Grand Prix Rejects

"Might" being a slight understatement...

JeremyMcClean wrote:"Might" being a slight understatement...

I did not want to assert that he will because anything can happen, including Vettel leaving Red Bull. But, with Massa finally doing his job, he lost that opening at Ferrari, so the only other place left is a drive for McLaren if think that Perez doesn't fit his role after all.

DanielPT wrote:What I think that hasn't been thoroughly discussed is what about Webber in this saga. I will be honest, I want Webber to do well and my first reaction to the events leading to incident and the incident itself was outrage. Thing is, afterwards, I changed this emotion for the one of disappointment. I got disappointed that Webber, feeling betrayed and in shock it must be said, decided to fall back and not fight back. Sure, he pushed Vettel against the wall when he did his move but he could have stalked him afterwards nonetheless. I know that Webber only assured the points went to the team and that vengeance is served cold. And also he was on the hard tyres while Vettel was on mediums, but he still lost too much time in the last few laps. What I make of this, 24 hours later, is that Webber is broken as a racing driver and it has been like this since probably 2011. The grit isn't there any more. His drives last year and early this year lack the intensity that made him say "not too bad for a number 2". His comments about Vettel being protected in some way reinforce this view of mine. I sure hope that what happened makes brings back some fire into Webber, but I am doubtful for two reasons: His age and the fact that once it is gone, then it is definitely gone. I think Webber might retire at the of the year.

Webber was on a harder compound of tyres, and was under attack immediately after leaving the pits. I'm surprised he could fight Vettel at all, but he did - even after Vettel completed the move, he had another go at him into turn 1, but after that there was no real chance for him. Why bother pushing when you can't catch the guy ahead and the guy behind is day and night behind you?

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:

DanielPT wrote:What I think that hasn't been thoroughly discussed is what about Webber in this saga. I will be honest, I want Webber to do well and my first reaction to the events leading to incident and the incident itself was outrage. Thing is, afterwards, I changed this emotion for the one of disappointment. I got disappointed that Webber, feeling betrayed and in shock it must be said, decided to fall back and not fight back. Sure, he pushed Vettel against the wall when he did his move but he could have stalked him afterwards nonetheless. I know that Webber only assured the points went to the team and that vengeance is served cold. And also he was on the hard tyres while Vettel was on mediums, but he still lost too much time in the last few laps. What I make of this, 24 hours later, is that Webber is broken as a racing driver and it has been like this since probably 2011. The grit isn't there any more. His drives last year and early this year lack the intensity that made him say "not too bad for a number 2". His comments about Vettel being protected in some way reinforce this view of mine. I sure hope that what happened makes brings back some fire into Webber, but I am doubtful for two reasons: His age and the fact that once it is gone, then it is definitely gone. I think Webber might retire at the of the year.

Webber was on a harder compound of tyres, and was under attack immediately after leaving the pits. I'm surprised he could fight Vettel at all, but he did - even after Vettel completed the move, he had another go at him into turn 1, but after that there was no real chance for him. Why bother pushing when you can't catch the guy ahead and the guy behind is day and night behind you?

Besides, what latitude would he have to criticise if he made things worse by passing Vettel back - or crash trying.

CarlosFerreira wrote:

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:

DanielPT wrote:What I think that hasn't been thoroughly discussed is what about Webber in this saga. I will be honest, I want Webber to do well and my first reaction to the events leading to incident and the incident itself was outrage. Thing is, afterwards, I changed this emotion for the one of disappointment. I got disappointed that Webber, feeling betrayed and in shock it must be said, decided to fall back and not fight back. Sure, he pushed Vettel against the wall when he did his move but he could have stalked him afterwards nonetheless. I know that Webber only assured the points went to the team and that vengeance is served cold. And also he was on the hard tyres while Vettel was on mediums, but he still lost too much time in the last few laps. What I make of this, 24 hours later, is that Webber is broken as a racing driver and it has been like this since probably 2011. The grit isn't there any more. His drives last year and early this year lack the intensity that made him say "not too bad for a number 2". His comments about Vettel being protected in some way reinforce this view of mine. I sure hope that what happened makes brings back some fire into Webber, but I am doubtful for two reasons: His age and the fact that once it is gone, then it is definitely gone. I think Webber might retire at the of the year.

Webber was on a harder compound of tyres, and was under attack immediately after leaving the pits. I'm surprised he could fight Vettel at all, but he did - even after Vettel completed the move, he had another go at him into turn 1, but after that there was no real chance for him. Why bother pushing when you can't catch the guy ahead and the guy behind is day and night behind you?

Besides, what latitude would he have to criticise if he made things worse by passing Vettel back - or crash trying.

Whatever you say.

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:
Webber was on a harder compound of tyres, and was under attack immediately after leaving the pits. I'm surprised he could fight Vettel at all, but he did - even after Vettel completed the move, he had another go at him into turn 1, but after that there was no real chance for him. Why bother pushing when you can't catch the guy ahead and the guy behind is day and night behind you?

I think he could have put a brought a bit of a pressure to Vettel's final cruise to the flag leading him to over do his tyres. Because if Vettel was really that faster than Webber than it did not make any sense, knowing that it was hold station after the final pitstop, to wait until that time to make a move when he was probably holding it back to the point of being in third after the second pitstop.

DanielPT wrote:

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:Webber was on a harder compound of tyres, and was under attack immediately after leaving the pits. I'm surprised he could fight Vettel at all, but he did - even after Vettel completed the move, he had another go at him into turn 1, but after that there was no real chance for him. Why bother pushing when you can't catch the guy ahead and the guy behind is day and night behind you?

I think he could have put a brought a bit of a pressure to Vettel's final cruise to the flag leading him to over do his tyres. Because if Vettel was really that faster than Webber than it did not make any sense, knowing that it was hold station after the final pitstop, to wait until that time to make a move when he was probably holding it back to the point of being in third after the second pitstop.

I'm pretty certain Vettel could've just matched Webber's pace on those tyres if Webber had kept pushing, they were on low fuel and not many laps left.

Imo the best thing that could come out of this whole Red Bull driver situation would be if in the last race of the season we got Webber infront of the guy who is Vettels biggest challenger and waves him through to the title just to tell Red Bull "Screw you, I'm resigning"

DonTirri wrote:Imo the best thing that could come out of this whole Red Bull driver situation would be if in the last race of the season we got Webber infront of the guy who is Vettels biggest challenger and waves him through to the title just to tell Red Bull "Screw you, I'm resigning"

Hardly. That's a level of childish that would make Vettel proud. Nothing about that sounds like Webber at all

DonTirri wrote:Imo the best thing that could come out of this whole Red Bull driver situation would be if in the last race of the season we got Webber infront of the guy who is Vettels biggest challenger and waves him through to the title just to tell Red Bull "Screw you, I'm resigning"

I really think Webber is a professional, and would never do such thing. Besides, he owes it to the team to do his best. Why throw his reputation in the mud?

Stramala [kostas22] wrote:

DonTirri wrote:Imo the best thing that could come out of this whole Red Bull driver situation would be if in the last race of the season we got Webber infront of the guy who is Vettels biggest challenger and waves him through to the title just to tell Red Bull "Screw you, I'm resigning"

Hardly. That's a level of childish that would make Vettel proud. Nothing about that sounds like Webber at all

What and swerving in front of Vettel after the flag isn't childish? Or showing him the finger? Not to mention he wasn't far away from getting in the way of Vettel at Brazil last year so it's not as though he steps out of the way in a championship condition. I don't think he would do something as deliberate as that, but still, I can't see him doing much to help either.

I'm a Webber fan, but he's far from a saint in this whole situation, which can be traced back for several years.

Stramala [kostas22] wrote:

DonTirri wrote:Imo the best thing that could come out of this whole Red Bull driver situation would be if in the last race of the season we got Webber infront of the guy who is Vettels biggest challenger and waves him through to the title just to tell Red Bull "Screw you, I'm resigning"

Hardly. That's a level of childish that would make Vettel proud. Nothing about that sounds like Webber at all

Agree with Ed24, watching the start of Brazil last year it was clear that Webber wasn't doing Vettel any favours at all ...

DG

Divina_Galica wrote:

Stramala [kostas22] wrote:

DonTirri wrote:Imo the best thing that could come out of this whole Red Bull driver situation would be if in the last race of the season we got Webber infront of the guy who is Vettels biggest challenger and waves him through to the title just to tell Red Bull "Screw you, I'm resigning"

Hardly. That's a level of childish that would make Vettel proud. Nothing about that sounds like Webber at all

Agree with Ed24, watching the start of Brazil last year it was clear that Webber wasn't doing Vettel any favours at all ...

DG

And that is probably the most likely consequence of these events - whilst Webber probably would not want to actively sabotage Vettel, it is quite likely that he will also actively disregard any instructions to assist him too (Horner did mention the Brazilian GP when he discussed the problems with managing his drivers, hinting that Webber might have disobeyed a team order in that instance).

DonTirri wrote:Imo the best thing that could come out of this whole Red Bull driver situation would be if in the last race of the season we got Webber infront of the guy who is Vettels biggest challenger and waves him through to the title just to tell Red Bull "Screw you, I'm resigning"

Well his career will be over, his dreams shattered and who knows what other beef he'll have with Vettel by then so I guess something like that is a possibility. I dont think it'll harm his reputation, he'll always be known as That Plucky Aussie Who Missed Out if he cant pick up the WDC this year.

Stick Vettel in a Toro Rosso for 1 round as punishment for disobeying orders and promote one of the Toros to Red Bull.

On a practical side it would give a small comparison as to the pace of the Toro Rosso drivers. Plus it would be entertaining!

One thing which is an absolute certainly - life is suddenly going to get a heck of a lot more interesting between Vergne and Ricciardo down at the junior team.

Shadaza wrote:Stick Vettel in a Toro Rosso for 1 round as punishment for disobeying orders and promote one of the Toros to Red Bull.

Love it, I can just imagine Seb screaming at Marko "No, dont send me there! I'll be good! I promise!"

DanielPT wrote:

JeremyMcClean wrote:"Might" being a slight understatement...

I did not want to assert that he will because anything can happen, including Vettel leaving Red Bull. But, with Massa finally doing his job, he lost that opening at Ferrari, so the only other place left is a drive for McLaren if think that Perez doesn't fit his role after all.

What's to say Vettel couldn't go to Ferrari, and Alonso could move to Red Bull in his place? I know Alonso has a multi-year Ferrari contract but things can change, as we know it.

I could never envisage the two of them in the same team though.

James1978 wrote:One thing which is an absolute certainly - life is suddenly going to get a heck of a lot more interesting between Vergne and Ricciardo down at the junior team.

I think it was already interesting with the idea around that they could be both dumped at the end of this year in order to make room for another 2 young aspirants. While it wasn't very much talked, everyone can imagine that scenario happening based on recent history. And things will get even more lively when Toro Rosso starts giving Friday free practice trials to someone waiting in the wings.

CoopsII wrote:

Shadaza wrote:Stick Vettel in a Toro Rosso for 1 round as punishment for disobeying orders and promote one of the Toros to Red Bull.

Love it, I can just imagine Seb screaming at Marko "No, dont send me there! I'll be good! I promise!"

Vettel: "You can't scare me, you rich Austrian bastard."
Mateschitz: "Take him to Toro Rosso."
Vettel: "No, no, not Toro Rosso, no, no, please, have any mercy, no!"

The person who comes out of this really badly is Christian Horner. The fact of the matter is they never asked Vettel to give the place back and he clearly has no authority over this drivers. Contrast this to Ross Brawn - what he says, goes and I reckon he'd put a sanction in if he was disobeyed. He even got on the radio to Schumi to tell him off in Monza 2011 (I think?) when he was battling Hamilton.

I don't particularly agree with John Watson's once race ban idea but then again I can't think of another punishment that would have any clout (apart from going to STR for a race which would be really funny!).

Klon wrote:

CoopsII wrote:

Shadaza wrote:Stick Vettel in a Toro Rosso for 1 round as punishment for disobeying orders and promote one of the Toros to Red Bull.

Love it, I can just imagine Seb screaming at Marko "No, dont send me there! I'll be good! I promise!"

Vettel: "You can't scare me, you rich Austrian bastard."
Mateschitz: "Take him to Toro Rosso."
Vettel: "No, no, not Toro Rosso, no, no, please, have any mercy, no!"

It'll be like sending him into the Total Perspective Vortex. I don't think he can take it.

DanielPT wrote:I think it was already interesting with the idea around that they could be both dumped at the end of this year in order to make room for another 2 young aspirants. While it wasn't very much talked, everyone can imagine that scenario happening based on recent history. And things will get even more lively when Toro Rosso starts giving Friday free practice trials to someone waiting in the wings.

There's one certain Da Costa. So... who knows?

LellaLombardi wrote:The person who comes out of this really badly is Christian Horner. The fact of the matter is they never asked Vettel to give the place back and he clearly has no authority over this drivers. Contrast this to Ross Brawn - what he says, goes and I reckon he'd put a sanction in if he was disobeyed. He even got on the radio to Schumi to tell him off in Monza 2011 (I think?) when he was battling Hamilton.

I don't particularly agree with John Watson's once race ban idea but then again I can't think of another punishment that would have any clout (apart from going to STR for a race which would be really funny!).

Horner did say that, in the end, he didn't order Vettel to hand the position back because he expected Vettel to continue ignoring the instructions from the team and refuse to hand the position back to Webber - which underlines the problem of his lack of authority over his drivers.

Now, that particular comparison with Ross Brawn is perhaps not the best example - Ross did indeed warn Schumacher about his behaviour, but he also informed him that he was being threatened with penalties from race control after he was spotted weaving on the run down to Ascari on a particular lap to prevent Hamilton passing him, which they felt was dangerous. In that instance, therefore, even if it had been somebody other than Ross giving the message, it'd probably have had a similar effect because of the threat of action from Whiting.
Still, overall I do get the impression that Brawn probably does get, by virtue of his track record and his management style, more respect from his drivers than Horner does - Rosberg did argue with Ross over the radio, but did ultimately back down and accepted the team orders even though it clearly grated with him.

The issue of what Red Bull can do to Vettel, though, is interesting and difficult. They are in an awkward situation, since there are few drivers who could easily replace Vettel right about now, so there probably is a limit to how far they could push Vettel before he decides to move elsewhere - especially since Vettel's contract expires within the next few years IIRC.
Given his recent success, financial penalties would probably have little impact (even if he was forced to forfeit his performance bonus for that race, it'd be pocket change compared to what he must have earned over the previous three years), and if Vettel is going to disobey orders then making him pay for it on the track, where such a penalty would probably hurt him, is not easy.

If they did stick Vettel in the Torro Rosso he probably just stick the damn thing on pole and win another race in it anyway... not that i think he could do that

CoopsII wrote:

Shadaza wrote:Stick Vettel in a Toro Rosso for 1 round as punishment for disobeying orders and promote one of the Toros to Red Bull.

Love it, I can just imagine Seb screaming at Marko "No, dont send me there! I'll be good! I promise!"

So we're starting a new campaign then?

It's not good to make enemies in the track, especially when it's your team-mate. Remember in Austin: Vettel loses the lead because he lose time with Karthikeyan, the driver he insulted in the beginning of that season.

Mark is 36 already and I don't see him in F-1 in next 5 years. So, I think he will payback this one. I don't think he is going to crash into Vettel, except if Vettel tries to force an overtake, but he will attack Vettel on the track (in a very agressive form), when he catch him, or will defend, like he did in Sepang, almost throwing Vettel in the wall.

I'm actually surprised nobody pointed out that Webber nearly had Vettel into the pitwall.....

WeirdKerr wrote:I'm actually surprised nobody pointed out that Webber nearly had Vettel into the pitwall.....

I did in my F1 Rejects Forum Ratings 2013 - R2 Malaysia response:

"Webber - 7 - Not convinced he deserved to win. Despite your team-mate disobeying team orders you don't try and shove them into the pit wall"

DG

WeirdKerr wrote:I'm actually surprised nobody pointed out that Webber nearly had Vettel into the pitwall.....

DanielPT wrote:Sure, he pushed Vettel against the wall when he did his move but he could have stalked him afterwards nonetheless.

Although it was in the middle of a big post and wasn't central to the point I was making...

In case anyone here needs it. Oh, and Lewis and Jenson of course.

More accurate:

shinji wrote:More accurate:

Fix'd.

here's an interesting one from Autosport:

AUTOSPORT has learned that Webber was so infuriated by Vettel's actions that he initially did not wish to take part in the podium ceremony, but he was eventually convinced to do so.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/106372

Shadaza wrote:Stick Vettel in a Toro Rosso for 1 round as punishment for disobeying orders and promote one of the Toros to Red Bull.
On a practical side it would give a small comparison as to the pace of the Toro Rosso drivers. Plus it would be entertaining!

Alternatively: send him to Marussia for one race. In one shot, we see if Jules Bianchi could, say, grab a podium with only one chance to do so, while we also get to see if (or how much) Williams and Toro Rosso will be bricking it if there's a three-time World Champion in the lead car of The Reject Two.

More likely, if it was to be one of The Reject Two, Red Bull still have that technical partnership with Caterham, don't they? Exchange Seb for Charles Pic for one race and see if that green monstrosity can be dragged into anything resembling a competitive performance.

dinizintheoven wrote:

Shadaza wrote:Stick Vettel in a Toro Rosso for 1 round as punishment for disobeying orders and promote one of the Toros to Red Bull.
On a practical side it would give a small comparison as to the pace of the Toro Rosso drivers. Plus it would be entertaining!

Alternatively: send him to Marussia for one race. In one shot, we see if Jules Bianchi could, say, grab a podium with only one chance to do so, while we also get to see if (or how much) Williams and Toro Rosso will be bricking it if there's a three-time World Champion in the lead car of The Reject Two.

More likely, if it was to be one of The Reject Two, Red Bull still have that technical partnership with Caterham, don't they? Exchange Seb for Charles Pic for one race and see if that green monstrosity can be dragged into anything resembling a competitive performance.

Just swap Vettel with the other Sebastian. And i don't mean Buemi, Loeb or the singing disney crab, but Ogier.

This wrote:Just swap Vettel with the other Sebastian. And i don't mean Buemi, Loeb or the singing disney crab, but Ogier.

Two words: Sebastien Bourdais

WeirdKerr wrote:I'm actually surprised nobody pointed out that Webber nearly had Vettel into the pitwall.....

Not once, but twice...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... kG06ixh92c

CoopsII wrote:

WeirdKerr wrote:I'm actually surprised nobody pointed out that Webber nearly had Vettel into the pitwall.....

Not once, but twice...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... kG06ixh92c

Wow I never saw that, that is really out of order from Mark. It does not justify Vettel breaking the team orders but that looked really really dangerous.

Shadaza wrote:

CoopsII wrote:

WeirdKerr wrote:I'm actually surprised nobody pointed out that Webber nearly had Vettel into the pitwall.....

Not once, but twice...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... kG06ixh92c

Wow I never saw that, that is really out of order from Mark. It does not justify Vettel breaking the team orders but that looked really really dangerous.

It is not that Vettel gets easily frightened. If I was Mark though, I would be plotting a way to wreck one of Vettel's next races.