Grand Prix Rejects

CarlosFerreira wrote:It's looking ever more bleak by the minute. The choices I can see for HRT to race next year are to adapt this year's car to the new regulations (that would be fun) or to have the drivers sit on the Williams gearbox and try to run down the track, no chassis.

I guess it is time to prepare their profile for the website.

I don't think they've pulled a Stefan, i think it's safe to say HRT were a far more serious prospect than Stefan ever was.

What's interesting is how this relates to the Hulkenberg decision - What williams had on the table for him was a year parked at HRT until Rubens retired, and the way i see it, either one of two things has happened:

1 - Hulkenberg knew HRT were doomed, and would rather take his chances now than in January when they finally admit they have no cars and even less money,
2 - The HRT/Williams gearbox deal was being paid for (at least in part), by them giving Hulkenberg a drive next year. Hulkenberg saying no suddenly left HRT needing to find money to pay to Williams, and as such defaulted on a payment to Toyota. Toyota, having got burned by the SGP fiasco, immediately walked away.

I have a feeling it's more likely the former, but I do kind of like the latter theory...

Ferrim wrote:I don't think that HRT are much better off with Villalonga on board, to be honest.

I would have liked to be wrong on this one.

This is very funny; The only team in F1 with no facilities to build a car has an outdated Dallara chassis to compete in 2011

Maybe they will turn and beg Epsilon Euskadi a partnership??

At best, it looks like HRT will pull a MasterCard Lola. Be miles off the pace and DNQ due to the 107% rule. They pretty much need to sign up two drivers with bigger wallets than Pastor Maldonado in order to save their sinking ship.

Cynon wrote:At best, it looks like HRT will pull a MasterCard Lola. Be miles off the pace and DNQ due to the 107% rule. They pretty much need to sign up two drivers with bigger wallets than Pastor Maldonado in order to save their sinking ship.

I was thinking if actually they may turn up to Eric Broadley in order to get a car built??

Cynon wrote:At best, it looks like HRT will pull a MasterCard Lola. Be miles off the pace and DNQ due to the 107% rule. They pretty much need to sign up two drivers with bigger wallets than Pastor Maldonado in order to save their sinking ship.

HRT can only get better. The most recent new teams all only got better in their 2nd year. Super Aguri, Torro Rosso, Spyker?, Force India. They've got all the data and information, which they can put their piggy bank into on their 2011 program.

Peter wrote:

Cynon wrote:At best, it looks like HRT will pull a MasterCard Lola. Be miles off the pace and DNQ due to the 107% rule. They pretty much need to sign up two drivers with bigger wallets than Pastor Maldonado in order to save their sinking ship.

HRT can only get better. The most recent new teams all only got better in their 2nd year. Super Aguri, Torro Rosso, Spyker?, Force India. They've got all the data and information, which they can put their piggy bank into on their 2011 program.

That´s true, but if they were putting all their hopes into Toyota´s car then they´re pretty much bathplug, since it´s quite late to start a new project. Lotus is 4 months ahead of them, and Virgin probably 2 or 3. Now, not only they need a new car, but new sponsors to properly develop that car. The new investor can probably attract some sponsors, but I´m afraid that alone won´t be enough.

Aerond wrote:

Cynon wrote:At best, it looks like HRT will pull a MasterCard Lola. Be miles off the pace and DNQ due to the 107% rule. They pretty much need to sign up two drivers with bigger wallets than Pastor Maldonado in order to save their sinking ship.

I was thinking if actually they may turn up to Eric Broadley in order to get a car built??

That's more possible than one might think, but if Reynard were still around, it would be likely that Kolles would try to get the latter. Terminating the deal with Dallara was stupid. Yes, it looked as if they were about to go anyway, but you could have at least held on to them for as long as possible. Knowing their GP2 experience, they would have been the best choice. Lola sounds good though, but only if you gave them time. If a deal is penned, then get ready for another T93/30.

About the driver situation, we could always force Pedro Diniz out of retirement.

It's not just about time, it's about money - They kept defaulting on payments to Dallara, they've defaulted on payments to Toyota. I can't imagine Lola (or anyone) cheerfully building them a car on credit given their history, they clearly don't have the cash to pay up front, and they don't have the facilities to build it in-house. Short of running this year's car again (which would surely start falling foul of the 107% regularly as the season wore on, if not from the very beginning), I really don't see what they can do.

Does anybody else think that HRT went into negotiations with Toyota in the hope that one of the last races of the season would be attritional and therefore, HRT might get an 11th place or even a point, securing them tenth place in the championship? I'm standing up.

RAK wrote:Does anybody else think that HRT went into negotiations with Toyota in the hope that one of the last races of the season would be attritional and therefore, HRT might get an 11th place or even a point, securing them tenth place in the championship? I'm standing up.

That wouldn't surprise me, and would back-up the dropping of Yamamoto when they really needed his money in order to slot Klien in.

However, I don't think all is quite lost for HRT just yet - as some people have been saying over at the Autosport forums, this years tub, combined with the Williams rear end, and some Geoff Willis aerodynamic improvements would be achievable on a low budget, in the timescale available and wouldn't be any less competitive than they've been this year. I'd wager they've got something up their sleeves, Kolles wouldn't want to trash what little reputation he has as a team boss by steering an already sinking ship into oblivion, and why would the Carabantes stick around (and they were all smiles in the Hispania photos from Abu Dhabi)?

Valrys wrote:

RAK wrote:Does anybody else think that HRT went into negotiations with Toyota in the hope that one of the last races of the season would be attritional and therefore, HRT might get an 11th place or even a point, securing them tenth place in the championship? I'm standing up.

That wouldn't surprise me, and would back-up the dropping of Yamamoto when they really needed his money in order to slot Klien in.

The problem with that theory is that even if something crazy had happened and they'd stolen 10th somehow, it's not as if they would get the money in their account that night. I get the impression money was due by midday on monday, and there's absolutely no way they would have had that in time, regardless of results.
Hacking this year's car about might get them something legal for next year, but I think even saying 'it won't be any less competive than it was this year' is very optimistic.

Right now I'd rate hispania's likelihood of being at Bahrain next year as well below 50-50, probably below 25%.

Have we had any official statement from HRT high-ups about the collapse of the deal yet?

Jordan192 wrote:The problem with that theory is that even if something crazy had happened and they'd stolen 10th somehow, it's not as if they would get the money in their account that night. I get the impression money was due by midday on monday, and there's absolutely no way they would have had that in time, regardless of results.
Hacking this year's car about might get them something legal for next year, but I think even saying 'it won't be any less competive than it was this year' is very optimistic.

Right now I'd rate hispania's likelihood of being at Bahrain next year as well below 50-50, probably below 25%.

Have we had any official statement from HRT high-ups about the collapse of the deal yet?

Yes. Geoff Willis said "No comment until Kolles and the Carabantes have commented" while the team issued an official statement proclaiming their surprise at Toyotas comments and saying they would be asking them to clarify them.

It's all a little fuzzy at the moment. However, I'm pretty sure Hispania will be in Bahrain, whether they'll qualify and make it through 2011 though, is another question.

I'll risk saying that HRT won't be at Bahrain.

Jeroen Krautmeir wrote:

Aerond wrote:

Cynon wrote:At best, it looks like HRT will pull a MasterCard Lola. Be miles off the pace and DNQ due to the 107% rule. They pretty much need to sign up two drivers with bigger wallets than Pastor Maldonado in order to save their sinking ship.

I was thinking if actually they may turn up to Eric Broadley in order to get a car built??

That's more possible than one might think, but if Reynard were still around, it would be likely that Kolles would try to get the latter. Terminating the deal with Dallara was stupid. Yes, it looked as if they were about to go anyway, but you could have at least held on to them for as long as possible. Knowing their GP2 experience, they would have been the best choice. Lola sounds good though, but only if you gave them time. If a deal is penned, then get ready for another T93/30.

I think it could be T97 territory. As you well know, it made the T93/30* look like the Ferrari F2004. At this stage, it's hard to see how HRT will make the grid without effectively selling themselves to someone else. They can't build their own car, modding the Dallara they have is hardly worthwhile, and if they can't pay Toyota to do... whatever they were doing, I doubt they'll be able to afford someone to build them a new car.

*The source of my favourite alleged F1 quote ever. Michele Alboreto does his installation lap, comes back, lifts his visor and says: "We're dead".

RAK wrote:Does anybody else think that HRT went into negotiations with Toyota in the hope that one of the last races of the season would be attritional and therefore, HRT might get an 11th place or even a point, securing them tenth place in the championship? I'm standing up.

They were probably hoping for a 1-2 finish to end up 1 points behind Sauber. That would have to be attritional.

HRT have done all they could to save face for their owners. They have achieved this by beating Virgin Racing / Manor Motorsport in the team standings, a/k/a by not coming home last. It's been quite amazing what Colin Kolles and his team have achieved on such short notice for HRT. Aren't Kolles and his team also just hired hands of HRT? It's very likely that the owners are looking for a buyer.

Yannick wrote:HRT have done all they could to save face for their owners. They have achieved this by beating Virgin Racing / Manor Motorsport in the team standings, a/k/a by not coming home last. It's been quite amazing what Colin Kolles and his team have achieved on such short notice for HRT. Aren't Kolles and his team also just hired hands of HRT? It's very likely that the owners are looking for a buyer.

BLASPHEMY! HERESY! HRT was a cheap team, and it acted accordingly. The only thing they got right was to be there for Bahrain and last the season, which was the bare basics anyway. Go home, Colin Kolles!

Phoenix wrote:

Yannick wrote:HRT have done all they could to save face for their owners. They have achieved this by beating Virgin Racing / Manor Motorsport in the team standings, a/k/a by not coming home last. It's been quite amazing what Colin Kolles and his team have achieved on such short notice for HRT. Aren't Kolles and his team also just hired hands of HRT? It's very likely that the owners are looking for a buyer.

BLASPHEMY! HERESY! HRT was a cheap team, and it acted accordingly. The only thing they got right was to be there for Bahrain and last the season, which was the bare basics anyway. Go home, Colin Kolles!

How so? Explain please...

Peter wrote:

Cynon wrote:At best, it looks like HRT will pull a MasterCard Lola. Be miles off the pace and DNQ due to the 107% rule. They pretty much need to sign up two drivers with bigger wallets than Pastor Maldonado in order to save their sinking ship.

HRT can only get better. The most recent new teams all only got better in their 2nd year. Super Aguri, Torro Rosso, Spyker?, Force India. They've got all the data and information, which they can put their piggy bank into on their 2011 program.

If they can't get a new chassis by next year it would be safe to say that HRT won't be doing better in their 2nd year. (That is unless they sign HWNSNBM and Chuck Norris as drivers next year). Also while the data and information may help them gain a tenth of a second a lap, it wouldn't be of much use if their closest rivals with their newer, better developed cars gained half a second a lap.

Jordan192 wrote:

Valrys wrote:

RAK wrote:Does anybody else think that HRT went into negotiations with Toyota in the hope that one of the last races of the season would be attritional and therefore, HRT might get an 11th place or even a point, securing them tenth place in the championship? I'm standing up.

That wouldn't surprise me, and would back-up the dropping of Yamamoto when they really needed his money in order to slot Klien in.

The problem with that theory is that even if something crazy had happened and they'd stolen 10th somehow, it's not as if they would get the money in their account that night. I get the impression money was due by midday on monday, and there's absolutely no way they would have had that in time, regardless of results.
Hacking this year's car about might get them something legal for next year, but I think even saying 'it won't be any less competive than it was this year' is very optimistic.

Right now I'd rate hispania's likelihood of being at Bahrain next year as well below 50-50, probably below 25%.

Have we had any official statement from HRT high-ups about the collapse of the deal yet?

Sorry, just writing a few quick words here and there - it seems that back on the 16th, HRT did put out a statement where they said that they were surprised by Toyota's decision to cancel negotiations:

"Hispania Racing is very surprised about Toyota's press statement released this afternoon and this matter will be a subject of further clarification."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/88318
However, apart from that short and terse message, there have been no further comments from either side on the affair, and no signs that HRT are investing in facilities of their own.

As for using the 2010 Dallara built chassis, that might be possible, but there is the possibility that the new components from Williams might cause a few problems - part of Brawn GP's problems with their car included the need to change from a Honda gearbox to a Mclaren - Mercedes designed unit instead, which had slightly different dimensions and suspension mounting points. Besides, there are more questions about such a decision - there is a possibility of delamination, micro cracking (remember Vettel's chassis being replaced during the season) and so forth, which might damage the chassis beyond repair.
If that happened, and I doubt that Dallara or anybody else could make a replacement chassis (or want to in the case of Dallara), you'd be potentially in major problems.

And even an updated car, with a new rear end and updated aerodynamics, could be miles off the pace - bear in mind that Virgin Racing and Lotus Racing are targeting improvements in the order of two to three seconds a lap, and it'll take quite a bit of work to make that sort of deficit up on a car which was already the slowest of the new teams this year. Most teams have been working on their cars for several months now - even Lotus and Virgin Racing gave up development about halfway through the season - so to start from scratch on a car now will be a big ask. Sub contracting, meanwhile, might be difficult, because, as pointed out by others, why would, say, Lola, want to work with a company which has defaulted on payments several times before, and clearly not in a sound financial state?
The 107% rule makes things even worse - there are several races this year where they would have failed to qualify if the rule was in place (Canada, for example, where at least one and probably both drivers would have been out of the race).

All in all, unless there is a major investor steps in and puts in a lot of cash, there is a very strong possibility that HRT may cease to exist before Bahrain next year. And even if they make it there, they could collapse during the season - Super Aguri was able to struggle on for the start of its final season, before FOM (admittedly under heavy pressure from Honda) barred them from participating.

For your delight; what the 107% rule would have meant this year;

Bahrain; Senna and Chandhok
Australia; Di Grassi, Senna and Chandhok
Malaysia; Senna, Chandhok and Di Grassi
China; none
Spain; Senna and Chandhok
Monaco; Chandhok
Turkey; none
Canada; Chandhok
European GP; none
G.Britain; Chandhok and Yamamoto
Germany; Yamamoto
Hungary; Di Grassi, Senna and Yamamoto
Belgium; Not measurable due to rain
Italy; none
Singapore; Klien and Senna
Japan; Senna and Yamamoto
Korea; Di Grassi, Yamamoto and Senna
Brazil; Not measurable due to rain
Abu Dhabi; none

Interesting comments from Carabante
[url]
http://www.motorsport.com/news/article. ... 5007&FS=F1[/url]

Aerond wrote:For your delight; what the 107% rule would have meant this year;
...

I think your calculations are either off, or you're calculating 107% on the base of the Q3 time instead of Q1.

Valrys wrote:Interesting comments from Carabante
[url]
http://www.motorsport.com/news/article. ... 5007&FS=F1[/url]

Carabante wrote:This year we had 45 (million)

What they hell did they spend it on? Virgin brought a steady stream of updates for basically the same budget.

Jordan192 wrote:

Valrys wrote:Interesting comments from Carabante
[url]
http://www.motorsport.com/news/article. ... 5007&FS=F1[/url]

Carabante wrote:This year we had 45 (million)

What they hell did they spend it on? Virgin brought a steady stream of updates for basically the same budget.

I believe their deal with Dallara cost them in the region of $20million, then throw in at least another $5mil for some Engines.

Other than that:
a) Kolles is a terrible organiser (but we've seen him run F1 teams on a budget before....)
b) Someone, somewhere is draining money out of the team (Interest payments on loans maybe? Not sure where they got their money to pay Dallara from). I'd imagine someone also payed pretty heavily to get them on the grid for Bahrain considering how up shite creek they were just a few weeks before.
c) Kolles and the Carabantes aren't as stupid as they look, they wrote off 2010, and they didn't spend $45 million (notice he says "we had" not "we spent")

Or maybe it just costs $45 million to tool around at the back like chumps, and Virgin found some big cost savings somewhere.

Valrys wrote:...and Virgin found some big cost savings somewhere.

*Cough*LowCostTravel*Cough*

Sorry... couldn't resist

Seriously though my two cents say that Bruno Senna should just bail out right now rather than wait and find that all avalaible seats have been taken.

Wizzie wrote:

Valrys wrote:...and Virgin found some big cost savings somewhere.

*Cough*LowCostTravel*Cough*

Sorry... couldn't resist

Seriously though my two cents say that Bruno Senna should just bail out right now rather than wait and find that all avalaible seats have been taken.

1Malaysia seemed to show some interest in him. I can see why...

Will williams gearboxes help them? They must have some funds to get that from them. Plus finshing the 2010 season and doing the end of year tests must mean they have quite a bit of funds....but maybe not enough to build a car for 2011?

ANZ_TF110 wrote:Will williams gearboxes help them? They must have some funds to get that from them. Plus finshing the 2010 season and doing the end of year tests must mean they have quite a bit of funds....but maybe not enough to build a car for 2011?

All their young test drivers brought money (Pastor supposedly around $1mil, Kral around £300,000), and on a budget of $45mil they're not even spending $1.3million a week, so I reckon they've netted themselves a nice profit from this week

HRT Will just follow the way of Stoddart. They'll give race seats to whoever pays more, switching drivers every year. I just really wanna know if Yamamoto will be their driver at the start of the season.

Valrys wrote:

ANZ_TF110 wrote:Will williams gearboxes help them? They must have some funds to get that from them. Plus finshing the 2010 season and doing the end of year tests must mean they have quite a bit of funds....but maybe not enough to build a car for 2011?

All their young test drivers brought money (Pastor supposedly around $1mil, Kral around £300,000), and on a budget of $45mil they're not even spending $1.3million a week, so I reckon they've netted themselves a nice profit from this week

Oh didnt realise they had a bit of cash with them stupid me, I hope they can complete in 2011, Formula One needs another underdog team like we had Super Aguri and Minardi

Phoenix wrote:

Wizzie wrote:

Valrys wrote:...and Virgin found some big cost savings somewhere.

*Cough*LowCostTravel*Cough*

Sorry... couldn't resist

Seriously though my two cents say that Bruno Senna should just bail out right now rather than wait and find that all avalaible seats have been taken.

1Malaysia seemed to show some interest in him. I can see why...

I can't. I truly hope there is sarcasm in your post.

I have a feeling that they need Senna because of sponsors, restoring the Senna+Lotus (although this name can be taken away from Fernandes)+Renault trio after... 25 years. He was in his first year, I say he needs a second year. If he still can't raise the ante, then... he's hopeless for sure.

Wizzie wrote:

Valrys wrote:...and Virgin found some big cost savings somewhere.

*Cough*LowCostTravel*Cough*

Sorry... couldn't resist

Seriously though my two cents say that Bruno Senna should just bail out right now rather than wait and find that all avalaible seats have been taken.

On a pragmatic note, FOM gave the new teams a very good deal when they signed up which included free transport for the teams (normally only awarded to established teams) and a special prize fund for the end of the season on top of the regular TV revenue that FOM doles out.
Also, Carabantes's statement isn't a good sign - Virgin are doing better on an even smaller budget (they admitted that they had the smallest amount of funding of the lot), and moreover he is some way out of date with his figures (Ferrari's budget this year is nowhere near €400 million, which is what Ferrari was spending back in 2005/6 when engine budgets were about €200 million a year - most estimates for this year were closer to half what Carabantes was suggesting because of heavily restricted engine development). On the other hand, it leads credence to rumours that Kolles, who has shifted HRT's operations to his facilities in Cologne, has been secretly bleeding the team dry for his own financial benefit...

mario wrote: On the other hand, it leads credence to rumours that Kolles, who has shifted HRT's operations to his facilities in Cologne, has been secretly bleeding the team dry for his own financial benefit...

He's walking a very dangerous path then, how many times have we seen team owners/principals/etc be arrested on fraud charges? Ironically it seems they were all happening during our favourite period of the late 80s/early 90s with teams not too dissimilar to HRT now. I suppose in that sense it would be a fitting way for the team to go out, in the manner of so many of their predecessors at the back of the grid...

Faustus wrote:

Phoenix wrote:1Malaysia seemed to show some interest in him. I can see why...

I can't. I truly hope there is sarcasm in your post.

Yes, there is.

mario wrote: On the other hand, it leads credence to rumours that Kolles, who has shifted HRT's operations to his facilities in Cologne, has been secretly bleeding the team dry for his own financial benefit...

Are you serious? Go to jail, Colin Kolles!
I really doubt HRT will even be able to take part in the season opener next season. They have nothing - no money, no facilities to develop a car, nothing.

Phoenix wrote:Are you serious? Go to jail, Colin Kolles!

Do not pass Go

And definately don't collect £200 no matter how much you need it for next year's car!

AndreaModa wrote:

Phoenix wrote:Are you serious? Go to jail, Colin Kolles!

Do not pass Go

What?