Grand Prix Rejects

Wizzie wrote:

JohnMLTX wrote:Bourdais would've kicked ass and taken names if he had been in formula 1 this year.

But he wasn't. So he didn't.

Toro Rosso really is a reputation destoryer isn't it?

Toro Rosso killing people's reputations is not really an unpopular opinion... they have the Red Bull chassis (de facto, anyway) and a Ferrari engine, and still manage to suck. But are we sure it's the car that sucks ... ? ... or maybe the wheelholders?

Cynon wrote:

Wizzie wrote:

JohnMLTX wrote:Bourdais would've kicked ass and taken names if he had been in formula 1 this year.

But he wasn't. So he didn't.

Toro Rosso really is a reputation destoryer isn't it?

Toro Rosso killing people's reputations is not really an unpopular opinion... they have the Red Bull chassis (de facto, anyway) and a Ferrari engine, and still manage to suck. But are we sure it's the car that sucks ... ? ... or maybe the wheelholders?

Driving for Minardi was only able to enhance reputations, whereas Toro Rosso seems to be having the opposite effect...

dr-baker wrote:

Cynon wrote:

Wizzie wrote:
But he wasn't. So he didn't.

Toro Rosso really is a reputation destoryer isn't it?

Toro Rosso killing people's reputations is not really an unpopular opinion... they have the Red Bull chassis (de facto, anyway) and a Ferrari engine, and still manage to suck. But are we sure it's the car that sucks ... ? ... or maybe the wheelholders?

Driving for Minardi was only able to enhance reputations, whereas Toro Rosso seems to be having the opposite effect...

The difference between Minardi and Toro Rosso other than the culture is Minardi is actually capable of nurturing drivers whereas Toro Rosso seemingly cannot do that.

And that leads to another unpopular opinion:

Toro Rosso can nurture talent. Proof? They delivered Sebastian Vettel!

If they want a better way of evaluating youngsters just put someone reliable in the other car. I happen know such driver and luckily he is available. He is called Nick.

Cynon wrote:

Wizzie wrote:

JohnMLTX wrote:Bourdais would've kicked ass and taken names if he had been in formula 1 this year.

But he wasn't. So he didn't.

Toro Rosso really is a reputation destoryer isn't it?

Toro Rosso killing people's reputations is not really an unpopular opinion... they have the Red Bull chassis (de facto, anyway) and a Ferrari engine, and still manage to suck. But are we sure it's the car that sucks ... ? ... or maybe the wheelholders?

They don't have a Red Bull chassis any more, or at least not in the sense of a customer car. For the moment, they do get their chassis designs from Red Bull Technology, but the design teams for Red Bull and Toro Rosso have to be independent, and have individual IP rights to the cars.
In the case of the 2010 car, Toro Rosso used the 2009 STR4 (which was in turn based on the RB5, albeit usually about 4-5 races or more behind the works outfit) as the basis for the STR5, hence the visual similarity between the Toro Rosso and Red Bull cars, but the significant difference in performance.

I do think, though, that the other big problem with Toro Rosso is that the team is slowly dying from neglect.

After all, Red Bull have been trying to sell the team off once customer cars were no longer permitted, and the budget for Toro Rosso seems to have remained static for a few years now. After all, we have seen the parent team become progressively richer (to the point where it is rumoured to have the biggest budget in the paddock, with over €300 million allocated for 2011), and the fact that it has coincided with a period of prolonged success.

It may not be entirely coincidental that the freezing of Toro Rosso's budget has coincided with a slide in that teams fortunes, even if they are given help from Red Bull Technology.

DanielPT wrote:And that leads to another unpopular opinion:

Toro Rosso can nurture talent. Proof? They delivered Sebastian Vettel!

If they want a better way of evaluating youngsters just put someone reliable in the other car. I happen know such driver and luckily he is available. He is called Nick.

It helped, though, that senior figures in Red Bull Racing, like Mateschitz, happened to have a soft spot for Vettel, and were determined to sign him for the parent team. If the senior management were different, and didn't have such an emotional attachment to Vettel, I wonder how he would have performed without the same level of attention and support.

Cynon wrote:

DanielPT wrote:Adrian Sutil is the most overrated F1 driver of recent times.

Fixed.

Hate you.

Mark Webber has peaked and was still outperformed by Vettel, Alonso and Lewis, especially when you consider that if 2010 had been conducted with the 2009 scoring system he would have finished 4th in the WDC behind Hamilton in a greatly inferior Mclaren.

thehemogoblin wrote:

Cynon wrote:

DanielPT wrote:Adrian Sutil is the most overrated F1 driver of recent times.

Fixed.

Hate you.

Love you too.

ElizabethSterling wrote:Mark Webber has peaked and was still outperformed by Vettel, Alonso and Lewis, especially when you consider that if 2010 had been conducted with the 2009 scoring system he would have finished 4th in the WDC behind Hamilton in a greatly inferior Mclaren.

Mark can be fast when injury free. The problem is that it doesn't happen that often. And, has he really peaked that this year? Or it will be in 2011?

So has it stands: A Mark Webber injury free is as fast as anyone in F1.

I really can't say I believe that. His 'leg issues' were an excuse being trotted out over half a year after the break and this shoulder thing was a rather convenient leak that happened after he lost that he tried his best to look modest on as far as I'm concerned. Did anyone give Kimi sympathy in his career for the back problems he suffered after his Monza '07 shunt? No, they did not. The man himself said the shoulder issue didn't affect his performance and that leads us to draw one of two conclusions: Mark is making excuses in the guise of putting a brave face on it or Mark wasn't affected, if it was a genuine concern he would have mentioned it before the fact. Now maybe, just maybe he was foolish enough to think that not mentioning an injury that was noticeably impacting his driving was a smart thing to do but if he did he miscalculated badly. Even if it was an issue it wouldn't explain his downright lousy performance at the season finale; he just didn't step up when he needed to.

Now Mark did work damn hard this season; he surprised me and many other people I know by driving at his absolute limit. The problem is Sebastian and Alonso were putting noticeably less effort in to be on the same pace as him and his high work rate showed when he just couldn't sustain it for the last few races. Credit where credit is due, he was the hardest working championship contender of 2010 but he just doesn't have the raw edge that Lewis, 'Nando and Seb have. I rate him above Jenson and a lot of other drivers but those three really are special individuals that will be remembered for a long, long time. Would he have been a deserving champion if he'd pulled it off? Yes, he really would have worked for it but he didn't pull it off, it was just a little too much to ask with Sebastian coming on-song in the latter half of the year, Lewis literally driving the wheels off of an inferior Mclaren on some occasions and Alonso in commanding form.

Now if you ask me Mark would be better served at another team... the only problem is no major team other than Red Bull really wants the guy. Mclaren have built their stable around Lewis, Ferrari and Alonso are a particularly good match and Vettel is Red Bull's prodigy. Lewis and especially someone as young as Vettel are just going to get better with time too most likely, Mark however is definitely in to the latter half of his F1 tenure. He'd make a fantastic dark horse choice for anyone who could put a package together to fight the big three and if Schumacher left Mercedes I'd say they should take the guy without a second thought but as it is they're 'team Germany' and seem likely to stay that way for the foreseeable future.

ElizabethSterling wrote:I really can't say I believe that. His 'leg issues' were an excuse being trotted out over half a year after the break and this shoulder thing was a rather convenient leak that happened after he lost that he tried his best to look modest on as far as I'm concerned. Did anyone give Kimi sympathy in his career for the back problems he suffered after his Monza '07 shunt? No, they did not. The man himself said the shoulder issue didn't affect his performance and that leads us to draw one of two conclusions: Mark is making excuses in the guise of putting a brave face on it or Mark wasn't affected, if it was a genuine concern he would have mentioned it before the fact. Now maybe, just maybe he was foolish enough to think that not mentioning an injury that was noticeably impacting his driving was a smart thing to do but if he did he miscalculated badly. Even if it was an issue it wouldn't explain his downright lousy performance at the season finale; he just didn't step up when he needed to.

Now Mark did work damn hard this season; he surprised me and many other people I know by driving at his absolute limit. The problem is Sebastian, Alonso and Lewis were putting noticeably less effort in to be on the same pace as him and his high work rate showed when he just couldn't sustain it for the last few races. Credit where credit is due, he was the hardest working championship contender of 2010 but he just doesn't have the raw edge that Lewis, 'Nando and Seb have. I rate him above Jenson and a lot of other drivers but those three really are special individuals that will be remembered for a long, long time.

Yes, he could have choked under pressure. But for Mark is it not that wise having those hobbies he likes so much hurting him all the time. I understand that the guy wanted to play down those injuries in order to keep living as he lives. I think that F1 is already very demanding on a healthy driver, so having even a slight injury or health problems should slow down anyone a few tenths easily. And that could also explain his Korea mistake. Or, back to the beginning, he really choked under pressure. It happens a lot. Even Alonso is can crack once or twice (this year it was his team, but Alonso wasn't being that fast either at the season finale). Also, I think that a driver that doesn't like a certain circuit doesn't perform as it could. And Mark doesn't seems to like Abu Dhabi.

It is true, Mark doesn't have the edge of natural speed that Vettel, Alonso or Hamilton have and I would not go as far to say that he was the hardest working. Yes, he works hard, but they all do nowadays (the top drivers at least). But Mark has great will and is, in my opinion, the strongest mentally of the quartet. With this, Mark had great victories in 2010. And to prove that he can be as fast as anyone else I will invoke his most recent Monaco performance. Absolutely faultless and most impressive. In the hardest driving circuit of them all.

I can agree with you on the pressure issue, Alonso did a similar nosedive to Mark's this year at the end of the 2007 season - it was almost uncanny in fact. People seem to forget Alonso's little slip-ups though because he uses the media as a self-promotion vehicle so much.

Fair point that Mark won at Monaco, that's not an achievement to be sniffed at. Mark definitely ranks in my top 5 of current drivers and I don't want to be too down on the guy but unless he finds an amazing car outside Ferrari, Red Bull and Mclaren I can't see him replicating this year's achievements. I recognise that most F1 drivers are extremely hard-working too but Mark resembled a man who was burning the candle at both ends so to speak - very taciturn save occasional emotional outbursts. There was some furious concentration going on, I think he was under more personal pressure than Seb or Alonso were.

I absolutely detest the hideous new Renault livery. It's crap.

The 2010 Mercedes had the least inspiring livery ever committed to an F1 car and the new one is a complete pig.

Shark fins are awesome, and look amazing. I really like the cars that use them, including the new Le Mans Prototypes.

JohnMLTX wrote:Shark fins are awesome, and look amazing. I really like the cars that use them, including the new Le Mans Prototypes.

I agree. Except for the Le Mans cars, they don't look quite as good.

JohnMLTX wrote:Shark fins are awesome, and look amazing. I really like the cars that use them, including the new Le Mans Prototypes.

It looks awful! But if there's some aerodynamic advantage to the shark fins, I'll manage...

AndreaModa wrote:I absolutely detest the hideous new Renault livery. It's crap.

THANK YOU!

I'll add something to the mix: Mark Webber will not win another race in his career. His best years are over, and I think he has blown it in 2010 and will not be close to winning in 2011.

Also, I still think Vettel as the clumsy one. Everybody seemed to forget in Belgium, taking out Jenson Button. I myself was pissed, because I hoped Jenson would win, but then again, it propelled Kubica into a podium position, which I was thankful for.

JeremyMcClean wrote:I'll add something to the mix: Mark Webber will not win another race in his career. His best years are over, and I think he has blown it in 2010 and will not be close to winning in 2011.

Oh, he will win, you will see. I can't see Red Bull stop challenging for victories this year. Mark will be up there. Perhaps not for the championship though...

ElizabethSterling wrote: I think he was under more personal pressure than Seb or Alonso were.

I totally agree with you here. Mark seems like a very demanding guy, especially of himself. I see him setting the bar really high and the going for it, probably cracking under his extreme pressure. Also, he started the championship with everyone thinking it was Vettel who would carry the Red Bull flag. It ended up that way, but only in the last couple of races. I think that when he performed the bar was raising to keep pushing, to improve, to carry his championship effort (I got the feeling at the time that he was quite isolated at Red Bull concerning his championship bid). Eventually it could have been too much. Despite this, and along the way, he proved himself to be on par with the best of them. We saw a few guys who also add a big car advantage and didn't delivered a real championship bid. I am thinking of Coulthard and Barrichello in a few seasons(especially with Brawn, scrapping with what were, during most of the season, slower Red Bulls). Mark was there and hopefully he will be there this season!

I looked at this topic and the only idea that came to my mind is that:

If YUJI IDE had a decent testing program, an up-to-date car (or at least something that was less than four years old) and some patience from media and supporters, I'm sure he'd do a lot better than Sakon Yamamoto.

Verde wrote:I looked at this topic and the only idea that came to my mind is that:

If YUJI IDE had a decent testing program, an up-to-date car (or at least something that was less than four years old) and some patience from media and supporters, I'm sure he'd do a lot better than Sakon Yamamoto.

I'm sure if Karun Chandhok had had pre-season testing he would've blown Bruno Senna away too.

Phoenix wrote:

Verde wrote:I looked at this topic and the only idea that came to my mind is that:

If YUJI IDE had a decent testing program, an up-to-date car (or at least something that was less than four years old) and some patience from media and supporters, I'm sure he'd do a lot better than Sakon Yamamoto.

I'm sure if Karun Chandhok had had pre-season testing he would've blown Bruno Senna away too.

100% agreed on Karun. Actually,on that note someone I knew ran a separate 'b-class' score table for the rookie teams under the 2010 scoring system, so only Virgin, HRT and Lotus were eligible to score. Karun had been by far and away the most reliable driver out there and at the time HRT dropped him he was actually leading that championship.

The Camel Lotus cars were better looking than the John Player Special Lotus cars.

Camels are better looking than dromedaries.

redbulljack14 wrote:The Camel Lotus cars were better looking than the John Player Special Lotus cars.

I agree with this sentiment entirely!

AndreaModa wrote:

redbulljack14 wrote:The Camel Lotus cars were better looking than the John Player Special Lotus cars.

I agree with this sentiment entirely!

I was expecting a lot of stick for my opinion.

redbulljack14 wrote:The Camel Lotus cars were better looking than the John Player Special Lotus cars.

Wrong, but it's a close call!

The Tomiya Lotuses were not ugly.

Phoenix wrote:Camels are better looking than dromedaries.

sorry to ruin your dreams, but dromedaries are a underspecies of camels

watka wrote:The Tamiya Lotuses were not ugly.

My god! I agree on that one too!

One that probably isn't that popular...

The Jordan 191 livery, whilst nice, is way too overrated.

AndreaModa wrote:

watka wrote:The Tamiya Lotuses were not ugly.

My god! I agree on that one too!

One that probably isn't that popular...

The Jordan 191 livery, whilst nice, is way too overrated.

I think the Jordan 191 is UGLY...

JeremyMcClean wrote:

AndreaModa wrote:

watka wrote:The Tamiya Lotuses were not ugly.

My god! I agree on that one too!

One that probably isn't that popular...

The Jordan 191 livery, whilst nice, is way too overrated.

I think the Jordan 191 is UGLY...

Agreed, Jeremy! I thought I was the only one here who thought so!

Bump...

On reflection, the 2005 season with the one-tyre rule brought us some of the best races in recent memory; namely San Marino, Europe, and Japan.

I never knew Ferrari engines could fail until the 2006 Japanese Grand Prix. That's why Schumacher's eighth title was lost.

Speaking of Schumacher, was I the only one who thought that he would not win in 2010?

JeremyMcClean wrote:Speaking of Schumacher, was I the only one who thought that he would not win in 2010?

To put it simply no.

Wizzie wrote:

JeremyMcClean wrote:Speaking of Schumacher, was I the only one who thought that he would not win in 2010?

To put it simply no.

Here's a long-form answer to the question:

NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

JeremyMcClean wrote:Speaking of Schumacher, was I the only one who thought that he would not win in 2010?

In fact you were in the majority.

JeremyMcClean wrote:Speaking of Schumacher, was I the only one who thought that he would not win in 2010?

To be honest, I was hoping he wouldn't but I wouldn't have put money on it. Glad he didn't even get a podium!

What do people think his best result of 2011 will be?

dr-baker wrote:

JeremyMcClean wrote:Speaking of Schumacher, was I the only one who thought that he would not win in 2010?

To be honest, I was hoping he wouldn't but I wouldn't have put money on it. Glad he didn't even get a podium!

What do people think his best result of 2011 will be?

To be honest,

8th place.

I'm not putting any money on it, though.

He will be more consistent but he will be outpaced by Ferrari, Red Bull, Renault, McLaren, maybe Williams, or Rosberg, etc.

coops wrote:Nobody cares that Ratzenberger was also killed at Imola '94

Sadly that may also be true. But I still remember him

dr-baker wrote:

JeremyMcClean wrote:Speaking of Schumacher, was I the only one who thought that he would not win in 2010?

To be honest, I was hoping he wouldn't but I wouldn't have put money on it. Glad he didn't even get a podium!

What do people think his best result of 2011 will be?

I think that the guy will fluke a podium. Which, incidentally, could be also an unpopular opinion!

dr-baker wrote:What do people think his best result of 2011 will be?

A third child?