webber will have their 2010/2011 battle sooner, possibly with one of them leaving the team.

Aguaman · Post by **Aguaman** » 02 Sep 2015, 13:04

CoopsII wrote:I think Maldonado may well be remembered in 30 years time.

Just not necessarily for that win tho'

Oh he will. Last guy to win at WilliamsF1.

Just sayin'

or F1 Champ 2016 - Renault.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 02 Sep 2015, 20:01

Aguaman wrote:
CoopsII wrote:I think Maldonado may well be remembered in 30 years time.

Just not necessarily for that win tho'

Oh he will. Last guy to win at WilliamsF1.

Just sayin'.

Do NOT make it so! You cannot be serious!

Nessafox · Post by **Nessafox** » 02 Sep 2015, 20:24

tommykl wrote:
This wrote:But over 30 years, Maldonado is the one they're going to remember.

Because he won a race?

I'm sorry, but there are many drivers without a win who are better remembered than their contemporaries who won one single race. I'll bring up Chris Amon again, who is better remembered (and usually higher rated) than the likes of Peter Gethin, Ludovico Scarfiotti or Jean-Pierre Beltoise.

Slightly more controversially, I can't be the only one who rates Tom Pryce more highly than Jochen Mass, Vittorio Brambilla and even Gunnar Nilsson.

Because your knowledge reaches a lot further than most people. For most People, Amon is just as forgettable as the majority of drivers of his era. Most semi-casual fans (those who look up a bit of history) only read the results.

Also, the fact that Maldonado is one of the most hated drivers of his era, automatically makes him legendary, whilst the general opinion on Hülkenberg is 'no opinion'.
Now on the other hand. Nico Rosberg has won multiple races, and nobody remembers him.

Aguaman · Post by **Aguaman** » 03 Sep 2015, 02:21

How can you forget Nico Rosberg? 3 times in a row in Monaco and

I mean come on.

Anyway What if - Stewart and Mika screwed up in the 1999 European GP and didn't score
1 - Jarno Trulli
2 - Ralf Schumacher
3 - Marc Gene
4 - Eddie Irvine
5 - Ricardo Zonta
6 - Olivier Panis

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 03 Sep 2015, 08:11

Aguaman wrote:Anyway What if - Stewart and Mika screwed up in the 1999 European GP and didn't score
1 - Jarno Trulli
2 - Ralf Schumacher
3 - Marc Gene
4 - Eddie Irvine
5 - Ricardo Zonta
6 - Olivier Panis

Luca Badoer could have won such a race.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 03 Sep 2015, 08:35

Salamander wrote:
Aguaman wrote:Anyway What if - Stewart and Mika screwed up in the 1999 European GP and didn't score
1 - Jarno Trulli
2 - Ralf Schumacher
3 - Marc Gene
4 - Eddie Irvine
5 - Ricardo Zonta
6 - Olivier Panis

Luca Badoer could have won such a race.

More impressive would be... If Olivier Panis's engine had blown up at the 1995 Australian GP and somehow Gianni Morbidelli had spun off as a consequence a couple of laps before Damon crossed the finish line, 4th 5th and 6th would have been Minardi, Forti and Pacific! (Lamy, Diniz and Gachot)

Now how would Simtek have fared in that race had they made it to the end of the season and got one car to the end of the race?

Izzyeviel · Post by **Izzyeviel** » 03 Sep 2015, 09:36

Aguaman wrote:I would rather a win than being remembered as a consistent solid driver. I can sit home and look at my trophy that said '2012 Spanish GP winner: Pastor Maldonado'. I mean Marin Cilic won a Grand Slam I don't think he cares about how he is viewed.

Agree. I remember Alessandro Nannini, not his crashes, but his win and performances in 1989/90.

I don't recall any of his team mates not called Nelson Piquet.

Izzyeviel · Post by **Izzyeviel** » 03 Sep 2015, 09:39

Basically, Pastor Maldonado is this generation's Andrea De Cesaris

MorbidelliObese · Post by **MorbidelliObese** » 03 Sep 2015, 10:52

Izzyeviel wrote:Basically, Pastor Maldonado is this generation's Andrea De Cesaris

Aside from the win that's a good comparison, quick on his day but crash happy and therefore owing his presence on the grid to the funding he brings.

Long Beach '82 was probably the closest de Cesaris got to Maldonado's 2012 Spanish GP, came out of nowhere to stick it on pole, led for a bit, lost the lead to a then double world champion, ran second for a bit, except where Pastor retook the lead, Andrea binned it again.

ibsey · Post by **ibsey** » 03 Sep 2015, 11:27

MorbidelliObese wrote:
Long Beach '82 was probably the closest de Cesaris got to Maldonado's 2012 Spanish GP, came out of nowhere to stick it on pole, led for a bit, lost the lead to a then double world champion, ran second for a bit, except where Pastor retook the lead, Andrea binned it again.

Rumor has it that the reason Andrea lost the lead in that race was because he was too busy waving at a backmarker that held him up, which meant he didn't change gear at the ideal time & Lauda got passed as a result. :facepalm:

Aguaman · Post by **Aguaman** » 03 Sep 2015, 11:57

Izzyeviel wrote:
Aguaman wrote:I would rather a win than being remembered as a consistent solid driver. I can sit home and look at my trophy that said '2012 Spanish GP winner: Pastor Maldonado'. I mean Marin Cilic won a Grand Slam I don't think he cares about how he is viewed.

Agree. I remember Alessandro Nannini, not his crashes, but his win and performances in 1989/90.

I don't recall any of his team mates not called Nelson Piquet.

F1 fans can be a bitter bunch. Vettel is going to be happy with his 4x championships, Maldonado will be happy with his 1 win and maybe more. Hulkenberg would rather a win than being viewed as 'solid' driver by fans.

Whiteshore · Post by **Whiteshore** » 03 Sep 2015, 12:12

What if Ryan Hunter-Reay made it to Formula 1? Would he have been a reject?

Jan Magnussen · Post by **Rob Dylan** » 03 Sep 2015, 12:43

What if this forum hadn't have been resurrected? Would we all be on F1Fanatic instead? :deletraz:

Post by **Bobby Doorknobs** » 03 Sep 2015, 13:01

Rob Dylan wrote:What if this forum hadn't have been resurrected? Would we all be on F1Fanatic instead?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2T4cMt6pO8

girry · Post by **girry** » 03 Sep 2015, 13:47

Whiteshore wrote:What if Ryan Hunter-Reay made it to Formula 1? Would he have been a reject?

Most likely yes. RHR is quite inconsistent even to IndyCar's standards, and he really started to shine only in his later years, think people would have run out of patience in F1 after a sophomore year at latest, even if he had chosen to go Euro side and become - for example - Red Bull's backed US driver instead of Scott Speed.

Aguaman · Post by **Aguaman** » 03 Sep 2015, 16:22

Whiteshore wrote:What if Ryan Hunter-Reay made it to Formula 1? Would he have been a reject?

Depends which team he ends up in? He if somehow ends up in a car like a McLaren in 2007, then he won't be a reject by the same vein as Andretti.

That being said I have little idea on RHR cause I don't watch IndyCars. For it's F1 or bust.

Post by **tommykl** » 03 Sep 2015, 19:31

Izzyeviel wrote:
Aguaman wrote:I would rather a win than being remembered as a consistent solid driver. I can sit home and look at my trophy that said '2012 Spanish GP winner: Pastor Maldonado'. I mean Marin Cilic won a Grand Slam I don't think he cares about how he is viewed.

Agree. I remember Alessandro Nannini, not his crashes, but his win and performances in 1989/90.

I don't recall any of his team mates not called Nelson Piquet.

Andrea de Cesaris, Adrian Campos, Thierry Boutsen, Johnny Herbert, Emanuele Pirro. And that's without looking them up.

And had de Cesaris won a race, I don't think his reputation as a crash-happy driver would have suddenly disappeared. In fact, it might even be forgotten that he even had won a race. It seems to escape the minds of a lot of people that Andrea scored multiple podiums, and similarly, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the Pastor-bashing crowd of today honestly didn't remember Pastor's win.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 03 Sep 2015, 20:29

tommykl wrote:and similarly, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the Pastor-bashing crowd of today honestly didn't remember Pastor's win.

Those who will remember his win will be Williams fans. I suspect there are few Pastor-bashers amongst the Williams supporters?

Whiteshore · Post by **Whiteshore** » 04 Sep 2015, 11:34

What if Nigel Mansell was paralyzed in that Formula Ford crash?

Aguaman · Post by **Aguaman** » 05 Sep 2015, 04:10

What if in 2006 BMW stayed with Williams and instead someone like Ferrar continued to give Sauber engines.

However

Heidfeld had to drive for Williams-BMW with Rosberg and stay there till 2009 while Webber went to the new Sauber team joining Kubica till 2009. What would happen?

Whiteshore · Post by **Whiteshore** » 05 Sep 2015, 10:29

Aguaman wrote:What if in 2006 BMW stayed with Williams and instead someone like Ferrar continued to give Sauber engines.

However

Heidfeld had to drive for Williams-BMW with Rosberg and stay there till 2009 while Webber went to the new Sauber team joining Kubica till 2009. What would happen?

We are spared Kazuki Nakajima failing to pass the low bars that his father set

What if Didier Pironi decided to take up Indycars or Sports Cars instead of Speedboats? How would he have fared? Could he win the Indy 500 or 24 Hours of Le Mans respectably? Or would he be a midfielder at best?

roblo97 · Post by **roblo97** » 05 Sep 2015, 10:59

Whiteshore wrote:
Aguaman wrote:What if in 2006 BMW stayed with Williams and instead someone like Ferrar continued to give Sauber engines.

However

Heidfeld had to drive for Williams-BMW with Rosberg and stay there till 2009 while Webber went to the new Sauber team joining Kubica till 2009. What would happen?

We are spared Kazuki Nakajima failing to pass the low bars that his father set

What if Didier Pironi decided to take up Indycars or Sports Cars instead of Speedboats? How would he have fared? Could he win the Indy 500 or 24 Hours of Le Mans respectably? Or would he be a midfielder at best?

Pironi had already won Le Mans in the Renault Alpine A44B alongside Jean-Pierre Jaussaud in 1978.

Whiteshore · Post by **Whiteshore** » 05 Sep 2015, 11:00

roblomas52 wrote:
Whiteshore wrote:
Aguaman wrote:What if in 2006 BMW stayed with Williams and instead someone like Ferrar continued to give Sauber engines.

However

Heidfeld had to drive for Williams-BMW with Rosberg and stay there till 2009 while Webber went to the new Sauber team joining Kubica till 2009. What would happen?

We are spared Kazuki Nakajima failing to pass the low bars that his father set

What if Didier Pironi decided to take up Indycars or Sports Cars instead of Speedboats? How would he have fared? Could he win the Indy 500 or 24 Hours of Le Mans respectably? Or would he be a midfielder at best?

Pironi had already won Le Mans in the Renault Alpine A44B alongside Jean-Pierre Jaussaud in 1978.

How would Pironi have fared in Indycars had he taken it up instead of powerboats?

Post by **Bobby Doorknobs** » 05 Sep 2015, 13:24

Whiteshore wrote:We are spared Kazuki Nakajima failing to pass the low bars that his father set

Hey, we celebrate guys like him on this website!

Anyway, it's difficult to say how he would have fared on ovals, but I'd like to think he would have done well on road courses, being as good as he was in F1, but who knows?

Izzyeviel · Post by **Izzyeviel** » 05 Sep 2015, 19:32

Whiteshore wrote:What if Nigel Mansell was paralyzed in that Formula Ford crash?

Derek Warwick, World champion for Williams 1986.
Ricardo Patrese, World Champion for Williams 1992 & 1993.

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 05 Sep 2015, 21:57

Izzyeviel wrote:
Whiteshore wrote:What if Nigel Mansell was paralyzed in that Formula Ford crash?

Derek Warwick, World champion for Williams 1986.
Thierry Boutsen, World Champion for Williams 1992 & 1993.

Fixed.