Grand Prix Rejects

patrick wrote:the worst part was rob smedley's radio message afterwards. it was almost heartbreaking to hear

It was. Rob Smedley sounded positively dejected.

Smedley should resign if he's part of this fiasco.

ADx_Wales wrote:Smedley should resign if he's part of this fiasco.

Oh, stop it. We all know it comes from Domenicalli.

ferrari

(no, those censored aren't even worth capitalizing. goddamn Alonso and goddamn ferrari, I hope they would just die a horrible death and stop ruining this sport. I'm just bloody glad Räikkönen no longer drives for them so I don't need to support them by proxy of supporting a driver of theirs. bathplug ferrari. someone bomb the bathplug maranello off the face of the planet goddamnit)

This is Luca the money zombie's decision.

Makes

You

Sick.

I'm actually not going for Ferrari Team Orders. As much as it screwed up the spectacle, and as much as I wanted Massa to win, I'm not going brand Ferrari rejectworthy for it, because the order makes sense given the Championship situation, and team orders are part of F1 and always have been. Their only real mistake was to be so bloody well unsubtle about it. But to be perfectly honest, I'd rather see in broad daylight that one driver is favoured over the other rather than cloak and dagger behind the scenes.

And we'd be nominating them ROTR if they'd said to Alonso "if you want to be ahead of him, pass him" and he'd ended up running into the back Massa trying to do exactly that.


Force India's disaster weekend wins it for me.

Enforcer wrote:I'm actually not going for Ferrari Team Orders. As much as it screwed up the spectacle, and as much as I wanted Massa to win, I'm not going brand Ferrari rejectworthy for it, because the order makes sense given the Championship situation, and team orders are part of F1 and always have been. And we'd be nominating them ROTR if they'd said to Alonso "if you want to be ahead of him, pass him" and he'd ended up running into the back Massa trying to do exactly that.


Force India's disaster weekend wins it for me.

Team Orders are banned and no matter what anyones says that was bathpluggingly blatant use of team orders

1. Ferrari, obviously. They never learn, don't they?
2. The RTL pundits, for comparing Alonso's win to Spain's victory at the World Cup, hinting that they were both undeserved.

Enforcer wrote:I'm actually not going for Ferrari Team Orders. As much as it screwed up the spectacle, and as much as I wanted Massa to win, I'm not going brand Ferrari rejectworthy for it, because the order makes sense given the Championship situation, and team orders are part of F1 and always have been. Their only real mistake was to be so bloody well unsubtle about it. But to be perfectly honest, I'd rather see in broad daylight that one driver is favoured over the other rather than cloak and dagger behind the scenes.

And we'd be nominating them ROTR if they'd said to Alonso "if you want to be ahead of him, pass him" and he'd ended up running into the back Massa trying to do exactly that.


Force India's disaster weekend wins it for me.

I agree with this.

WeirdKerr wrote:

Enforcer wrote:I'm actually not going for Ferrari Team Orders. As much as it screwed up the spectacle, and as much as I wanted Massa to win, I'm not going brand Ferrari rejectworthy for it, because the order makes sense given the Championship situation, and team orders are part of F1 and always have been. And we'd be nominating them ROTR if they'd said to Alonso "if you want to be ahead of him, pass him" and he'd ended up running into the back Massa trying to do exactly that.


Force India's disaster weekend wins it for me.

Team Orders are banned and no matter what anyones says that was batpluggingly blatant use of team orders

I've highlighted the important word, all the teams have been doing it on the sly for the last few years. McLaren-Mercedes suddenly being asked to 'fuel save' when running together in Turkey and the subsequent mini-kerfuffle about what they actually meant, would be a recent example.

I'm not going to have an extended argument about it, I just feel Ferrari's move is understandable, if unsportsmanlike.

Also, very few people detract from Jordan's first win in 1998 because of: "Ralf, you cannot overtake Damon. That is a team order."

Although Brundle and Coulthard were right to say on ITV that the team management should've said it to Felipe instead of making Smedley do it.

Eddie says they should be disqualified
David says team orders are part of the history of F1, when in 98 he ably bent over for McLaren at Melbourne.

Everyone is corruptable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bsXOcK9 ... ure=avmsc2

The intro music for the race section of the podcast.

Simple As.

DonTirri wrote:someone bomb the bathplug maranello off the face of the planet goddamnit

I nominate this comment for ROTR. Joke or not, that's just uncalled for.

The Passenger wrote:

DonTirri wrote:someone bomb the bathplug maranello off the face of the planet goddamnit

I nominate this comment for ROTR. Joke or not, that's just uncalled for.

Google translate says no

I've been watching Ferrari pull of these censored moves for 15 friggin years. I'm tired of them ruining the sport and thinking they are bigger than the sport. So if someone blows up maranello, i would cheer in joy.

The Passenger wrote:

DonTirri wrote:someone bomb the bathplug maranello off the face of the planet goddamnit

I nominate this comment for ROTR. Joke or not, that's just uncalled for.

Seconded

ADx_Wales wrote:Eddie says they should be disqualified
David says team orders are part of the history of F1, when in 98 he ably bent over for McLaren at Melbourne.

Everyone is corruptable.

I'll change my nomination to Eddie Jordan for that. Like he wouldn't have done it too. Actually, now that I think of it - he did!

Ferrari. That was disgusting. Alonso was always going to catch Massa - they could have at least tried to make it look like a clean pass. They manipulate the race outcome, and now it seems they're trying to throw the book at Red Bull for flexible front wings.

CarlosFerreira wrote:Yeah, he did screw up and he's overdriving. It's embarrassing he's only managed to qualify one place ahead of Schumacher, and 3 places ahead of the second Renault driver, Vitaly Whotshisname.

Would you like to re-think your answer now that the race is over?

DonTirri wrote:

The Passenger wrote:

DonTirri wrote:someone bomb the bathplug maranello off the face of the planet goddamnit

I nominate this comment for ROTR. Joke or not, that's just uncalled for.

No voi ny vittu, vetäppä vittu päähäs ja vihellä.

I've been watching Ferrari pull of these shittyass moves for 15 friggin years. I'm tired of them ruining the sport and thinking they are bigger than the sport. So if someone blows up maranello, i would cheer in joy.

No wait I nominate this one...

Force India, for being about as forceful as a feather. They had an atrocious weekend, in what's probably the 5th best car on the grid, Liuzzi noobed in Q1, and he and Sutil didn't do ANYTHING of note in the race. I would have voted for Ferrari Team Orders as well, but the thing is that Force India should not be sucking this bad. The Force was definitely not with them, young Skywalker.

@DonTirri- Hmm, I have a less ... er, unnecessarily violent solution, build a Killdozer and send it there!

Parempi pyy pivossa kuin kymmenen oksalla.

Ferrari is my pick for ROTR.
Besides their attitude of coding the team orders is borderline insulting and pathetic. But it is probably what will avoid a penalty for them.
An in that case, the ROTR should be FIA for banning team orders but doing absolutely nothing when those happen.

rffp wrote:Besides their attitude of coding the team orders is borderline insulting and pathetic.

I think you are missing the point. They didn't even try to give a coded order. They should have done like McLaren: "Guys, we need to save fuel". Yeah right....

The contenders would be Force India for being generally useless - their poorest weekend of the season. Sebastian Vettel for yet again not converting pole to a race victory.

However it has to go to Ferrari. Blatant use of team orders! They were made illegal by their blatant use by Ferrari in the past and now they go and do it again. It will be a travesty if the stewards don't penalize them for this! Holding station because there is no competition and you need to save fuel is not the same as reversing the order of two cars in a competitive race!!

Felipe handled the situation very well, in my opinion. You could tell he wasn't happy, but he kept it very much to himself and was right in saying that nothing needed to be said. It was all seen and heard anyway.

I'd like to nominate the team who applied team orders which deprived the fans of a great race and meddled with the championship outcome. I am speaking of course of McClaren.

Jenson came out of his pit stop obviously quicker than Lewis and on better tyres. But he was obviously told to hold station behind Lewis. Remember THIS IS THE FIGHT FOR THE CHAMPIONSHIP LEAD, aand they cruised round in formation with no sign of an overtaking move. Whats going on??

Ferrari, for stupidity more than anything. Team orders are bad but its understandable. But to do it so blatantly is dumb frankly, I don't know why they didn't just leave Massa out there for another lap or two before his pitstop. That would have let Alonso on new tyres get ahead. For being useless at disguising the team orders, Ferrari get this award.

Ross Prawn wrote:I'd like to nominate the team who applied team orders which deprived the fans of a great race and meddled with the championship outcome. I am speaking of course of McClaren.

Jenson came out of his pit stop obviously quicker than Lewis and on better tyres. But he was obviously told to hold station behind Lewis. Remember THIS IS THE FIGHT FOR THE CHAMPIONSHIP LEAD, aand they cruised round in formation with no sign of an overtaking move. Whats going on??

But it wasn't blatant, so that makes it alright.

Ross Prawn wrote:I'd like to nominate the team who applied team orders which deprived the fans of a great race and meddled with the championship outcome. I am speaking of course of McClaren.

Jenson came out of his pit stop obviously quicker than Lewis and on better tyres. But he was obviously told to hold station behind Lewis. Remember THIS IS THE FIGHT FOR THE CHAMPIONSHIP LEAD, aand they cruised round in formation with no sign of an overtaking move. Whats going on??

Maybe they used the Ferrari debacle as a distraction.

Rob Smedley has apparently said Massa made a mistake when upshifting, hence him slowing down. What do Ferrari take us for??? That's just insulting to F1 fans frankly.

Maybe that's what Felipe meant by "Nothing needs to be said."

I was committed to not watching F1 after monaco because of what happened there, I missed the turkish GP, could not be bothered with Canada and Valencia, but then the British GP was very good, now I'm back into it THIS bloody happens!!!

I see Christian Horner has made a late bid for ROTR by taking a holier-than-thou position on the Ferrari situation.

Pot. Kettle. Black. Anyone?

This is an F1 minefield I dont want to get involved in. See you on the other side guys!

eytl wrote:I see Christian Horner has made a late bid for ROTR by taking a holier-than-thou position on the Ferrari situation.

Pot. Kettle. Black. Anyone?

He can join Eddie Jordan in that respect.

Enforcer wrote:

WeirdKerr wrote:

Enforcer wrote:I'm actually not going for Ferrari Team Orders. As much as it screwed up the spectacle, and as much as I wanted Massa to win, I'm not going brand Ferrari rejectworthy for it, because the order makes sense given the Championship situation, and team orders are part of F1 and always have been. And we'd be nominating them ROTR if they'd said to Alonso "if you want to be ahead of him, pass him" and he'd ended up running into the back Massa trying to do exactly that.


Force India's disaster weekend wins it for me.

Team Orders are banned and no matter what anyones says that was batpluggingly blatant use of team orders

I've highlighted the important word, all the teams have been doing it on the sly for the last few years. McLaren-Mercedes suddenly being asked to 'fuel save' when running together in Turkey and the subsequent mini-kerfuffle about what they actually meant, would be a recent example.

I'm not going to have an extended argument about it, I just feel Ferrari's move is understandable, if unsportsmanlike.

Well, it seems that Horner has already decided to pitch in and try to maximise the media damage to Ferrari by saying that the team orders were as blatant as Austria 2002. Meanwhile, Eddie Jordan seems to be utterly apoplectic at the decision, especially since he seemed to be rooting for Massa in this race, given that he was doing so well.
To be honest, as pointed out before, there is a painful logic in Ferrari's decision; out of the two drivers, Alonso is probably the more likely to be capable of taking the title, and Massa was already a long way behind him before the race began. And although he had dropped him briefly, Alonso had already begun to catch Massa before the team orders, and had been very quick all weekend. Coupled to that, we know that team orders have not left the sport - we saw Kimi handing over his position in China in 2008, for example, in a similarly choreographed and clear manner, and team orders have been present right from the start of F1 up until now.
Nevertheless, just because they have been frequently used in the past, doesn't lessen the bitter after taste which is left in the mouth after such an incident. It is going to overshadow what was a very strong performance by Ferrari, who seem to have closed the gap to Red Bull now, and perhaps have even passed them, and what was a strong performance by both drivers. The only people who are going to be pleased about this are Red Bull - since for the first time in a long time, the focus is going to be off their two drivers and on another team, and it'll give them a breather (since they seemed to be uncomfortable with the attention which they were now getting after their drivers bickering).

Ironically, this incident is almost certainly overshadowing some very bone headed decisions further down the grid - for a start, the utter mess that Force India made of this weekend, which went from bad to worse from the start (and culminated in giving the drivers the wrong tyres), and the two Toro Rosso cars coming together at the hairpin and wrecking each others race (although to be fair to Buemi, Alguersuari was the main guilty party in that incident).

Captain Hammer wrote:Ferrari. That was disgusting. Alonso was always going to catch Massa - they could have at least tried to make it look like a clean pass. They manipulate the race outcome, and now it seems they're trying to throw the book at Red Bull for flexible front wings.

I don't think that Ferrari were the ones who complained about the Red Bull front wing, as Brundle mentioned that the FIA is also looking at Ferrari's front wing for the same problem (which makes me suspect that it is more likely to be Mclaren, Mercedes or Renault who have complained - and I'd suspect the first one of those, as they have the most to gain).

Ross Prawn wrote:I'd like to nominate the team who applied team orders which deprived the fans of a great race and meddled with the championship outcome. I am speaking of course of McClaren.

Jenson came out of his pit stop obviously quicker than Lewis and on better tyres. But he was obviously told to hold station behind Lewis. Remember THIS IS THE FIGHT FOR THE CHAMPIONSHIP LEAD, aand they cruised round in formation with no sign of an overtaking move. Whats going on??

So why, after he came out behind Hamilton, would they be encouraging him on with positive radio messages in that case, telling Button that he was one of the quickest drivers on track? Furthermore, they were telling Hamilton to back off and save fuel, otherwise they'd have to go to a very lean fuel mix at the end of the race - but they didn't tell Button to back off, as far as I am aware.
The problem is, Button has picked up his pace, but had fallen too far back off the start (and before his pit stop, you can see that the tyres were beginning to let go, as his lap times had started to creep upwards from about lap 15 onwards). And if you take a look at the times, it doesn't look as if Button backed off - it looks more as if Hamilton picked up his pace instead (because they are both picking up their pace, but Hamilton's times dropped a bit more sharply compared to Button).

Well, clearly, the "good lads" at Ferrari.

Based on the RotR selection in Silverstone I don't think they are dead certainties, but I think its impossible to go past Ferrari.

I am devastated for Massa. He was slightly slower, but most of the losses seemed to come through traffic. Also, he was only ~12 points behind in the old system, which meant that the move was reeking of desperation.

DC has it nearly right. It's a poor rule. Team orders have always existed, always will & all teams do it to a greater or lesser extent. It's always been a part of motor racing whilst I have been following it (you all know how OLD I am!) & it's been accepted as the prerogative of the teams to "employ" their drivers as they see fit.
Occasionally (as today) one feels a great deal of sympathy for the "injured" party but the old cliche oft bandied about in the distant past was; "It's MOTOR racing, not driver racing".....
Every team would do something similar in the same circumstances...if VET or HAM needed to win the last race to clinch the title & were closing on WEB/BUT; what would happen.......yep........