Grand Prix Rejects

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:

AdrianSutil wrote:Who the bathplug do Red Bull think they are?! Just because you've won titles doesn't mean you can talk trash about the backmarkers!!

Been watching the post-race interviews on BBC red button, and poor old Karthikeyen turned around to DC and Jake Humphrey saying "What can I do? I try to get out of the way but when other drivers try to force you off the road it's not acceptable. I'm trying to drive my own race. I don't want to get in the way of the faster guys but I'm here doing my own job."

Fair play to him, an honest and very polite answer.

But then Christian Horner comes along a few minutes later and slags him off for taking Vettel out of contention. He says, "It looks like he pulled back onto the racing line too early and caused an avoidable accident. He's running around 7 seconds off the pace so he should be getting out of the way early enough. He hasn't got a chance of points but we have. He has to understand that."

now I'm sorry Mr Horner, but you have NO RIGHT to say that about a team struggling to qualify, let alone be competitive. HRT are trying their best to race against anyone ahead of them, so you can't expect them to just drive off the road so your precious double Champion can SCRAPE a 4th!!

My estimation of Vettel and especially Horner has dropped massively. Those comments, which hopefully other people have heard, is downright disrespectful. Just proves ego is high within Red Bull

The thing is Karthikeyan didn't try to get out of the way. He made a mistake and Vettel breezed past. I support HRT as much as the next poster, but he really could've and should've backed out. Don't forget that Grosjean had similar contact in Melbourne which put him out, and I recall him getting some stick for that.

To be fair to Karthikeyan, I guess that he was simply caught out slightly by the difference in closing speed between himself and Vettel, particularly since Karthikeyan had already slowed to let one driver through and was probably not expecting Vettel to catch him where he did. And strictly speaking, the rules do not oblige a backmarker to leave the racing line - it may be considered polite, but all a backmarker is obliged to do is to let a driver through. Anyway, for what my opinion is worth, it was more a case of a slight misjudgement of their respective lines through one of the fastest corners on the track when Karthikeyan would have had relatively little time to see and react to Vettel.

jackanderton wrote:Alonso would never have risked a collision with Perez either as he himself might not be in that position often this season. Perez was 1.5s faster per lap than Alonso, was 6 tenths behind him after reducing a 7 second deficit to Alonso in 6 laps. Without the mistake Perez would've been past and Sauber would be tasting real glory instead of the glory of the faster loser.

I guess that Sauber really were torn over what to do - on the one hand, a victory for Sauber and the additional points for the victory would have given them 3rd in the WCC ahead of Ferrari and put Perez 2nd in the WDC just a point behind Hamilton. That would have given them and Perez a major blaze of publicity and perhaps helped lure a sponsor or two in (there might be a sponsor wanting to become associated with an up and coming driver), which would be great for the long term finances of the team.
On the other hand, though, imagine if Perez had tried to pass Alonso and made a mistake - entirely possible given the track was still damp and quite slippery off the racing line. Perez was on course to score in that one race more points than he'd scored throughout the whole of last year, and about 40% of what Sauber's total points haul last year was - given how tight the battle between the teams is in the midfield, that could be crucial come the end of the season. A single mistake from Perez could have cost the team very dearly come the end of the season - imagine if they lost out to, say, Force India by a couple of points as a result of that.

Added to that, I have seen one journalist point out something else about that radio message from the pit wall to Perez. The point is, that radio message would have been a delayed transmission and was probably sent to Perez at least one lap before we heard that message - yet Perez was still pushing as hard as ever to catch Alonso, suggesting that he might well have been ignoring the team and pressing on regardless. In the circumstances, whilst there might have been a strong incentive for the team to want Perez to push on, I can understand why exactly they told Perez to take it easy and not to throw away his position, because they cannot afford to throw away what was their best result and first podium in nine years as an independent team.

All that is true, but what is also true is that Perez was a few tenths behind and closing at 1.5s a lap, with 5 laps left.

I'm resigned to it being down to driver error but it infuriates me when the win was there for the taking and Alonso again benefits.

mario wrote:Speaking of Hamilton and Button, did anybody find it interesting that Button appeared to be given the first choice for tyres during that race even though Hamilton had track position? Normally McLaren give the leading driver first choice on tyre and strategy decisions, but interesting it was Button who was switched from intermediates to full wets first, and similarly Button switched from wet to dry tyres first (a decision which left Hamilton on track with worn inters at a time when slicks were four or five second a lap faster).

I was surprised at this, as well. It might have been Hamilton's decision - usually Button is better and quicker in this kind of decisions from the two. I wonder where Hamilton was at the track when everyone found out thanks to Ricciardo that slicks are needed - maybe Button was just simply closer to the pits, and the two weren't really close to each other at that time anyway, so there was no danger of extra waiting in the pits.

(For conspirancy theorists, it is also possible that McLaren have already chosen Button as Nr. 1 in the background - hey, they even messed up Hamilton's pit stop.)

AdrianSutil wrote:Backed out? How does he back out? Are you trying to say you wanted him to physically stop the car? He'd just recovered from running wide and was trying to get back up to speed, you can't expect him to just crawl along until it's clear again, he's got his own race to run.

Don't put words in my mouth. By 'back out', I meant lift off the throttle. And only slightly at that - Karthikeyan was only barely alongisde Vettel and there was nobody directly behind Vettel at the time. It wouldn't have taken very much to avoid the whole incident entirely.

mario wrote:To be fair to Karthikeyan, I guess that he was simply caught out slightly by the difference in closing speed between himself and Vettel, particularly since Karthikeyan had already slowed to let one driver through and was probably not expecting Vettel to catch him where he did. And strictly speaking, the rules do not oblige a backmarker to leave the racing line - it may be considered polite, but all a backmarker is obliged to do is to let a driver through. Anyway, for what my opinion is worth, it was more a case of a slight misjudgement of their respective lines through one of the fastest corners on the track when Karthikeyan would have had relatively little time to see and react to Vettel.

Fair enough. I still think Karthikeyan could've done more to avoid it, but that's only my opinion.

still amazed at how fast checo caught fernando up blistering! Going to be worth keeping tabs on checo and kamui this season more closely if they manage to keep development up

QuickYoda41 wrote:

mario wrote:Speaking of Hamilton and Button, did anybody find it interesting that Button appeared to be given the first choice for tyres during that race even though Hamilton had track position? Normally McLaren give the leading driver first choice on tyre and strategy decisions, but interesting it was Button who was switched from intermediates to full wets first, and similarly Button switched from wet to dry tyres first (a decision which left Hamilton on track with worn inters at a time when slicks were four or five second a lap faster).

I was surprised at this, as well. It might have been Hamilton's decision - usually Button is better and quicker in this kind of decisions from the two. I wonder where Hamilton was at the track when everyone found out thanks to Ricciardo that slicks are needed - maybe Button was just simply closer to the pits, and the two weren't really close to each other at that time anyway, so there was no danger of extra waiting in the pits.

(For conspirancy theorists, it is also possible that McLaren have already chosen Button as Nr. 1 in the background - hey, they even messed up Hamilton's pit stop.)

To be honest, I think that it is more down to the fact that, on that particular day, the pit crews and strategists on Hamilton's side of the garage were too slow to react and unusually incompetent by McLaren's normal standards. The pit crews in Hamilton's stops didn't do the best of jobs, and given how much time his rivals were gaining when switching to slicks, his pit crew should have been frantically calling him in a.s.a.p. - and I imagine that Hamilton would have called for slicks immediately if told how much faster his rivals were going at the time.

After all, Ricciardo pitted on lap 37, set a middle sector about four seconds faster than anybody else on his outlap and by lap 39 he was nearly eight seconds a lap faster than before his pit stop (he had set a 1m57.2 on lap 36 and a 1m49.8 on lap 39) - lap 39 was also the same lap on which Button pitted, as did Webber. Now, although Webber was about 20 seconds behind Hamilton at the time, given that Ricciardo was going so much faster than anybody else on track, surely they should have pulled Hamilton in on lap 40 to cover off Webber?
And overall it would have also made more sense to pit Hamilton first since Hamilton was at risk of falling behind both Red Bull drivers, which would have put Red Bull ahead in both the WDC and WCC - the latter being especially important because of the way FOM divides up its prize money. It just seems worrying strangely for a team who should know how much poor strategy calls can cost a team - they saw how Red Bull nearly threw things away in 2010 through mismanaging things, and McLaren's performance advantage in the races this year doesn't look as large as first thought.

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:Fair enough. I still think Karthikeyan could've done more to avoid it, but that's only my opinion.

I guess ultimately that is also how the stewards saw it (personally I'd see it as more of a racing incident given that there are some slight mitigating factors for Karthikeyan) - but to each their own, and I respect that.

mario wrote:

QuickYoda41 wrote:

mario wrote:Speaking of Hamilton and Button, did anybody find it interesting that Button appeared to be given the first choice for tyres during that race even though Hamilton had track position? Normally McLaren give the leading driver first choice on tyre and strategy decisions, but interesting it was Button who was switched from intermediates to full wets first, and similarly Button switched from wet to dry tyres first (a decision which left Hamilton on track with worn inters at a time when slicks were four or five second a lap faster).

I was surprised at this, as well. It might have been Hamilton's decision - usually Button is better and quicker in this kind of decisions from the two. I wonder where Hamilton was at the track when everyone found out thanks to Ricciardo that slicks are needed - maybe Button was just simply closer to the pits, and the two weren't really close to each other at that time anyway, so there was no danger of extra waiting in the pits.

(For conspirancy theorists, it is also possible that McLaren have already chosen Button as Nr. 1 in the background - hey, they even messed up Hamilton's pit stop.)

To be honest, I think that it is more down to the fact that, on that particular day, the pit crews and strategists on Hamilton's side of the garage were too slow to react and unusually incompetent by McLaren's normal standards. The pit crews in Hamilton's stops didn't do the best of jobs, and given how much time his rivals were gaining when switching to slicks, his pit crew should have been frantically calling him in a.s.a.p. - and I imagine that Hamilton would have called for slicks immediately if told how much faster his rivals were going at the time.

After all, Ricciardo pitted on lap 37, set a middle sector about four seconds faster than anybody else on his outlap and by lap 39 he was nearly eight seconds a lap faster than before his pit stop (he had set a 1m57.2 on lap 36 and a 1m49.8 on lap 39) - lap 39 was also the same lap on which Button pitted, as did Webber. Now, although Webber was about 20 seconds behind Hamilton at the time, given that Ricciardo was going so much faster than anybody else on track, surely they should have pulled Hamilton in on lap 40 to cover off Webber?
And overall it would have also made more sense to pit Hamilton first since Hamilton was at risk of falling behind both Red Bull drivers, which would have put Red Bull ahead in both the WDC and WCC - the latter being especially important because of the way FOM divides up its prize money. It just seems worrying strangely for a team who should know how much poor strategy calls can cost a team - they saw how Red Bull nearly threw things away in 2010 through mismanaging things, and McLaren's performance advantage in the races this year doesn't look as large as first thought.

I got the feeling at the time that some people, like Perez and until a certain point Alonso, delayed the change to slicks because they were expecting more rain within 5 minutes. I think that was Hamilton's case. I cannot imagine McLaren hurting Hamilton chances to benefit Button specially after the latter was already lagging behind at that point. Besides, people at the front tend to be more conservative delaying tyre changes except in Button's case which is usually his own decision. Not the first time it happens. Nevertheless, I liked to see a conspiracy theory against Hamilton developing here on the Forum. It's a first I believe.


Now that we've had a few laughs about it, its time to cut it out.

DanielPT wrote:I got the feeling at the time that some people, like Perez and until a certain point Alonso, delayed the change to slicks because they were expecting more rain within 5 minutes. I think that was Hamilton's case. I cannot imagine McLaren hurting Hamilton chances to benefit Button specially after the latter was already lagging behind at that point. Besides, people at the front tend to be more conservative delaying tyre changes except in Button's case which is usually his own decision. Not the first time it happens. Nevertheless, I liked to see a conspiracy theory against Hamilton developing here on the Forum. It's a first I believe.


Now that we've had a few laughs about it, its time to cut it out.

As the old phrase goes, never ascribe to malice what can be explained by incompetence - and it looks more like McLaren were being excessively cautious in changing tyres on what was a rapidly drying track. McLaren have dithered over their tyre strategy before in the past, even when there is fairly clear evidence they they should switch tyres (Ricciardo was gaining several seconds per sector on his outlap), so it isn't as if there is a precedence for McLaren screwing things up. Perhaps Button was being used as a guinea pig so the team could tell if the track conditions were right for Hamilton to switch?
In retrospect, I guess the decision looks quite careless given that Red Bull had already switched and were gaining rapidly on the only driver McLaren had in the points - I guess that at the time McLaren thought they were doing the right thing by waiting and seeing what was happening elsewhere on track, but it very nearly backfired on them.

On another note, it looks like Red Bull have come some way to explaining the contradictory radio calls to Vettel in the closing laps - following his clash with Karthikeyan, the carcass of Vettel's rear tyre appears to have torn away the cooling duct due to Vettel trying to return to the pits as quickly as possible, in the process shredding the tyre. It probably didn't help that he was trying to chase Karthikeyan down to gesticulate at him either...
Anyway, according to Red Bull the net result was that the loss of cooling for the rear brake caused the temperature of the brake disk to rise uncontrollably due to thermal runaway, with the potential for the disk to fail altogether. That is why they were sending messages to Vettel for him to stop the car immediately, and telling him the car was unsafe - Vettel's radio, however, was malfunctioning, which was behind the confusion and part of the reason why he continued on regardless. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/98386

As far as Hamilton, good racer, has no idea on strategy. Never has.
Pretty sure I heard it said for malayasia that when the team asked him what to do regarding stops/tyres, he just asked them "what is everyone else doing?"
The guy is fast, but he's never going to call a good strategy himself I think. And the team have made a poor decision with regards to tyres for him before that went bad, so they probably won't do that again.
So it's always Button that gets the first call in changing conditions or any non planned stops, and if it works, Hamilton will follow, and if it doesn't, Hamilton gets the data and they know better. IE Button is given the go ahead to take the risks, he profits from that sometimes, and sometimes doesn't. Hamilton is mr safe with regards to strategies.

solarcold wrote:Conspiracy you say? There's a thing you haven't notice then.
It's not Sergio who's gonna replace Felipe.
It's...
...Narain Karthikeyan.

"Perez instead of Massa? I think this Indian will be more useful."


See? I am not the only one. Alonso thinks the same. I think the announcement will be made soon.

Shocker on the Germans' part! Jenson Button has car number 3 this season...

dinizintheoven wrote:Shocker on the Germans' part! Jenson Button has car number 3 this season...

I dont get this one either.

CoopsII wrote:

dinizintheoven wrote:Shocker on the Germans' part! Jenson Button has car number 3 this season...

I dont get this one either.

dinizintheoven's comment relates to the cartoon immediately in the post above his...

http://www.yallaf1.com/2012/04/01/exclu ... te-effect/

I told you!

solarcold wrote:http://www.yallaf1.com/2012/04/01/exclusive-karthikeyan-replaces-massa-at-ferrari-with-immediate-effect/

I told you!

I'm aware that it's April Fools Day. So it's going to take more than that to convince me.

DOSBoot wrote:

solarcold wrote:http://www.yallaf1.com/2012/04/01/exclusive-karthikeyan-replaces-massa-at-ferrari-with-immediate-effect/

I told you!

I'm aware that it's April Fools Day. So it's going to take more than that to convince me.

Well uh... okay, I have no ace in my sleeve.

And Vettel still won't let it drop. Calm the hell down mate

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/motorsport/formulaone/sebastian-vettel/9186383/Sebastian-Vettel-stands-by-his-outburst-towards-idiot-Narain-Karthikeyan.html

East Londoner wrote:And Vettel still won't let it drop. Calm the hell down mate

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/motorsport/formulaone/sebastian-vettel/9186383/Sebastian-Vettel-stands-by-his-outburst-towards-idiot-Narain-Karthikeyan.html

Well, he is right that people should not be ashamed of their emotions. He fails to mention that people should be ashamed of being immature brats when their past the adequate age for that, though.

I went on the internet the other day and I found this incident that the world feed missed

solarcold wrote:http://www.yallaf1.com/2012/04/01/exclusive-karthikeyan-replaces-massa-at-ferrari-with-immediate-effect/

I told you!

LOL...... Nice try.