What If?

Bleu · Post by **Bleu** » 27 Mar 2016, 20:41

Pace-wise Monaco was the only place where they seemed to have any chances on points. Alesi was running seventh from the early laps until his retirement. And five of the six drivers ahead of him dropped back - four retiring and Häkkinen lost a lap as something was stuck under his brake pedal IIRC.

Whiteshore · Post by **Whiteshore** » 10 Sep 2016, 13:47

What if Bruno Junqueira became the Williams driver in 2000 instead of Jenson Button?

watka · Post by **watka** » 10 Sep 2016, 20:50

Whiteshore wrote:What if Bruno Junqueira became the Williams driver in 2000 instead of Jenson Button?

Bruno Junqueira would probably have ended up on the F1 scrapheap failing quickly. Williams only kept Button for a year due to having an option to sign Montoya in 2001. Junqueira would have had to pull something special out the bag to keep his seat over Ralf Schumacher. In 2001, he may have gone to Renault if Briatore liked the look of him or possibly Arrows (going on the basis of Bernoldi's Brazilian reals getting him a seat). Results would have been difficult at either team and he wouldn't have had the star appeal of Button that led BAR to take a punt on him, so I imagine he'd have left F1 or found himself a midfield runner for a few more years.

As for Button, the said star appeal would have led him to a seat sooner or later. McLaren and Prost were both well aware of his talents and it's difficult to see how he wouldn't have got a seat in a testing capacity in 2000 whilst having other race commitments. McLaren signed Raikkonen in 2002 after a signal season at Sauber, so they were in the market for a young driver in the period of Button's early career, so he might have ended up there in say 2001 or 2002. Eddie Jordan has admitted to trying to sign Button, so maybe Jordan might have been his door into Formula 1, or perhaps it would have been Button getting the seat that Justin Wilson got at Jaguar. Any which way, I think he would have had his chance to shine in Formula 1, perhaps even securing a race victory before his debut win with Honda in 2006, but whether he'd have been at the right place at the right time - i.e. Brawn in 2009 - I wouldn't like to guess.

Aislabie · Post by **Aislabie** » 12 Sep 2016, 01:22

What if Michael Schumacher had honoured the contract that stipulated he joined a Mercedes-powered team and joined Sauber in 1992?

Jan Magnussen · Post by **Rob Dylan** » 14 Nov 2016, 15:35

What if Mercedes are just as dominant next year as they have been for the last three years?

What if McLaren don't make any major gains next year under the new regulations?

Jan Magnussen · Post by **Rob Dylan** » 03 Dec 2016, 14:18

What if Schumacher had won the '06 title? With the assumption that all following results are the same as reality, I'm asking this in terms of how we would view Alonso's "greatness". If he had failed to win the 2006 title as well as 2010 and 2012, would we still think he was as talented as we currently do?

Nessafox · Post by **Nessafox** » 03 Dec 2016, 15:03

Rob Dylan wrote:What if Schumacher had won the '06 title? With the assumption that all following results are the same as reality, I'm asking this in terms of how we would view Alonso's "greatness". If he had failed to win the 2006 title as well as 2010 and 2012, would we still think he was as talented as we currently do?

Yes because of his Minardi year and his rather decent 2008 (he did score a second win without the help of Piquet) He wouldn't be accused of Fisichellaitis, because he kind of destroyed fisi when they were teammates.
Maybe he wouldn't be considered on the same level as Hamilton or Vettel, but certainly better than Raikkonen and Button and probably slightly better than Rosberg.

girry · Post by **girry** » 03 Dec 2016, 16:45

It probably would depend on how Fernando lost the '06 title.

Had it been mechanical gremlins or someone crashing into him that would have led to the speculative loss vs. Schumacher, then I believe it would merely have added to his resume as the "unlucky/cursed great". However, if he was simply driving less impressively in 2006, leading to a "fair" loss vs. Schumacher then we would view Fred's resume with a bit more doubt, I guess.

Post by **mario** » 04 Dec 2016, 21:27

giraurd wrote:It probably would depend on how Fernando lost the '06 title.

Had it been mechanical gremlins or someone crashing into him that would have led to the speculative loss vs. Schumacher, then I believe it would merely have added to his resume as the "unlucky/cursed great". However, if he was simply driving less impressively in 2006, leading to a "fair" loss vs. Schumacher then we would view Fred's resume with a bit more doubt, I guess.

It is also likely that some might feel that Alonso would have been cheated out of the title in 2006 due to the sudden ban on the tuned mass dampers midway through the season, which helped give Schumacher's campaign a new impetus.

I think that the public feeling that Ferrari had used their political power to cripple him (even though Briatore laid the blame at McLaren's door for that move, indicating that it was revenge for Renault having questioned the legality of what McLaren called their J-damper) would have probably lead to greater sympathy for him, and ultimately I think he would still be highly respected in that regard.

It's an interesting thing that the way in which Alonso strived in 2010 and 2012 to be in contention for the title has burnished his reputation as a great driver - the belief that, by sheer willpower, he dragged his car into a position that no other driver in the field could have done and managed to do it not once, but twice. In some ways, those narrow losses have perhaps enhanced his reputation by just as much, if not perhaps more, than his victories in 2005 and 2006.

It certainly was the case that, in those two years, when Autosport held their private vote amongst the team bosses for the best driver of the year, Alonso won in those years by a huge margin, and there were a few journalists who considered that those two years were, in terms of the sheer ability that he displayed, perhaps the finest years in Alonso's entire career.
Equally, the difficulties that Vettel has had at Ferrari since then also seem to have added to Alonso's reputation - the fact that Alonso was able to manage to contain his frustrations for longer than Vettel, whilst at the same time the feeling that Vettel has underperformed for a man of his reputation, has cast him in a more negative light whilst simultaneously making Alonso's performances look even more heroic.

Perhaps this is a point that is more fitted for the Ponderbox thread, but in some ways I do think that Alonso's comment that Vettel's titles would perhaps prove to be more of a curse than a blessing is perhaps beginning to come true.

FullMetalJack · Post by **FullMetalJack** » 05 Dec 2016, 10:23

mario wrote:It's an interesting thing that the way in which Alonso strived in 2010 and 2012 to be in contention for the title has burnished his reputation as a great driver - the belief that, by sheer willpower, he dragged his car into a position that no other driver in the field could have done and managed to do it not once, but twice. In some ways, those narrow losses have perhaps enhanced his reputation by just as much, if not perhaps more, than his victories in 2005 and 2006.

It certainly was the case that, in those two years, when Autosport held their private vote amongst the team bosses for the best driver of the year, Alonso won in those years by a huge margin, and there were a few journalists who considered that those two years were, in terms of the sheer ability that he displayed, perhaps the finest years in Alonso's entire career.

Yep. 2012 did more for my opinion of him than 2005-06 ever did. Confirmed him as the best driver of this era, and one of the 6-7 best ever.

Dj_bereta · Post by **Dj_bereta** » 05 Dec 2016, 23:58

Aislabie wrote:What if Michael Schumacher had honoured the contract that stipulated he joined a Mercedes-powered team and joined Sauber in 1992?

Sauber debuted in F1 in 93

. But considering this scenario... Maybe Martin Brundle had won the title in 1994 instead of Schumacher or even Senna had won it (considering this possibility altering the outcome of 94 tragic weekend at Imola). Without Schumacher in the way, Piquet probably had stayed in Benetton for another season but losing to Brundle during all year (feeling the age). Piquet fired at the end of 92 season and replaced by Patrese. Brundle again winning the battle against his team mate while Schumacher had a close battle with Wendlinger, but winning in the end. Schumacher stays at Sauber for 94 season and the battle between Brundle vs Senna happens again.

ibsey · Post by **ibsey** » 21 Dec 2016, 12:25

What if Hill never got the Williams seat for 1993, what might have happened to Damon and would he have won a WDC?

Also what if Hakkinen had got the sacked from Mclaren after 1997, might he have won a WDC?

Mika did have a strong end to that year but just before the British GP there were rumors Mika & Mclaren would part. Brundle did a mid season report of all the top drivers for ITV F1 and only have Mika a C+ which IIRC was the worst of the lot.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 21 Dec 2016, 14:20

ibsey wrote:What if Hill never got the Williams seat for 1993, what might have happened to Damon and would he have won a WDC?

There was a possibility that Keith Wiggins could have taken his Pacific team into F1 for 1993, and Damon Hill would have spent more time in a back-of-the-grid team. I would like to think that he would have spent one more year as a Williams test driver alongside gaining race experience (providing he wasn't DNQing regularly as he did in the pink-and-blue Brabham). He obviously wouldn't then have gone on to win the 1993 Hungarian, Belgian and Italian Grands Prix, or been alongside Senna and Prost on their last podium together in Oz 1993. But might he then have still gone to Williams in 1994, albeit with less front-running experience? Would Pacific even have lasted that first season if they entered a year sooner?

ibsey · Post by **ibsey** » 21 Dec 2016, 14:56

dr-baker wrote:
ibsey wrote:What if Hill never got the Williams seat for 1993, what might have happened to Damon and would he have won a WDC?

But might he then have still gone to Williams in 1994, albeit with less front-running experience? Would Pacific even have lasted that first season if they entered a year sooner?

Great info, thanks dr baker

If Hill had managed to get into the FW16 either at the start of the season (assuming Pacific couldn't carry on) or after Senna's tragic death, then I'd imagine it is likely he still would have ended up as 1996 WDC with Williams.

However lets assume that Pacific carried on into 1994 and Damon was tied into a contract with them, so couldn't replace Senna. Do you think Damon would on people's radar to join Williams for 1995? Particularly with the likes of Brundle/Blundell/Mansell & Coulthard looking for top seats. What I am trying to work out is whether Hill could have won the WDC in this particular situation?

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 21 Dec 2016, 21:06

ibsey wrote:
dr-baker wrote:
ibsey wrote:What if Hill never got the Williams seat for 1993, what might have happened to Damon and would he have won a WDC?

But might he then have still gone to Williams in 1994, albeit with less front-running experience? Would Pacific even have lasted that first season if they entered a year sooner?

Great info, thanks dr baker

If Hill had managed to get into the FW16 either at the start of the season (assuming Pacific couldn't carry on) or after Senna's tragic death, then I'd imagine it is likely he still would have ended up as 1996 WDC with Williams.

However lets assume that Pacific carried on into 1994 and Damon was tied into a contract with them, so couldn't replace Senna. Do you think Damon would on people's radar to join Williams for 1995? Particularly with the likes of Brundle/Blundell/Mansell & Coulthard looking for top seats. What I am trying to work out is whether Hill could have won the WDC in this particular situation?

I agree that if Damon had only been at Pacific for 1993 and then joined Williams in 1994 (either as Senna's teammate or replacement), then he would still go on to win in 1996 (assuming everything else stays the same, like Schumi going to Ferrari, etc). However, if he had stayed at Pacific in 1994, then I would have loved to have seen him become the "new Roberto Moreno", going round from team to team, from Pacific to Simtek, to Forti, to Lola, then Stewart (as can be seen in my MasterCard Lola thread! page 3... After all, Jackie Stewart would still have known Damon as a young lad), and maybe still finishing his career at Jordan, and as a race winner? (I see Damon at Stewart in 1997 as a mid-season replacement for Jan Magnussen after Lola withdraw from the sport.)

ibsey · Post by **ibsey** » 22 Dec 2016, 10:55

Just read your Lola Thread dr-baker and some really great stuff in there. Thanks for sharing that

Damon going to Stewart in 97 is interesting and I think he would have seen his career out with them had he joined, so never would have joined Jordan. I say this because I reckon he could have been on the podium at Argentina 1997 (maybe with an outside chance at winning?) Bridgstone tyres were the thing to have at that race and I'm sure Panis would have won had he not retired due to a mechanical issue. This along with a few other good results for Hill at Stewart in 1997 would have led Damon to commit his future with them until his eventually retirement in 1999.

I do think Hill at Stewart would have been a good match, and its a shame it didn't happen.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 22 Dec 2016, 17:27

ibsey wrote:I do think Hill at Stewart would have been a good match, and its a shame it didn't happen.

From that Lola thread, Hill going to Stewart definitely seemed to have been considered at the time, and I think it would have been a nice link to history, considering that Jackie Stewart and Graham Hill were contemporaries in the sport, and Damon Hill and Paul Stewart were almost-contemporaries in the junior categories in the mid 1980s to early 1990s.

Whiteshore · Post by **Whiteshore** » 19 Mar 2017, 11:08

What if Honda provided Brawn with engines in 2009? How would Brawn fare with Honda engines?

yannicksamlad · Post by **yannicksamlad** » 19 Mar 2017, 12:48

Whiteshore wrote:What if Honda provided Brawn with engines in 2009? How would Brawn fare with Honda engines?

Well I think the Honda was reliable in 2008, maybe one failure, so perhaps the better fit with the Brawn chassis would have matched the disadvantage of being not as good as a Mercedes- which surely would have been a better engine .
So maybe Brawn would have been just fine -- and that means Honda really would have been just fine too and would have had a fantastic year.
I wonder if anyone at Honda now is thinking about the potential for quitting at the wrong time..

Dj_bereta · Post by **Dj_bereta** » 20 Mar 2017, 23:24

Whiteshore wrote:What if Honda provided Brawn with engines in 2009? How would Brawn fare with Honda engines?

Sebastian Vettel winning his first title one season early. I can't imagine Brawn winning races with a Honda engine.

Nessafox · Post by **Nessafox** » 21 Mar 2017, 02:27

Dj_bereta wrote:
Whiteshore wrote:What if Honda provided Brawn with engines in 2009? How would Brawn fare with Honda engines?

Sebastian Vettel winning his first title one season early. I can't imagine Brawn winning races with a Honda engine.

Maybe one or two races in the beginning of the season when they had the chassis advantage over Red Bull, altough i think that Toyota might have won a few of those races instead. But Vettel would've defenitely be world champion (unless Webber somehow scored significantly more good results)

Whiteshore · Post by **Whiteshore** » 31 Mar 2017, 10:31

What if Tyrrell weren't able to acquire Renault engines in 1985 and instead had to use Hart engines (let's say they bought the engine contract of either Spirit or RAM when they went under akin to how Toleman acquired tires for the 1985 season) for 1985-86? How do they fare with Hart I4 engines?

Post by **mario** » 31 Mar 2017, 21:16

Whiteshore wrote:What if Tyrrell weren't able to acquire Renault engines in 1985 and instead had to use Hart engines (let's say they bought the engine contract of either Spirit or RAM when they went under akin to how Toleman acquired tires for the 1985 season) for 1985-86? How do they fare with Hart I4 engines?

Although Hart had done about as well at it could with the rather limited funds at its disposal, they were struggling by 1985 as the fuel restrictions started to bite - the 415T did tend to have to run a fairly rich fuel mixture (using evaporative cooling to help keep temperatures under control), even if they did try to introduce an electronic fuel injection system so they could lean the mixture out a little around that time.

For 1985, Tyrrell probably wouldn't have done that much worse in the WCC though given that the teams behind them were mostly plagued by terrible reliability, such that they probably would have held onto their position mainly through just being more reliable than their rivals.

They might have found the 1986 season more challenging though, particularly as they cut the fuel allowance again, and their main threat probably would have been the Lola-Ford team (given that the Lola chassis was much better, but Tyrrell had the better engine).

They might have dropped a place in the WCC, but the only saving grace might have been that Brabham and Arrows were going through major problems themselves in 1986 (Brabham's mechanical woes with the inclined engine in the BT55, whilst the A9 had major chassis stiffness issues that forced Arrows to drop the car and revert back to the A8).

Peteroli34 · Post by **Peteroli34** » 31 Mar 2017, 21:33

So the ultimate what if

What if Formula One never existed?

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 01 Apr 2017, 06:50

peteroli34 wrote:So the ultimate what if

What if Formula One never existed?

Then IndyCar would be the dominant premier single-seater category? Whether IndyCar would remain U.S.-centric or go global instead, who knows? But I reckon it would be there that all the top single-seater drivers would go instead, with the lure of the Indy 500. No idea what would happen to the Monaco Grand Prix though?

Jan Magnussen · Post by **Rob Dylan** » 01 Apr 2017, 09:44

While we are dwelling on this subject, what if the current blue flag rules weren't introduced in the mid-1990s, and instead the previous setup remained.

How many races since then have been heavily affected by backmarkers or people not getting out of the way? Or races that, had backmarkers not been made to move, could have been seriously affected?

inoue3210 · Post by **inoue3210** » 02 Apr 2017, 04:22

i remember this being asked for wimille i ithink, maybe it's already been posted, but if varzi survived and competed in f1, would he have had much success?

girry · Post by **girry** » 02 Apr 2017, 09:43

Imagine he might have beaten Farina and Fangio for the first World Championship - depending on luck really, the Alfa was so dominant -, but after that Ascari and Fangio started to become irresistible forces, and Achille himself would have been near his fifties.

Post by **Bobby Doorknobs** » 03 Apr 2017, 09:56

It's striking to think not only of all the lost talents who spent what should have been the prime of their careers waiting out (or serving in) the war (Lang, Farina, Muller, Pietsch, Villoresi), but even the ones who died before the world championship was ever run, yet could have with success had they lived: Wimille, Varzi, Dick Seaman, Guy Moll, Bernd Rosemeyer, René Le Begue, Christian Kautz...

Whiteshore · Post by **Whiteshore** » 03 Apr 2017, 11:00

What if Brabham made it in 1988? How well would they fare? Would they be using "atmo" Ford or Judd engines or BMW I4s (probably rebadged as Megatrons)?

girry · Post by **girry** » 03 Apr 2017, 11:36

Simtek wrote:It's striking to think not only of all the lost talents who spent what should have been the prime of their careers waiting out (or serving in) the war (Lang, Farina, Muller, Pietsch, Villoresi), but even the ones who died before the world championship was ever run, yet could have with success had they lived: Wimille, Varzi, Dick Seaman, Guy Moll, Bernd Rosemeyer, René Le Begue, Christian Kautz...

I'd add Raymond Sommer to the list, as well. Yes, he did manage to compete in the World Championship before dying, but that was just half a year in way inferior equipment - had he survived for a couple of years longer, one can easily imagine he could have been hired by Ferrari in 1951 full time. To this day I still haven't quite understood how Sommer managed to lead the 1950 Spa GP in a Talbot-Lago - comparatively a worse car than Winkelhock's Spyker!

Post by **Bobby Doorknobs** » 03 Apr 2017, 21:28

Whiteshore wrote:What if Brabham made it in 1988? How well would they fare? Would they be using "atmo" Ford or Judd engines or BMW I4s (probably rebadged as Megatrons)?

I reckon the new BT57 would have run well.

Oh, wait...

The Chicane · Post by **The Chicane** » 10 Apr 2017, 18:11

What if MasterCard Lola actually made their planned debut in 1998?

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 10 Apr 2017, 20:47

The Chicane wrote:What if MasterCard Lola actually made their planned debut in 1998?

Depends when they signed their sponsorship deal. They tried entering in '94, '95,...

Still DNQ and bust I reckon.

Ciaran · Post by **Ciaran** » 11 Apr 2017, 15:46

Simtek wrote:
Whiteshore wrote:What if Brabham made it in 1988? How well would they fare? Would they be using "atmo" Ford or Judd engines or BMW I4s (probably rebadged as Megatrons)?

I reckon the new BT57 would have run well.

Oh, wait...

[img.]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fa/Alfa_Romeo_164_procar.jpg[/img]

I'm intrigued by the idea of a Brabham-Alfa pairing in 1988. Maybe I could make a test hack of it for rFactor for the craic... :deletraz:

ibsey · Post by **ibsey** » 25 Apr 2017, 06:25

What if the safety changes introduced in the wake of Senna's death at Spain,Canada & Germany 1994, were delayed until 1995 as I believe the majority of the teams wanted?

Do people feel there would have been more serious accidents in the remainder of the 1994 had the cars been allowed to continue pre Barcelona 1994 spec?

Or do you think the FIA did the right thing in rushing through the Barcelona 1994 changes as the FIA did?

Post by **mario** » 25 Apr 2017, 07:02

ibsey wrote:What if the safety changes introduced in the wake of Senna's death at Spain,Canada & Germany 1994, were delayed until 1995 as I believe the majority of the teams wanted?

Do people feel there would have been more serious accidents in the remainder of the 1994 had the cars been allowed to continue pre Barcelona 1994 spec?

Or do you think the FIA did the right thing in rushing through the Barcelona 1994 changes as the FIA did?

I think that, in the wider world, there would have been a major outcry if the sport appeared to be continuing on as if nothing had happened, especially given that, at the time that the Spanish GP was talking place, Wendlinger was still in a coma in hospital following his accident in Monaco.

To some extent, I think that they had to be shown to be doing something in the wake of a string of serious accidents, given that otherwise there might have been a significant backlash from the press and from sponsors. If there had been another serious accident later that season - we cannot know for certain, but it is indeed possible that something could have happened - then I think that the sport would have probably been forced into making those sorts of changes under the threat of external action by third parties.

ibsey · Post by **ibsey** » 25 Apr 2017, 07:23

mario wrote:
ibsey wrote:What if the safety changes introduced in the wake of Senna's death at Spain,Canada & Germany 1994, were delayed until 1995 as I believe the majority of the teams wanted?

Do people feel there would have been more serious accidents in the remainder of the 1994 had the cars been allowed to continue pre Barcelona 1994 spec?

Or do you think the FIA did the right thing in rushing through the Barcelona 1994 changes as the FIA did?

I think that, in the wider world, there would have been a major outcry if the sport appeared to be continuing on as if nothing had happened, especially given that, at the time that the Spanish GP was talking place, Wendlinger was still in a coma in hospital following his accident in Monaco.

To some extent, I think that they had to be shown to be doing something in the wake of a string of serious accidents, given that otherwise there might have been a significant backlash from the press and from sponsors. If there had been another serious accident later that season - we cannot know for certain, but it is indeed possible that something could have happened - then I think that the sport would have probably been forced into making those sorts of changes under the threat of external action by third parties.

Thanks for the prompt response Mario

Somewhere in this article...

http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/archi ... ry-1995/12

..Max Mosley said at Monaco 1994 he was coming under pressure from third parties, IIRC Italian/French politcians and teams were coming under pressure from major sponsors and manufactures etc. Hence he had to be seen to be doing something, where it was right or wrong.

The reason why I have asked the question, is because in spite of the pressure from their sponsors & manufactures for safety, the majority of the teams still appeared against rushing through the changes at Barcelona 1994. IIRC the teams were arguring that although the speeds would be reduced as a result of the Barcelona spec changes the risks of an accident were higher, because the cars were more unstable. So were the teams correct about this and could Lamy's accident could have therefore been avoided?

Or if the teams had their way, and the cars remained as they were pre Barcelona spec, might there have been a more serious accident later in the season - which could have plunged F1 into even more turnmoil?

CoopsII · Post by **CoopsII** » 25 Apr 2017, 07:53

What if Alonso wins the Indy 500?

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 25 Apr 2017, 10:51

CoopsII wrote:What if Alonso wins the Indy 500?

Then expect to see him competing in a GT McLaren at Le Mans next year (or maybe an LMP1 Porsche or Toyota).