Grand Prix Rejects

DanielPT wrote:I too am a bit worried that both Caterham and Marussia look a bit slow... I know it is early days, but what we could gather from the last few seasons they have been on board the average gap between them and the pack in testing was real when the season started. Although 3 and 4 are better than 4 and 5, it is still not really good enough...

Do note that both the Caterham and the Marussia are on the hands of rookie drivers who've never had contact with KERS or DRS.

Marussia's day is finished, possible suspension failure

CarlosFerreira wrote:

DanielPT wrote:I too am a bit worried that both Caterham and Marussia look a bit slow... I know it is early days, but what we could gather from the last few seasons they have been on board the average gap between them and the pack in testing was real when the season started. Although 3 and 4 are better than 4 and 5, it is still not really good enough...

Do note that both the Caterham and the Marussia are on the hands of rookie drivers who've never had contact with KERS or DRS.

And that will be another handicap for the season. Together, all their drivers have a grand total of 1 season in F1.

JJMonty wrote:Marussia's day is finished, possible suspension failure

Yep, bit of a shame, but at least it came towards the end of the day. The only annoying thing with that was that they've managed less than 30 laps in the car.

DanielPT wrote:

CarlosFerreira wrote:Do note that both the Caterham and the Marussia are on the hands of rookie drivers who've never had contact with KERS or DRS.

And that will be another handicap for the season. Together, all their drivers have a grand total of 1 season in F1.

That's why Pic's performance will be looked at as a yardstick - he's at least somewhat familiar with DRS, but he will also need to get used to KERS, as the MR01 didn't have that, if I remember it correctly.

final day 1 results

1 Button McLaren 1m18.861s 37
2 Webber Red Bull 1m19.709s +0.848 73
3 Grosjean Lotus 1m19.796s +0.935 54
4 di Resta Force India 1m20.343s +1.482 89
5 Ricciardo Toro Rosso 1m20.401s +1.540 70
6 Massa Ferrari 1m20.536s +1.675 64
7 Hulkenberg Sauber 1m20.699s +1.838 79
8 Rosberg Mercedes 1m20.846s +1.985 11
9 Maldonado Williams 1m20.864s +2.003 84
10 vd Garde Caterham 1m21.915s +3.054 64
11 Chilton Marussia 1m24.176s +5.315 29

CarlosFerreira wrote:Any word yet on what was it that Red Bull was trying to hide in the back of the RB9? They made such a fuss during the presentation you'd think they're trying to get everyone to look at the rear of the car intently and forget about the rest...

To add to that, Anderson says that he has heard rumours that Red Bull are planing on bolting on revised rear bodywork for the tests in Barcelona - so it's questionable why they want to put so much effort into hiding the car when whatever is on there is likely to change anyway.

AndreaModa wrote:

JJMonty wrote:Marussia's day is finished, possible suspension failure

Yep, bit of a shame, but at least it came towards the end of the day. The only annoying thing with that was that they've managed less than 30 laps in the car.

It is a shame, although at least they still have three more days to make up for the lost time today, nor were they the only ones who hit problems (Mercedes are having to modify the wiring loom after Rosberg's earlier electrical fire, whilst McLare only racked up a handful more laps than Marussia did after Button's earlier broke fuel pump).

At least, by the sounds of things, we might start getting some useful indications from the long runs that Grosjean, Di Resta and Webber did (did Ricciardo do a long run or two as well?) as to the running order, especially if somebody can find out what tyres they were using (as that might also start to give some indication of the relative durability of the tyres, even if it is early days). After all, Button has topped the timesheets with a very late quick lap, but that seems to have been set with one of the softer compounds, whereas Grosjean appears to have used the hard compound for much of the day.
I also note that Toro Rosso seem to have made some aggressive plans for 2013 - they are officially targeting 6th place in the WCC for 2013, so evidently somebody expects to see both drivers in the top 10 on a regular basis (although whether they can do that given their relative form in 2012 is open to question).

Sky sports f1 showing highlights of the test at 9pm

CarlosFerreira wrote:

DanielPT wrote:I too am a bit worried that both Caterham and Marussia look a bit slow... I know it is early days, but what we could gather from the last few seasons they have been on board the average gap between them and the pack in testing was real when the season started. Although 3 and 4 are better than 4 and 5, it is still not really good enough...

Do note that both the Caterham and the Marussia are on the hands of rookie drivers who've never had contact with KERS or DRS.

Vd Garde had 6 Fridays in 2012. He's had plenty for KERSDRS running

gap between Marussia and Caterham is really big. And the end of the midfield also seems to be pulling away. With the better drivers pushed aside we might be in for some epic reject action this year

Rusujuur wrote:gap between Marussia and Caterham is really big. And the end of the midfield also seems to be pulling away. With the better drivers pushed aside we might be in for some epic reject action this year

Jeez we haven't even finished the first test and people are already getting their knickers in a twist!

The teams all have different schedules and protocols that they are running through, so it means that whilst one team might be bolting on the softs and putting in fast laps, others might be doing constant-speed aero tests or long fuel runs. This is even more pronounced on the first test when the cars are running for the first time. The results from today mean absolutely nothing. They're not even worth debating.

AndreaModa wrote:

Rusujuur wrote:gap between Marussia and Caterham is really big. And the end of the midfield also seems to be pulling away. With the better drivers pushed aside we might be in for some epic reject action this year

Jeez we haven't even finished the first test and people are already getting their knickers in a twist!

The teams all have different schedules and protocols that they are running through, so it means that whilst one team might be bolting on the softs and putting in fast laps, others might be doing constant-speed aero tests or long fuel runs. This is even more pronounced on the first test when the cars are running for the first time. The results from today mean absolutely nothing. They're not even worth debating.

Well, yes, but the Marussia also looks like an indy-car from the 90s and the Caterham, while looking more like the others is also rather unrefined. And the drivers are all pay drivers ergo not-as-good-as-they-could-be

PS: I would really like every F1 car to look like the Marussia aesthetically but unfortunately there is no speed there.

Rusujuur wrote:Well, yes, but the Marussia also looks like an indy-car from the 90s and the Caterham, while looking more like the others is also rather unrefined. And the drivers are all pay drivers ergo not-as-good-as-they-could-be

PS: I would really like every F1 car to look like the Marussia aesthetically but unfortunately there is no speed there.

How do you know? It's only done 29 laps of Jerez, and most of them weren't even at full chat. The same goes for the Caterham. You cannot draw any conclusions from how you think the cars look and how well they perform on the first day of the first test.

Now you may well be right, Caterham and Marussia may be no further to the front than last year, but in the spirit of this site at the very least, please try and have a bit of optimism? Uninformed generalisations putting down the efforts of small teams with no money who work long hours in order to be where they are is quite disrespectful in my opinion. At least give them a bloody chance.

caterham and fi got hit with the ugly stick this year

marussia and sauber both look quite tidy

str looking pretty good to

AndreaModa wrote:How do you know? It's only done 29 laps of Jerez, and most of them weren't even at full chat. The same goes for the Caterham. You cannot draw any conclusions from how you think the cars look and how well they perform on the first day of the first test.

True, but there is a pattern, the times and comparisons were similar last year and the year before etc. If you have a the two back marker teams from last year in the end of the order with similar gaps to last years day 1 then you can draw some conclusions ie. they have not improved as much as they could have. When Honda was an expensive reject and suddenly Brawn was fast you also could make some predictions eh?

AndreaModa wrote:Now you may well be right, Caterham and Marussia may be no further to the front than last year, but in the spirit of this site at the very least, please try and have a bit of optimism? Uninformed generalisations putting down the efforts of small teams with no money who work long hours in order to be where they are is quite disrespectful in my opinion. At least give them a bloody chance.

I have optimism for many reasons. Reason 1 being that a team like Force India has been able to recover from their bad years and has a chance to achieve just like last year. Secondly I also salute the efforts of Sauber and Williams who are also not rich on the money side and also employ paydrivers but are keeping up with the front. And thirdly, aren't we here to cheer for rejectfulness which is what both Marussia and Caterham represent - being there despite the odds and despite the fact that they will probably not score. This year can be legendary in this sense as I feel that the rest of the field has improved but they haven't so we can maybe have a season of some serious DNQ action and additions to the record books. Isn't this also part of what this site represents?

Rusujuur wrote:True, but there is a pattern, the times and comparisons were similar last year and the year before etc. If you have a the two back marker teams from last year in the end of the order with similar gaps to last years day 1 then you can draw some conclusions ie. they have not improved as much as they could have. When Honda was an expensive reject and suddenly Brawn was fast you also could make some predictions eh?

Without meaning to come barging into the conversation, no. You cannot make any conclusions at this stage. What you can make are assumptions and guesses. These are very different things. It is entirely possible that the gap may be the same and what you said may turn out to be right, but it is way too early to start making statements as facts on the basis of one days testing.

Rusujuur wrote:I have optimism for many reasons. Reason 1 being that a team like Force India has been able to recover from their bad years and has a chance to achieve just like last year. Secondly I also salute the efforts of Sauber and Williams who are also not rich on the money side and also employ paydrivers but are keeping up with the front. And thirdly, aren't we here to cheer for rejectfulness which is what both Marussia and Caterham represent - being there despite the odds and despite the fact that they will probably not score. This year can be legendary in this sense as I feel that the rest of the field has improved but they haven't so we can maybe have a season of some serious DNQ action and additions to the record books. Isn't this also part of what this site represents?

I don't know about anybody else, but this certainly isn't what this site represents to me. We are here to cheer for the rejects, but not to cheer for rejectfulness. If you read many of the driver profiles on the site, they generally put a positive spin on some of the most maligned drivers in the sport, attempting to explain why much of this was unfair. We are here to cheer them on and want them to get better, not in some morbid hope that they do badly. Of course, other members can correct me if I'm wrong here...

That Sauber is breathtaking, it is doing things to me.

FloProAct wrote:

Rusujuur wrote:True, but there is a pattern, the times and comparisons were similar last year and the year before etc. If you have a the two back marker teams from last year in the end of the order with similar gaps to last years day 1 then you can draw some conclusions ie. they have not improved as much as they could have. When Honda was an expensive reject and suddenly Brawn was fast you also could make some predictions eh?

Without meaning to come barging into the conversation, no. You cannot make any conclusions at this stage. What you can make are assumptions and guesses. These are very different things. It is entirely possible that the gap may be the same and what you said may turn out to be right, but it is way too early to start making statements as facts on the basis of one days testing.

Rusujuur wrote:I have optimism for many reasons. Reason 1 being that a team like Force India has been able to recover from their bad years and has a chance to achieve just like last year. Secondly I also salute the efforts of Sauber and Williams who are also not rich on the money side and also employ paydrivers but are keeping up with the front. And thirdly, aren't we here to cheer for rejectfulness which is what both Marussia and Caterham represent - being there despite the odds and despite the fact that they will probably not score. This year can be legendary in this sense as I feel that the rest of the field has improved but they haven't so we can maybe have a season of some serious DNQ action and additions to the record books. Isn't this also part of what this site represents?

I don't know about anybody else, but this certainly isn't what this site represents to me. We are here to cheer for the rejects, but not to cheer for rejectfulness. If you read many of the driver profiles on the site, they generally put a positive spin on some of the most maligned drivers in the sport, attempting to explain why much of this was unfair. We are here to cheer them on and want them to get better, not in some morbid hope that they do badly. Of course, other members can correct me if I'm wrong here...

My thought is that we cheer on our rejects to do better, but when they fail we support them in failure.

Shadaza wrote:

That Sauber is breathtaking, it is doing things to me.

I agree. That is the most beautiful car of the 2009 regs.

Spectacularly, I can already foresee, just from this test, the pecking order in Australia!

1- McLaren
2- Red Dull
3- Lewis Hamilton
4- Fernando Alonso
5- Enstone
6- Williams
7- Red Dull nº2
8- Sauber
9- Mallya
10 - The Team Formerly Known as Lotus
11 - Ex-Virgin

Or I might spectacularly fail, as per usual...

Shadaza wrote:

That Sauber is breathtaking, it is doing things to me.

WOWZERS! Looks even better from that angle.

pasta_maldonado wrote:My thought is that we cheer on our rejects to do better, but when they fail we support them in failure.

Well, I have been supporting Caterham for the past years, but i'm giving up and now I want some legendary rejectfulness that has been missing for some years. HRT even went out somehow unspectacularly.

pasta_maldonado wrote:

Shadaza wrote:

That Sauber is breathtaking, it is doing things to me.

I agree. That is the most beautiful car of the 2009 regs.

My favorite as well, they had a good car last year and still they dared to revolutionize as opposed to most of the field. I do hope they don't have cooling issues but will probably not be evident until Australia or Sepang. Go Hulk! He has also proved you can have a comeback in these tight times as I was sure he is done after he was ditched by Williams.

Talking about the times between certain cars during the first test, we won't know ANYTHING until Q1 in Australia. Simple.

AdrianSutil wrote:Talking about the times between certain cars during the first test, we won't know ANYTHING until Q1 in Australia. Simple.

Williams haven't even launched their car yet, who knows how competitive it'll be?

redbulljack14 wrote:

AdrianSutil wrote:Talking about the times between certain cars during the first test, we won't know ANYTHING until Q1 in Australia. Simple.

Williams haven't even launched their car yet, who knows how competitive it'll be?

Exactly. And to those members who have been moaning about how far back Caterham and Marussia seem to be: Both teams not only have rookie (Pic is the most experienced wtf?!) drivers this year, but BOTH TEAMS MADE THE FIRST DAY OF THE FIRST TEST!!!!!1!1!1! Surely we should be celebrating that, not complaining.

AdrianSutil wrote:

redbulljack14 wrote:

AdrianSutil wrote:Talking about the times between certain cars during the first test, we won't know ANYTHING until Q1 in Australia. Simple.

Williams haven't even launched their car yet, who knows how competitive it'll be?

Exactly. And to those members who have been moaning about how far back Caterham and Marussia seem to be: Both teams not only have rookie (Pic is the most experienced wtf?!) drivers this year, but BOTH TEAMS MADE THE FIRST DAY OF THE FIRST TEST!!!!!1!1!1! Surely we should be celebrating that, not complaining.

Agree, expecially for Marussia, this is great for the team to make testing.

Imagine these forum posts had lets say Chilton has a suspension failure in P1 in Australia. (Arrows 2000 'spring' (sorry!) to mind. Better here than later!

Rusujuur wrote:I do hope they don't have cooling issues but will probably not be evident until Australia or Sepang. Go Hulk! He has also proved you can have a comeback in these tight times as I was sure he is done after he was ditched by Williams.

Yesterday on Swiss-TV was a report about the new Sauber with technical insight and interviews and according to Peter Sauber there are no problems with heat at all. The temperatur are the same as with the old car, so they think it won't be a problem.
An other problem seems to be the cockpit. It was designed around Kobayashi and Perez and Hülkenberg is around 12cm taller than Perez. They said it was quite tricky to fit Hülkenberg into the cockpit but it seems it was quite comfortable for him. Hülkenberg said, they had to work around the seat to make him fit. If he would only be 1cm taller, it wouldn't have been possible to fit him. Which makes me wonder if they don't think about the drivers height when signing them?

Zetec wrote:

Rusujuur wrote:I do hope they don't have cooling issues but will probably not be evident until Australia or Sepang. Go Hulk! He has also proved you can have a comeback in these tight times as I was sure he is done after he was ditched by Williams.

Yesterday on Swiss-TV was a report about the new Sauber with technical insight and interviews and according to Peter Sauber there are no problems with heat at all. The temperatur are the same as with the old car, so they think it won't be a problem.
An other problem seems to be the cockpit. It was designed around Kobayashi and Perez and Hülkenberg is around 12cm taller than Perez. They said it was quite tricky to fit Hülkenberg into the cockpit but it seems it was quite comfortable for him. Hülkenberg said, they had to work around the seat to make him fit. If he would only be 1cm taller, it wouldn't have been possible to fit him. Which makes me wonder if they don't think about the drivers height when signing them?

From memory, that was the reason why Jos Verstappen didn't get the Jordan drive during 2004 once it turned out that Pantano wasn't worth EJ's time.

It really is too bad that beautiful Sauber has to have that logo of a terrorist organization in front of the cockpit.

Chelsea FC is a terrorist organization, now I've heard it all

eurobrun wrote:Chelsea FC is a terrorist organization, now I've heard it all

Yeah that is a bit harsh on terrorist organizations.

Grosjean already in mid-season form:

http://youtu.be/YoAr2N9yWRM?t=2m

Svenko Wankerov wrote:

eurobrun wrote:Chelsea FC is a terrorist organization, now I've heard it all

Yeah that is a bit harsh on terrorist organizations.

Grosjean already in mid-season form:

http://youtu.be/YoAr2N9yWRM?t=2m

I know that football teams can inspire strong passions, but I didn't think that they'd be that strong...

Anyway, despite Grosjean's little mistake there, the reports coming back from Jerez about the performance of the E21 have been quite favourable - Grosjean seems to be very happy with the performance of the car and the reports from some of the trackside observers suggested that it looked to be one of the best balanced cars out there. Early days, maybe, but it sounds as if Lotus have carried over some of the more positive handling traits of the E20 into the E21 and have a solid enough car to work with.

As for Caterham, Kravitz noted yesterday that the team are not planning on introducing any major upgrades for the CT-03 until the Spanish GP - the car that you see right now is more or less what you're going to see for the first four races.

You know, it's only a matter of time before Mercedes start to get sick of seeing their car return to the pits on the back of a flatbed truck.

And the more I think about it, the more I'm starting to suspect that Button's time yesterday may actually be a genuine yardstick of where that McLaren's at, considering how close it is last year's benchmark by Grosjean.

That Sauber has favourably impressed me. It looked grey in presentation pictures, but now on track it's almost black. And for the first time, it doesn't look like a BMW-leftover at all. It's also somewhat reminiscent of later-day Minardis.

I am really worried about Caterham and especially Marussia. The CT-03 is too similar to the car they used last season to no great effect, and the MR-02 looks woefully primitive. To worsen things, both teams have inexperienced drivers.

I think they will absolutely have races of their own at the back of the field this season. Worse still, Marussia will have a gap to bridge with Caterham.

And is Toro Rosso's form genuine, or a bluff?

Wizzie wrote:You know, it's only a matter of time before Mercedes start to get sick of seeing their car return to the pits on the back of a flatbed truck.

And the more I think about it, the more I'm starting to suspect that Button's time yesterday may actually be a genuine yardstick of where that McLaren's at, considering how close it is last year's benchmark by Grosjean.

The cause for Hamilton's crash was a brakes failure.

pi314159 wrote:

Wizzie wrote:You know, it's only a matter of time before Mercedes start to get sick of seeing their car return to the pits on the back of a flatbed truck.

And the more I think about it, the more I'm starting to suspect that Button's time yesterday may actually be a genuine yardstick of where that McLaren's at, considering how close it is last year's benchmark by Grosjean.

The cause for Hamilton's crash was a brakes failure.

So, they have an unreliable car... again. Hamilton to suffer from Schumacher's early 2012 travails anyone?

pi314159 wrote:

Wizzie wrote:You know, it's only a matter of time before Mercedes start to get sick of seeing their car return to the pits on the back of a flatbed truck.

And the more I think about it, the more I'm starting to suspect that Button's time yesterday may actually be a genuine yardstick of where that McLaren's at, considering how close it is last year's benchmark by Grosjean.

The cause for Hamilton's crash was a brakes failure.

That'll do wonders for his confidence.

Autosport has a picture of the Hamilton crash:

pi314159 wrote:Autosport has a picture of the Hamilton crash:

Looks like it's been taken with a BlackBerry