Grand Prix Rejects

I have to agree with Captain here, pitpass in one very unreliable source of information.

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:Don't worry, I'm sure your complaining on various topics, such as people who dislike Vettel, is a source of annoyance for other people too. That aside, I have to agree with you here - I'm not sure that random attack was entirely called for, especially considering that the article seemed pretty informative to me.

Actually, I stopped complaining about people disliking Vettel the moment he won the championship. So yeah, that is SO 2010

Is this the wrong moment to mention I'm an admin over at Pitpass?...

When Virgin started, their "we can do it, just watch us go!" PR-spin overhyped everything- especially Branson, and now they're barely even saying anything because they know they're hitting the ceiling in terms of resources.

I understand why you need to be positive to keep sponsors onside, but why do so many new F1 teams who barely have enough money to get on the grid think they'll be anywhere except right at the back?

Not that I don't wish them well- I hope in the future most F1 cars are designed this way on a fixed budget and time schedule.

CFD can be the future and will be, but it will take time and Im just wondering maybe Virgin sponsor wont stay on too long coping with bad results.

Just spotted this on Autosport:



Hah!

billy wrote:Just spotted this on Autosport:



Hah!

Are they trying to say that prior to this their car couldn't turn a corner?

Jeroen Krautmeir wrote:

billy wrote:Just spotted this on Autosport:



Hah!

Are they trying to say that prior to this their car couldn't turn a corner?

Perhaps they doubted they could successfully deal with turn 8!

Jeroen Krautmeir wrote:

New front wing? And nose?

thought it was rear wing floor new ebd aswell

Let me see If I understood this right... Virgin brought a massive update to Turkey and now they are, herrrmmmm, in "languished some way off even Hispania's pace" (from autosport). That is most certainly not encouraging...

I think they just haven't optimized everything yet. I mean, they changed almost everything. That will have a big impact on the car.

Peter wrote:I mean, they changed almost everything.

Weird things can happen, when you do that.

Just before qualifying and they don't look any faster than Hispania. They said they would gain 2 secs a lap... did they mean 0.2 secs?

Ferrim wrote:Just before qualifying and they don't look any faster than Hispania. They said they would gain 2 secs a lap... did they mean 0.2 secs?

That is more likely, It is not the first time that a team upgrades and the car is actually slower. It happened last year with McLaren for instance. (At least I think it was last year)

I still don't think it was a waste of time. They improved since they are closer to Lotus. The problem is that HRT also improved...

I know most of you will think this is an over-reaction, but will Virgin be around by the end of say 2012? Ok, this package may take some time to be optimised, but let's say they don't make great strides forward, will they really want to stick around for long if they are fighting with the Hispanias? It surely can't help having the team so divided, what with the owners, team managers (Manor) and aerodynamists (Wirth Research) all being separate? Surely that just encourages finger pointing when things go wrong.

Things are already looking down on a commercial side as well as Branson seems to be taking a step back from the team and Marussia are getting more involved. Marussia seem to me to be very similar to Spyker, a small sports car company in a country not renowned for its automotive industry, but little capability to run an F1 team. It wouldn't surprise me if, like Spyker, they don't stick around for long and start making a quick buck off of the exposure that they got from F1 (seriously, who aside from Gran Turismo players had heard of the C8 Laviotte before Spyker came into F1?).

Just my 2 cents. Expecting a hailstorm from a certain AndreaModa...

watka wrote:Just my 2 cents. Expecting a hailstorm from a certain AndreaModa...

Hehe don't worry I'm not DonTirri

I just think they need time to dial in these current updates and see how things go. The BBC did a nice little interview with Graeme Lowdon and Timo Glock before the start of qualifying, apparently they couldn't run the new exhaust system because of some issues with cracks in the pipes which need to be fixed for Spain. Despite that they said even from when they tried it in the wet FP1 they could tell there was more downforce on the rear so they're clearly going somewhere.

As for the bigger picture though, I seem to recall when Marussia steped up their involvment this season that it was mentioned that the team would have its future secured until 2014 I think. Of course whether there's any truth in that is another story, and I'm sure when Spyker came in and took over Midland they had bigger aspirations for the future rather than what they actually saw out. I imagine that a lot of it will depend on the success of this season. I said before about Timo's motivation and it has to be said his performance today answered none of the questions hanging over him. D'Ambrosio put in another great performance for a rookie and has run at Timo's pace almost all weekend, so it wouldn't surprise me if Timo walked at the end of the year. Perhaps another point-less season will leave the team high and dry, I'd imagine Richard Branson's patience isn't going to last forever.

I support the team, no doubt about that, but I'm not stupid or blinded by fanboyism, I can see they're struggling and I too question how long they'll last. Hopefully the updates when they're finally properly dialled in will do something for their performance. God knows they need it!

AndreaModa wrote:

watka wrote:Just my 2 cents. Expecting a hailstorm from a certain AndreaModa...

Hehe don't worry I'm not DonTirri

OI! What's that supposed to mean!

watka wrote:seriously, who aside from Gran Turismo players had heard of the C8 Laviotte before Spyker came into F1?

I did. At least, I knew of Spyker because the C8 had been od Top Gear and in at least one automotive magazine I'd been reading. And my reaction to Spyker trying to run an F1 team was repeated a few years later when they took over Saab: "hang on... they're doing what?"

I don't remember ever playing Gran Turismo in my life.

dinizintheoven wrote:

watka wrote:seriously, who aside from Gran Turismo players had heard of the C8 Laviotte before Spyker came into F1?

I did. At least, I knew of Spyker because the C8 had been od Top Gear and in at least one automotive magazine I'd been reading. And my reaction to Spyker trying to run an F1 team was repeated a few years later when they took over Saab: "hang on... they're doing what?"

I don't remember ever playing Gran Turismo in my life.

people who follewed the GT2 category in le mans used to know the increasingly competetive spyker C8's, until the F1 project, then the GT2 car started to fall behind again, was sold to some swiss team (with reject chiesa as a driver), and then to the russians
probably that being able to be competitive against porsche and ferrari give them the thought that they could do more. It failed obviously. Instead it think they just should have made a GT1 car back then, that would have been a better start, and than slowly climb up the ladder (lmp2, than lmp1, and when they got that right, it should be time for F1)

This wrote:People who follewed the GT2 category in le mans used to know the increasingly competetive spyker C8's, until the F1 project, then the GT2 car started to fall behind again, was sold to some swiss team (with reject chiesa as a driver), and then to the russians
probably that being able to be competitive against porsche and ferrari give them the thought that they could do more. It failed obviously. Instead it think they just should have made a GT1 car back then, that would have been a better start, and than slowly climb up the ladder (lmp2, than lmp1, and when they got that right, it should be time for F1)

Partly. I certainly knew Spyker from their GT programme, and as much as I loved the car I'm not sure i'd ever have attached the word 'competitive' to it. I'd certainly always considered them a reject-equivalent GT operation before going into F1, which made their decision to go into F1 so much more baffling.

As for Virgin's long-term prospects, I can see 2013 being the real make-or-break. If the 2012 car's a dog too, It seems more likely they'd ditch Wirth (if they haven't already) and take a hope the 2013 changes shake things up enough to bring them into contention. If you've survived to the end of 2012, it makes sense to at least give 2013 a shot (basically, don't do a Honda), but if they're still struggling to anything like the same extent that would probably be their last year.

Jordan192 wrote:

This wrote:People who follewed the GT2 category in le mans used to know the increasingly competetive spyker C8's, until the F1 project, then the GT2 car started to fall behind again, was sold to some swiss team (with reject chiesa as a driver), and then to the russians
probably that being able to be competitive against porsche and ferrari give them the thought that they could do more. It failed obviously. Instead it think they just should have made a GT1 car back then, that would have been a better start, and than slowly climb up the ladder (lmp2, than lmp1, and when they got that right, it should be time for F1)

Partly. I certainly knew Spyker from their GT programme, and as much as I loved the car I'm not sure i'd ever have attached the word 'competitive' to it. I'd certainly always considered them a reject-equivalent GT operation before going into F1, which made their decision to go into F1 so much more baffling.

You're right. I raced against them and they were always way off the pace. The relied on reliability to get a result, but weren't as lucky as the LNT Panoz at Le Mans in 2007 where they won the GT2 class while being ridiculously slow. The Spykers always sounded nice, though.

Latest news from team leader Glock and true to form he's a little pessimistic!

Glock concerned about Virgin's form

Also interesting is the speculation that the technical side is about to be overhauled. That would make Virgin the second team to do so in 2011 after Williams, and I suppose it's hardly surprising. What will be interesting to see is where Nick Wirth is left in all of this. We know that Williams are shedding key personnel at the end of the year, perhaps some may move up the M40 to Banbury to work for Wirth and Virgin? Could anyone see Sam Michael in a prominent position, potentially even replacing Wirth as the main man on the technical side? Pat Symonds also is currently working as an advisor to the team and I think will be stepping up his involvement over the year as the time nears when his ban ends on working in the sport. There's plenty of potential there to put together a much stronger technical team than the one Virgin currently has, so maybe that's what the top brass have in mind?

Lots of questions, and as ever it's all only speculation, but I don't think the team can carry on the way they are with no changes to the team setup. I just hope that they get some decent dry running at Barcelona and get the upgrades dialled in.

AndreaModa wrote:Latest news from team leader Glock and true to form he's a little pessimistic!

Glock concerned about Virgin's form

Also interesting is the speculation that the technical side is about to be overhauled. That would make Virgin the second team to do so in 2011 after Williams, and I suppose it's hardly surprising. What will be interesting to see is where Nick Wirth is left in all of this. We know that Williams are shedding key personnel at the end of the year, perhaps some may move up the M40 to Banbury to work for Wirth and Virgin? Could anyone see Sam Michael in a prominent position, potentially even replacing Wirth as the main man on the technical side? Pat Symonds also is currently working as an advisor to the team and I think will be stepping up his involvement over the year as the time nears when his ban ends on working in the sport. There's plenty of potential there to put together a much stronger technical team than the one Virgin currently has, so maybe that's what the top brass have in mind?

Lots of questions, and as ever it's all only speculation, but I don't think the team can carry on the way they are with no changes to the team setup. I just hope that they get some decent dry running at Barcelona and get the upgrades dialled in.

The way that they have described what will happen to Wirth - "a change in responsibilities" - sounds strongly like a euphemism for being sidelined, or sacked altogether. The lack of success of the upgrade package he'd planned for Turkey won't help, including the new floor and exhaust system which was meant to be fitted to Glock's car, but had to be abandoned due to a lack of set up time and fabrication issues.

Admittedly, it does seem that there are issues beyond Wirth's control - the relatively small budget, for example (reputedly little higher than last year, and possibly even behind HRT) will not be helping matters. Even so, Wirth has essentially turned out a VR-01 with better reliability and a few small updates - it's nothing like the paradigm shift that the T128 is compared to its predecessor, the T127. And it looks like the current management are worried about that - not only that their sponsors might bail, but so might their drivers (especially Glock, who, unsurprisingly, looks increasingly unhappy and demotivated).

It's true that the departure of key staff from Williams could prove to be a bonus for Virgin Racing, if - and it is a big if - they can attract them to their team. Sam Michael might have his critics, but he is still hugely respected throughout the paddock for his management skills, and it sounds as if Williams aren't that keen to see him go. Tomlinson, Williams's head of aerodynamics, is also on the market - and no doubt there are a fair few designers and managers further down the chain who might be prepared to move across if they can work with Tomlinson and Michael.
On the other hand, they'll need to make them a good offer, because no doubt there must be several other teams who are chasing them - there will probably be several midfield teams talking to Sam Michael, and Tomlinson must be in touch with a few other teams too. We've seen how Sauber went on an aggressive recruitment drive last year, hiring James Key (which looks like an astute move), and now have the sponsorship to afford somebody like Michael. Team Lotus, meanwhile, must be interested too - they've shown that they are prepared to spend money on good managers and designers (and so far their results show that was a wise decision), so they might be tempted to put an offer in too.

Nick Wirth has gone home. One down, two to go for the hattrick

Wizzie wrote:Nick Wirth has gone home. One down, two to go for the hattrick

Sounds like Simtek all over again....

GroupLotusRenault wrote:

Wizzie wrote:Nick Wirth has gone home. One down, two to go for the hattrick

Sounds like Simtek all over again....

Not really. I was just implying that Colin Kolles and Rupert Murdoch should both go home.

I would include Bernie Ecclestone there as well. Let's go for the poker!

Ferrim wrote:I would include Bernie Ecclestone there as well. Let's go for the poker!

And Danny Bahar to complete the full house.

So they drop Wirth and the much talked CFD-only model. The question is, were they ahead of their time?

Virgin now searches for a technology partner (McLaren looking likely) and a new technical base which is said to be the one in Leafield that was used by Arrows and SUPA AGURI. I like this. There is plenty of potential over there.

I wonder what AndreaModa has to say about all of this.

Jordan192 wrote:Virgin parts company with Wirth

I guess that it was inevitable; whilst the VR-01 was kind of what you would expect for a first effort, the MVR-02 hasn't moved things on significantly from there. Sure, the car has improved significantly in terms of reliability, especially compared to last year, and mechanically the car seems to have made a few improvements - but that's no good when aerodynamic development seems to have stagnated. The upgrade packages coming for the car are all well and good, but much of what has been added is what some cynically say should have been present on the car much earlier - and several of the parts (including the blown diffuser in particular), have been especially problematic, to the extent that they've not been able to run it for several races now.

That said, whilst I do think that Wirth has underperformed somewhat, especially since his designs seem far too conservative, I do think that there are other problems within the team. The team has been sticking with Wirth and his pure CFD design, along with the Xtrac transmission, seemingly because it was the cheapest thing to do - and that is because the team simply doesn't have a big enough budget. Sure, fundraising is hard in the current economic environment, but they've still got one of the smallest budgets in the sport, possibly the smallest (I've seen some figures that suggest HRT has a fractionally bigger budget, thanks mostly to Karthikeyan and the sponsorship he brought to the team).
Symonds can, I am sure, help streamline the team and perhaps move them towards a more aggressive development program - and I think that he really does have to target most of the teams resources to 2012, and simply bring in the already agreed updates for the rest of the season - but I think that what is really needed is a fresh injection of funding, not just changing the design department. Wirth was part of the problem, but to a certain extent you feel that he is also being made into a bit of a scapegoat for some of the internal problems within the team too.

DanielPT wrote:So they drop Wirth and the much talked CFD-only model. The question is, were they ahead of their time?

Virgin now searches for a technology partner (McLaren looking likely) and a new technical base which is said to be the one in Leafield that was used by Arrows and SUPA AGURI. I like this. There is plenty of potential over there.

Perhaps - CFD is very powerful when used well, and can model situations that a wind tunnel cannot easily, or simply cannot, do (such as exhaust gas flow, transient flows and so on), and as many teams have shown us over the past five or so years (Honda, Renault, Williams and now Ferrari), wind tunnels themselves can produced flawed data if your calibration is incorrect. However, the age old question is going to be validation of your CFD model - in other words, having a way of checking that the behaviour of your virtual model ties up closely with real world results.
There, I think that Virgin Racing have fallen down - without a wind tunnel, and lacking the sophisticated test equipment that the major outfits like McLaren have (remember all those flow measuring devices we saw in the pre-season testing), how are you going to validate your models?

For the future of CFD as the primary design tool in F1 I am a little sad. I hope in future CFD is used exclusively, to help cut costs and bring new teams into the sport on a more level playing field with the rest. Virgin have proved you can build a safe (eventually), fast (speaking generally) race car using it and good on them.

For Virgin, this decision is clearly the right one. I'm sure they'll soon be calling themselves Marussia or whatever- how well is the new Russian team going to be financed, and will we ever see Petrov driving for them?

mario wrote:

Jordan192 wrote:Virgin parts company with Wirth

DanielPT wrote:So they drop Wirth and the much talked CFD-only model. The question is, were they ahead of their time?

Virgin now searches for a technology partner (McLaren looking likely) and a new technical base which is said to be the one in Leafield that was used by Arrows and SUPA AGURI. I like this. There is plenty of potential over there.

Perhaps - CFD is very powerful when used well, and can model situations that a wind tunnel cannot easily, or simply cannot, do (such as exhaust gas flow, transient flows and so on), and as many teams have shown us over the past five or so years (Honda, Renault, Williams and now Ferrari), wind tunnels themselves can produced flawed data if your calibration is incorrect. However, the age old question is going to be validation of your CFD model - in other words, having a way of checking that the behaviour of your virtual model ties up closely with real world results.
There, I think that Virgin Racing have fallen down - without a wind tunnel, and lacking the sophisticated test equipment that the major outfits like McLaren have (remember all those flow measuring devices we saw in the pre-season testing), how are you going to validate your models?

CFD is a future of a kind system which will take over windtunnels soon as its much cheaper to run and use. However I am not sure if a small outfit like Virgin are capabile of running it 100% unless a big team like Mclaren (very unlikey this) dont use a windtunnel and just use CFD.

GroupLotusRenault wrote:

mario wrote:

Jordan192 wrote:Virgin parts company with Wirth

DanielPT wrote:So they drop Wirth and the much talked CFD-only model. The question is, were they ahead of their time?

Virgin now searches for a technology partner (McLaren looking likely) and a new technical base which is said to be the one in Leafield that was used by Arrows and SUPA AGURI. I like this. There is plenty of potential over there.

Perhaps - CFD is very powerful when used well, and can model situations that a wind tunnel cannot easily, or simply cannot, do (such as exhaust gas flow, transient flows and so on), and as many teams have shown us over the past five or so years (Honda, Renault, Williams and now Ferrari), wind tunnels themselves can produced flawed data if your calibration is incorrect. However, the age old question is going to be validation of your CFD model - in other words, having a way of checking that the behaviour of your virtual model ties up closely with real world results.
There, I think that Virgin Racing have fallen down - without a wind tunnel, and lacking the sophisticated test equipment that the major outfits like McLaren have (remember all those flow measuring devices we saw in the pre-season testing), how are you going to validate your models?

CFD is a future of a kind system which will take over windtunnels soon as its much cheaper to run and use. However I am not sure if a small outfit like Virgin are capabile of running it 100% unless a big team like Mclaren (very unlikey this) dont use a windtunnel and just use CFD.

Whilst I do not rule out CFD becoming the primary testing method in the longer term, due to ever tighter resource restrictions, I'm not sure if wind tunnels will be totally phased out for some time yet - probably in part because some teams will think "better the devil you know". I think that there would be some disquiet, especially from the older engineers who may be more used to wind tunnel testing, about placing such a heavy emphasis on what is ultimately a "black box" system (i.e. you cannot see how the software comes up with those results, only the data inputs and the final results) without a means of verifying those results. Wind tunnels have the psychologically important factor that you can visualise the flow, and see what is happening - it may not be producing the right results, but at least it looks like it is producing the right results.

As I've said before, CFD does have major advantages in some areas compared to wind tunnel testing, and it is true that in some instances CFD does produce good results - take, for example, BMW-Sauber. The F1.07 and F1.08 were relatively competitive cars, both of which took advantage of the significantly increased CFD capabilities that BMW-Sauber had, once BMW upgraded Sauber's computer facilities - and it's partially down to their intensive CFD program that the F1.08 featured a particularly distinctive triple element front wing design.
That said, to begin with that front wing design did prove to be troublesome on track - it was rumoured to suffer from flow separation problems at medium speed, causing sudden changes in front end grip and aero balance, requiring a lot of on track testing before finally getting the front wing design to work properly.

mario wrote:

GroupLotusRenault wrote:

mario wrote:Perhaps - CFD is very powerful when used well, and can model situations that a wind tunnel cannot easily, or simply cannot, do (such as exhaust gas flow, transient flows and so on), and as many teams have shown us over the past five or so years (Honda, Renault, Williams and now Ferrari), wind tunnels themselves can produced flawed data if your calibration is incorrect. However, the age old question is going to be validation of your CFD model - in other words, having a way of checking that the behaviour of your virtual model ties up closely with real world results.
There, I think that Virgin Racing have fallen down - without a wind tunnel, and lacking the sophisticated test equipment that the major outfits like McLaren have (remember all those flow measuring devices we saw in the pre-season testing), how are you going to validate your models?

CFD is a future of a kind system which will take over windtunnels soon as its much cheaper to run and use. However I am not sure if a small outfit like Virgin are capabile of running it 100% unless a big team like Mclaren (very unlikey this) dont use a windtunnel and just use CFD.

Whilst I do not rule out CFD becoming the primary testing method in the longer term, due to ever tighter resource restrictions, I'm not sure if wind tunnels will be totally phased out for some time yet - probably in part because some teams will think "better the devil you know". I think that there would be some disquiet, especially from the older engineers who may be more used to wind tunnel testing, about placing such a heavy emphasis on what is ultimately a "black box" system (i.e. you cannot see how the software comes up with those results, only the data inputs and the final results) without a means of verifying those results. Wind tunnels have the psychologically important factor that you can visualise the flow, and see what is happening - it may not be producing the right results, but at least it looks like it is producing the right results.

As I've said before, CFD does have major advantages in some areas compared to wind tunnel testing, and it is true that in some instances CFD does produce good results - take, for example, BMW-Sauber. The F1.07 and F1.08 were relatively competitive cars, both of which took advantage of the significantly increased CFD capabilities that BMW-Sauber had, once BMW upgraded Sauber's computer facilities - and it's partially down to their intensive CFD program that the F1.08 featured a particularly distinctive triple element front wing design.
That said, to begin with that front wing design did prove to be troublesome on track - it was rumoured to suffer from flow separation problems at medium speed, causing sudden changes in front end grip and aero balance, requiring a lot of on track testing before finally getting the front wing design to work properly.

I believe that this is more a question of experience. While today the models may behave differently than reality they will be thoroughly refined during its use by comparing real results with CFD results and studying ways to improve models and algorithms. It is no way a definite technology. Obviously having a wind tunnel to check the validity of CFD results is today's way and, for the looks of it, will still be for some time. Wirth and co needed time, which is a very valuable resource in F1 these days since everything happens so fast. He didn't delivered and paid for it. Perhaps Wirth under-evaluated his task or he though it didn't took this much time to improve his approach results. Perhaps if testing wasn't so restricted they could've have made it. Given time CFD-only will probably become the way but now it maybe later rather than sooner since after this failure people won't dare to venture themselves along this path.

The big problem with CFD is the correlation between CFD results and real results. CFD is a simulation, so inherently it is an approximation of reality and is not accurate, so the important thing is to interpret the CFD results and know how they can relate to real results, usually through an equivalency formula.
The major value of CFD is the relative speed of it when the intention is to compare different solutions. Instead of having to design and build a number of different parts with slight variations and install them on a windtunnel model, you can design the parts in CAD and transfer them directly on the CAD model of the completed car and run it through the CFD program.
I have had some experience of CFD, both in full- and partial-car simulations (some years ago, when computing power wasn't anywhere near what it is now and using commercial software - Fluent) and in engine simulations (this recently, but using a custom-designed proprietary system) and I can assure you that no one takes CFD results completely at face value. Also, keep in mind that even windtunnel testing cannot be taken as fact, because there are a lot of variables with it as well, as Ferrari found out this year and many other teams have found out in the past (Jaguar in 2001 springs to mind). The problem with windtunnels is that you are testing a scale model, albeit a large scale model, that does not necessarily correlate with the full-size car (the Reynolds number issue) and the controlled conditions of the windtunnel.

I still think that the problem at Virgin is lack of finance for both conception and development of the car. The MVR-02 was a big advance over the VR-01, but perhaps not as large as was believed, but the competition has made an advance at least as large, if not larger. There weren't enough resources (not just money) to conceive, design and manufacture the MVR-02 as well as was desired, and there aren't enough resources to develop it.

The rumoured McLaren link-up is interesting. It didn't work out too well at Force India, mostly due to personnel issues, but maybe it can be made to work with Virgin.
It would be awesome to see Formtech involved with Virgin next year, but we'll have to see if that is on the cards.