Grand Prix Rejects

Seriously ibsey, stop. Zanardi is a hero, his 1999 travails are a footnote.

shinji wrote:Seriously ibsey, stop. Zanardi is a hero, his 1999 travails are a footnote.

He might be a hero. But he wasn't perfect. 1999 still remains in his records, and will forever be a stain there. Just like 2010 and 2011 will be in Schumachers, or 95 in Mansells.

He was about to finish 2nd at the Italian GP, or something, right? What is it with Monza and CART stars?

Technically Roland Ratzenberger counts as a reject... does he?

JeremyMcClean wrote:Technically Roland Ratzenberger counts as a reject... does he?

Nope. Dying during F1 weekends unrejectifies you.

Klon wrote:

JeremyMcClean wrote:Technically Roland Ratzenberger counts as a reject... does he?

Nope. Dying during F1 weekends unrejectifies you.

He wasn't going to be that much promising to begin with anyway.

Phoenix wrote:

Klon wrote:

JeremyMcClean wrote:Technically Roland Ratzenberger counts as a reject... does he?

Nope. Dying during F1 weekends unrejectifies you.

He wasn't going to be that much promising to begin with anyway.

That is one thing which we shall never know.

Seeing Mansell's success, i think Mike andretti would have been great, having his CART experience. maybe it was pressure, or not going to Europe until days before a race, that held him back. Something i found funny was that in CART racing, his biggest opponent was the Malboro-Penske team, and in F1 he drove a Malboro-Mclaren. that's gotta mess a guy's head sometimes.
CART team manager: "Mike, you gotta block Fittipaldi!"
Mike: "But I thought he was our Brazilian!"

Michael Andretti never took F1 seriously enough, but he had the ability to do well. Plus, he was often harmstrung with troubles hitting his car, as well as having a bit of a red mist attitude during races at certain times, like when he took out JJ Lehto at the European GP when he was 4th.

Alan McNish, Alex Zanardi and of course Justin Wilson.
All of which had huge potential. Zanardi even beat Michael Schumacher in an F1 test... but of course no one wants to bring that up... Wilson got a brief change with Minardi... but that whole experience was a joke and not a true test to his abilities. As for McNish... either he simply wanted to stay out of the drama that is F1 or he's been seriously over looked.

I'm not sure I buy this entire "he was faster than X at a F1 test, so he must've had the potential to be a F1 star" line of thinking. First of all, testing has too many variables to make proper conclusions about talent unless you have all the data, which we do not have. Second, there have been plenty of F1 drivers that initially impressed in testing, only to turn out to be disappointing. If I remember correctly, Takuma Sato held the Barcelona testing track record for many years, but though he is a favorite of mine, he certainly wasn't F1 champion material. (Though in Sato's case, maybe if he started karting before the age of 19................)

Norberto Fontana.

In the lower formulae he was extremely highly rated, he beat Ralf Schumi, Trulli and Wurz amongst others in F3. I have always thought that he should have been given a better chance at Sauber in 1997 (losing out on a seat to Larini must hurt), and at that time he had only 1 F3000 start. If he could have had a full season in F3000 in '96, and a full season Sauber drive in '97, who knows how succesful he may have been.

LionZoo wrote:I'm not sure I buy this entire "he was faster than X at a F1 test, so he must've had the potential to be a F1 star" line of thinking. First of all, testing has too many variables to make proper conclusions about talent unless you have all the data, which we do not have. Second, there have been plenty of F1 drivers that initially impressed in testing, only to turn out to be disappointing. If I remember correctly, Takuma Sato held the Barcelona testing track record for many years, but though he is a favorite of mine, he certainly wasn't F1 champion material. (Though in Sato's case, maybe if he started karting before the age of 19................)

Completely agree. I think it is one thing to set a fast lap during a test session, where conditions might have been favourable (i.e. 'happy hour'), you might have all day to set that time, & there is little pressure on the driver.

Where as it is another thing to, consistiently perform during a race weekend; where you have to 'deliver' at certain key moments, typically under exterme pressure & usually having to deal with other factors (i.e. traffic, car not set-up 100% to their liking, press, weather, etc).

I think I should have mentioned that Zanardi was faster than Schumacher over a race distance as the test was a back-to-back race simulation.

ibsey wrote:Just had another thought, regarding Zanardi's inability to adapt to F1 cars.

Micheal Andretti (who had grown up in Indy racing) was actually more sucessful in F1, than Zanardi. Yes, Andretti, had a slightly better car than Zanardi (not all that much better though). But then Andretti, didn't have a full season, yet he still got a podium. Yet Zanardi failed to score any points for Williams whatsoever.

So to my mind that is further evidence that Zanardi had more issues (i.e. wrong attitude & lack of confidence), than just struggling to adapt to F1 cars alone.

Michael Andretti was a far better driver than Alex Zanardi but often times his luck was worse than Mark Webber's -- otherwise he would have had more than just one CART title and probably an extra 10 wins or so. Andretti would have done wonders in F1 but his commuting attitude kept him from success -- just as Teo Fabi's attitude of commuting to each CART race and living in Italy kept him from being any more than an anonymous midfielder in the early 1990s.

Michael Andretti could qualify a car 20th and still win the race, but while Zanardi was brilliant when he was way out in the lead, most of the time he was further back in the field he made silly errors. His return to CART wasn't exactly great either in 2001 (an amateurish first race back, a couple other messy races, but he still was on pace of teammate Tony Kanaan), until his very last race, which a lot of people forget that, had he not crashed, he probably would have won!

i think Sebastien Bordais may have been good, again having gobs of open wheel experience, and winning the Champ Car uuhh... championship more than once.
Plus, he won Le Mans and lives there. he's got GP racing in his blood.
i don't understand why he didn't do well on the Torro Rosso team. then he came back to Indy Car racing and is doing quite well..... other than Long Beach of course.

I think David Brabham should also get a mention here, especially considering how successful he was in sportscars after F1. Just learnt in 1989, he took the F3 Championship title, and also won the Macau Grand Prix - beating Michael Schumacher in the process. Also in 1994, IMO he did a remarkable job for Simtek, bearing in mind that they were a new F1 team in 1994.

Not only did he race on the Sunday at Imola 1994 (after Ratzenberger tragic accident only a day earlier). But he also seemed to gel the team following Andrea Montermini crash in Spain. I think (from memory) he out-qualified Eric Bernard's Ligier, at one race in 1994.

Does anyone know, whether it was David's own choice not to continue in F1 after 1994?

ibsey wrote:Does anyone know, whether it was David's own choice not to continue in F1 after 1994?

If I remember correctly, the article on Simtek on this site states that David wanted to continue on in 1995, but had been offered a very, very good deal to race a touring/sports car of some sort, and knowing Simteks financial position, he decided to not do 1995 with them.

He had an offer to drive a works BMW in the ETCC. Considering his other choice was to drive for Simtek, it was a no-brainer. And his 1990 season was pretty poor, with a symmetrical race-DNQ-race-DNQ.

Bernd Schneider

redbulljack14 wrote:Bernd Schneider

Good call.

Been reading up on Mike Thackwell & Tom Brise, who also seem like prime candiatates.

Moisés Solana anyone? He could have scored points at the Mexican GPs he contested in 1963 (his first ever), 1965 and 1967. He was good enough to be given works Lotus cars and, crucially, Ferrari offered him to compete with them in F2, with some F1 races thrown in for good measure, in 1968. But he wasn't willing to give up his succesful jai-alai career if it wasn't for a full F1 drive, but who knows if he accepted Ferrari's offer? That, and the fact that, being a superstitious person, after being put in the same room Ricardo Rodríguez used to stay in, he felt uneasy.

Phoenix wrote:Moisés Solana anyone? He could have scored points at the Mexican GPs he contested in 1963 (his first ever), 1965 and 1967. He was good enough to be given works Lotus cars and, crucially, Ferrari offered him to compete with them in F2, with some F1 races thrown in for good measure, in 1968. But he wasn't willing to give up his succesful jai-alai career if it wasn't for a full F1 drive, but who knows if he accepted Ferrari's offer? That, and the fact that, being a superstitious person, after being put in the same room Ricardo Rodríguez used to stay in, he felt uneasy.

Well, the article does suggest that Solana was very talented, and could have had a successful career if he had been prepared to leave Mexico and participate in the European racing scene. It's worth noting that Solana attracted the attention of others, too - Forix, when talking about Honda's victory in the 1965 Mexican GP, point out that one eyewitness claimed that Solana was offered the chance to drive Ronnei Bucknum's Honda RA272, but turned it down because he was unconvinced by the unusual appearance of the RA272. http://forix.autosport.com/8w/honda.html

Although he just escaped Rejectdom, another person would be his compatriot, Ricardo Rodriguez. His brother Pedro was considered to be a great driver in his own right, being extremely versatile and an excellent wet weather driver (probably the best of his era, and considering the high quality of his rivals, that says a lot about him). That said, Ricardo was considered to be even faster, and just as versatile - hell, Ricardo competed at Le Mans when just 17, and in 1960 became the youngest podium finisher (barely 18) at Le Mans when his team finished 2nd.
In his first Grand Prix - with no lesser a team than Ferrari - at the 1961 Italian GP, he qualified in 2nd place, and fought with Phil Hill and Ginther for the lead of the race, before retiring from 3rd place with a failed fuel pump. The fact that he was, essentially, a racing novice, and yet able to score points (4th in the 1962 Belgian GP, and 6th at the German GP, both challenging tracks) whilst slugging it out with the drivers of the day shows that he had great potential.

What about Burti, Does anyone consider him to have been a potenially good driver?

My own personal opinion, had he not suffered his accident at Spa 2001, he might have gone on to have a 'decent' F1 career, perhaps getting a couple of podiums, but I can't see him achieving any more than that.

Just for the sake of it, a comparison between Burti and his teammates.

2000



2001

Luca Badoer deserves to be mentioned here as well. After having won the F3000 title against the likes of Barrichello and Coulthard who went on to win races in F1, he only had backmarker machinery at his disposal and the Ferrari he was put in so late in his career that he probably had mentally prepared himself for retirement, was the worst one since the "double decker" of 1992 that ruined Ivan Capelli's career.

Badoer played a huge part in developing those cars that took Michael Schumacher to his 5 world championship titles. As did Barrichello. So if both Badoer and Barrichello had been allowed to race Schumacher during his title winning years, maybe they each would have gotten a title of their own with Schumacher solely winning three.
But that's not how it turned out.

Romain Grosjean perhaps?

I thought Burti did quite well personally. These days top ten finishes keep you in the sport, and he did so with worse machinery.

jackanderton wrote:Romain Grosjean perhaps?

Grrrrrrjjjjnnnnnnn can still do something though. If he wins the GP2 it might restore his reputation and given a midfield drive. Perhaps with Lotus (assuming they can get to midfield which seems rather likely) replacing Trulli... From there he can go higher if given proper time.

Dan B wrote:Gorgio Pantano. Rather successful in the lower classes but when it came to F1 he did diddly squat.

Absolutely. Incredible kart driver and superb driver in Formula 3 and GP2. I had the opportunity of watching him up close in 2008 when he was GP2 champion, because my mate was his race engineer and I helped for a couple of races.

Pedro Lamy and Anthony Davidson.

Thanks for posting that info Jeroen. I actually thought Burti was slightly more impressive than his results alone suggested. For instance Austria 2000, he had steped into Eddie Irvine seat only on the Saturday FP onwards (thus missed the friday sessions). Also bear in mind he had 2 big shunts shortly before quali (Australia & Monaco) which no doubt impacted his performances those weekends. Also bear in mind a rookie in a troubled team / car is always going too have a hard time getting to grips with F1 (i.e. Button at Benetton in 2001). Nevertheless, as I eluded to earlier, I don't think he would have been 'great', merely 'decent' (i.e. Pedro de la Rosa / Jos Verstappen type ability).

Another name to throw into the mix, Karun Chandok. I sincerely hope he gets another (proper) crack at F1. IMO he was very impressive last year & hopefully he is being lined up to take over Trulli's seat at Lotus. I reckon the lad could be alright?

DanielPT wrote:

jackanderton wrote:Romain Grosjean perhaps?

Grrrrrrjjjjnnnnnnn can still do something though. If he wins the GP2 it might restore his reputation and given a midfield drive. Perhaps with Lotus (assuming they can get to midfield which seems rather likely) replacing Trulli... From there he can go higher if given proper time.

At the moment, though, he is racing in GP2, but the Asian Series, which doesn't seem to have the same prestige as the European Series (presumably because the competition within the European Series is considered to be greater than in the Asian Series).

Still, his stints in other forms of motorsport, such as GT racing, show that he can do well behind the wheel of a decent car, so perhaps in a few years time he might be able to work his way into a backmarker team, and hope to work his way up from there. The only downside is that it might be hard for him to find the funding to break back into the sport - with teams increasingly reliant on driver sponsorship and pay drivers, Grosjean might well be frozen out of the sport.

mario wrote:

DanielPT wrote:

jackanderton wrote:Romain Grosjean perhaps?

Grrrrrrjjjjnnnnnnn can still do something though. If he wins the GP2 it might restore his reputation and given a midfield drive. Perhaps with Lotus (assuming they can get to midfield which seems rather likely) replacing Trulli... From there he can go higher if given proper time.

At the moment, though, he is racing in GP2, but the Asian Series, which doesn't seem to have the same prestige as the European Series (presumably because the competition within the European Series is considered to be greater than in the Asian Series).

Still, his stints in other forms of motorsport, such as GT racing, show that he can do well behind the wheel of a decent car, so perhaps in a few years time he might be able to work his way into a backmarker team, and hope to work his way up from there. The only downside is that it might be hard for him to find the funding to break back into the sport - with teams increasingly reliant on driver sponsorship and pay drivers, Grosjean might well be frozen out of the sport.

It shows his value that he is having good outings in other forms of motorsport. Yet, I still thing this year GP2 Championship is his best bet to return to F1. He is set to do the season with DAMS starting right this weekend in Turkey. And he started rather well posting the second time in GP2 Friday FP having topped the time table for much of the session. He is my favourite bet for this year title with Jules Bianchi being his title rival. I am also curious about Esteban Gutierrez who won GP3 last year. But yes, his main problem is the lack of money backup and being French doesn't help much since France seem to have turned their back on F1 (while going strong in Rally and in Le Mans Series/prototypes).

He's not a reject but how Alexander Wurz didn't pan out is still a mystery to me. What happened to him after 1998?
He performed really well during the three races Gerhard Berger was absent in 1997, scoring a podium in only his third race for Benetton.
Wurz also got a good start to the 1998 season, scoring consistent 4th and 5th place finishes and setting a fastest lap in Argetina. Apparently Ferrari was interested at that time in him.
But come late 1998 onwards Fisichella started to really crash Alex on the timesheets.

JJ Lehto's career should have panned out in a different way than it did. Really a sad story IMO.

Out of the rejects Magnussen and Tuero are very good examples. Marques in a way also.

Not too sure about Wurz, but I think what that idiot Schumacher did to him at Monaco affected him somehow. It was a pretty big shunt.

Benetton wrote:He's not a reject but how Alexander Wurz didn't pan out is still a mystery to me. What happened to him after 1998?
He performed really well during the three races Gerhard Berger was absent in 1997, scoring a podium in only his third race for Benetton.
Wurz also got a good start to the 1998 season, scoring consistent 4th and 5th place finishes and setting a fastest lap in Argetina. Apparently Ferrari was interested at that time in him.
But come late 1998 onwards Fisichella started to really crash Alex on the timesheets.

Wurz & Benetton massively benefited from superior Bridgestone tyres in early 1998 hence his good results. In fact, some people believe that Benetton cheated somewhat because they switched from Goodyear tyres to Bridgestone extermely late in the day for the start of the 1998 season, leading people to suggest that they passed on the Goodyear data to the Bridgestone people (hence their early season adavntage). However Goodyear got their act together after Monaco & M Schumi (a Goodyear runner) won the following 3 races thereafter. Also, it is a little known fact that Fisco suffered from a major road car accident in early 1998, hence the reason he wasn't quite on the pace until mid season.

I personally thought Wurz was a little overrated, because that podium result at Sliverstone 1997 was largely down to retirements of other front runners (i.e. M Schumi, Hakkien, Frentzen etc). Also I don't think the 1997 Benetton was that bad a car, I think both Alesi & Berger were under performing partly because they were disenchanted with all the rumours surrounding Benetton at the time. Having said that, I do think he did show some promise during 1997 & 1998, but appeared to lose confident whenever his teammate beat him. We saw that again, when he was at Williams in 2007.

DanielPT wrote: Grosjean might well be frozen out of the sport.

Don't forget Timo Glock; he used GP2 second time around to get back to F1.

Benetton wrote:Marques in a way also.

Agreed; in Champ Car back in 04, he was mega until he ran out of money, and he didn't compare too badly when compared to Alonso at Minardi back in 2001; he was certainly better than the tosh that Minardi had back in the late 90s...

I don't know if Justin Wilson has already been mentioned, but I would reccomend him, Cristiano da Matta, and (although they aren't rejects), Christian Klien and Nelson Piquet Jr. (Klien especially considering how he was dropped from Red Bull). I still believe that had Klien's earbox not failed while he was running 3rd at Monaco back in 06 (ahead of Culthard) and about to score RBR's first podium, he would have gone up and up from there; think of how a single podium has affected the public's views on Petrov..

DanielPT wrote:But yes, his main problem is the lack of money backup and being French doesn't help much since France seem to have turned their back on F1 (while going strong in Rally and in Le Mans Series/prototypes).

The All-Knowing Oracle says the big-haired one competed under the Swiss flag for the 2010 GT1 Championship. Maybe he could do the same if he was to return to F1?

Incidentally, I had to remind myself not to put "Rrrrrmmmnnn Grrrrjjjjnnn" into the search engine...

dinizintheoven wrote:

DanielPT wrote:But yes, his main problem is the lack of money backup and being French doesn't help much since France seem to have turned their back on F1 (while going strong in Rally and in Le Mans Series/prototypes).

The All-Knowing Oracle says the big-haired one competed under the Swiss flag for the 2010 GT1 Championship. Maybe he could do the same if he was to return to F1?

Incidentally, I had to remind myself not to put "Rrrrrmmmnnn Grrrrjjjjnnn" into the search engine...

And the Oracle is right. It seems Grrrjjjjnnn changed to his Swiss nationality because he was driving for a Swiss team. While at Renault... Well you get the idea .

Although its difficult to judge his talent, from that season in the awful 1990 Lotus, I think Martin Donnelly may have got some podiums results in F1 had it not been for his crash at Jerez in 1990. He impressed in at his Debut in France qualifying 14th compared to his much more experienced team mate Eddie Cheever who started 25th on the grid. Furthermore, Derek Warwick seemed to rate him highly during their time together at Lotus.