Grand Prix Rejects

I think it's better to NOT comment on Mercedes AMG GP.

Ferrarist wrote:I think it's better to NOT comment on Mercedes AMG GP.

And Rosberg promptly puts his W03 into 7th.

So Maldonado got past and Hülkenberg didn't. I didn't get all the positions right, but It just shows the order is pretty much solid by now...

No Saubers in Q3. I really thought they would be better this weekend.

And just Rosberg in Q3.
So we have the top four locking the front out, with one Mercedes and Maldonado. Hopefully Pastor will qualify into the top four rows.

Hamilton 1:40.6. That is massively fast.

Maldonado's only two tenths off Hamilton's pole lap after two sectors!

He goes 3rd!

where the hell does Maldonado find his lap times from?

Vettel 3rd!

Alonso and Crashjean being investigated for an unsafe release.

Hamilton takes pole! Wibbah second!

Yes, the reverse-jinx worked. Brilliant.

Vettel stopped!? Penalty to be given if it's due to fuel.

Vettel has stopped on the track!

East Londoner wrote:Vettel has stopped on the track!

If the FIA has any credibility they have to send Vettel to 24th place on the grid for that.

Because obviously if he crashed in the session he goes to P10, but heaven forbid run out of fuel, 24th. Lewis Hamilton in Spain comes to mind.

Surprised Hamilton got pole... Then again, I suppose he has always been good around here. I wonder if Vettel stopping out on the track will cost him, as with Hamilton in Spain?

Almost guarantee it won't be a fuel problem - no one's going to make that mistake again. Most probably a technical problem which would count as force majure (but may still give VET a penalty if they need to break Parc Ferme to fix it)

Enoch's Curse has striken again?

According to Davidson, it could be a gearbox problem.

Shizuka wrote:According to Davidson, it could be a gearbox problem.

If that's the case and they have to change it, Vettel starts 8th, or from the pitlane. This means Maldonado is 3rd, right behind Hamilton. Someone fetch me the 'dis gon b gud' gif pronto!

Minardi Man wrote:

East Londoner wrote:The drivers should man up about being blocked. Seriously, Perez was miles ahead of Senna.

Agreed, at the end of the day it didn't make any difference anyway, Senna's slow as a snail even without any other help.

A lot of his qualifying sessions have gone to waste this year due ot being held up. Williams needs to work on their timing to help give this guy some clean air. They always ruin it for him, by sending him out in the dying moments of Q1, to get held up by backmarkers or drivers on their in-laps, and it's the main reason why he's been knocked out of Q1 so often this year. He isn't that slow. Same thing happens pretty often in Q2.

Peter wrote:

Minardi Man wrote:

East Londoner wrote:The drivers should man up about being blocked. Seriously, Perez was miles ahead of Senna.

Agreed, at the end of the day it didn't make any difference anyway, Senna's slow as a snail even without any other help.

A lot of his qualifying sessions have gone to waste this year due ot being held up. Williams needs to work on their timing to help give this guy some clean air. They always ruin it for him, by sending him out in the dying moments of Q1, to get held up by backmarkers or drivers on their in-laps, and it's the main reason why he's been knocked out of Q1 so often this year. He isn't that slow. Same thing happens pretty often in Q2.

Thats one way of looking at it. The other is that great drivers can find space.

Shadaza wrote:

East Londoner wrote:Vettel has stopped on the track!

If the FIA has any credibility they have to send Vettel to 24th place on the grid for that.

Because obviously if he crashed in the session he goes to P10, but heaven forbid run out of fuel, 24th. Lewis Hamilton in Spain comes to mind.

It depends why he pulled over - in the case of Hamilton being penalised in Spain, that was because McLaren chose to not put enough fuel into the car for Hamilton to complete his in lap (something which the teams had been given an official warning from Whiting about in the past). If, on the other hand, there was an actual mechanical or electronic failure on Vettel's car, then he would be exempted on the grounds that neither Vettel nor the team could have anticipated that problem.
Whatever it is, it does sound a little strange (Vettel has said that he was asked to stop the car, suggesting that the team were monitoring a problem from the pit wall) - Eddie Jordan suggested that it might be another alternator problem, which is plausible (Renault did introduce a new alternator design around the Singapore GP to compensate for the problems that Red Bull, and to a lesser extent Lotus, have had this year, but Red Bull are thought to be a little marginal on cooling for their alternator). Davidson's suggestion of a gearbox failure is also plausible (although Vettel didn't indicate that he had lost drive), and again that wouldn't see Vettel pick up a penalty for that (though he would get a separate penalty for changing his gearbox, which is another matter entirely).

GwilymJJames wrote:Almost guarantee it won't be a fuel problem - no one's going to make that mistake again. Most probably a technical problem which would count as force majure (but may still give VET a penalty if they need to break Parc Ferme to fix it)

Again, that might depend on what exactly caused him to stop - some components can be replaced within Parc Ferme so long as they are replaced with an identical part. If Vettel does have an issue with his alternator, the team might then fall foul of the Parc Ferme regulations - unfortunately, it is not immediately clear within the Sporting Regulations if parts such as the alternator would come under the list of engine ancillaries that could result in a penalty for being changed.

inb4 Maldonado wins again.

Maldonado for the win and Vettel and Alonso crashing with each other.

From Jake Humphrey's twitter feed:

@mrjakehumphrey wrote:Gary Anderson on it - was just now the only man to grab Christian Horner...CH said fuel issue and we'll find outcome 'shortly' #bbcf1

It sounds as if Vettel's stoppage on track is proving to be quite contentious - according to Adam Cooper, the stewards called Vettel and personnel from Renault embedded within the Red Bull team first for questioning and have now called Christian Horner, along with more representatives from Renault, for further questioning.
The fact that so many personnel from Renault have been called up does suggest that Vettel's problem is in some way related to the engine - moreover, as Adam Cooper rightly points out, the FIA would not normally call in a team principal for questioning, which suggests that the situation is very serious for Vettel. Jake Humphrey's comments sound rather ominous too, although we'll be waiting for some time yet before an announcement is made, it seems.

On another note, there were a few other investigations taking place after qualifying - there was a potentially unsafe release in the pit lane when Grosjean left his pits as Alonso approached, but the stewards have declared that there will be no further action on that incident. As for the incident between Bruno and Sergio, the stewards have given Perez a formal reprimand for events in Q1 but will not levy any further penalties (though Perez has picked up a separate fine for speeding in the pit lane during the third practise sessions).

Apparently, Charlie Whiting has gone for dinner, which is why the announcement on Vettel will be delayed. I mean, seriously?

East Londoner wrote:Apparently, Charlie Whiting has gone for dinner, which is why the announcement on Vettel will be delayed. I mean, seriously?

A man's gotta eat...but it must be pretty late over there.

But yes, if it ends up being that he ran out of fuel, then he must have the same penalty Hamilton. If it's engine-based, then they can change that without fear of a grid penalty.

BaconLettuceNinja wrote:

East Londoner wrote:Apparently, Charlie Whiting has gone for dinner, which is why the announcement on Vettel will be delayed. I mean, seriously?

A man's gotta eat...but it must be pretty late over there.

But yes, if it ends up being that he ran out of fuel, then he must have the same penalty Hamilton. If it's engine-based, then they can change that without fear of a grid penalty.

From what I saw on TV, it wasn't the gearbox, because he could still shift, he still had brakes too. I don't think it is the alternator, because that would have shut the entire car down. My money would be on the amount of fuel loaded or the fuel delivery system.

As I understand it, the problem is to do with fuel pressure...not a question of under-fueling etc.

It's taking time probably because the Stewards need to be completely satisfied that there is nothing underhand going on.

eagleash wrote:As I understand it, the problem is to do with fuel pressure...not a question of under-fueling etc.

Isn't "fuel pressure" pretty much PR speak for "we didn't put enough fuel in the car"?

Yup, it's official. Vettel starts 24th because he ran out of fuel.

So, the car stopping was legal but the car was illegal anyway? How lucky for Ferrari...

Ferrari conspiracy theorists in 3, 2, 1...

Breaking news via F1Fanatic - they are announcing that Vettel has been stripped of his times and will now start the race from 24th after the stewards found that there was only 850ml of fuel in Vettel's tank, short of the required minimum of 1kg of fuel for a sample to be taken. http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2012/11/03/v ... -decision/

GwilymJJames wrote:So, the car stopping was legal but the car was illegal anyway? How lucky for Ferrari...

If the stewards report is correct, then Red Bull appear to have made exactly the same mistake that McLaren made with Hamilton in Spain by underfilling the car - and are paying a similar penalty as a result.

[EDIT] OK, here is the official report from the FIA on the matter:
From: The FIA Stewards of the Meeting
To: The Team Manager, Red Bull Racing
Date: 03 November 2012
Time: 22:30
The Stewards received a report from the Race Director that car 1 failed to return to the pits under its own power as required under Article 6.6.2 of the FIA Formula One Technical Regulations.
The Stewards heard from the driver and team representatives and studied telemetry evidence that showed the reason why the car was stopped.
The Stewards accepted the explanation and considered the incident as being a case of force majeure.
However a report was received from the Technical Delegate that showed during post-qualifying scrutineering an insufficient quantity of fuel for sampling purposes.
The Stewards determine that this is a breach of Article 6.6.2 of the FIA Formula One Technical Regulations and the Competitor is accordingly excluded from the results of the Qualifying Session.
The Competitor is however allowed to start the race from the back of the grid.
The FIA Stewards of the Meeting
Lars Osterlind
Radovan Novak
Derek Warwick
Khaled Bin Shaiban

So, it sounds as if Vettel's fuel system problems were down to him not having any fuel in the first place. That initial comment, though, about Red Bull and the telemetry traces raises an interesting question - what information did Red Bull provide to the FIA, since it raises the prospect that Red Bull may have, intentionally or not, mislead the stewards...

Thanks a lot, Red Bull! My least favorite driver can win the championship now. Pastor, you know what to do!

Meatwad wrote:Thanks a lot, Red Bull! My least favorite driver can win the championship now. Pastor, you know what to do!

Rather Alonso than Vettel. Any year

Klon wrote:

eagleash wrote:As I understand it, the problem is to do with fuel pressure...not a question of under-fueling etc.

Isn't "fuel pressure" pretty much PR speak for "we didn't put enough fuel in the car"?

Not the implication but it could be possible to infer same should you wish to do so. But it seems academic now the Stewards have made their decision.
Time taken is puzzling though. Light on fuel could be ascertained pretty quickly I would have thought & difficult to defend technically...

YABBADABBADOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!! RIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIINGADIIIIIIIIIIIIIINGDIIIIIIIINGG!!!!!!!!!! LETS ALL HAVE 24 FINGERS OF VODKA IN CELEBRATION!!!

This is good simply because it makes the championship more interesting. But what a major bathplugging up of Seb's campaign by red bull! ROTR front runners now for sure.

Row Man Gross-Gene wrote:This is good simply because it makes the championship more interesting.

Couldn't be said any better.