PMMF Canon Discussion Thread

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 25 Apr 2013, 18:26

This wrote:
BlindCaveSalamander wrote:
Aerond wrote:F1RMGP Is non-cannon

You're welcome to participate in the vote if you want to.

You might have missed the joke.

There was a joke?

Post by **tommykl** » 25 Apr 2013, 18:38

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:
This wrote:
BlindCaveSalamander wrote:You're welcome to participate in the vote if you want to.

You might have missed the joke.

There was a joke?

Apparently. Something about Damon Cannon?

Aerond · Post by **Aerond** » 26 Apr 2013, 09:21

lol, I must have missed the voting etiquette or something there; but it was meant to be my vote :lol:

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 26 Apr 2013, 09:28

tommykl wrote:
BlindCaveSalamander wrote:
This wrote:You might have missed the joke.

There was a joke?

Apparently. Something about Damon Cannon?

I thought he was the joke :lol:

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 26 Apr 2013, 13:35

Aerond wrote:lol, I must have missed the voting etiquette or something there; but it was meant to be my vote

Oh, sorry about that. Voting is conducted by PM/e-mail, but I'll add your vote to the tally since obviously I didn't make it clear enough.

dinizintheoven · Post by **dinizintheoven** » 26 Apr 2013, 14:11

I see now why I found an email in my inbox alerting me to this discussion - I was aware it was there before, looked at it, didn't have much to say, and figured the answer should have been obvious anyway - I suppose the only thing I'd take issue with is that the series has been "removed" from a list that it should never have been on in the first place.

The chances are I've already said this when I wrote a very lengthy post outlining the creation and propagation of F1RMGP when Il Barone Rampante "bought into" Scuderia Andrea Coloni and Minardi, but I'll say it again. Initially, F1RMGP was created purely as a "what if" exercise. "What if" all those reject drivers and teams that we revere so much could be brought back together to race again, this time with a genuine shot of victory with no McLaren and no Williams to get in their way, and which would also have been no Ferrari if only I'd thought of the creation of Viking Racing for the 2011 season? I've got an idea, let's grab the one program I know that is more customisable than any of the others and actually has real Grand Prix tracks with sort-of-real Grand Prix drivers, and see what happens. I hadn't read any of the F1RWRS threads at the time, I'd most likely have found the rules and regulations far too convoluted to think of joining, I was unaware that Grand Prix 2 even existed, let alone was being used to generate F1RWRS... but somehow, possibly because of the end-of-2011-season post involving an undead James Hunt getting drunk, HWNSNBM's Hungarian phrasebook and Gerhard Berger wearing Hans Heyer's hat, there was demand for a second season. This is even though there wasn't the outside participation that F1RWRS had, it was more of a soap opera involving actual generated race results (as opposed to just the behind-the-scenes malarkey that was the season-and-a-bit of Maranello which I know I've posted in the PMMF before and has most likely been dispatched to the FOFBMF if anyone wants to go looking for it. chiark.greenend.org.uk/maranello I think will get you there.)

So I got involved with writing ever longer and ever more detailed race reports, then came the news and rumours the way they'd do in F1RWRS and its eventual feeder series, then came the Silly Season, and only after that - with some clamouring for more participation from outside - came the WEC, which killed three birds with one stone; it was an F1RMGP-sanctioned series where those who were watching could get involved, it would sort out another "what if", that of how all the female drivers we revere so much would fare if pitted against each other, and would show me if GP2 was a suitable platform to move to. The last of these, it certainly showed that GP2 had some serious flaws that GP1 didn't, and every F1RMGP-sanctioned series since then has seen me trying to devise ever more ingenious ways round GP2's worst characteristic, that of how it is able to generate identical results every time (although this does allow me to replay races where I've missed something important!) with the same initial input. Bathurst 2014 was initially going to be a trial of how 2015 Main Series pre-qualifying would work - there are 28 slots for 14 teams, but what happens if the 14th slot has to be filled by two drivers from different teams when only one car from each team has made it through pre-qualifying? It didn't end up being solved that way, and how I do it is a closely guarded secret, as is how the Bathurst standings were generated. Bathurst did sort out another "what if", though, and that's "what if" all the drivers I'd heard so much about in the RWRS universe (as I've referred to it in the Bathurst thread) were given a chance to drive alongside the real-lifers - how would they fare, at least how would it happen in the way I chose to find out, and how would the women and men fare against each other when competing in the same race?

I never intended for F1RMGP to grow into what it did, certainly not from the scratchy beginnings of the 2011 season, but... it just happened. Neither did I ever see that the tangled tentacles of "what's canon and what isn't" would ever become so meshed together it would be hard to un-knot them all. I can see why it's only now that this has had to be sorted out - it's only today I've looked at the PMMF for the first time in over a week, and I find that the forum divisions aren't as I thought they'd be; I figured it'd be two sub-forums, one for racing series that end up on the wiki, one for the alternative championships with results that are derived from what actually happened in F1 from 1950 onwards. But Jamie's chosen to divide it further, into RWRS and non-RWRS forums, and so the answer always should have been (as you'd worked out) that no, F1RMGP isn't part of the RWRS canon and was never intended to be. As for how the series has also involved into a bizarre melange of GP2 Rejects and GP Masters, that's likely to be resolved in the upcoming Silly Season.

But, seeing as F1RMGP has its very obvious nod to Red Dwarf in the use of hologrammatic drivers, you can see Bathurst this way: if F1RMGP is the universe where Rimmer leaves to become Ace in the much-derided (not always fairly) series 7 and Lister, Kryten and Cat are left behind, then RWRS could be the universe where Kochanski is the one left alive, Lister is revived as the one to keep her sane, there's a different Cat and Kryten is gold. It is possible to build a bridge between the two universes, allowing Kochanski to step over the bridge, however unwittingly, and get trapped in the other universe. The equivalent of that bridge between F1RMGP and RWRS is the Bathurst Enduro, in which RWRS drivers cross into the F1RMGP universe to compete at Bathurst, time travellers and all, and then leave that universe when the race is done - so the Katayama sisters won't be competing in the WEC any time soon, whatever FMecha might think, but Ukyo Katayama could certainly get a Main Series drive. And then there's "non-space" between the two, which the GELFs (one of which is Achachach-ach-Achachachach, Lister's wife, who sounds like a footballer clearing his nose) managed to infiltrate, which is another entity altogether, and I suppose this is where we could say the Warped Touring Car Series is taking place...

What I'll say is that although F1RMGP isn't part of the RWRS canon, there is an "F1RMGP canon", whereby any drivers involved in this universe cannot compete in any other race that happens during an F1RMGP race weekend, pre-season testing session, or while Bathurst is on. This is why I'm very careful about sending Þorvaldur Einarsson to compete in any other series, unless it happens in "non-space". I suppose I could count the same for Clatterham Racing, which is why there are five nominated drivers (and there may be more); that team will compete in any available Touring Car series, but if two are happening in the same year, with almost-certainly-clashing race weekends, it can be easily circumvented with a Perkelainen/JVD line-up in one series and a Raisins/Wunderbar line-up in the other. Inevitably, some are going to slide through the net at some stage, but I'm very careful about these things.

As I've said on the F1RMGP 2015 thread not long ago, Bathurst 2015 will happen... soon-ish, probably mid-to-late May. The thread will be found in the 18MDMF - Nuppiz, or anyone else who's involved in moderating this forum now, I'll ask that you don't move the F1RMGP 2015 thread to the archive until all the Silly Season News is over, which will be much closer to the start of the 2016 season, and that won't be until the autumn, I'd say.

Post by **Nuppiz** » 26 Apr 2013, 20:10

dinizintheoven wrote:As I've said on the F1RMGP 2015 thread not long ago, Bathurst 2015 will happen... soon-ish, probably mid-to-late May. The thread will be found in the 18MDMF - Nuppiz, or anyone else who's involved in moderating this forum now, I'll ask that you don't move the F1RMGP 2015 thread to the archive until all the Silly Season News is over, which will be much closer to the start of the 2016 season, and that won't be until the autumn, I'd say.

Don't worry - I've only archived topics where the season is over and discussion has moved on to the next season's topic, or the last post was from 31st Dec 2012 or earlier (apart from a couple of exceptions). Because F1RMGP 2015 still has the Bathurst Enduro and other things to deal with, it won't be moved until you declare that season over and tell people to start following the 2016 thread instead.

UncreativeUsername37 · Post by **UncreativeUsername37** » 26 Apr 2013, 21:05

dinizintheoven wrote:The last of these, it certainly showed that GP2 had some serious flaws that GP1 didn't, and every F1RMGP-sanctioned series since then has seen me trying to devise ever more ingenious ways round GP2's worst characteristic, that of how it is able to generate identical results every time (although this does allow me to replay races where I've missed something important!) with the same initial input.

GP1 doesn't have that? Because whenever I load a save in it, the exact same things happen every time it's loaded.

dinizintheoven · Post by **dinizintheoven** » 27 Apr 2013, 13:54

This is what I found out:

Load GP1, start a non-championship race at (say) Brazil, take the first result. Note the qualifying positions, note the race standings. We will call this result race A.
Quit GP1, reload it, start a non-championship race at Brazil, take the first result. Note the qualifying positions, note the race standings. We will call this result race B.
A and B are completely different.

Load GP2, start a non-championship race at Brazil, take the first result. Note the qualifying positions, note the race standings. We will call this result race C.
Quit GP2, reload it, start a non-championship race at Brazil, take the first result. Note the qualifying positions, note the race standings. We will call this result race D.
Quit GP2, reload it, start a non-championship race at Brazil, but this time, abandon the race weekend before qualifying even starts, race again on the same circuit, and this time go through the whole race. Note the qualifying positions, note the race standings. We will call this result race E.
Quit GP2, reload it, start a non-championship race at Brazil, and again, abandon the first race weekend, race again on the same circuit, exactly as above, and take the second set of results. Note the qualifying positions, note the race standings. We will call this result race F.
Quit GP2, reload it, start a non-championship race at Brazil, but this time, abandon the race weekend before qualifying even starts, exit the non-championship race, then go straight back into it, start another non-championship race in Brazil, and go through that race weekend. Note the qualifying positions, note the race standings. We will call this result race G.
Quit GP2, reload it, start a non-championship race at TI Aida, and take the first available race, in other words, exactly the same process as races C and D. Note the qualifying positions, note the race standings. We will call this result race H.

Races C and D are absolutely identical - qualifying positions, qualifying times, race positions, race times, laps down, retirements - they are perfect copies of each other. Races E and F are also absolutely identical, but if I remember rightly, G is not identical to E and F. Race H, though, is alarmingly similar to E and F - it's a different circuit, hence all the times are different, but the same drivers are likely to be up the sharp end of the grid, the order right to the back is only likely to have a few drivers differing by one or two places, and the result will be very similar to that of races E and F as well. And this, when I ran the first two races of the 2014 WEC season, was what alerted me to how the random number generator is always set to the same seed each time GP2 is started, which I now use to replay races since the start of the pre-qualifying format.

I suspect what UgncreativeUsergane has found is that the random number seed in GP1 is saved with the game - so, start the save file, run the next race, the results will always be the same. But the seed is set differently every time the game is started, probably using an internal timer on the processor. That's what the random number generator in the ZX Spectrum does, so it's not too much to ask for a mid-1990s PC game to have done the same.

RealRacingRoots · Post by **RealRacingRoots** » 04 May 2013, 00:53

After some Canon discussions in the Chatroom, we gave birth to this.

HawkAussie · Post by **HawkAussie** » 04 May 2013, 11:03

?????????

UncreativeUsername37 · Post by **UncreativeUsername37** » 04 May 2013, 12:59

Matt121 wrote:?????????

Yep, I think that's the intended reaction. But I feel like asking an actual question: what's the difference between the red and blue arrows?

Post by **tommykl** » 04 May 2013, 14:01

UgncreativeUsergname wrote:
Matt121 wrote:?????????

Yep, I think that's the intended reaction. But I feel like asking an actual question: what's the difference between the red and blue arrows?

I believe a blue arrow represents a pretty unrealistic but not impossible career move.

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 04 May 2013, 15:59

Hate to break it to you, but, the current F1RSTC champion got there from Rejects of LFS (now IFRC)...

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 04 May 2013, 16:08

Stramala wrote:Hate to break it to you, but, the current F1RSTC champion got there from Rejects of LFS (now IFRC)...

Yeah. There's no point in a flowchart for the PMMF - there's so many avenues for progression that really you can only establish tiers of competition, not a specific path. Just like real life.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 05 May 2013, 22:08

So there's not intended to be any movement between GT-R WC to F1RWRS directly, even though they share a feeder series??? Even though in reality, drivers like Bruno Senna, Narain Karthikeyan, Giancarlo Fisichella and Mark Webber move directly from F1 to sportscars and vice versa?

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 06 May 2013, 08:09

dr-baker wrote:So there's not intended to be any movement between GT-R WC to F1RWRS directly, even though they share a feeder series??? Even though in reality, drivers like Bruno Senna, Narain Karthikeyan, Giancarlo Fisichella and Mark Webber move directly from F1 to sportscars and vice versa?

It's not intended to be a full chart of who can go where, merely a tool to help aid our friends over at EFR about what the main paths are.

AndreaModa · Post by **AndreaModa** » 06 May 2013, 09:24

Wizzie wrote:
dr-baker wrote:So there's not intended to be any movement between GT-R WC to F1RWRS directly, even though they share a feeder series??? Even though in reality, drivers like Bruno Senna, Narain Karthikeyan, Giancarlo Fisichella and Mark Webber move directly from F1 to sportscars and vice versa?

It's not intended to be a full chart of who can go where, merely a tool to help aid our friends over at EFR about what the main paths are.

EFR being...?

RonDenisDeletraz · Post by **RonDenisDeletraz** » 06 May 2013, 09:31

AndreaModa wrote:
Wizzie wrote:
dr-baker wrote:So there's not intended to be any movement between GT-R WC to F1RWRS directly, even though they share a feeder series??? Even though in reality, drivers like Bruno Senna, Narain Karthikeyan, Giancarlo Fisichella and Mark Webber move directly from F1 to sportscars and vice versa?

It's not intended to be a full chart of who can go where, merely a tool to help aid our friends over at EFR about what the main paths are.

EFR being...?

The TM Master Cup series forum. Cynon is the main admin there and a few other F1Rejects people post there sometimes.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 06 May 2013, 09:33

eurobrun wrote:
AndreaModa wrote:
Wizzie wrote:
It's not intended to be a full chart of who can go where, merely a tool to help aid our friends over at EFR about what the main paths are.

EFR being...?

The TM Master Cup series forum. Cynon is the main admin there and a few other F1Rejects people post there sometimes.

Well, it's more than a few post here and there now, considering we've basically done an nWo-style takeover of the TM Lights series for this year

RonDenisDeletraz · Post by **RonDenisDeletraz** » 06 May 2013, 09:37

Wizzie wrote:
eurobrun wrote:
AndreaModa wrote:EFR being...?

The TM Master Cup series forum. Cynon is the main admin there and a few other F1Rejects people post there sometimes.

Well, it's more than a few post here and there now, considering we've basically done an nWo-style takeover of the TM Lights series for this year

I guess so, I was still there long before all you lot though :lol:

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 06 May 2013, 11:14

Wizzie wrote:Well, it's more than a few post here and there now, considering we've basically done an nWo-style takeover of the TM Lights series for this year

nWo-style takeover???

RealRacingRoots · Post by **RealRacingRoots** » 07 May 2013, 04:57

dr-baker wrote:
Wizzie wrote:Well, it's more than a few post here and there now, considering we've basically done an nWo-style takeover of the TM Lights series for this year

nWo-style takeover???

You act like this is a problem.

Either that or you don't know wrestling

rWo 4 life

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 08 May 2013, 11:34

RealRacingRoots wrote:
dr-baker wrote:
Wizzie wrote:Well, it's more than a few post here and there now, considering we've basically done an nWo-style takeover of the TM Lights series for this year

nWo-style takeover???

You act like this is a problem. Either that or you don't know wrestling

rWo 4 life

The preceding announcement has been paid for by the rWo

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 08 May 2013, 18:31

RealRacingRoots wrote:
dr-baker wrote:
Wizzie wrote:Well, it's more than a few post here and there now, considering we've basically done an nWo-style takeover of the TM Lights series for this year

nWo-style takeover???

You act like this is a problem. Either that or you don't know wrestling

This...

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 08 May 2013, 18:37

dr-baker wrote:
RealRacingRoots wrote:You act like this is a problem. Either that or you don't know wrestling

This...

Eh, don't worry. I don't know wrestling either.

Post by **Londoner** » 08 May 2013, 18:39

I'm guessing you'd be part of the Wolfpac, Baker.

If only WCW hadn't self-destructed during 1999/2000.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 08 May 2013, 18:49

East Londoner wrote:I'm guessing you'd be part of the Wolfpac, Baker.

I have absolutely no idea whether to take this as a compliment, insultingly, or to remain totally neutral about this...

Post by **Londoner** » 08 May 2013, 19:12

dr-baker wrote:
East Londoner wrote:I'm guessing you'd be part of the Wolfpac, Baker.

I have absolutely no idea whether to take this as a compliment, insultingly, or to remain totally neutral about this...

They were the "face" incarnation of the nWo in 1998, ie the "good guys" fighting against the heel nWo (the baddies). Although that might be up for debate... :lol:

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 08 May 2013, 19:57

East Londoner wrote:
dr-baker wrote:
East Londoner wrote:I'm guessing you'd be part of the Wolfpac, Baker.

I have absolutely no idea whether to take this as a compliment, insultingly, or to remain totally neutral about this...

They were the "face" incarnation of the nWo in 1998, ie the "good guys" fighting against the heel nWo (the baddies). Although that might be up for debate...

I suppose being compared to the perceived goodies is no bad thing. Although typing the word goodies just then made me think of this...

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 04 Jun 2013, 18:10

Alright, after some discussion in the mibbit chat, I'm gonna open a vote on the canonicity of Shadaza's Cycling Series (currently without a formal title), located here: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=5186.

Currently the series is non-canon. The vote will last for 3 days, like the last one, until FRIDAY JUNE 7 2013, 20:00 UTC

Rasmus · Post by **Rasmus** » 04 Jun 2013, 18:25

What would the difference be, if it turned canon? I guess none of our racing drivers will try cycling and same goes the other way round...?

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 04 Jun 2013, 18:42

Rasmus wrote:What would the difference be, if it turned canon? I guess none of our racing drivers will try cycling and same goes the other way round...?

It would make such a thing possible, but whether anyone would bother with it is another matter.

pasta_maldonado · Post by **pasta_maldonado** » 04 Jun 2013, 20:10

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:
Rasmus wrote:What would the difference be, if it turned canon? I guess none of our racing drivers will try cycling and same goes the other way round...?

It would make such a thing possible, but whether anyone would bother with it is another matter.

I'd like to see it canon so we can acknowledge that it's a world event happening at the same time and in the same Universe as RWRS.

takagi_for_the_win · Post by **takagi_for_the_win** » 04 Jun 2013, 20:12

Really, whether or not it's canon has no realistic bearing on the rest of the RWRS universe surely?

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 04 Jun 2013, 20:20

takagi_for_the_win wrote:Really, whether or not it's canon has no realistic bearing on the rest of the RWRS universe surely?

Not really, but I only had Shadaza and Stramala weighing in at the time. If anyone has any objections, I want to give them the opportunity to voice them before moving it into the canon.

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 04 Jun 2013, 21:37

takagi_for_the_win wrote:Really, whether or not it's canon has no realistic bearing on the rest of the RWRS universe surely?

Yes it does.

It means the RWRS universe gets another Voeckler :mrgreen:

Klon · Post by **Klon** » 08 Jun 2013, 00:18

I would agree that the cycling event can be canon. It won't hurt, really.

Now for a more important issue: dark77 and I were recently talking about the possibility of having the Indy 500 on the Alternate CART calendar. This would obviously imply the absence of the Indy Racing Leauge. Now I for my part would propose that, in an "ironic twist" we simply reverse the fates of open-wheel racing (i.e. F1 gets split whereas ChampCar never does) in the Canon. Given as dark77 hasn't made a final decision on the issue yet, it is not a pressing issue but worth talking about nontheless.

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 08 Jun 2013, 01:31

Well, I certainly missed the deadline on this. Either way, since no objections were really raised, Shadaza's cycling series gets added to the list of canon series.

BTW, Shadaza, you should really come up with an actual name for it.

Gerudo Dragon · Post by **Gerudo Dragon** » 08 Jun 2013, 05:04

Klon wrote:I would agree that the cycling event can be canon. It won't hurt, really.

Now for a more important issue: dark77 and I were recently talking about the possibility of having the Indy 500 on the Alternate CART calendar. This would obviously imply the absence of the Indy Racing Leauge. Now I for my part would propose that, in an "ironic twist" we simply reverse the fates of open-wheel racing (i.e. F1 gets split whereas ChampCar never does) in the Canon. Given as dark77 hasn't made a final decision on the issue yet, it is not a pressing issue but worth talking about nontheless.

Well, I thinking was that after a year or so CART gets so popular that it takes over the IRL and then we can have it on the calender, but that's just me...