Grand Prix Rejects

Captain Hammer wrote:Damn, you beat me to it.

Mind you, I got the Wikipedia edits.

OK, question. How do you rate this Senna-at-Campos thing? I don't think Senna is too good, I believe the car will be awful (if they do indeed make the grid, which I probably won't be too sure of until Winter testing), and the expectations will be huge! Personally, I predict a great amount of fail.

CarlosFerreira wrote:

Captain Hammer wrote:Damn, you beat me to it.

Mind you, I got the Wikipedia edits.

OK, question. How do you rate this Senna-at-Campos thing? I don't think Senna is too good, I believe the car will be awful (if they do indeed make the grid, which I probably won't be too sure of until Winter testing), and the expectations will be huge! Personally, I predict a great amount of fail.

Tragically, I think that you could well be right. The reduction in winter testing will mean that he'll still be getting used to an F1 car for the first few races, and although he has shown some flashes of potential whilst testing for Oreca in the P1 prototypes, he also crashed a few times. With the inevitable media attention and expectation for success that comes with bearing the name of Senna, the potential for youthful exuberance and a desire to prove himself, I'll be surprised if he doesn't stuff it in the barriers a few times in the opening races. And that's before the competitiveness (or, more likely, lack of) of the car comes into it.
I hope that he's quite strong mentally, because he'll probably be in for a rough ride, if the experience of the other rookies this season is anything to go by.

Insane suggestion: if Raikkonen doesn't sign to McLaren, how about Buemi? He's a little raw and unpolished, but no-one except Ferrari could hammer Buemi into shape faster. Mercedes are said to be pushing for a German driver, but McLaren are apparently eyeing off BMW's engine facilities to develop in-house. If they don't need Mercedes, there's no imperative to sign a German driver. Buemi has shown himself to be quick, especially of late. He could be one of the un-named drivers McLaren mentioned speaking with.

And it would be good - Formula One doesn't need Raikkonen. At least not nearly as much as Raikkonen would like to think.

CarlosFerreira wrote:OK, question. How do you rate this Senna-at-Campos thing? I don't think Senna is too good, I believe the car will be awful (if they do indeed make the grid, which I probably won't be too sure of until Winter testing), and the expectations will be huge! Personally, I predict a great amount of fail.

I don't know; the reporting tends to blur the boundaries a little. Joe Saward reported that Campos were in trouble because they made a deal with the Murcia government and got input from regional corporations. However, other sources report this as part of Campos' plan: he's going to station himself in Murcia and build a brand-new testing facility, complete with three-kilometre straight for straight-line testing. A lot really depends on what Dallara are doing; they've been reported as having missed their deadline recently, but if it were true and a serious issue, Campos wouldn't have signed Senna. Senna could pretty much have chosen any team he wanted.

Senna's biggest strength is that the Le Mans regulations see drivers have to balance different fuel loads and tyre wear just as the 2010 regulations will dictate. The best I think he can hope for is to be the best of the newcomers: Campos, Lotus, Manor, USF1, Toro Rosso (technically a new team as they'll be devloping their own chassis for next season) and whoever forgets to develop a car, like McLaren and Ferrari did going into 2009. His biggest weakness is that people are going to expect too much of him. A lot of the reactions suggest people think he'll take off where his uncle left off, which simply isn't going to happen. That said, Senna has stated that he just wants to get into Formula One. He may not be expecting much Campos, and considers it an audition. It may be a smart approach to take.

Captain Hammer wrote:Insane suggestion: if Raikkonen doesn't sign to McLaren, how about Buemi? He's a little raw and unpolished, but no-one except Ferrari could hammer Buemi into shape faster. Mercedes are said to be pushing for a German driver, but McLaren are apparently eyeing off BMW's engine facilities to develop in-house. If they don't need Mercedes, there's no imperative to sign a German driver. Buemi has shown himself to be quick, especially of late. He could be one of the un-named drivers McLaren mentioned speaking with.

McLaren, especially Ron Dennins during the launch of the new road car, have been talking tough. Maybe even a bit too tough for comfort, to be honest; but I think the rumours are a bit of pie in the sky. McLaren have been with Mercedes-Benz getting on to a decade and a half, and the partnership is stable and intricate. Mercedes own half the outfit (although I supposed Dennis and his long-term supporters have blocking rights in top management decisions). Hamilton is a brilliant marketing asset (not to mention possibly the best driver on the grid today) that Mercedes wouldn't like to lose. Nah, I think the whole issue is rubbish, to be honest.

Captain Hammer wrote:Insane suggestion: if Raikkonen doesn't sign to McLaren, how about Buemi? He's a little raw and unpolished, but no-one except Ferrari could hammer Buemi into shape faster. Mercedes are said to be pushing for a German driver, but McLaren are apparently eyeing off BMW's engine facilities to develop in-house. If they don't need Mercedes, there's no imperative to sign a German driver. Buemi has shown himself to be quick, especially of late. He could be one of the un-named drivers McLaren mentioned speaking with.

An interesting idea that, for all his mistakes this year, Buemi has shown that he can be very fast and his displaying a bit of maturity and restraint in Brazil and Abu Dhabi (so far ) is coming at the right time of the year.
The issue I see with Kimi rejoining McLaren is that it seems very much to be Hamilton's team now, he is now and has been the defined # 1 there for the last two years. I wonder what will happen if a determined, focused and fired up Kimi came into the team with a don't give a shite attitude and something to prove to his ex employers at Maranello? I could see a meltdown of 2007 proportions happening there.

BTW, long time lurker, first time poster and another Aussie so g'day

The Monza Gorilla wrote:I wonder what will happen if a determined, focused and fired up Kimi came into the team with a don't give a shite attitude and something to prove to his ex employers at Maranello?

Not giving a shite perfectly describes Kimi's attitude. He says he wants to drive for McLaren, but doesn't care if it doesn't happen. He wants a championship-winning car, but at the same time, he wants a generous pay packet.

It's time for him to be left out in the cold.

Captain Hammer wrote:

The Monza Gorilla wrote:I wonder what will happen if a determined, focused and fired up Kimi came into the team with a don't give a shite attitude and something to prove to his ex employers at Maranello?

Not giving a shite perfectly describes Kimi's attitude. He says he wants to drive for McLaren, but doesn't care if it doesn't happen. He wants a championship-winning car, but at the same time, he wants a generous pay packet.

It's time for him to be left out in the cold.

You may indeed be right there. Much as I think Raikkonen is brilliant, talented and a boon for F1, racing did survive after Mika left. More importantly, it survived after Schumacher left. I'd like to see Kimi racing at the sharp end, but he need to make some decisions on what he really cares about.

Captain Hammer wrote:

The Monza Gorilla wrote:I wonder what will happen if a determined, focused and fired up Kimi came into the team with a don't give a shite attitude and something to prove to his ex employers at Maranello?

Not giving a shite perfectly describes Kimi's attitude. He says he wants to drive for McLaren, but doesn't care if it doesn't happen. He wants a championship-winning car, but at the same time, he wants a generous pay packet.

It's time for him to be left out in the cold.

After what he's done in the Ferrari this year? Certainly not in my view. Agreed, he might be pissing around with McLaren a bit too much, but the man has tremendous speed, and is certainly one of the best drivers in the world right now.

As for a Hamilton-Raikkonen lineup, I don't think it will matter much. Kimi has his devil-may-care attitude, while Hamilton seems focused on marketing himself as a 'good guy', and I think he knows that if there's any whinging from McLaren, people'll put it more down to him than Raikkonen.

There's been a lot of noise about Glock going to Renault, but I think that would be a disasterous move for him. Renault built an atrocious car this year (8th in the championship), even with Fernando "half a second" Alonso developing it, and I don't see them changing it around quickly. Secondly, they're still adjusting after having the 2 big men, Briatore and Symonds, thrown out of the team, and it all seems a bit directionless right now under Bob Bell. Thirdly, he's in a team which has traditionally strongly favoured one driver throughout a season (maybe less of a factor now that Briatore has gone), and Glock will have to play second-fiddle to the Renault-backed Kubica, whereas he'd definitely be number 1 at Toyota if Kobayashi was alongside him (maybe he's scared of Kamui). Let's not forget that he's not the youngest colt in the paddock, and he should be at least in a car that can deliver podiums and frequent points at this stage of his career, which Toyota are more likely to provide than Renault, who you'd think would be cutting back on their F1 operations a bit.

Heed my words, Timo. I'm saying this for your own good.

watka wrote:There's been a lot of noise about Glock going to Renault, but I think that would be a disasterous move for him. Renault built an atrocious car this year (8th in the championship), even with Fernando "half a second" Alonso developing it, and I don't see them changing it around quickly. Secondly, they're still adjusting after having the 2 big men, Briatore and Symonds, thrown out of the team, and it all seems a bit directionless right now under Bob Bell. Thirdly, he's in a team which has traditionally strongly favoured one driver throughout a season (maybe less of a factor now that Briatore has gone), and Glock will have to play second-fiddle to the Renault-backed Kubica, whereas he'd definitely be number 1 at Toyota if Kobayashi was alongside him (maybe he's scared of Kamui). Let's not forget that he's not the youngest colt in the paddock, and he should be at least in a car that can deliver podiums and frequent points at this stage of his career, which Toyota are more likely to provide than Renault, who you'd think would be cutting back on their F1 operations a bit.

Heed my words, Timo. I'm saying this for your own good.

Better than nothing. For Timo's level of driver, if he sat out a year he would be swiftly forgotten.

Williams has confirmed Barrichello and Hülkenberg.

Henrique wrote:Williams has confirmed Barrichello

No disrespect to him, but will he ever retire?

Phoenix wrote:No disrespect to him, but will he ever retire?

Going to a team that will surely race behind his previous team is probably a way to start that process.

Phoenix wrote:

Henrique wrote:Williams has confirmed Barrichello

No disrespect to him, but will he ever retire?

He was a title contender up to the second-to-last race this year, so he may as well keep going while he still can.

Phoenix wrote:No disrespect to him, but will he ever retire?

Nigel Mansell was 39 years old when he became World Champion. Go Figure.

kostas22 wrote:

Phoenix wrote:No disrespect to him, but will he ever retire?

Nigel Mansell was 39 years old when he became World Champion. Go Figure.

12 years in to his career. 2010 = 18th season for Barrichello.

shinji wrote:

kostas22 wrote:

Phoenix wrote:No disrespect to him, but will he ever retire?

Nigel Mansell was 39 years old when he became World Champion. Go Figure.

12 years in to his career. 2010 = 18th season for Barrichello.

My point still stands. We will probably see the likes of Hamilton, Vettel, Alonso beat Barrichello some day in terms of amount of races.

kostas22 wrote:
My point still stands. We will probably see the likes of Hamilton, Vettel, Alonso beat Barrichello some day in terms of amount of races.

Hood point. Barrichello started very early for the time, he was around 19 or 20. Maybe some drivers really are in the pipeline to catch him - how about Button?

Barrichello only needs to last two more years and he'll enter the rather exclusive club of drivers who have driven in three decades.
Consisting solely of Patrese at the moment if my memory serves me correctly

DonTirri wrote:Barrichello only needs to last two more years and he'll enter the rather exclusive club of drivers who have driven in three decades.
Consisting solely of Patrese at the moment if my memory serves me correctly

Lammers falls into that category as well I think. Debut in 1979, raced in the 80s, and a sole GP in 1991? Can't quite remember...

kostas22 wrote:

DonTirri wrote:Barrichello only needs to last two more years and he'll enter the rather exclusive club of drivers who have driven in three decades.
Consisting solely of Patrese at the moment if my memory serves me correctly

Lammers falls into that category as well I think. Debut in 1979, raced in the 80s, and a sole GP in 1991? Can't quite remember...

Yep, 79-82, then 92 for March. Also Graham Hill, Mario Andretti, Jean Alesi, Johnny Herbert and probably others who I can't think of.

If he isn't still racing at his 50s like Fagioli, he won't impress me

shinji wrote:

kostas22 wrote:

DonTirri wrote:Barrichello only needs to last two more years and he'll enter the rather exclusive club of drivers who have driven in three decades.
Consisting solely of Patrese at the moment if my memory serves me correctly

Lammers falls into that category as well I think. Debut in 1979, raced in the 80s, and a sole GP in 1991? Can't quite remember...

Yep, 79-82, then 92 for March. Also Graham Hill, Mario Andretti, Jean Alesi, Johnny Herbert and probably others who I can't think of.

Of course, next year Rubens will have raced in three decades... but he won't yet have raced for three decades till 2012.

Too bad Rubens and Alguersuari are not team-mates. Jaime was 2 years old when Rubens debuted. (turned three 9 days later)

fjackdaw wrote:

kostas22 wrote:

DonTirri wrote:Barrichello only needs to last two more years and he'll enter the rather exclusive club of drivers who have driven in three decades.
Consisting solely of Patrese at the moment if my memory serves me correctly

Lammers falls into that category as well I think. Debut in 1979, raced in the 80s, and a sole GP in 1991? Can't quite remember...

Of course, next year Rubens will have raced in three decades... but he won't yet have raced for three decades till 2012.

No, wait, bad maths... he'll have raced for two decades in 2012. So yeah, he will already have joined the other three-decade club when he starts his next race, he won't need to wait a couple more years.

Bleu wrote:Too bad Rubens and Alguersuari are not team-mates. Jaime was 2 years old when Rubens debuted. (turned three 9 days later)

Oh yeah?! Well I turned three 8 days later. Alguersuari is such a noob.

In light of Toyota's expected withdrawal:

Brawn GP / Mercedes
#1 - Jenson Button
#2 - Nico Rosberg

Red Bull Racing / Renault
#3 - Sebastian Vettel
#4 - Mark Webber

McLaren / Mercedes
#5 - Lewis Hamilton
#6 - Timo Glock

Scuderia Ferrari
#7 - Felipe Massa
#8 - Fernando Alonso

Sauber Qadbak / Ferrari
#9 - Nick Heidfeld
#10 - Christian Klien

Williams / Cosworth
#11 - Nicolas Hulkenberg
#12 - Rubens Barrichello

Renault
#14 - Robert Kubica
#15 - Lucas di Grassi

Force India / Mercedes
#16 - Adrian Sutil
#17 - Vitantonio Liuzzi

Scuderia Toro Rosso / Ferrari
#18 - Brendon Hartley
#19 - Jaime Algueruari

Team USF1 / Cosworth
#20 - Pedro de la Rosa
#21 - Alexander Rossi

Campos / Cosworth
#22 - Bruno Senna
#23 - Vitaly Petrov

Manor / Cosworth
#24 - Anthony Davidson
#25 - Alvaro Parente

Lotus / Cosworth
#26 - Jarno Trulli
#27 - Kamui Kobayashi

Untitled Toyota Rescue Package / Toyota
#28 - Takuma Sato
#29 - Heikki Kovalainen

So after Toyota's announcement from today, we'll probably see the man from Pescara in a Proton / Lotus for next season. I can only hope that one of the established teams will be clever enough to sign Kamui Kobayashi. There are some unoccupied seats at Renault (not recommended for rookies), Brawn (they just haven't announced Rosberg yet), and McLaren. It would be fascinating to see him in a McLaren.

Still, it's sad that Toyota in the end did not give things enough time to grow, which is just about what would have happened now.

Force India's probably the best available drive now, most of the top seats we're just waiting for confirmation of the inevitable. A Kobayashi/Sutil partnership is still possible for Force India, that would set the pulses racing.

Captain Hammer wrote:
Scuderia Toro Rosso / Ferrari
#18 - Brendon Hartley
#19 - Jaime Algueruari

Do you not believe in Buemi?

shinji wrote:

Captain Hammer wrote:
Scuderia Toro Rosso / Ferrari
#18 - Brendon Hartley
#19 - Jaime Algueruari

Do you not believe in Buemi?

No.

As for the man from Pescara, here's to him next year being in... Pescara...

CarlosFerreira wrote:

shinji wrote:

Captain Hammer wrote:
Scuderia Toro Rosso / Ferrari
#18 - Brendon Hartley
#19 - Jaime Algueruari

Do you not believe in Buemi?

No.

Oh. What about Alguersuari? Or Hartley, it would be an injustice on Buemi if he got his seat.

shinji wrote:

CarlosFerreira wrote:

shinji wrote:
Do you not believe in Buemi?

No.

Oh. What about Alguersuari? Or Hartley, it would be an injustice on Buemi if he got his seat.

It's one of those things I can't really explain. Maybe it's simply a question of looks: do you know when you have a distaste for a driver even before he has turned a wheel? I can't force myself to believe in Buemi, and would put my money on Arguersuari every time, despite the assorted wrong pit shenanigans.

CarlosFerreira wrote:

shinji wrote:
Do you not believe in Buemi?

No.

It's one of those things I can't really explain. Maybe it's simply a question of looks: do you know when you have a distaste for a driver even before he has turned a wheel? I can't force myself to believe in Buemi, and would put my money on Arguersuari every time, despite the assorted wrong pit shenanigans.

For what it's worth, I DO believe in Buemi.

I BELIEVE

Warren Hughes wrote:

CarlosFerreira wrote:

shinji wrote:
Do you not believe in Buemi?

No.

It's one of those things I can't really explain. Maybe it's simply a question of looks: do you know when you have a distaste for a driver even before he has turned a wheel? I can't force myself to believe in Buemi, and would put my money on Arguersuari every time, despite the assorted wrong pit shenanigans.

For what it's worth, I DO believe in Buemi.

I BELIEVE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9oqY9BVM1s

If I was in charge of one of the new teams, I'd be falling over myself to get Kobayashi on side - if he performs well, it might just lure Toyota back to F1, but in a more McLaren-Mercedes style arrangement. Given the fact that Kobayashi has shown he's got at least some talent, it's not like it'll do any harm. As for a wise old hand to help get some consistent points in and develop Kamui's skills? I hear Takuma Sato is available...

At this rate their won't be any teams for the drivers to move to...

kostas22 wrote:At this rate their won't be any teams for the drivers to move to...

At this rate there will be no more F1!!!

My New Optimistic 2010 Prediction:
(Numbers are in the wrong order, can't be bothered fixing it)

Brawn Cosworth
1. Jenson Button
2. Nico Rosberg
3. Bruno Senna

Scuderia Ferrari Santander
4. Fernando Alonso
5. Felipe Massa
6. Robert Kubica

McLaren Renault
7. Lewis Hamilton
8. Nick Heidfeld
9. Adrian Sutil

Williams Cosworth
10. Rubens Barrichello
11. Nico Hulkenburg
12. Kamui Kobayashi

Qadbak Ferrari
14. Christian Klien
15. Timo Glock
16. Andy Soucek

Red Bull Renault
17. Sebastian Vettel
18. Mark Webber
19. Sebastien Buemi

Scuderia Toro Rosso Ferrari
20. Jamie Alguersuari
21. Neel Jani
22. Brendon Hartley

Force India Ferrari
23. Vitaly Petrov
24. Giancarlo Fisichella
25. Vitantonio Liuzzi

Toyota, Renault both leave F1. Mercedes HPE is closed thus ceasing engine supply. Renault's Viry engine departement continues however. None of the new teams make the grid. To help secure a full grid, FIA regulations are changed to mandate 3 cars per team, seeing the return of the pay driver in F1.
However the field drops to 21 cars not long into the season, when Qadbak folds and its owners are pursued by authorities for fraud.
Hankook is the new official tyre supplier after Pirelli, Michelin, Dunlop, Yokohama, Goodyear, Continental, Firestone, Falken, Avon, Kumho, Vredestein and Toyo all turn down contract offers by the FIA.

kostas22 wrote:Hankook is the new official tyre supplier after Pirelli, Michelin, Dunlop, Yokohama, Goodyear, Continental, Firestone, Falken, Avon, Kumho, Vredestein and Toyo all turn down contract offers by the FIA.

WOn't work. Hankook has already declared to have no interest in F1 as of yet.