The 2012 IndyCar Series thread

Cynon · Post by **Cynon** » 21 Feb 2011, 01:47

F1000X wrote:I thought you foreigners didn't like Nascar? It was too boring and unrefined...

Naaah, too much passing.

JeremyMcClean wrote:I knew there was going to be a thread on this board, but I thought it would have came out of Cynon.

I spent more time on NASCAR boards admittedly then here the past week.

Oh, if you want to complain about the boring as crap 1.5 mile tracks, then you're pretty much in agreement with most of the NASCAR community. The cookie cutter ovals, the FAMILYFORUM'd up points system, and the horrendous car designs earn more derision from the NASCAR community then F1 fans throw at Tilkedromes and Bernie's Middle Eastern/Asian expansion. Trust me, you're not the only ones that hate those tracks.

I remember when Richmond was a great racetrack...

But I also agree that most of the races are way too long, but the reason for that is because track promoters wanted to promote their race as a potential equivalent to the Indy 500, and during the Energy Crisis of the late 1970s, NASCAR dropped all races less than 300 miles from the Cup schedule. There's a few races that should be more than 300 miles, but I can't think of more than 4 races that deserve that honor.

P_Friesacher · Post by **P_Friesacher** » 21 Feb 2011, 01:51

Cynon wrote:[...]during the Energy Crisis of the late 1970s, NASCAR dropped all races less than 300 miles from the Cup schedule.

What?! Did they try to make a point? "Wasteful and proud of it"?

But I agree - there are some races that really should be 500 miles - Daytona obviously being the prime example. But a few sprints in between wouldn't be bad.

Mister Fungus · Post by **Mister Fungus** » 21 Feb 2011, 10:01

Man. I really really tried to like NASCAR but it's races are so random. It's like reading a story without any structure only to have it resolve in a random way in the end, which usually hasn't got to do anything with the story. F1 races, and most other type of racing has some kind of a followable, logical structure even though they might often be boring.

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 21 Feb 2011, 11:49

I used to like NASCAR. I saw it on Eurosport and played NASCAR videogames (that one from EA). Until I started to notice those random cautions that not even the commentators knew the reason for. With that came that feeling that they were trying to manipulate it, improve the entertainment. Keeping the cars together and eventually fabricate winners... I reached the conclusion that, unless you wanted to see crashes, only the few last laps were worth watching. And that did it for me. Maybe someday I will give it another chance.

tristan1117 · Post by **tristan1117** » 21 Feb 2011, 13:24

The only thing I like about NASCAR are the green-white checkers. Even if its manufactured, I could care less. Seems like every race ends with one nowadays so I guess I have to try to get back into the sport. And on the topic of NASCAR video games, my favorite one was NASCAR Thunder 2003 for the Gamecube. Still playing it today!

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 21 Feb 2011, 15:15

I used to watch NASCAR when I lived in Canada, since the F1 coverage in Quebec was godawful, from late 2002 to mid 2006, by which time I had moved to Wales and lost interest. I'd have to say I thought 2003 was the best season of what I saw, from there I definitely got the feeling that things were being artificially bunched up. That and the fact that Jimmie Johnson bored the shite out of me. I would've enjoyed that season even more if somebody could've matched Ryan Newman in the fuel mileage races. And for the record, my favourite NASCAR game was NR 2003 by Papyrus for the PC.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 21 Feb 2011, 20:03

I enjoy the EA NASCAR games and I like to read the reviews of NASCAR in Autosport each week (mostly to find out how well JPM is doing and how well Earndhart isn't doing). But I wouldn't watch each race from start to finish week-in, week-out. And what a random finish to this year's 500!

Cynon · Post by **Cynon** » 21 Feb 2011, 21:40

@P_Friesacher: They also started the races with a certain number of laps automatically completed... so while they weren't actually 3, 4, 500 mile races, they were in reality less then that during that time as well.

@Mister Fungus: It's like watching an endurance race. Or a Bathurst 1000. I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at there unless you're referring to the simple fact that many of the more popular drivers are actually sucking.

Random debris cautions piss off many NASCAR fans: this one in particular.

Mister Fungus · Post by **Mister Fungus** » 21 Feb 2011, 21:55

I mean the races are random, unlike endurance racing. In endurance racing I know that Peugeuot/Audi or whoever won't suddenly start dropping places for no apparent reason, they'll drop if they have a bad tire strategy or reliability problems. In NASCAR the leading car, the guy who for instance overtook 5 other cars in the last 3 laps and gets the lead, suddenly starts losing positions and ends the race in 30th place or something even though he had no reliability problems and pitted when everyone else did. There are huge even lap to lap fluctuations in performance of the car and none of it makes sense to me. Why is he all of a sudden so much slower or faster?? In endurance, or any other type of racing I know the answer. I mean I was able to follow indy racing on ovals instantly, or Bathurst 1000 but events in a NASCAR race just make no sense at all.

F1000X · Post by **F1000X** » 22 Feb 2011, 02:37

Mister Fungus wrote:I mean the races are random, unlike endurance racing. In endurance racing I know that Peugeuot/Audi or whoever won't suddenly start dropping places for no apparent reason, they'll drop if they have a bad tire strategy or reliability problems. In NASCAR the leading car, the guy who for instance overtook 5 other cars in the last 3 laps and gets the lead, suddenly starts losing positions and ends the race in 30th place or something even though he had no reliability problems and pitted when everyone else did. There are huge even lap to lap fluctuations in performance of the car and none of it makes sense to me. Why is he all of a sudden so much slower or faster?? In endurance, or any other type of racing I know the answer. I mean I was able to follow indy racing on ovals instantly, or Bathurst 1000 but events in a NASCAR race just make no sense at all.

Ugh, I just a 1 page response to better explain why performance changes during a race are so frequent, and I don't have the will to write it out again. It should suffice to say this. I don't know you, and please don't take this the wrong way, but you may not know enough about car setup (particularly with regards to oval racing) to decipher what is going on, and why it happens. There is SIGNIFICANTLY more you can adjust on a cup car DURING A RACE than many other forms of racing (ride height, tire pressures, rear wing, grille tape, weight distribution, roll bars) and as a result the handling of a car can be changed dramatically in matter of seconds. In addition, changes in fuel load, tire pressure, and track temperature (especially) have a dramatic change on the handling. Tracks also rubber in remarkably over the course of a race.

I hope this explains it a bit. This is why at every pit stop they give you such verbose details about the setup changes.

When I was younger I didn't understand or appreciate NASCAR, now because I understand car setup I enjoy it. Watching cars slide off corners is pretty sick too.

F1000X · Post by **F1000X** » 22 Feb 2011, 02:44

Vepe wrote:Are you going to watch?

Also, I´d like to now some place where I can watch Indycars.

Indycar needs to run the Daytona Roval, Mosport, Road America, Michigan, and Circuit Gilles Villeneuve. Or, I'd trade that in for the impossible, Talladega.

whatisdeletrazdoing · Post by **whatisdeletrazdoing** » 23 Feb 2011, 02:16

Indy Car Talledega would be awesome!

F1000X · Post by **F1000X** » 23 Feb 2011, 19:00

We should just change this thread to be the dedicated American racing thread or alternately the Nascar/Indycar thread, so when the Indy 500 rolls around we can talk about that without creating unnecessary off topic threads.

shinji · Post by **shinji** » 23 Feb 2011, 19:01

F1000X wrote:We should just change this thread to be the dedicated American racing thread or alternately the Nascar/Indycar thread, so when the Indy 500 rolls around we can talk about that without creating unnecessary off topic threads.

...

F1000X · Post by **F1000X** » 23 Feb 2011, 19:03

shinji wrote:
F1000X wrote:We should just change this thread to be the dedicated American racing thread or alternately the Nascar/Indycar thread, so when the Indy 500 rolls around we can talk about that without creating unnecessary off topic threads.

...

WHEN WAS THIS? Merge them?

JohnMLTX · Post by **JohnMLTX** » 24 Feb 2011, 17:48

Merge this thread into the Indycar one, as we've already discussed where you can watch indycar racing both live and recorded.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 25 Feb 2011, 09:20

Kanaan falls victim to the great gods of money with De Farren's merry men quite possibly following him out the door.

I know it won't happen but I want to see Kanaan in a HRT.

Jeroen Krautmeir · Post by **Jeroen Krautmeir** » 25 Feb 2011, 15:41

Wizzie wrote:Kanaan falls victim to the great gods of money with De Farren's merry men quite possibly following him out the door.

I know it won't happen but I want to see Kanaan in a HRT.

I want to see Will Power in a HRT.

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 25 Feb 2011, 16:21

Jeroen Krautmeir wrote:
Wizzie wrote:Kanaan falls victim to the great gods of money with De Farren's merry men quite possibly following him out the door.

I know it won't happen but I want to see Kanaan in a HRT.

I want to see Will Power in a HRT.

I want to see Takuma Sato in a HRT.

For Will Power, the Renault would be a good car. I think he deserves better than an HRT.

Cynon · Post by **Cynon** » 25 Feb 2011, 19:48

Well, now Tony Kanaan and Gil de Ferran both look like idiots for jumping on a deal before it could be proven unfeasible. Also, what a joke of a team boss de Ferran is, wasn't he partially responsible for the joke known as Honda F1?

jpm · Post by **jpm** » 25 Feb 2011, 20:28

Cynon wrote:Well, now Tony Kanaan and Gil de Ferran both look like idiots for jumping on a deal before it could be proven unfeasible. Also, what a joke of a team boss de Ferran is, wasn't he partially responsible for the joke known as Honda F1?

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/89650

~I feel sorry for them both; I reckon they could have been really competitive... I wonder what will happen to TK and to Rapha Matos now? It seems there are so many excellent drivers on the fringes now (and we can't even blame Milka Duno for taking up a competitive ride!) Bertrand Baguette, Borudais, Paul Tracy, Dan Wheldon, Mario Moraes, Tomas Scheckter, Adam Carroll, Ana Beatriz and Bruno Junquiera etc.

Still, there are some promising rookies graduating from Indy Lghts; Wade Cunningham has finally got himself an IndyCar ride with Sam Schmidt, J.K. Vernay was one of France's brightest F1 hopes before winning Indy Lights last year, James Hinchcliffe is one of Canada's fastest drivers (apart from the brilliant Rob Wickens), British drivers Martin Plowman, Stefan Wilson and Pippa Mann.

In other news, did anyone notice that Conor Daly will be driving an indy-Lightscar this year alongside a full-time GP3 campaign?

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 02 Mar 2011, 16:17

Well this happened a few days ago: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/89621

Then this happened a couple of days later:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/89656

Now it seems that Mario Andretti is also tempted. I personally think is a great idea for Indycar a prize like that!

"We showcase our drivers as being the very best, fastest and most versatile in the world, and we are putting our money where our mouth is," Bernard said.

That is much bravado of course. And putting that in the last race which, by mere coincidence, clashes with races in both NASCAR and F1 helps to their cause. Anyway, I can think of 5 drivers I wanted to see racing taking into account the clashes with other series.

Sebastien Loeb
Andy Priaulx
Kimi Raikkonen
Tom Kristensen
Craig Lowndes

dinizintheoven · Post by **dinizintheoven** » 02 Mar 2011, 18:27

...and if Kimi can get into that race and win it - while also wearing his gorilla suit in the 30-odd-degree heat and entering under the name "James Hunt" - I'll give him another $5M. No idea where I'll find it from, mind...

Wonder if we could persuade HWNSNBM or Jean-Denis Délétraz to have a crack at it?

Cynon · Post by **Cynon** » 02 Mar 2011, 20:38

jpm wrote:
Cynon wrote:Well, now Tony Kanaan and Gil de Ferran both look like idiots for jumping on a deal before it could be proven unfeasible. Also, what a joke of a team boss de Ferran is, wasn't he partially responsible for the joke known as Honda F1?

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/89650

~I feel sorry for them both; I reckon they could have been really competitive... I wonder what will happen to TK and to Rapha Matos now? It seems there are so many excellent drivers on the fringes now (and we can't even blame Milka Duno for taking up a competitive ride!) Bertrand Baguette, Borudais, Paul Tracy, Dan Wheldon, Mario Moraes, Tomas Scheckter, Adam Carroll, Ana Beatriz and Bruno Junquiera etc.

Still, there are some promising rookies graduating from Indy Lghts; Wade Cunningham has finally got himself an IndyCar ride with Sam Schmidt, J.K. Vernay was one of France's brightest F1 hopes before winning Indy Lights last year, James Hinchcliffe is one of Canada's fastest drivers (apart from the brilliant Rob Wickens), British drivers Martin Plowman, Stefan Wilson and Pippa Mann.

In other news, did anyone notice that Conor Daly will be driving an indy-Lightscar this year alongside a full-time GP3 campaign?

Rapha Matos is taking up a spot on the IRL grid that belongs to someone else. I still hold firm to Kanaan and de Ferran looking really dumb, and when Kanaan was announced to getting the drive, it was at Matos's expense anyway! If you saw that car last year, you would have noticed very healthy sponsorship. How bad was that team's internal personnel if they managed to lose that in one year?! If de Ferran can't at least be bothered to run a partial schedule with what he had left, then he has no idea what he's doing and no idea what would be best for the sport.

Bourdais will get to drive one of the Dale Coyne cars on a partial basis (conflicts with his sportscar program with Pug) in all likelihood alongside Martin Plowman and Alex Lloyd. Paul Tracy would be fun to see run, but it doesn't look likely. I really don't think Dan Wheldon has a place in the IRL anymore. Mario Moraes causes so many stupid wrecks you'd think his real last name was Sato. Ana Beatriz's problem is financial backing, and I really would like to see Junquiera even though I think he's past his prime.

JK Vernay's problem is that he doesn't have enough backing to land a drive, and seeing how highly European motorsport looks upon IndyCar (:roll:) I doubt Vernay has a realistic shot of anything except endurance racing, which is pretty much career death.

A major underlying problem here is that typically American companies don't throw much money into motorsport sponsorship other than F1 or NASCAR. They're busy wasting it on American politics and on silly stick and ball games.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 03 Mar 2011, 10:16

IRL reads Bernie Ecclestone's book of daft ideas. The end result is this.

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 03 Mar 2011, 12:27

Wizzie wrote:IRL reads Bernie Ecclestone's book of daft ideas. The end result is this.

Are they that desperate in IndyCar?

P_Friesacher · Post by **P_Friesacher** » 03 Mar 2011, 13:44

What is so much worse about this than a reverse grid they have in several of respectable racing championships today? One could argue it's actually fairer, considering everyone has the same chance to get a good grid position instead of people getting an advantage for performing poorly in race one.
Also, let's not forget that only 1/34 of all points available in Indycar races next season will be awarded in that one race. And that is not even including the points drivers can get in qualifying, and all the bonus points to be gained in the Indy 500's different points system.

nome66 · Post by **nome66** » 03 Mar 2011, 21:47

i noticed no one mentioned Mansell for vegas, so i will.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 04 Mar 2011, 00:08

P_Friesacher wrote:One could argue it's actually fairer, considering everyone has the same chance to get a good grid position instead of people getting an advantage for performing poorly in race one.

That's the problem. Do I have to remind you of the existance of Milka Duno and an organisation called KV Racing? I only see it ending in the mother and father of all big accidents.

P_Friesacher · Post by **P_Friesacher** » 04 Mar 2011, 02:05

Wizzie wrote:
P_Friesacher wrote:One could argue it's actually fairer, considering everyone has the same chance to get a good grid position instead of people getting an advantage for performing poorly in race one.

That's the problem. Do I have to remind you of the existance of Milka Duno and an organisation called KV Racing? I only see it ending in the mother and father of all big accidents.

That, admittedly, is true.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 04 Mar 2011, 08:57

P_Friesacher wrote:
Wizzie wrote:
P_Friesacher wrote:One could argue it's actually fairer, considering everyone has the same chance to get a good grid position instead of people getting an advantage for performing poorly in race one.

That's the problem. Do I have to remind you of the existance of Milka Duno and an organisation called KV Racing? I only see it ending in the mother and father of all big accidents.

That, admittedly, is true.

Milka Duno for the Pole!

Cynon · Post by **Cynon** » 04 Mar 2011, 09:03

DanielPT wrote:
Wizzie wrote:IRL reads Bernie Ecclestone's book of daft ideas. The end result is this.

Are they that desperate in IndyCar?

No, it's just that the starting lineup on ovals like that means virtually NOTHING. If you have a fast car, you can win from dead last on the grid easily. I'd be amazed if it hasn't happened before. It certainly has happened in NASCAR plenty of times...

I may also point out that I don't think Milka Duno is getting a full-time seat because even though she has some big Citgo bucks, nobody wants to hire a driver that is so dreadfully slow they are universally reviled among the entire IRL field and are in legitimate risk of getting parked by IndyCar for being too shite.

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 04 Mar 2011, 12:13

Cynon wrote:
DanielPT wrote:
Wizzie wrote:IRL reads Bernie Ecclestone's book of daft ideas. The end result is this.

Are they that desperate in IndyCar?

No, it's just that the starting lineup on ovals like that means virtually NOTHING. If you have a fast car, you can win from dead last on the grid easily. I'd be amazed if it hasn't happened before. It certainly has happened in NASCAR plenty of times...

So, if I am correct, you are implying that qualifying, on ovals, is just a waste of time and money. So why they haven't done anything like this before? And replace qualifying with a sprint race?

Shizuka · Post by **Shizuka** » 07 Mar 2011, 20:59

dr-baker wrote:Milka Duno for the Pole!

If she EVER gets a POLE in that serie, I'm going to go to the university one day with a gasmask on my face.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 08 Mar 2011, 17:57

Shizuka wrote:
dr-baker wrote:Milka Duno for the Pole!

If she EVER gets a POLE in that serie, I'm going to go to the university one day with a gasmask on my face.

Got access to a gas mask? The lottery grid positions at Texas makes it possible (albeit impossible elsewhere...).

JohnMLTX · Post by **JohnMLTX** » 08 Mar 2011, 18:02

Wizzie wrote:That's the problem. Do I have to remind you of the existance of Milka Duno and an organisation called KV Racing? I only see it ending in the mother and father of all big accidents.

I think you guys are forgetting that when Sato WASN'T slamming the 5 car into the wall, he was actually running quite well. See Kansas, where he ran as high as 3rd, for instance. I honestly think that, hypothetically, he gets pole at the 2nd Texas race, and he's managed to keep his car in one piece, he could win it.

And, who's to say he can't qualify near the front next year? He's proven to be quick in qualifying, too.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 08 Mar 2011, 18:07

JohnMLTX wrote: I honestly think that, hypothetically, he gets pole at the 2nd Texas race, and he's managed to keep his car in one piece, he could win it.

And of course, hypothetically, Milka Duno could start right alongside him, and ruin his chance of keeping his car in one piece.

Shizuka · Post by **Shizuka** » 08 Mar 2011, 19:13

dr-baker wrote:Got access to a gas mask? The lottery grid positions at Texas makes it possible (albeit impossible elsewhere...).

Yeah, I have one. And... I don't think Ms. Donuts can get a pole even that way!

nome66 · Post by **nome66** » 08 Mar 2011, 19:42

so mansell....anyone?

Cynon · Post by **Cynon** » 08 Mar 2011, 23:02

nome66 wrote:so mansell....anyone?

Only if he was guaranteed a Ganassi car that was 5 mph faster than the rest of the field.