Grand Prix Rejects

Salamander wrote:

mrfakeboullier wrote:Williams have a habit of making bad drivers world champions.

So, Alain Prost is a bad driver?

Is Nigel Mansell a bad driver?
Not to mention Alan Jones and Nelson Piquet.

roblomas52 wrote:

Salamander wrote:

mrfakeboullier wrote:Williams have a habit of making bad drivers world champions.

So, Alain Prost is a bad driver?

Is Nigel Mansell a bad driver?
Not to mention Alan Jones and Nelson Piquet.

Or Damon Hill and Jacques Villeneuve?

Pretty much all the drivers mentioned there are not known for their one-lap pace. But it doesn't make them bad drivers.

mrfakeboullier wrote:Williams have a habit of making bad drivers world champions.

No bad driver has ever won a race let alone a championship so stop being silly.

CoopsII wrote:

mrfakeboullier wrote:Williams have a habit of making bad drivers world champions.

No bad driver has ever won a race let alone a championship so stop being silly.

<Insert dig at Jenson Button here>

I kinda lost the fervor for that one.

CoopsII wrote:

mrfakeboullier wrote:Williams have a habit of making bad drivers world champions.

No bad driver has ever won a race let alone a championship so stop being silly.

The exception to the above sentence:

The 2014 Maldonado is arguably a bit pants but back in 2012 he was doing a great job of dispelling the accusation he was only in F1 because he had money(as true as that technically was). Frustratingly, his fall from grace appeared to begin right after that win.

CoopsII wrote:The 2014 Maldonado is arguably a bit pants but back in 2012 he was doing a great job of dispelling the accusation he was only in F1 because he had money(as true as that technically was). Frustratingly, his fall from grace appeared to begin right after that win.

The only year where Maldonado has been decent has been 2012, where he was placed above fellow crashkid Grosjean in the end of season rankings on the main website. But ironically it was Grosjean who has improved since and proven himself to be champion material. In the rest of Pastor's career, there have been a lot of crashes, especially in the first two years and then he calmed down a little in 2013, before returning to recklessness this year.

Now if Esteban Gutierrez won a race...

Miguel98 wrote:

CoopsII wrote:

mrfakeboullier wrote:Williams have a habit of making bad drivers world champions.

No bad driver has ever won a race let alone a championship so stop being silly.

The exception to the above sentence:

Yes, because beating Fernando Alonso on track doesn't require any talent at all.

I would say that Williams certainly has the most "reject-champions" something I just coined right now. JV, Hill, and Rosberg spring readily to mind. Plus Pastor won a race, which I still cannot believe, and Derek Daly came oh so close to winning Monaco in Williams. Are the cars that good? (cough) MANSALL! JV! (cough) or does the team elevate the drivers?

CoopsII wrote:

mrfakeboullier wrote:Williams have a habit of making bad drivers world champions.

No bad driver has ever won a race let alone a championship so stop being silly.

While I can't really think of anything to prove you wrong (I can think of a lot of race winners who probably didn't really deserve their wins, but they were by no means bad), you can say that there are some drivers who deserved to win races yet didn't, while some race winners shouldn't have won a race. It's a travesty, for example, that Vittorio Brambilla and Giancarlo Baghetti each won a race, yet Chris Amon and Stefan Johansson did not.

tommykl wrote:

CoopsII wrote:

mrfakeboullier wrote:Williams have a habit of making bad drivers world champions.

No bad driver has ever won a race let alone a championship so stop being silly.

While I can't really think of anything to prove you wrong (I can think of a lot of race winners who probably didn't really deserve their wins, but they were by no means bad), you can say that there are some drivers who deserved to win races yet didn't, while some race winners shouldn't have won a race. It's a travesty, for example, that Vittorio Brambilla and Giancarlo Baghetti each won a race, yet Chris Amon and Stefan Johansson did not.

When I think lucky winner, I think Olivier Panis.

Panis and Brambilla may not have been the best drivers to win races, but when they won they certainly did put in performances worthy of a win. And, to be honest, the same goes for Maldonado. Perhaps narring Baghetti, I wouldn't say any of the f1 drivers have won races because of sheer luck and having a dominant car.

Is it just me who thinks Ricky is getting just a little bit too much credit for the job he's doing against Vettel?

First things first our new Aussie star deserves a lot of praise for what he's done so far this year: The most podiums after the 2 Mercedes cars, The only non Mercedes win in Canada, A current 7-3 qualifying lead against Seb so far in qualifying and doing it all with the nicest smile to boot

But I think if you look more into his days at Toro Rosso and to me it's not really a great surprise that he's more than a match for Seb in one lap trim. In a Toro Rosso that was no more than 9th and 8th fastest at best in 2012 and 2013 he dragged that car into places that it had no right to be in (6th in Bahrain 2012 anyone?) which reminds me of Webber in his Jaguar days. In qualifying especially I'm not surprised of his one lap speed

In races I'd say that Bahrain and China were definitely Daniel races (And Australia too but we'll never know if Seb had a clean weekend) But I feel as if Seb had the pace in Spain to take that last podium himself without his car breakage in qualifying. Although his win in Canada was good to me it was in a similar vein to Rosberg in Silverstone last year as the Mercs hit trouble and Vettel's race was ruined by strategy and the RBR not being able to pass quicker cars in a straight line. In Britain Ricky's ability to do just a 1 stop got him ahead of Seb while on the same strategy Seb would have finished miles ahead. Malaysia was Seb's race even before Ricky's race completely fell apart in the last quarter and that race was one of the few where Seb didn't have a single problem to deal with.

So to summerise while Ricky's done a mega job so far I think we should keep it in a little perspective and wait after maybe 2 or 3 seasons if the 2 are still team-mates before we can decide where Ricky's place really lies

Freeze-O-Kimi wrote:Is it just me who thinks Ricky is getting just a little bit too much credit for the job he's doing against Vettel?

First things first our new Aussie star deserves a lot of praise for what he's done so far this year: The most podiums after the 2 Mercedes cars, The only non Mercedes win in Canada, A current 7-3 qualifying lead against Seb so far in qualifying and doing it all with the nicest smile to boot

But I think if you look more into his days at Toro Rosso and to me it's not really a great surprise that he's more than a match for Seb in one lap trim. In a Toro Rosso that was no more than 9th and 8th fastest at best in 2012 and 2013 he dragged that car into places that it had no right to be in (6th in Bahrain 2012 anyone?) which reminds me of Webber in his Jaguar days. In qualifying especially I'm not surprised of his one lap speed

In races I'd say that Bahrain and China were definitely Daniel races (And Australia too but we'll never know if Seb had a clean weekend) But I feel as if Seb had the pace in Spain to take that last podium himself without his car breakage in qualifying. Although his win in Canada was good to me it was in a similar vein to Rosberg in Silverstone last year as the Mercs hit trouble and Vettel's race was ruined by strategy and the RBR not being able to pass quicker cars in a straight line. In Britain Ricky's ability to do just a 1 stop got him ahead of Seb while on the same strategy Seb would have finished miles ahead. Malaysia was Seb's race even before Ricky's race completely fell apart in the last quarter and that race was one of the few where Seb didn't have a single problem to deal with.

So to summerise while Ricky's done a mega job so far I think we should keep it in a little perspective and wait after maybe 2 or 3 seasons if the 2 are still team-mates before we can decide where Ricky's place really lies

I was thinking exactly the same thing as you. Ironic that in the races before Spain where Daniel could have scored podiums, he was unlucky not to do so, yet in most the races since where he has been in the top 3 he has been lucky to finish there! He was unlucky in Bahrain and China, although he wasn't the certain 3rd best driver in either of those races, other drivers were just as good as him. Also in Monaco he was only 5th before Vettel and Raikkonen had problems and he surely wouldn't have scored a podium there either without that happening. What is more Ricciardo hasn't started in the top 3 since Monaco.

good_Ralf wrote:

Freeze-O-Kimi wrote:Is it just me who thinks Ricky is getting just a little bit too much credit for the job he's doing against Vettel?

First things first our new Aussie star deserves a lot of praise for what he's done so far this year: The most podiums after the 2 Mercedes cars, The only non Mercedes win in Canada, A current 7-3 qualifying lead against Seb so far in qualifying and doing it all with the nicest smile to boot

But I think if you look more into his days at Toro Rosso and to me it's not really a great surprise that he's more than a match for Seb in one lap trim. In a Toro Rosso that was no more than 9th and 8th fastest at best in 2012 and 2013 he dragged that car into places that it had no right to be in (6th in Bahrain 2012 anyone?) which reminds me of Webber in his Jaguar days. In qualifying especially I'm not surprised of his one lap speed

In races I'd say that Bahrain and China were definitely Daniel races (And Australia too but we'll never know if Seb had a clean weekend) But I feel as if Seb had the pace in Spain to take that last podium himself without his car breakage in qualifying. Although his win in Canada was good to me it was in a similar vein to Rosberg in Silverstone last year as the Mercs hit trouble and Vettel's race was ruined by strategy and the RBR not being able to pass quicker cars in a straight line. In Britain Ricky's ability to do just a 1 stop got him ahead of Seb while on the same strategy Seb would have finished miles ahead. Malaysia was Seb's race even before Ricky's race completely fell apart in the last quarter and that race was one of the few where Seb didn't have a single problem to deal with.

So to summerise while Ricky's done a mega job so far I think we should keep it in a little perspective and wait after maybe 2 or 3 seasons if the 2 are still team-mates before we can decide where Ricky's place really lies

I was thinking exactly the same thing as you. Ironic that in the races before Spain where Daniel could have scored podiums, he was unlucky not to do so, yet in most the races since where he has been in the top 3 he has been lucky to finish there! He was unlucky in Bahrain and China, although he wasn't the certain 3rd best driver in either of those races, other drivers were just as good as him. Also in Monaco he was only 5th before Vettel and Raikkonen had problems and he surely wouldn't have scored a podium there either without that happening. What is more Ricciardo hasn't started in the top 3 since Monaco.

In Britain I think you could put that down to the fact that like Hamilton Ricky thought it wouldn't get any quicker in the last few minutes when it unexpectedly did but yes that is a surprise for him

roblomas52 wrote:

Salamander wrote:

mrfakeboullier wrote:Williams have a habit of making bad drivers world champions.

So, Alain Prost is a bad driver?

Is Nigel Mansell a bad driver?
Not to mention Alan Jones and Nelson Piquet.

Let me re-phrase that. Williams have a habit of making "one year wonders" or overrated drivers World Champions (Jones, Villeneuve, Hill, Rosberg Sr. etc.)

mrfakeboullier wrote: Williams have a habit of making "one year wonders" or overrated drivers World Champions (Jones, Villeneuve, Hill, Rosberg Sr. etc.)

They're only one-year wonders because they refuse to pay driver champions the going rate and therefore the drivers leave after their title success (Mansell to IndyCars, Hill to Arrows, Villeneuve to a team based around him, Prost into retirement).

dr-baker wrote:

mrfakeboullier wrote: Williams have a habit of making "one year wonders" or overrated drivers World Champions (Jones, Villeneuve, Hill, Rosberg Sr. etc.)

They're only one-year wonders because they refuse to pay driver champions the going rate and therefore the drivers leave after their title success (Mansell to IndyCars, Hill to Arrows, Villeneuve to a team based around him, Prost into retirement).

Villeneuve didn't leave instantly, he was still with Williams in '98.

FMecha wrote:

dr-baker wrote:

mrfakeboullier wrote: Williams have a habit of making "one year wonders" or overrated drivers World Champions (Jones, Villeneuve, Hill, Rosberg Sr. etc.)

They're only one-year wonders because they refuse to pay driver champions the going rate and therefore the drivers leave after their title success (Mansell to IndyCars, Hill to Arrows, Villeneuve to a team based around him, Prost into retirement).

Villeneuve didn't leave instantly, he was still with Williams in '98.

Neither did Rosberg or Jones leave.

The problem for anyone driving for Williams is that they are not Alan Jones.

watka wrote:The problem for anyone driving for Williams is that they are not Alan Jones.

Ah yes, the famous quote by Keke Rosberg - apparently, when Nico Rosberg chose to drive for Williams he also joked that Sir Frank was disappointed that he wasn't Alan Jones either...

mario wrote:

watka wrote:The problem for anyone driving for Williams is that they are not Alan Jones.

Ah yes, the famous quote by Keke Rosberg - apparently, when Nico Rosberg chose to drive for Williams he also joked that Sir Frank was disappointed that he wasn't Alan Jones either...

In 2012, Frank stated that Maldonado reminded him of Alan Jones, but of course that turned out to be an incorrect statement too!

one year wonders?

Jones dominated the second half of '79 and is a race winner for Shadow Grand Prix

Villeneuve is an Indy 505 winner and almost won the title on his debut season

Hill was a legitimate championship contender on 3 of his 4 seasons in a Williams, won for Jordan and, oh-so-heart breakingly, almost won for Arrows

Keke, now perhaps he's only had one season when everything clicked together, but he's won an unofficial F1 race in a Theodore and is still revered for his superb car control...

...not the best drivers of their eras, sure, but "one year wonders"? Come on...

giraurd wrote:Keke, now perhaps he's only had one season when everything clicked together, but he's won an unofficial F1 race in a Theodore and is still revered for his superb car control...

He also never really had a title winner after 1982 - well apart from 1986, but he was never going to challenge for the title with Prost in the same team, with the Williams as dominant as it was.

Wallio wrote:I would say that Williams certainly has the most "reject-champions" something I just coined right now. JV, Hill, and Rosberg spring readily to mind. Plus Pastor won a race, which I still cannot believe, and Derek Daly came oh so close to winning Monaco in Williams. Are the cars that good? (cough) MANSALL! JV! (cough) or does the team elevate the drivers?

Agreed. Although Hill was a great development driver (just look at what he did at Arrows), in quali and race trim he was merely 'OK'. JV had the odd race where he showed some flair, but was mostly sub-par - certainly not championship worthy.

If I'm honest, I still haven't fully developed an opinion of Mansell's talents, but I know it's certainly nowhere near approaching the level of praise he still gets in the British media.

dr-baker wrote:

mrfakeboullier wrote: Williams have a habit of making "one year wonders" or overrated drivers World Champions (Jones, Villeneuve, Hill, Rosberg Sr. etc.)

They're only one-year wonders because they refuse to pay driver champions the going rate and therefore the drivers leave after their title success (Mansell to IndyCars, Hill to Arrows, Villeneuve to a team based around him, Prost into retirement).

Yeah, there's having an unpopular opinion and then there's just making stuff up.

Maldonado would have done a better job than Massa if he stayed in Williams in this year.

Dj_bereta wrote:Maldonado would have done a better job than Massa if he stayed in Williams in this year.

I'd like to think that would be true. He certainly couldn't get into any more crashes...

As much as I love Webber, Daniel Ricciardo deserves a WDC more than he ever did.

And yes, I realise I'm sounding like a band-wagon jumper-onner, but I rated Ricciardo as a gun even before his HRT days when he blitzed the young driver's test in 2009.

AustralianStig wrote:As much as I love Webber, Daniel Ricciardo deserves a WDC more than he ever did.

He deserves fook all until he's won it, mate. He's the star of the season for me thus far but it is worth noting he's not been under alot of pressure as the expectation was that Vettel would be lead driver. If Vettel gets his act together and Ricciardo begins to struggle it'll be interesting to see how he copes. My money is on that he'll cope really well but you never know.

I would like to see IndyCar and F1 have races on the same weekend together at Austin, Texas and Montreal, Quebec.

CoopsII wrote:

AustralianStig wrote:As much as I love Webber, Daniel Ricciardo deserves a WDC more than he ever did.

He deserves fook all until he's won it, mate. He's the star of the season for me thus far but it is worth noting he's not been under alot of pressure as the expectation was that Vettel would be lead driver. If Vettel gets his act together and Ricciardo begins to struggle it'll be interesting to see how he copes. My money is on that he'll cope really well but you never know.

Perhaps the better way of putting it is that Ricciardo looks like he is potentially in a stronger position to win a WDC than Webber based on his current performance - as you say, a fair chunk of that may well be down to the fact that, in effect, a fair amount of the pressure and expectation that was on him before the season was written off when it became clear that the team were struggling for performance, therefore taking away the expectations of being in the WDC hunt.

To a certain extent, Ricciardo was probably in a position where he could gain more than he could potentially lose - if he was beaten by Vettel, then that could be ascribed to the position Vettel has as the incumbent driver, whilst beating him so far this season has raised his stock by quite a bit. However, the question is going to be how Ricciardo can perform once he faces the stronger challenge of trying to take the title and how he can respond if Vettel's form improves (you suspect that Vettel is going to rebound sooner or later) - as you say, it is how he responds once that greater pressure is on him that will be the test of whether he can earn a WDC in the right circumstances.

Ricciardo has done a great job so far this year, but if JEV had been picked to go to Red Bull he would be dominating Vettel as well, and Ricciardo would still be stuck at Torro Rosso trying to stand out from Kvyat and looking at his F1 career becoming a dead end in a year or two.

I raised this in a slightly different context as a question on the 'what if' thread and nobody would touch it, so I guess that qualifies as unpopular!

More_Blue_Flags wrote:Ricciardo has done a great job so far this year, but if JEV had been picked to go to Red Bull he would be dominating Vettel as well

What makes you say that?

SgtPepper wrote:

More_Blue_Flags wrote:Ricciardo has done a great job so far this year, but if JEV had been picked to go to Red Bull he would be dominating Vettel as well

What makes you say that?

Probably the fact that they were very evenly matched over their two years together at Toro Rosso. I gotta say I'm with More Blue Flags on this one, although Rickety has definitely had a better rub of the green than Vergne has in his career.

SgtPepper wrote:

More_Blue_Flags wrote:Ricciardo has done a great job so far this year, but if JEV had been picked to go to Red Bull he would be dominating Vettel as well

What makes you say that?

I may have slightly overstated the case by using 'dominating', and it would probably be more accurate to say that JEV's performance relative to Vettel's would be about the same as Ricciardo's now - and his overall performance would look as impressive. The key elements are:

1. Looking back to this time last year, I didn't think there was much to choose between JEV or Ricciardo and either could have got the Red Bull drive.
2. Vettel has - despite some epic driving on occasion - struggled to adapt to the characteristics of the new car.
3. Based on his early season performance in particular before the Toro Rosso/Renault gremlins really set in, JEV has adapted to the general characteristics of the turbo cars better than Vettel has.

dr-baker wrote:I would like to see IndyCar and F1 have races on the same weekend together at Austin, Texas and Montreal, Quebec.

Why? Because logistical nightmares viewed from afar make you happy?

I don't really want Sauber to score any points this season, simply so that Marussia get to keep that 9th place in the WCC. Sauber have been so awful this season that they don't deserve to beat Marussia in the standings.

I reckon this opinion might go down like a lead balloon, but hey ho...

East Londoner wrote:I don't really want Sauber to score any points this season, simply so that Marussia get to keep that 9th place in the WCC. Sauber have been so awful this season that they don't deserve to beat Marussia in the standings.

I reckon this opinion might go down like a lead balloon, but hey ho...

Not unpopular at all. That would be awesome