Grand Prix Rejects

takagi_for_the_win wrote:Looking back at some of the threads from this time last year, it appeared the general consensus was that 2013 was a fairly rubbish season and we couldn't wait for 2014. We had one bloke, of questionable popularity, dominating the sport to an extent not seen for a decade, we had Pirelli tyres that made it impossible to turn up halfway through the race and work out who was where on race pace etc... We all thought the huge reshuffle would be the answer to our prayers and make the sport better. 12 months on, we've lost Marussia and Caterham, Sauber and Enstone are on fairly thin ice, no matter who wins the drivers championship it'll be hugely unpopular and we've this farcical Double Points Abu Dhabi Funtime Bonanza to look forward to, plus a raft of more gimmicks to be introduced for next year.

God I love F1.

Having said that, the on-track action this year has been nothing short of superb. It's just a pity that just about everything else about this season has been terrible.

AustralianStig wrote:Having said that, the on-track action this year has been nothing short of superb. It's just a pity that just about everything else about this season has been terrible.

Basically this. The racing has been amazing, the vast majority of the races have been great, but it's been spoiled by two drivers who I couldn't care less about fighting for the championship, intense fighting between fanboys, retarded gimmicks, politics, and above all else the massive, fundamental flaws with the sport and the management of it really starting to show. It's a shame. It sickens me and it's disheartening to see a sport that I love so much seem to edge closer to total self-destruction.

Mexicola wrote:

AustralianStig wrote:Having said that, the on-track action this year has been nothing short of superb. It's just a pity that just about everything else about this season has been terrible.

Basically this. The racing has been amazing, the vast majority of the races have been great, but it's been spoiled by two drivers who I couldn't care less about fighting for the championship, intense fighting between fanboys, retarded gimmicks, politics, and above all else the massive, fundamental flaws with the sport and the management of it really starting to show. It's a shame. It sickens me and it's disheartening to see a sport that I love so much seem to edge closer to total self-destruction.

And that's not all. With the engine development freeze in place and the existent engine regulations, after some more talks having collapsed, you are all but assured the current Mercedes domination will stay like this for a couple more years. Unless Honda goes against rumours and turns out with a great engine.

I'm looking forward to Double Points Abu Dhabi Funtime Bonanza. Either because people get angry over it and because it reminds of those fun video games and stuff. Not the worst gimmick in sports, nowhere near.

I wonder how refulling would be like with thses pirellis

I'm calling it now. Unless something REALLY drastic happens and SOON, F1 won't see the next decade.

Aguaman wrote:I wonder how refulling would be like with thses pirellis

I think the tyres would last longer due to the lower weight the cars would have during stints. But most importantly, in my opinion, it would bring no benefit to the race as everyone would simply and quickly go to the same optimal fuel strategy.
Personally, i'd hate to see it come back..

DonTirri wrote:I'm calling it now. Unless something REALLY drastic happens and SOON, F1 won't see the next decade.

Pretty much this. I think F1 needs to become GP1 (GP2 cars with a bit more power) in order to survive.

Cynon wrote:

DonTirri wrote:I'm calling it now. Unless something REALLY drastic happens and SOON, F1 won't see the next decade.

Pretty much this. I think F1 needs to become GP1 (GP2 cars with a bit more power) in order to survive.

That reminds me; how dumb is it that the feeder series arent called F2, F3 and F4? Why do they have to be called something that requires me to explain to people in my office their connection to F1?

CoopsII wrote:That reminds me; how dumb is it that the feeder series arent called F2, F3 and F4? Why do they have to be called something that requires me to explain to people in my office their connection to F1?

And how dumb is it that FIA F4 in the UK is called MSA Formula because somebody else beat them to using the name F4?! Who just happened to be the same people who ran F2 a few years ago... And Jonathan Palmer was an FIA champion in F1 back in 1987. Maybe he could continue the tradition of ex-F1 drivers running the sport of F1?

CoopsII wrote:

Cynon wrote:

DonTirri wrote:I'm calling it now. Unless something REALLY drastic happens and SOON, F1 won't see the next decade.

Pretty much this. I think F1 needs to become GP1 (GP2 cars with a bit more power) in order to survive.

That reminds me; how dumb is it that the feeder series arent called F2, F3 and F4? Why do they have to be called something that requires me to explain to people in my office their connection to F1?

Because they're not sanctioned by the FIA, and therefore can't use the "Formula" title. Both were set up by Bernie as a means to generating even more money by effectively "locking out" the support for F1 races at most of the European venues.

AndreaModa wrote:Because they're not sanctioned by the FIA, and therefore can't use the "Formula" title. Both were set up by Bernie as a means to generating even more money by effectively "locking out" the support for F1 races at most of the European venues.

I thought it would be something along those lines. And what a great example of dysfunctionality it is when clearly a bit of common sense could produce an easy to understand and relate to football league style system. Idiots.

CoopsII wrote:

AndreaModa wrote:Because they're not sanctioned by the FIA, and therefore can't use the "Formula" title. Both were set up by Bernie as a means to generating even more money by effectively "locking out" the support for F1 races at most of the European venues.

I thought it would be something along those lines. And what a great example of dysfunctionality it is when clearly a bit of common sense could produce an easy to understand and relate to football league style system. Idiots.

1. Premier League
2. Championship
3. Football League One
4. Football League Two

Yep, I can see how football is much less complicated.

AustralianStig wrote:

CoopsII wrote:

AndreaModa wrote:Because they're not sanctioned by the FIA, and therefore can't use the "Formula" title. Both were set up by Bernie as a means to generating even more money by effectively "locking out" the support for F1 races at most of the European venues.

I thought it would be something along those lines. And what a great example of dysfunctionality it is when clearly a bit of common sense could produce an easy to understand and relate to football league style system. Idiots.

1. Premier League
2. Championship
3. Football League One
4. Football League Two

Yep, I can see how football is much less complicated.

Alright, clearly football over here has been organised by similar minds and, truthfully, I only presume other countries have a better system so swap football for most other league sports.

CoopsII wrote:

AustralianStig wrote:

CoopsII wrote:I thought it would be something along those lines. And what a great example of dysfunctionality it is when clearly a bit of common sense could produce an easy to understand and relate to football league style system. Idiots.

1. Premier League
2. Championship
3. Football League One
4. Football League Two

Yep, I can see how football is much less complicated.

Alright, clearly football over here has been organised by similar minds and, truthfully, I only presume other countries have a better system so swap football for most other league sports.

1. Sheffield Shield
2. 1st Grade Cricket & Futures
3. 2nd Grade Cricket
....
6. Club Cricket


1. Major League Baseball
2. Minor League Baseball
3, College baseball

Most sports use a ladder system. It is more odd to see a sport that doesn't have a tier system.

CoopsII wrote:

AndreaModa wrote:Because they're not sanctioned by the FIA, and therefore can't use the "Formula" title. Both were set up by Bernie as a means to generating even more money by effectively "locking out" the support for F1 races at most of the European venues.

I thought it would be something along those lines. And what a great example of dysfunctionality it is when clearly a bit of common sense could produce an easy to understand and relate to football league style system. Idiots.

I think much of it has to do with the fact that the FIA can't prevent the fact that, if we here at F1 Rejects decide one day to find some circuits, some teams, some broadcast, some sponsors, a car with some speed and call it F1 Rejects Real Racing Series and become, a few years later, the main feeder to Formula 1. At least that is my perception and that was what Bernie did a few years ago. Of course it is not that simple in reality since the same Bernie would crush us down to the point there is nothing left but anyway here you go to another reason why things are shambolic.

Having watched several clips from the 2005 US Grand Prix (here, here and here), I reached an epiphany.

Has the sport actually learned anything from that weekend 10 years down the track? Because I for one am rather skeptical that they have...

Wizzie wrote:Having watched several clips from the 2005 US Grand Prix (here, here and here), I reached an epiphany.

Has the sport actually learned anything from that weekend 10 years down the track? Because I for one am rather skeptical that they have...

Sadly no. And I have little doubt that if a similar situation develops in the future things would happen exactly in the same way.


In an unrelated note, I realised just now with your clips of how much I miss the high-revving sound of the old engines. I grew up with noises like that. Still an apologist for the new engines though.

DanielPT wrote:

CoopsII wrote:

AndreaModa wrote:Because they're not sanctioned by the FIA, and therefore can't use the "Formula" title. Both were set up by Bernie as a means to generating even more money by effectively "locking out" the support for F1 races at most of the European venues.

I thought it would be something along those lines. And what a great example of dysfunctionality it is when clearly a bit of common sense could produce an easy to understand and relate to football league style system. Idiots.

I think much of it has to do with the fact that the FIA can't prevent the fact that, if we here at F1 Rejects decide one day to find some circuits, some teams, some broadcast, some sponsors, a car with some speed and call it F1 Rejects Real Racing Series and become, a few years later, the main feeder to Formula 1. At least that is my perception and that was what Bernie did a few years ago. Of course it is not that simple in reality since the same Bernie would crush us down to the point there is nothing left but anyway here you go to another reason why things are shambolic.

I might be mistaken, but I believe that the EU's Competition Commission has gone as far as explicitly instructing the FIA that it cannot specify particular routes into the series that it sanctions - for example, it cannot specify that a driver must go through Formula 4, Formula 3 and Formula 2 before they can then compete in Formula 1, which the EU would consider to be an anti-competitive practise. It is also part of the reason why the FIA itself could not directly promote the Formula 2 series when they revived it a few years ago, instead issuing MotorSportVision Racing with the commercial and operational rights to the series.

Ladies and gentleman, the European Union. A bastion of common sense, and logical thought. When governments all over the continent are scrambling to tie their shoelaces in the morning, out comes old Mother EU to wipe the jam from their face and hand them their school bag before they leave the house.

Just utterly incredible.

Go home EU officialdom! Go home!

AndreaModa wrote:Ladies and gentleman, the European Union. A bastion of common sense, and logical thought. When governments all over the continent are scrambling to tie their shoelaces in the morning, out comes old Mother EU to wipe the jam from their face and hand them their school bag before they leave the house.

Just utterly incredible.

Yes, because obviously only such a large multinational organisation has sufficient evil do so such a thing. Oh wait...

wikipedia wrote:Some countries, such as France, Norway, Russia, Ukraine, India, Myanmar, Sri Lanka, and Kenya have banned all alcohol advertising on television and billboard.

Klon wrote:

AndreaModa wrote:Ladies and gentleman, the European Union. A bastion of common sense, and logical thought. When governments all over the continent are scrambling to tie their shoelaces in the morning, out comes old Mother EU to wipe the jam from their face and hand them their school bag before they leave the house.

Just utterly incredible.

Yes, because obviously only such a large multinational organisation has sufficient evil do so such a thing. Oh wait...

I think he was more referring the whole "Competition Commission explicitly instructing the FIA that it cannot specify particular routes into the series that it sanctions" bit. Not that I find that particularly ridiculous in itself... I mean, even with that, all the national F3 series have gone down the tubes hard since they set up European F3.

Yeah, in terms of the ruination of national F3 classes, that is entirely the FIA's own doing. But to be barred from creating a clear path or ladder to F1 through the various motorsport classes is just ludicrous. There's nothing stopping them from having multiple championships on one "rung" - for example you might consider FR3.5 and GP2 together on the "rung" below F1, followed by FR2.0, GP3 and Auto GP, and then Euro F3 and the national F3 series (before they all went bust), and then the new F4 and its national equivalents, as well as FFord where it exists.

Salamander wrote:

Klon wrote:

AndreaModa wrote:Ladies and gentleman, the European Union. A bastion of common sense, and logical thought. When governments all over the continent are scrambling to tie their shoelaces in the morning, out comes old Mother EU to wipe the jam from their face and hand them their school bag before they leave the house.

Just utterly incredible.

Yes, because obviously only such a large multinational organisation has sufficient evil do so such a thing. Oh wait...

I think he was more referring the whole "Competition Commission explicitly instructing the FIA that it cannot specify particular routes into the series that it sanctions" bit. Not that I find that particularly ridiculous in itself... I mean, even with that, all the national F3 series have gone down the tubes hard since they set up European F3.

Well, the main reason seems to be that the EU would consider it an abuse of the FIA's authority to dictate specific career paths through junior series, which could then be exploited for commercial gain by the FIA.

The ruling is, in a number of ways, effectively designed as an anti-Bernie measure - Bernie already has a firm grip on GP2, which is seen as the normal entry route into F1, and there have been persistent complaints of cost inflation within the series. Now, imagine that you were able to dictate that a driver must go through a particular career course to get into a top tier series, such as F1 or the WEC - given the limited number of available seats and the fact that some drivers are prepared to pay considerable sums for the privilege of competing in the most high profile series, it could lead to a rather ugly and exploitative scenario if one individual held the rights to that particular career route. That, I believe, is the main reason why the EU opposes the idea of creating set career paths - because they know full well that, with the FIA being extremely passive on commercial rights and what has happened in other motorsport series, such an idea is likely to be very quickly exploited to the detriment of many.

mario wrote:Well, the main reason seems to be that the EU would consider it an abuse of the FIA's authority to dictate specific career paths through junior series, which could then be exploited for commercial gain by the FIA.

The ruling is, in a number of ways, effectively designed as an anti-Bernie measure - Bernie already has a firm grip on GP2, which is seen as the normal entry route into F1, and there have been persistent complaints of cost inflation within the series. Now, imagine that you were able to dictate that a driver must go through a particular career course to get into a top tier series, such as F1 or the WEC - given the limited number of available seats and the fact that some drivers are prepared to pay considerable sums for the privilege of competing in the most high profile series, it could lead to a rather ugly and exploitative scenario if one individual held the rights to that particular career route. That, I believe, is the main reason why the EU opposes the idea of creating set career paths - because they know full well that, with the FIA being extremely passive on commercial rights and what has happened in other motorsport series, such an idea is likely to be very quickly exploited to the detriment of many.

Is that how it got passed?

"So what does this ruling do?"
"Something Bernie Ecclestone doesn't want."
"Okay."

Well, I'm getting an awful feeling that this is only the start of 4-5 years of untouchable Mercedes dominance. I really hope I'm wrong, as that's all the sport needs, what with the ongoing financial crisis...

Would the races be better if they were reduced in distance by say 10%?

WeirdKerr wrote:Would the races be better if they were reduced in distance by say 10%?

I honestly think some of the races need to be longer. Obviously, don't make Singapore any longer than it already is, but I'd love to have another 5 or 10 laps tagged onto the end of races such as Monaco, Belgium, Australia, Britain etc.

East Londoner wrote:I honestly think some of the races need to be longer. Obviously, don't make Singapore any longer than it already is, but I'd love to have another 5 or 10 laps tagged onto the end of races such as Monaco, Belgium, Australia, Britain etc.

Isn't Monaco long enough already? It produces awesome like once every 5-10 years.

pasta_maldonado wrote:Well, I'm getting an awful feeling that this is only the start of 4-5 years of untouchable Mercedes dominance. I really hope I'm wrong, as that's all the sport needs, what with the ongoing financial crisis...

If you think about it, it is only logical. Engine manufacturers currently have little liberty to make massive improvements and this is something Mercedes can also use to keep their advantage. Anyway, Renault only needs to catch up partially because I reckon that would allow to put Red Bull more or less on par with Mercedes (They were the ones to win a race whenever Mercedes tripped themselves and that Red Bull chassis is still the best one). But I think Mercedes still have a good couple of years of domination in front of them. Unless the wildcard that is Honda gets it right. There is still the chance of that.

On another note this morning I've read statements in the press from the time Hamilton switched to Mercedes and boy, many people are eating lots of humble pie. Back in the day I did thought that a lot of daft things were written by people with responsibilities but looking back they sound even more ridiculous now. As for my case, I don't want to say "I told you so" but... I told you so!

DanielPT wrote:

pasta_maldonado wrote:Well, I'm getting an awful feeling that this is only the start of 4-5 years of untouchable Mercedes dominance. I really hope I'm wrong, as that's all the sport needs, what with the ongoing financial crisis...

If you think about it, it is only logical. Engine manufacturers currently have little liberty to make massive improvements and this is something Mercedes can also use to keep their advantage. Anyway, Renault only needs to catch up partially because I reckon that would allow to put Red Bull more or less on par with Mercedes (They were the ones to win a race whenever Mercedes tripped themselves and that Red Bull chassis is still the best one). But I think Mercedes still have a good couple of years of domination in front of them. Unless the wildcard that is Honda gets it right. There is still the chance of that.

On another note this morning I've read statements in the press from the time Hamilton switched to Mercedes and boy, many people are eating lots of humble pie. Back in the day I did thought that a lot of daft things were written by people with responsibilities but looking back they sound even more ridiculous now. As for my case, I don't want to say "I told you so" but... I told you so!

The more I think about it, the more I reckon someone high up let Hamilton know about the design advantage the Mercs would have this season.

Only a hunch, but it would make sense.

SgtPepper wrote:
The more I think about it, the more I reckon someone high up let Hamilton know about the design advantage the Mercs would have this season.

Only a hunch, but it would make sense.

Someone high up? I can only think of someone whose name shall not be mentioned in that case.

SgtPepper wrote:The more I think about it, the more I reckon someone high up let Hamilton know about the design advantage the Mercs would have this season.

Only a hunch, but it would make sense.

There was obviously a serious incentive for Hamilton to leave his nest at McLaren. At the end of the day the car was somewhat unreliable in 2012, but consistently 2nd best between 2010 and 2012. There was no room at Red Bull so while the money may have been absolutely huge, there was obviously another incentive to go. What it was, that's for you to decide

I do find it sad that Ross Brawn's been given no credit in building up Mercedes to the point they've been this year. I haven't heard diddly squat from anyone at Mercedes giving him any sense of credit for his work.

Bernie Ecclestone talked to Hamilton privately and suggested he jump ship to Mercedes. Hamilton said his initial reaction was "You gotta be kidding me?!" This was some time mid 2012. Probably before the visit from Ross Brawn. This wasn't mentioned before mid 2013 as far as i can remember, possibly even late 2013. Remember that back then Mercedes were badly overheating their tyres and were unable to compete at the top and were considered inferior to McLaren. The roles have reversed now and both 2013 and 2014 were strong years.

Hamilton is marketable, Ecclestone recently said he'd prefer Hamilton to win the title because it's better for the F1 image since fewer people know of Rosberg. Think of that waht you will, but he's allways thinking about money and how many millions fractions of a percent can mean. Remember his near idiotic comment that it's better to host a GP in Mexico City than Cancoun because people instantly know Mexico City is in Mexico. He is selling F1 to the broadest possible demographic, not the savvy fans.

For all his "old grumpy guy" posturing, he knows F1 and manipulates a lot of it behind the scenes. And he wanted Hamilton in Mercedes once another huge name (Schumacher) was looking set to leave. He also probably knew more than the rest of us about Mercedes' potential. In 2013 he also tried to convince Horner to leave Red Bull and become his succsesor, only for Horner to refuse leaving such a prestigious and multiple title winning team. Rumours have it that Mr. E was also squeezing Vettels arm and hinting he jump ship to Ferrari... possibly around the same time. Back in the present, Red Bull have lost Newey, Prodromou, Vettel and Renault have endured a horrid season. The team somehow managed to come in 2nd, but this was probably because Newey's genius and Ricciardo's ability were underestimated. But Ecclestone knew they were up for it before the rest of us, just like he knew Newey was talking to Ferrari. He nearly ended up going there (a combination of Marchionne's power plays and the Domenicali sacking made Newey turn them down) but didn't like the political state the team was in.

Now that you mention it, I do recall an interview last year with somebody saying Ecclestone had personally recommended to Hamilton to move to Mercedes.

I would have told Hamilton to get out of mclaren. It was pretty clear they were on the way down, while mercedes were on the way up.
You're giving bernie too much credit. What was his explanation for Williams? LOL.

My prediction, vettel at ferrari may bring together a dream team if FIAT and ferrari politics butt out, and they're the next rising star.
Shame for ricciardo with red bull on the way down and no where to go as vettel will block and the rest of the teams barring merc trend downwards too...

With the whole engine thing at the moment, is there anything against the teams using a Le Mans Programme to develop the engine since the rules allow for engines in F1 to be used?

pablo_h wrote:I would have told Hamilton to get out of mclaren. It was pretty clear they were on the way down, while mercedes were on the way up.
You're giving bernie too much credit. What was his explanation for Williams? LOL.

My prediction, vettel at ferrari may bring together a dream team if FIAT and ferrari politics butt out, and they're the next rising star.
Shame for ricciardo with red bull on the way down and no where to go as vettel will block and the rest of the teams barring merc trend downwards too...

When Lauda was negotiating with Hamilton, one of the points he did emphasise was the advantages that would come with being a driver in a factory team, not to mention pointing out the impact that Mercedes's withdrawal of factory support for McLaren would have on them.
He did, it seems, have a point - McLaren's dip in form does match up with Mercedes demoting McLaren to customer status in late 2012, and Hamilton reportedly already knew that McLaren wanted to cut his wages substantially for 2013 in order to pay Mercedes's engine bill.

As for Ferrari, internal politics will certainly be a major factor in their potential - and, in the short term, the recent upheavals within the team are not especially promising. McLaren, perhaps, might rebound again if their deal with Honda works out well, although again there are signs of potential internal disruption causing issues given the rumours that Mumtalakat have been questioning Ron over his failures to secure new sponsorship deals for the team - and if they do come good, Alonso will be wanting to stay in there for as long as possible.

sswishbone wrote:With the whole engine thing at the moment, is there anything against the teams using a Le Mans Programme to develop the engine since the rules allow for engines in F1 to be used?

It is theoretically possible - the ACO did deliberately design the regulations so an F1 spec engine could compete at Le Mans, and there had been rumours that, if the Caterham-Renault partnership had not fallen apart so quickly, Renault might have provided Caterham with sportscar spec versions of their turbo engines to compete in the WEC under the "Alpine" marque, given that the two were collaborating on an "Alpine" branded road car.

However, the likelihood of that happening is likely to be low - Mercedes does not need to, Renault's plans have fallen apart and Ferrari have stated that they are not sure they could afford to run a sportscar program and an F1 program simultaneously. Honda is perhaps the only outfit that might want to do that, but then there would also be the problem that an F1 spec engine would probably require a fair amount of redesigning to make it competitive and sufficiently reliable in the WEC, therefore reducing the potential for technological transfer between the two series. The ACO, after all, deliberately designed the regulations so it would be easier to go from F1 into the WEC rather than the other way around, given that they remember all too well what happened to Group C.

pasta_maldonado wrote:Well, I'm getting an awful feeling that this is only the start of 4-5 years of untouchable Mercedes dominance. I really hope I'm wrong, as that's all the sport needs, what with the ongoing financial crisis...

At least Rosberg could put up a fight to Hamilton. Then again, if Hamilton were to become more dominant in those 5 years, he could potentially reach the same level of wins as Michael Schumacher.

pasta_maldonado wrote:Well, I'm getting an awful feeling that this is only the start of 4-5 years of untouchable Mercedes dominance. I really hope I'm wrong, as that's all the sport needs, what with the ongoing financial crisis...

A financial crisis and a dull on-track product are the last things F1 need...