Rantbox

[DanielPT]

Why people is so skeptical with RBR's chance this year? I don't get it.

From the way I see it, it is not really with RBR but with Renault. Engines will have an important role to play this year and that might offset aerodynamics advantage, the strong point of RBR. Also, the only weaknesses demonstrated last year by RBR were cooling and packaging (in the sense of their batteries placing) which influenced electronics involved with KERS. This year, with ERS-K and ERS-H being more important, issues surrounding this could also play a part, as it already has been in a troubled pre-season for the team. Although no one would be against RBR solving these problems and going into juggernaut feast, the Renault issues are more difficult as it is not really up to them to solve it. It appears that they have bet on the wrong horse, sorry, engine.

[Salamander]

Why people is so skeptical with RBR's chance this year? I don't get it.

Because the Renault engine is garbage and the design of the Red Bull only makes the problem worse.

[CoopsII]

Why people is so skeptical with RBR's chance this year? I don't get it.

Because their testing program so far has been appalling by anybodys standard. Im sure they'll work some stuff out once the season begins but initially they're struggling.

Perhaps they will progress when others decline through the year, thats their best chance.

[AdrianSutil]

Well Mercedes, McLaren and Ferrari will need to get out of the blocks quick if they want to pull away from the other teams.

[watka]

Why people is so skeptical with RBR's chance this year? I don't get it.

Red Bull's car is fundamentally flawed. You can't go around with cooling holes in the car just so the car doesn't blow up. Newey is pretty famous/infamous for his "tight packages" (no sniggering at the back, please) and thinking of aerodynamics first and mechanics later. At McLaren we also saw the Mercedes engines go off like hand grenades because of the car's design. Quite frankly, even if the Renault engine gets sorted they still have the problem of putting in an ERS system is a very restricted space without having issues; something that Red Bull have never achieved. Not a criticism of Newey, he's clearly a genius and a risk-taker, its just that with his approach he's either spot on or the car has serious problems.

When a major rule change comes in, it is often other teams (notably Ross Brawn-led teams) that come up with the best initial design but then Newey comes along and perfects it. So I have no doubt that if this year is a disaster, Red Bull will be right back up there again next year.

[dr-baker]

Newey is pretty famous/infamous for his "tight packages" (no sniggering at the back, please)

Sorry, Mr Watka Sir. It won't happen again.


*sniggering, with fingers crossed behing his back*

[go_Rubens]

Why people is so skeptical with RBR's chance this year? I don't get it.

The car is fundamentally flawed. The car has the Renault power unit, which has a flaw already with the ERS-K unit not working properly because of wonky electronics. Losing out on an extra 160 bhp for 33 seconds a lap is nowhere newr good in today's F1. The power unit also has had cooling issues. To make things worse, the Red Bull car was designed with issues as well. Nthe car was packaged nowhere near correctly, as in the car is incompatible with the power unit. Red Bull have the challenge of having the battery unit in a place where they have never tried to put it, and the results speak an error of large proportions from Adrian Newey. The car, along with Renault's issues, also has problems. The car has packaging that affects the cooling massively. Now, these issues aren't as prominent now, but they are still there. Red Bull has done only about 20 or so laps in succession as its longest stint in Bahrain, if I'm not mistaken, and look like they along with Lotus will need luck to finish in Australia.

Look at the testing results:

Total 2014 test distance - by team (power unit, where different):
1. Mercedes, 4972.644 km
2. Williams (Mercedes), 4893.432 km
3. Ferrari, 4488.516 km
4. McLaren (Mercedes), 4153.464 km
5. Sauber (Ferrari), 4039.32 km
6. Force India (Mercedes), 3974.868 km
7. Caterham (Renault), 3313.128 km
8. Toro Rosso (Renault), 2436.384 km
9. Red Bull (Renault), 1705.764 km
10. Marussia (Ferrari), 1686.084 km
11. Lotus (Renault), 1288.056 km (Lotus missed opening Jerez test)

It speaks for itself. Red Bull will rebound, there is no doubt about that, but when is the big question, and it looks like it will be a long time before Red Bull can fix these issues completely, which by then all title hopes may possibly be in an abyss.

Therefore, my rankings for Red Bull are quite low. After the second test, I had them ranked 7th. Right now, they only look good for 5th or 6th. But I expect them to be right back up there for 2015, no doubt about it.

Red Bull should take this as a learning year. I wouldn't worry too much about the championship. Just learn from your mistakes and move on. If I were Christian Horner, that's what I'd do, because Red Bull's cash income is still quite hefty anyway. They'd still likely by 2016 be enjoying a very large and healthy budget, when prize money comes into effect.

[CarlosFerreira]

Raikkonen won't make it to the end of the season. And Massa will be vindicated.

[CoopsII]

Raikkonen won't make it to the end of the season. And Massa will be vindicated.

Bit early for the Raikkonnen point but I think Massa's been vindicated already despite being punted off.

[DanielPT]

Raikkonen won't make it to the end of the season. And Massa will be vindicated.

You really dislike Kimi, Carlos!
But he will last the distance, I think. Although I am unsure if he keeps there for next year. I thought he wasn't too far off Alonso and drove a what he could, but is it RoTR material? I don't think so. Apparently, expectations about this particular intra-team battle might be a bit delusional. We will see how he will respond in the next races but more often than not he will finish behind Alonso and if that happens I will re-evaluate last year's Lotus accordingly.

[CarlosFerreira]

Raikkonen won't make it to the end of the season. And Massa will be vindicated.

You really dislike Kimi, Carlos!
But he will last the distance, I think. Although I am unsure if he keeps there for next year. I thought he wasn't too far off Alonso and drove a what he could, but is it RoTR material? I don't think so. Apparently, expectations about this particular intra-team battle might be a bit delusional. We will see how he will respond in the next races but more often than not he will finish behind Alonso and if that happens I will re-evaluate last year's Lotus accordingly.

I dislike what Kimi has become. I think I haven't seen him consistently wanting to win and be the best since around 2005/2006. And I really detested how he got fired for being rubbish in 2009, went to roll Fiestas in the woods, and then came back looking like it was the second coming. Pathetic.

Kimi has no motivation whatsoever, and the manner of his leaving Lotus last year showed it once again. The truth is that he couldn't be bothered to put in the effort as soon as Grosjean started whooping him day in, day out. Honestly, I really suspect that Alonso will make mincemeat out of him in the next few races, and that Ferrari will kick him out of the door before the season is finished.

I may be wrong; maybe he just had a wretched time in Melbourne. But I suspect we'll start seeing the old despondency soon.

[DanielPT]

I dislike what Kimi has become. I think I haven't seen him consistently wanting to win and be the best since around 2005/2006. And I really detested how he got fired for being rubbish in 2009, went to roll Fiestas in the woods, and then came back looking like it was the second coming. Pathetic.

Kimi has no motivation whatsoever, and the manner of his leaving Lotus last year showed it once again. The truth is that he couldn't be bothered to put in the effort as soon as Grosjean started whooping him day in, day out. Honestly, I really suspect that Alonso will make mincemeat out of him in the next few races, and that Ferrari will kick him out of the door before the season is finished.

I may be wrong; maybe he just had a wretched time in Melbourne. But I suspect we'll start seeing the old despondency soon.

I can see your point, but he did good things in that Lotus. Also, he did win the Championship in 07 though. Arguably in a better car. I do completely agree on the idea that Alonso might make mincemeat out of him. I think I said last year that I believed that this fight would not be as close as people thought it would and I still stand by it. I think that Kimi might bother Alonso more than Massa, though!

[CarlosFerreira]

Also, he did win the Championship in 07 though.

Nope, McLaren lost it.

[SgtPepper]

Wow, and I thought I was anti-Vettel Carlos!

Kimi's performance was peculiar this weekend, he just couldn't seem to get to grips with the car. There does seem to be evidence that the Ferraris were having electrical problems - http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2014/03/16/alonso-raikkonen-concerned-ferrari-pace/;

Ferrari said they had electrical problems with their cars during the race. “We had some issues but I don’t know,” Rakkonen told reporters. “There was a lot of things happening and until we look into those things I don’t really know what is what.”

But if that was the case, were they worse on Kimi's car than Alonso's? Or is Alonso simply the calibre of driver that he was able to drive around them more than Kimi? I was one of those who felt that it would be relatively close between the two Ferrari drivers, and it will be interesting to see if it was electrical gremlins, or if Kimi has already been royally outclassed by Alonso.

Also, he did win the Championship in 07 though.

Nope, McLaren lost it.

To be fair, you could argue Mclaren lost him the championship in '05.

[CarlosFerreira]

Wow, and I thought I was anti-Vettel Carlos!

I'm not Anti-Raikkonen, it just annoys me that hi return was hailed as the Second Coming. He is not the Messiah, he is a very naughty boy.

[girry]

Kimi was rubbish at Melbourne due to multiple reasons - he's always been picky about having a car work for him, whilst Alonso is always convincing with any given shitbox ... but claiming he has no motivation? To me, his body language seems very eager and motivated at the moment.

I suppose the interpretation differences are due to being from different cultures...

[noiceinmydrink]

I'm not Anti-Raikkonen, it just annoys me that hi return was hailed as the Second Coming. He is not the Messiah, he is a very naughty boy.

This, my friends, is how you use a Monty Python quote properly.

[Jocke1]

I dislike what Kimi has become. And I really detested how he came back looking like it was the second coming. Pathetic.

^^ http://youtu.be/r0Xf8IGuuIk?t=1h2m20s ^^

[CarlosFerreira]

I dislike what Kimi has become. And I really detested how he came back looking like it was the second coming. Pathetic.

^^ http://youtu.be/r0Xf8IGuuIk?t=1h2m20s ^^

Your link is broken in the UK, so here you go.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zjz16xjeBAA

[Jocke1]

I dislike what Kimi has become. And I really detested how he came back looking like it was the second coming. Pathetic.

^^ http://youtu.be/r0Xf8IGuuIk?t=1h2m20s ^^

Your link is broken in the UK, so here you go.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zjz16xjeBAA

That's not the scene I linked to, though. The scene/quote in my link, is where Cleese yells "An unbeliever! Persecute! Kill the heretic!"
Meaning you .

[CarlosFerreira]

That's not the scene I linked to, though. The scene/quote in my link, is where Cleese yells "An unbeliever! Persecute! Kill the heretic!"
Meaning you .

Oh yeah? What has Raikkonen ever done for us anyway?

[noiceinmydrink]

Oh yeah? What has Raikkonen ever done for us anyway?

Absolutely nothing. But that's the beauty of him, he just shows up, drives the car fast, leaves. People love that, and his honesty in interviews (which I can respect). That being said, I'm not a Raikkonen fan myself. I have a lot of respect for people who what working is. Kimi has a piss poor work ethic and a shite attitude. No buys.

He's also a great source of comic relief to some. Yeah, I see him all the time as a subject on WTF1 articles. That sums him up in a way, he's a comedy figure; a joke.

[Cynon]

That's not the scene I linked to, though. The scene/quote in my link, is where Cleese yells "An unbeliever! Persecute! Kill the heretic!"
Meaning you .

Oh yeah? What has Raikkonen ever done for us anyway?

Kept ice cream vendors and Coca-Cola in business single handedly.

Also, I hate posting from my phone.

[dr-baker]

I'm not Anti-Raikkonen, it just annoys me that hi return was hailed as the Second Coming. He is not the Messiah, he is a very naughty boy.

This, my friends, is how you use a Monty Python quote properly.

Nice tits honeybun. My nipples explode with delight!

...is how not to do it!

[SgtPepper]

I'm starting to get increasingly annoyed with what is fast becoming 'noise-gate'.

With the Australian GP organisers complaining, and Bernie "horrified".

Yes, of course I also prefer the V8 sound, although the sound of the V6s as they brake and run-down for corners is pretty incredible. But after years of aero-dependancy, one car domination, bullet-proof reliability, and bland DRS overtakes (time will tell if these remain), we now have a formula that has brought mechanical proficiancy to the forefront, unpredictability, road car relevancy and enough torque to make the cars require raw talent to drive again, rather than whoever simply has the most downforce and planted rear-end.

As much as I miss the sound of old-F1, particularly the V10s, to me it seems a price worth paying, and it if this continues to snowball it will smack slightly of not seeing the wood for the trees.

[CarlosFerreira]

I prefer the sound of the V6s to the annoying, pencil-sharpener V8s.

[pasta_maldonado]

I'm starting to get increasingly annoyed with what is fast becoming 'noise-gate'.

With the Australian GP organisers complaining, and Bernie "horrified".

Yes, of course I also prefer the V8 sound, although the sound of the V6s as they brake and run-down for corners is pretty incredible. But after years of aero-dependancy, one car domination, bullet-proof reliability, and bland DRS overtakes (time will tell if these remain), we now have a formula that has brought mechanical proficiancy to the forefront, unpredictability, road car relevancy and enough torque to make the cars require raw talent to drive again, rather than whoever simply has the most downforce and planted rear-end.

As much as I miss the sound of old-F1, particularly the V10s, to me it seems a price worth paying, and it if this continues to snowball it will smack slightly of not seeing the wood for the trees.

Agreed. I dont see why anyone misses the ear-breaking noise - the new V6s not only sound better, but it's great to hear more on the TV. As someone on the Sky coverage pointed out, it makes the cars seem faster, as there's no longer the 20 second pre-warning of the loud screams as they approach.

[SgtPepper]

I'm starting to get increasingly annoyed with what is fast becoming 'noise-gate'.

With the Australian GP organisers complaining, and Bernie "horrified".

Yes, of course I also prefer the V8 sound, although the sound of the V6s as they brake and run-down for corners is pretty incredible. But after years of aero-dependancy, one car domination, bullet-proof reliability, and bland DRS overtakes (time will tell if these remain), we now have a formula that has brought mechanical proficiancy to the forefront, unpredictability, road car relevancy and enough torque to make the cars require raw talent to drive again, rather than whoever simply has the most downforce and planted rear-end.

As much as I miss the sound of old-F1, particularly the V10s, to me it seems a price worth paying, and it if this continues to snowball it will smack slightly of not seeing the wood for the trees.

Agreed. I dont see why anyone misses the ear-breaking noise - the new V6s not only sound better, but it's great to hear more on the TV. As someone on the Sky coverage pointed out, it makes the cars seem faster, as there's no longer the 20 second pre-warning of the loud screams as they approach.

Maybe I like the V8s so much because I already have quite a lot of hearing damage from when I was in a band as a teenager, and was quite happy at Silverstone to watch the whole thing without earplugs - when I was there and heard the cars for the first time from half a mile away it was spine-tingling.

But some comments online seem to be arguing that it means 'it's no longer F1'. Maybe if this anger was focussed on double points, which threatens the very legitimacy of whoever wins this year's championship, or DRS which removes the skill from wheel to wheel overtakes (my personal true test of driving talent), instead of the noise, some real progress could be made.

[DanielPT]

I reckon that it was weird to watch F1 with the new V6 turbo noise. You could even hear the tyres squealing. It was weirder than I thought but not in a bad way. So it is only a matter of getting used to. I still quite like the noise of these cars.

[noiceinmydrink]

I hated the V8s. Nails on a chalkboards stuff that I eventually got used to. I love the V6s.

[CarlosFerreira]

I hated the V8s. Nails on a chalkboards stuff that I eventually got used to. I love the V6s.

What the man said.

[WeirdKerr]

I miss the sounds of the OLD turbos

[go_Rubens]

Really? Can these guys just shut the hell up about noise? Bernie makes himself seem like a butthurt person YouTube who doesn't want change, while the Aussie GP organizers may have a point, but it seems like a mighty overreaction to claim it was "in breach of contract." The fans could be disappointed, but quite honestly, it's like these fans and people aren't true F1 fans. True F1 fans should at least give change a chance. It's not all about V10s and V12s anymore, even V8s. Yet people are soooo butthurt over it that all they do is complain and complain and complain? Give me a bloody break.

[noiceinmydrink]

They should make the engines louder if only to drown out the sounds of people constantly moaning and crying about how much they hate F1 now.

[AdrianSutil]

1.6 V6 Turbo > 3.0 V8

You can hear the turbo whine and spool away, the PA system barking excitedly, tyre's squeal under locking and crisp-clear radio chatter. With the old V8's all you got was hornets fighting in a jam jar. reminded me of the local kids revving their 50cc moped's at the lights thinking they're Barry Sheene...

If you don't like the new sound of F1, then F1 doesn't want your comment or support...

[roblo97]

If the V6 engine sounded more like the Red Bull X2014 Standard, there would be no such argument due to the turbo engine producing plenty of torque and a frenetic sound like the V8's at 16,000RPM.

[SgtPepper]

Here are some examples of the sorts of reactions I'm referring to;

The sport is. I longer the same period atmosphere is not the same it no longer makes you want to watch the race. It's not the same anymore F1 is ruined.

I have been a hardcore supporter of F1 for a very long time and have seen many chances, but this is the first time I am considering not bothering anymore. The missus walked into the room and for the first time ever I was embarrassed trying to explain why the cars are so quiet and why they look so weird. At least I can let Sky Sports go and save a few bob, every cloud has a silver lining.

It sounds like one of those lawn mower races you get in the country on a weekend.............Not good.

Too quiet and no matter what anyone says, the noise has always been the highlight of watching F1 trackside. Next year I'll be saving my hard earned and staying home from the Melbourne/Oz GP for the first time in 10 years. That means I won't be buying an airfare, hotel room etc and same goes for the 10 chaps I go every year with. Economic impact to city's and circuits is going to be astronomical in the big scheme of things.

About half the comments on Brundle's article are like this, just seems ridiculous to me

[go_Rubens]

If the V6 engine sounded more like the Red Bull X2014 Standard, there would be no such argument due to the turbo engine producing plenty of torque and a frenetic sound like the V8's at 16,000RPM.

Except it doesn't.

You see, louder is not always better. When the cars were louder, maybe the guys on PA systems were getting paid for a useless job if no one could hear you half the time? Plus, the quieter sound is better in my mind. It's deeper, more throaty. It actually gives me and others a sense of surrounding at the track. A car locking up like Hulk did going into T6 at Melbourne sounded like someone screaming compared to the V8s where you could rarely hear a thing unless it was T11 at Interlagos. You can hear the ERS systems kicking in. You can actually hear the PA systems in the stands now. It gives the viewer on TV a better sense of actually being there. Plus, it gives an advantage to the viewers in the stands and along the track because they can actually hear what the TV viewers can, but actually as loud as it is in real life. I say new era of engines roll on.

Rob, check the Aussie GP thread for your new avatar. And other stuff we have to determine there because of laziness on both our behalfs

[Turbogirl]

Okay, here are my two cents about this engine debate:

1 Cent: Of course the old turbos from the 80s sound better in comparison, but since when are we watching F1 solely for the engine noises?

2 Cents: Aren't we watching F1 because of the exciting on-track action instead of the engine noises?

I liked what I saw (and heard) in Melbourne. It was exciting until the final minute. What good is the debate about V10 sounding better than V8 sounding better than the actual turbos, although everyone agrees that the 80s turbos were the best after all?

This season is going to be thrilling again after all these years. We had crashes, engine failures, Bottas displaying his talent and the Williams' competitiveness. Vettel retired and didn't dominate from start to finish. And people complain about the sound of the engines?

Sometimes I get the feeling, they WANT something to complain about. To be honest: I have nothing to complain about at all and I LOVE the sound of the 80s turbos more than anything else. But first of all, I wanted a great and exciting race! What did I get? A great and exciting race. I'm happy with the way it is. More of that, please!

[CoopsII]

I dont care about the noise of the engines.