Grand Prix Rejects

Hm, hard to say if the lack of performance it about the drivers, the engines or the car. We'll have to keep trying i suppose.

Alright, we just might make it into the race. I'll be happy so long as Des doesn't do an Ascari. I'll be absolutely thrilled if he manages to pull off a Castellotti or even a Villoresi (I'm talking about the real-life 1955 race, not taking out the competition before anyone asks! ).

This wrote:Hm, hard to say if the lack of performance it about the drivers, the engines or the car. We'll have to keep trying i suppose.

I too am concerned about this...

tommykl wrote:

dr-baker wrote:One driver down for BRUNEL, one driver to go.

Sad to say this, but I actually miscounted Hall's performance in prequalifying, and counted the chassis twice. She acctually prequalified 21st and didn't make the cut either. Lance Macklin takes her place and qualifying performance.

Samster wrote:WTF, how did we end up stuck in pre-qualifying? We were sixth in both teams and constructors last season, how are Musso and Uria at least not already locked into main qualifying when 20 cars were?

I believe you missed the part where the prequalifying roster is based on drivers, not teams. Quite simply because the amount of drivers in the session depends on the grid size, and because some teams don't enter the same amount of cars every time, it's completely impractical to do it based on entrants.

Yes I always assumed it was based on entrants and don't remember seeing anything saying otherwise but its my fault for missing it if you put it in writing on this thread.

However I think basing it on drivers is inherently flawed as it renders hiring a rookie a massive risk plus screws anyone that got unlucky with the driver RNGs as my team were. I would suggest basing it on individual entries (for example Musso and Uria's entries would inherit the points that Rubirosa and Bracco/Magiloli scored last season) with whom inheriting whose points being up to the owner of the team of course with any extra cars a team adds over the winter or during the season having to start from scratch. Essentially this would be similar to the owners points system that NASCAR uses. This way teams aren't screwed if they are forced to make a driver change due to injury for instance. I understand its too late to make a change for this season but I'd like to propose you consider this system instead for future seasons.

Samster wrote:

tommykl wrote:

dr-baker wrote:One driver down for BRUNEL, one driver to go.

Sad to say this, but I actually miscounted Hall's performance in prequalifying, and counted the chassis twice. She acctually prequalified 21st and didn't make the cut either. Lance Macklin takes her place and qualifying performance.

Samster wrote:WTF, how did we end up stuck in pre-qualifying? We were sixth in both teams and constructors last season, how are Musso and Uria at least not already locked into main qualifying when 20 cars were?

I believe you missed the part where the prequalifying roster is based on drivers, not teams. Quite simply because the amount of drivers in the session depends on the grid size, and because some teams don't enter the same amount of cars every time, it's completely impractical to do it based on entrants.

Yes I always assumed it was based on entrants and don't remember seeing anything saying otherwise but its my fault for missing it if you put it in writing on this thread.

However I think basing it on drivers is inherently flawed as it renders hiring a rookie a massive risk plus screws anyone that got unlucky with the driver RNGs as my team were. I would suggest basing it on individual entries (for example Musso and Uria's entries would inherit the points that Rubirosa and Bracco/Magiloli scored last season) with whom inheriting whose points being up to the owner of the team of course with any extra cars a team adds over the winter or during the season having to start from scratch. Essentially this would be similar to the owners points system that NASCAR uses. This way teams aren't screwed if they are forced to make a driver change due to injury for instance. I understand its too late to make a change for this season but I'd like to propose you consider this system instead for future seasons.

The thing is, instead of being reset every half season, it's reset every two races and depends on which drivers are actually present. And in France, for example, where there should be less competition in prequalifying (after all, twelve more drivers are exempt), if your drivers do better, there shouldn't be a problem.

As for changing the system, I completely understand that basing it on drivers is inherently flawed, but I haven't found a good way to implement it on entries. I'll think about it, though, that's for sure.

Well if last season's points are still applied to the next Grand Prix then I'd like to offer our A-003 entry to Luigi Villoresi for the next race. That way we get one car locked in the race at least.

tommykl wrote:

dr-baker wrote:One driver down for BRUNEL, one driver to go.

Sad to say this, but I actually miscounted Hall's performance in prequalifying, and counted the chassis twice. She acctually prequalified 21st and didn't make the cut either. Lance Macklin takes her place and qualifying performance.

Damn and blast it. But having said that, I was expecting Pat Moss and the Bentley to be a faster combination than Anne Hall in the OSCA...

Qualifying results
1. Tony Bettenhausen (Aston Martin-Jaguar) - 1:41.62
2. B. Bira (Aston Martin-Jaguar) - 1:42.62
3. Tony Gaze (Alfa Romeo) - 1:42.88
4. Peter Whitehead (Bentley-O.S.C.A.) - 1:42.95
5. Dries van der Lof (Aston Martin-Jaguar) - 1:42.97
6. Desmond Titterington (Lancia) - 1:42.98
7. Giuseppe Farina (Alfa Romeo) - 1:43.33
8. Consalvo Sanesi (Gordini) - 1:43.37
9. Stirling Moss (Bentley-O.S.C.A.) - 1:43.71
10. Jack Brabham (Alfa Romeo) - 1:43.83
11. Paco Godia (Gordini) - 1:43.87
12. Maurice Trintignant (Aston Martin-Jaguar) - 1:44.11
13. Porfirio Rubirosa (Gordini) - 1:44.15
14. Robert Manzon (Gordini) - 1:44.20
15. Hernando da Silva Ramos (Mercedes-Bentley) - 1:44.30
16. José Froilan Gonzalez (O.S.C.A.-Bentley) - 1:44.31
17. Lance Macklin (Bentley-Ferrari) - 1:44.70
18. Maria Teresa de Filippis (O.S.C.A.) - 1:44.77
19. Jacques Swaters (O.S.C.A.-Bentley) - 1:44.99
20. Alberto Ascari (Phoenix-O.S.C.A.) - 1:45.12
21. Bib Stillwell (O.S.C.A.-Vanwall) - 1:45.32
22. Stan Jones (Alfa Romeo-Balkan Lion) - 1:45.38
23. Harry Schell (Bentley) - 1:45.42
24. Dorino Serafini (Alfa Romeo) - 1:45.84
25. Toulo de Graffenried (Alfa Romeo) - 1:45.96
26. David Hampshire (Bentley) - 1:46.02
27. Dennis Poore (Vanwall) - 1:46.18
28. André Pilette (Cooper-Jaguar) - 1:47.05

The main Alfa drivers squander their opportunity with mistake-ridden laps while JAMR lock out the top two spots with Tony Gaze third. Gordini disappoint while Desmond Titterington continues to impress, setting the sixth fastest time of the session! No major disappointments apart from both remaining Renzos failing to qualify. Lance Macklin will start the race for Reatherson, one of the team's best qualifying performances in the championship.

And here is race performance.

Ascari 45
Gaze 38
Swaters 31
van der Lof 26
Titterington 25
Godia 25
de Filippis 13
Gonzalez 11
Bira 5
Farina 5
Ramos 4
Bettenhausen 0
Brabham 0
Macklin 0
Sanesi -2
Rubirosa -19
Manzon -25
Moss -27
Trintignant -36
Whitehead -70

There will be a maximum of 9 finishers. The retirements will feature one single engine failure and two accidents, one being Category 1, the other Category 5.

6th! This looks more promising than Rouen for us!

So after displacing Anne Hall from getting through pre-qualifying, Lance Maklin goes on to qualify and start the race? Oh, what might have been if it had been Ms Hall!

I think i'll go hide in a cave somewhere to avoid an angry mob of privateers killing me.
To be fair, Monaco has a very low amount of entrants, and those who made it are defenitely strong, so i'm not going to worry... yet.
In France, Johnny Claes will drive the car, his experience is much needed right now.

May 8th 1955, Monaco Grand Prix

Gaze got the best start and briefly led, but ran wide at the Gasworks and was passed by Bira, who led the first lap from Gaze, Bettenhausen, van der Lof, Whitehead and Titterington. Sanesi and Farina then passed the Ulsterman, who dropped to eighth, while Ramos had made an impressive start and was eleventh. Gaze retook the lead on lap 3, leading his first career lap in a Grand Prix. Bira passed him on the very next lap, only to lose the lead once more on lap 5! Two laps later, the race saw its first retirement when Manzon retired with a gearbox failure, having struggled with it for a few laps. He stopped once he'd dropped to last. On that same lap, Bettenhausen passed Bira for second place.

On lap 9, Bettenhausen took the lead from Gaze, but this only lasted one lap, as Gaze took the lead once more on lap 10! But no one noticed, as that same lap, for fifth place, Moss attempted to overtake Farina at the chicane. The Italian had other ideas and violently chopped in front of Moss, putting both into the straw bales. Moss was not happy, to say the least... But it wasn't over. Gonzalez, in 15th position, slowed down to avoid any debris, but Macklin, right behind him, didn't notice and clipped the back of the Argentine's car, sending himself hard into the wall. He exited the car unhurt, thankfully.

On lap 11, Dries van der Lof passed both Bira and Bettenhausen to take second place. But the attention was again taken by an accident, when Jack Brabham attempted to pass Whitehead for sixth place, but braked way too late at Tabac, tried the inside line, clipped Whitehead's front tyre and was sent into the wall. The Alfa was also badly damaged, but Brabham was unhurt. This left 15 cars in the race. On lap 17, this was rather controversially reduced to 13. Bettenhausen cleanly passed van der Lof for second place then made a half-baked move for the lead at the Station Hairpin. He was too far back, but tapped Gaze who span around and stalled. Race over, Bettenhausen was leading, and all three Alfas were out in accidents. Then, Swaters picked the wrong side of Gaze's car and ran into it, retiring as well.

On lap 18, van der Lof took the lead again, with Bira following him into second. The race remained static for a few laps, then on lap 21, for the second time in two years, someone flew into the harbour. After Farina in 1954, it was Paco Godia who lost control of his Gordini, was sent into the straw bales and launched into the water. Miraculously, like Farina, he swam to shore with only a few cuts and bruises. This left van der Lof in the lead from Bira and Bettenhausen, who promptly lost third place to the seriously impressive Desmond Titterington! Bettenhausen regained his spot on lap 27, only to lose it on the next lap! Then, with 12 drivers remaining, the race calmed down for a while. On lap 37, Sanesi passed Bettenhausen and took fourth place behind van der Lof, Bira and Titterington.

Then, on lap 48, Titterington heartbreakingly retired with a fuel pump failure. However, he has showed a whole lot of promise and is undoubtedly a threat for the future. Gonzalez retired on lap 51 with a transmission failure, reducing the field to 10 drivers. Sanesi, Rubirosa and Bettenhausen fought over third at this point, with the American mostly winning at first, before Sanesi led the fight and ran away with it, while Ascari caught up and promptly passed Ramos, Rubirosa and Bettenhausen to take fourth place. Ramos and Rubirosa were also passed by Maria Teresa de Filippis, taking sixth, then fifth when she passed Bettenhausen. This battle didn't stop, though, as Ramos passed Bettenhausen and de Filippis, who then repassed him, as well as Rubirosa! This battle was so intense that overtaking happened each lap.

On lap 83, Ascari had caught Sanesi and took third place. Ramos, meanwhile, was falling back and was passed by Trintignant for eighth place, then Peter Whitehead for ninth, leaving the Brazilian in last place! But the race was not over yet. On lap 88, the Aston Martin-Jaguars of Bira and Bettenhausen, running second and fifth, stopped into the pits with a broken gearbox and failed clutch respectively, leaving only eight cars running. Sanesi passed Ascari that lap to take what was now second place. De Filippis was fourth, while Rubirosa, Trintignant and Ramos were fighting hard over fifth place. On lap 93, Peter Whitehead had an oil leak out of last place, ending a miserable race.

A bit further ahead, Rubirosa and Trintignant were making their cars as wide as the Monégasque tarmac, and the order did not change. Dries van der Lof easily won the race by a monstrous four-lap gap over Consalvo Sanesi, five laps over Alberto Ascari and eight laps over Maria Teresa de Filippis, who scored her best Grand Prix result.

1. Dries van der Lof (Aston Martin-Jaguar) 2:58:05.00
2. Consalvo Sanesi (Gordini) +4 laps
3. Alberto Ascari (Phoenix-O.S.C.A.) +5 laps
4. Maria Teresa de Filippis (O.S.C.A.) +8 laps
5. Porfirio Rubirosa (Gordini) +9 laps
6. Maurice Trintignant (Aston Martin-Jaguar) +9 laps
7. Hernando da Silva Ramos (Mercedes-Bentley) +9 laps
Ret. B. Bira (Aston Martin-Jaguar) +15 laps/Gearbox
Ret. Peter Whitehead (Bentley-O.S.C.A.) +18 laps/Oil leak
Ret. Tony Bettenhausen (Aston Martin-Jaguar) +20 laps/Clutch
Ret. José Froilan Gonzalez (O.S.C.A.-Bentley) +52 laps/Transmission
Ret. Desmond Titterington (Lancia) +54 laps/Fuel pump
Ret. Paco Godia (Gordini) +80 laps/Accident
Ret. Tony Gaze (Alfa Romeo) +84 laps/Collision
Ret. Jacques Swaters (O.S.C.A.-Bentley) +84 laps/Collision
Ret. Jack Brabham (Alfa Romeo) +90 laps/Accident
Ret. Giuseppe Farina (Alfa Romeo) +91 laps/Collision
Ret. Stirling Moss (Bentley-O.S.C.A.) +91 laps/Collision
Ret. Lance Macklin (Bentley-Ferrari) +91 laps/Collision
Ret. Robert Manzon (Gordini) +94 laps/Gearbox

Fastest lap: Dries van der Lof (Aston Martin-Jaguar) - 1:42.02

Championship standings
Drivers
1. Dries van der Lof - 9
2. Consalvo Sanesi - 6
3. Alberto Ascari - 4
4. Maria Teresa de Filippis - 3
5. Porfirio Rubirosa - 2
6. Maurice Trintignant - 1

Constructors
1. Aston Martin-Jaguar - 9
2. Gordini - 6
3. Phoenix-O.S.C.A. - 4
4. O.S.C.A. - 3

Entrants
1. Jaguar - Aston Martin Racing - 9
2. Alexander Racing Team - 6
3. Phoenix Racing Organisation - 4
4. Maria Teresa de Filippis - 3

No injuries. Post-race report will be up either later today or sometime tomorrow.

Oh, what might have been.

I've trying to find out where the lack of performance comes from, and the major factor seems to be the lack of driver experience or quality. That's why Claes will be driving in France for ENB, and i strongly suggest Maserati to run the more experienced Pilette in France to see what difference it will make.
Sadly for Davison, it looks like he's just not up for the job, because he got beaten by Bianchi in a similar car in the non-championship race. That Jag engine might be slightly less than the other Jag, but it's defenitely not worse than a 3 year old Maserati whilst Davisons theoretical performance was always higher than the other Cooper drivers.

This is rather off-topic, I know, but I have a question for tommykl about the game mechanics. (Don't worry, I am not intending on using any information to manipulate the results, hence making this post public.)

You originally said in your first post in the 1950 thread:

I'd figure out the race results in a realistic-but-random manner (using dice, a points system, performance bias and mathematics) while you lot decide what happens behind the scenes.

Recently, in looking through some motorsport magazines from the 1990s, I saw an advertisement for a Grand Prix board game, and in Googling it, I found a web-page reviewing a number of GP board games, here. I don't suppose that you use any of these to simulate this championship, do you?

dr-baker wrote:Recently, in looking through some motorsport magazines from the 1990s, I saw an advertisement for a Grand Prix board game, and in Googling it, I found a web-page reviewing a number of GP board games, here. I don't suppose that you use any of these to simulate this championship, do you?

No, it's nothing as rudimentary as a board game. It's a pretty complicated Excel spreadsheet (I looked at it and don't understand even a tiny bit of it).

Biscione wrote:

dr-baker wrote:Recently, in looking through some motorsport magazines from the 1990s, I saw an advertisement for a Grand Prix board game, and in Googling it, I found a web-page reviewing a number of GP board games, here. I don't suppose that you use any of these to simulate this championship, do you?

No, it's nothing as rudimentary as a board game. It's a pretty complicated Excel spreadsheet (I looked at it and don't understand even a tiny bit of it).

Ah yes, I do seem to remember reading that elsewhere now. And if you don't understand the spreadsheet, Biscione, I sure as heck wouldn't!

dr-baker wrote:

Biscione wrote:

dr-baker wrote:Recently, in looking through some motorsport magazines from the 1990s, I saw an advertisement for a Grand Prix board game, and in Googling it, I found a web-page reviewing a number of GP board games, here. I don't suppose that you use any of these to simulate this championship, do you?

No, it's nothing as rudimentary as a board game. It's a pretty complicated Excel spreadsheet (I looked at it and don't understand even a tiny bit of it).

Ah yes, I do seem to remember reading that elsewhere now. And if you don't understand the spreadsheet, Biscione, I sure as heck wouldn't!

Indeed, I started with a couple of dice and a spreadsheet, before switching to just the spreadsheet with some formulae after two races.

And the spreadsheet isn't complex as much as it isn't marked. If you didn't know what each part was for, you'd just see a random bunch of numbers

Post-race report
Damage costs
Godia's chassis (G-953 chassis 2) - £21 775
Gaze's chassis (AR160 chassis 1) - £6 222
Swaters's chassis (F154 chassis 5) - £843
Brabham's chassis (AR161 chassis 1) - £16 246
Farina's chassis (AR161 chassis 2) - £7 640
Moss' chassis (Speed 4 chassis 9) - £3 232
Macklin's chassis (Speed 4 Chassis 2) - £18 681

Prize money (distance)
Dries van der Lof - £2 000
Consalvo Sanesi - £1 960
Alberto Ascari - £1 950
Maria Teresa de Filippis - £1 920
Porfirio Rubirosa - £1 910
Maurice Trintignant - £1 910
Hernando da Silva Ramos - £1 910
B. Bira - £1 850
Peter Whitehead - £1 820
Tony Bettenhausen - £1 800
José Froilan Gonzalez - £1 480
Desmond Titterington - £1 460
Paco Godia - £1 200
Tony Gaze - £1 160
Jacques Swaters - £1 160
Jack Brabham - £1 100
Giuseppe Farina - £1 090
Stirling Moss - £1 090
Lance Macklin - £1 090
Robert Manzon - £1 060
Bib Stillwell - £500
Stan Jones - £500
Harry Schell - £500
Dorino Serafini - £500
Toulo de Graffenried - £500
David Hampshire - £500
Dennis Poore - £500
André Pilette - £500

From now on, as an attempt to thin down the field, prize money for position has been reduced slightly. Instead of £300 000 total for Monaco and £250 000 everywhere else, it will be £250 000 in Monaco and £200 000 everywhere else. Again, this sum is split in two, half going to the teams immediately, the other going to the end-of-season pot.

Dries van der Lof - £27 500
Consalvo Sanesi - £21 250
Alberto Ascari - £16 500
Maria Teresa de Filippis - £11 750
Porfirio Rubirosa - £9 000
Maurice Trintignant - £6 250
Hernando da Silva Ramos - £5 500
B. Bira - £4 750
Tony Bettenhausen - £4 750
Peter Whitehead - £4 000
José Froilan Gonzalez - £2 500
Desmond Titterington - £2 250
Paco Godia - £2 000
Tony Gaze - £1 750
Jacques Swaters - £1 500
Jack Brabham - £1 250
Giuseppe Farina - £1 000
Stirling Moss - £750
Lance Macklin - £500
Robert Manzon - £250

Budgets updated. Also, as this hadn't been an issue before, I'm fixing the debt ceiling of new teams at £10 000, no matter the budget.

*sight* Alfa to pay all repairs...

tommykl wrote:Post-race report
Damage costs
Macklin's chassis (Speed 4 Chassis 2) - £18 681

Well, if that was his repair bill, I'm glad he bumped Anne Hall out of pre-qualifying!

…Like really. Seriously.

Reatherson will not pay that chunk as of yet, and replace the Speed 4 Chassis 2 with the Ferrari 555 chassis 4 for upcoming rounds featuring Macklin for now.

What I meant was, I'm glad we didn't get that repair bill ourselves. Of course it's unfortunate for anybody to get a bill that size.

dr-baker wrote:What I meant was, I'm glad we didn't get that repair bill ourselves. Of course it's unfortunate for anybody to get a bill that size.

No, wasn't commenting towards your comment. Just the fact that the repair bill is pretty much my entire budget for the season

WaffleCat wrote:

dr-baker wrote:What I meant was, I'm glad we didn't get that repair bill ourselves. Of course it's unfortunate for anybody to get a bill that size.

No, wasn't commenting towards your comment. Just the fact that the repair bill is pretty much my entire budget for the season

Yeah, it was pretty horrendous. Yet it was still only the second highest bill after the race!

Moss' and Swaters' chassis will be repaired, with the costs shared between O.S.C.A. and Bentley.

Reduction of prize money is not in our favour. However we shall not complain but try harder next time.

Gordini Will build another chassis for Godia which will be equipped with Engine 3

Chassis 2 will be scrapped

Alright, because I really want to get this season done relatively quickly, I'll try to start running Reims over the weekend.

If your entries aren't complete, you have until Saturday, February 7th at 1pm CET to complete them, or they will be pulled from the entry list.

As I mentioned earlier, we will offer the A-003 chassis to Luigi Villoresi for the French Grand Prix.

Guidobaldi will run Etancellin with the FG01 chassis 2 and the Mercedes UM153 engine 14.

IRA confirms its two entries for Reims. We hope to finish the race this time (even though it's Reims ).

Roy Salvadori will be driving the second Hampshire entry at Reims. Also, as an experiment, his Bentley chassis will be fitted with the OSCA engine that HRA have in their possession for this round.

FRacing will run Roberto Mieres in the Bentley Speed 4 chassis - FIAT 155.

B.C.M.A., having recovered from the rather embarrassing breakdowns of its trucks in northern France two weeks prior, has instituted a contingency plan ensuring that such a catastrophe will never occur again.

Drivers will be assigned according to the following packages:

Peter Collins - C-01 1, Griffin 3
Tony Brooks - C-01 2, Griffin 1
Umberto Maglioli - C-01 3, Griffin 2

ENB - Johnny Claes - Cooper T41 chassis 1 +Jaguar JFE-2 engine 7
Should Assasti Milanti fail to confirm their entries in time, ENB will enter Ferrari 555 chassis 8 + Ferrari 555 engine 1 instead for Paul Frère.

Also, I forgot to run the RNG for Cesare Perdisa.

Cesare "No, it doesn't mean loser" Perdisa
1-85: takes the full-time drive for the team he drove for in Singapore
86-100: continues being irrelevant
Result: 67
Perdisa will complete the season at Renzo.

Tasman Racing Alliance will continue to run Stillwell in the O.S.C.A.-Vanwall.

The Cooper T41 is available to be leased out to any team for a negotiable price

Ecurie Maghreb will run the same thing as in Monaco (Andre Guelfi in the Lancia engine/chassis combo)

Scuderia Australasia will run our Jaguar engine and Aston Martin chassis, in a bid to see whether its the Cooper chassis that is slow or Davison himself.