Grand Prix Rejects

Two 'what ifs':

What would have happened if Hamilton and Alonso just got on fine, no issues at all? Who would have won the championship 2008, would have still been at Renault in 2008 etc etc

and also, when Alonso left McLaren, apparently Kovalainen was 'second choice'. Sebastian Vettel was the first. (German with German engine) What would happen at McLaren in 08-09 etc to the present day, and also, more importantly who would have been at RBR in that period.

David AGS wrote:Two 'what ifs':

What would have happened if Hamilton and Alonso just got on fine, no issues at all? Who would have won the championship 2008, would have still been at Renault in 2008 etc etc

and also, when Alonso left McLaren, apparently Kovalainen was 'second choice'. Sebastian Vettel was the first. (German with German engine) What would happen at McLaren in 08-09 etc to the present day, and also, more importantly who would have been at RBR in that period.

Intra-team relations perhaps affected enough that McLaren lost the WDC in 2007. And I think they would have taken 2008 too, with both Hamilton and Alonso having one title.

Renault would have had 2008 driver pairing as Kovalainen and Piquet jr. Not considered that good driver duo, not that much pressure and crashgate would have never happened.

Bleu wrote:

David AGS wrote:Two 'what ifs':

What would have happened if Hamilton and Alonso just got on fine, no issues at all? Who would have won the championship 2008, would have still been at Renault in 2008 etc etc

and also, when Alonso left McLaren, apparently Kovalainen was 'second choice'. Sebastian Vettel was the first. (German with German engine) What would happen at McLaren in 08-09 etc to the present day, and also, more importantly who would have been at RBR in that period.

Intra-team relations perhaps affected enough that McLaren lost the WDC in 2007. And I think they would have taken 2008 too, with both Hamilton and Alonso having one title.

Renault would have had 2008 driver pairing as Kovalainen and Piquet jr. Not considered that good driver duo, not that much pressure and crashgate would have never happened.

Toyota would also finish 4th ahead of Renault in the Constructors Championship.

David AGS wrote:and also, when Alonso left McLaren, apparently Kovalainen was 'second choice'. Sebastian Vettel was the first. (German with German engine) What would happen at McLaren in 08-09 etc to the present day, and also, more importantly who would have been at RBR in that period.

Vettel doesn't win the WDC at all. But, he does help them win the Constructors' in 2008. Hammo wins the WDC in '08.

Kovvie stays at Renault in '08, but now that there is no crashgate, Piquet has a better career (despite having an awful '09) and is still with Renault today, partnered with Petrov, who replaced Kubica after he got injured at a rallying race (but everybody knew that!)

In '09, Kovvie makes a smart move and goes to Red Bull. Now we are talking about a dominant season from a finnish driver...

------

What if Eddie Irvine stayed at Ferrari after 1999?

What if Kimi Raikkonen stayed at Ferrari after 2009? (And take it both ways with either Massa or Alonso partnering him)

(I'm quite surprised nobody asked this yet) What if Robert Kubica hadn't been involved in that rally incident near the beginning of the season?

JeremyMcClean wrote:
What if Eddie Irvine stayed at Ferrari after 1999?

What if Kimi Raikkonen stayed at Ferrari after 2009? (And take it both ways with either Massa or Alonso partnering him)

(I'm quite surprised nobody asked this yet) What if Robert Kubica hadn't been involved in that rally incident near the beginning of the season?

Eddie would have won more races, but would have been regulated to a number two driver like Barrachello was. He probably might have had a longer F1 career, and retired when the Ferraris faltered in 2005.

Ferrari would sack Massa due to his injuries, and hire Alonso as the full time driver in 2010. Ferrari would be more equal to the Red Bull team that year, but the relationship between Kimi and Alonso would be shattered almost immediately. Ferrari would win the constructors championship in 2010, but would lose the drivers championship to Mark Webber, who wins it by his virtue of greater consistency.

Robert would have have a car capable of winning podiums, but he would be unable to keep up with Vettel's dominance in 2011. As the season progresses, the car loses it's pace from the first quarter of the season, and will just regularly score in the top ten. But will finish ahead of Petrov more than usual.

A few more questions:

- What if Boutsen stays at Williams in 91?
- What if Mansell stays at Ferrari at 91?
- Would Alesi stay with Tyrrell?
- What if Tyrrell never have used Yamaha engines?
- What if BAR would have never existed? Would have Honda joined in 2000 as a factory team?
- What if Stewart would have kept his team in 2000?

- What if Boutsen stays at Williams in 91?
Retirement the next year, maybe a win or two.
- What if Mansell stays at Ferrari at 91?
A Ferrari career à-la-Lauda.
- Would Alesi stay with Tyrrell?
Yes, but after 91, Williams-Renault. nuff said. WDC or two.
- What if BAR would have never existed? Would have Honda joined in 2000 as a factory team?
Yes Toyota-style (big budget/driver lineup that comes to nothing), but the story of this team/entity is too much interesting. From reject to instant dominant WDC, to midfield-to-reject again.

What if Christian Horner had somehow made it to F1 as a driver?

Wizzie wrote:What if Christian Horner had somehow made it to F1 as a driver?

Minardi drive but doesn't get very far. I see a reject profile of him...

JeremyMcClean wrote:

Wizzie wrote:What if Christian Horner had somehow made it to F1 as a driver?

Minardi drive but doesn't get very far. I see a reject profile of him...

I guess I agree with you there. A Luca Badoer sort of career. Isnt he still younger than Schumi??

stupot94 wrote:

Loving the sponsorship from 'Elisabeth the chef'!

Phoenix wrote:

stupot94 wrote:What if the race team Life* (for some unknown reason against the forces of nature) qualified for a race then due to high rates of attrition won the race?

*(Use whichever reject team you want)

*blue screen with some menacing script*

The first 60 pages of MacBeth?

On the subject of GP2, what if Luca Filippi were in Scuderia Coloni the entire season? How many more points would he have scored? Would HE, not Romain Grosjean, have been champion?

Shizuka wrote:A few more questions:

- What if Boutsen stays at Williams in 91?
- What if Mansell stays at Ferrari at 91?
- Would Alesi stay with Tyrrell?
- What if Tyrrell never have used Yamaha engines?
- What if BAR would have never existed? Would have Honda joined in 2000 as a factory team?
- What if Stewart would have kept his team in 2000?

1. Assuming the below do not happen, Boutsen were forced to driver car 6, with Mansell at car 5. Patrese was forced to retire.
2. Prost would jump ship from Ferrari due to fiery rivalry and took sabbatical a year early as he unable to find a team. The line up is: #27 Mansell, #28 Alesi (assuming the below do not happen too)
3. He would advantaged from Honda powerplant in 1991. However, 1992 turned out struggling with de Crasheris and Ilmor powerplant and moves to Williams in 93 with Hill, so Prost retires completely.
4. Katayama and the Cabin/Mild Seven money would never came and they would run Ford-Cosworthes until the end of the team.
5. Honda buys out Tyrrell in 1998 and put Takagi and Verstappen for that year (but Verstappen is replaced with Magnussen when he's fired from Stewart). The following year, Takagi is fired due to mediocre performance and replaced with Shinji Nakano, with Nakano escaping rejectdom! And Verstappen returns. The rest? Up and downhill season, but they won a GP in 2005 and 2006 (the latter is like reality ). Then the same thing: qutting at the end of 2008...
6. Same up-and-downhill season. Barrichello and Irvine swapped rides, as usual. The rest are same.

stupot94 wrote:I guess I agree with you there. A Luca Badoer sort of career. Isnt he still younger than Schumi??

No. He used to be, but he overtook Schumi last year with 3 birthdays...

dr-baker wrote:

stupot94 wrote:I guess I agree with you there. A Luca Badoer sort of career. Isnt he still younger than Schumi??

No. He used to be, but he overtook Schumi last year with 3 birthdays...

Is this Luca we are talking about?

My mistake I didnt make myself clear. I meant Christian And as a matter of fact he is younger than Schumi (and Badoer)

stupot94 wrote:

dr-baker wrote:

stupot94 wrote:I guess I agree with you there. A Luca Badoer sort of career. Isnt he still younger than Schumi??

No. He used to be, but he overtook Schumi last year with 3 birthdays...

Is this Luca we are talking about?

My mistake I didnt make myself clear. I meant Christian And as a matter of fact he is younger than Schumi (and Badoer)

I think I got myself misunderstood too. Is he STILL younger? Well, if he was younger to start off with, then he will still be younger than SHUMI NOW... And I assume that it is Christian to whom we are referring, with Badoer as an analogy.

dr-baker wrote:

stupot94 wrote:

Is this Luca we are talking about?

My mistake I didnt make myself clear. I meant Christian And as a matter of fact he is younger than Schumi (and Badoer)

I think I got myself misunderstood too. Is he STILL younger? Well, if he was younger to start off with, then he will still be younger than SHUMI NOW... And I assume that it is Christian to whom we are referring, with Badoer as an analogy.

Yes

Bleu wrote:What if Benetton had not poached Michael Schumacher after one race with Jordan, and instead Schumacher would have stayed with Jordan until the end of 1993 for example?

If he saw out 1991 with Jordan, he would've impressed enough that he'd have been picked up by a bigger team, probably before or during 1992 given that Jordan were tight on money that season and might have accepted a few quid for Schumacher's contract. He might have ended up at McLaren in 1993 instead of Hakkinen either.

But, let's say he somehow stayed at Jordan until the end of 1993. I reckon he still would've impressed by dragging the 192 and 193 into a few points finishes it didn't deserve, so he's being looked at by bigger teams. As a side effect of the extra points Schumacher gets them, Jordan are a little bit closer to the front in the mid-late 90s, but still peak in 99 or 2000 and decline from there.
I reckon the most likely destinations for Schumacher in 1994 would be Benetton, considering that even with him there, they decided to run an open test for a driver for that season in real life, or McLaren considering Brundle wasn't dropped from Benetton in 1993, is likely still there and not on the market.

If he goes to Benetton, the B194 isn't built around him, so he doesn't win the '94 WDC, and probably not the '95 one either. But he does get podiums and race wins. He stays (and consequently, Benetton's key technical staff stay) until 1996 or 1997, and possibly wins a WDC in one of those seasons before upping sticks to Ferrari, taking Brawn, Byrne etc with him. So basically, he has the same career with a delay of a couple of years, and probably wins 4 or 5 WDCs instead of 7.

If he goes to McLaren, he continues to impress in dodgy machinery until '97 when McLaren become capable of race wins, at which point he's an outside bet for the WDC until the last few rounds. He then battles his team-mate Hakkinen for the 98 and 99 WDCs, and comes out on top both times. Hakkinen retires without a WDC that his talent deserves. With Ferrari unable to dominate 2000-2004 because he's not there, he picks at least a couple more WDCs (possibly more) at McLaren in the 2000s, dueling with Montoya a couple of seasons and possibly whoevers at Ferrari (Villeneuve poached from Williams after a poor 1998, maybe?) once or twice too. Possibly Benetton get in or around challenging the WDC and WCC in the late 90s since they keep their technical staff, but they wouldn't have the Schumacher factor, and to be honest it's too complicated to factor in, especially since I have no idea who'd end up driving for them - Berger and Alesi probably don't go there in 1996 since Schumacher isn't displacing them by moving to Ferrari.

On another point, I'm not going down the "SCHUMACHER AND BENETTON'S CHEATING KILLED SENNA!!!" route that you occasionally see in UToob comments, but there is a possibility that with Schumacher not putting him away in the first two races, Senna isn't pushing quite as desperately hard in San Marino and isn't killed. If that's the case, then he likely wins the '94 and '95 WDCs before going to Ferrari for a couple of years, maybe challenging for a championship before retiring. Of course, maybe being Senna he'd have pushed insanely and been killed anyway. In which case Hill probably wins both of those seasons with Berger (in 94) and Coulthard (in 95) as his main challengers. That could potentially lead to him winning 4 WDCs in a row before retiring at the end of 1998.

So... tl;dr.

Schumacher at Benetton in 94, Senna Lives:
1994: Senna (Williams)
1995: Senna (Williams)
1996: Hill (Williams) or Schumacher (Benetton)
1997: Villeneuve (Williams), Senna (Ferrari) or Schumacher (Benetton)
1998: Hakkinen (McLaren)
1999: Hakkinen (McLaren)
2000: Schumacher (Ferrari)
2001: Schumacher (Ferrari) or Hakkinen (McLaren)
2002: Schumacher (Ferrari)
2003: Montoya (Williams)
2004: Schumacher (Ferrari)

Schumacher at Benetton in '94, Senna is killed:
1994: Hill (Williams)
1995: Hill (Williams)
1996: Hill (Williams) or Schumacher (Benetton)
1997: Hill (Williams) or Schumacher (Benetton)
1998: Hakkinen (McLaren)
1999: Hakkinen (McLaren)
2000: Schumacher (Ferrari)
2001: Schumacher (Ferrari) or Hakkinen (McLaren)
2002: Schumacher (Ferrari)
2003: Montoya (Williams)
2004: Schumacher (Ferrari)

Schumacher at McLaren in '94, Senna lives:
1994: Senna (Williams)
1995: Senna (Williams)
1996: Hill (Williams)
1997: Villeneuve (Williams) or Senna (Ferrari)
1998: Schumacher (McLaren)
1999: Schumacher (McLaren)
2000: Schumacher (McLaren)
2001: Schumacher (McLaren) or Villeneuve (Ferrari)
2002: Schumacher (McLaren), Villeneuve (Ferrari) or Montoya (Williams)
2003: Schumacher (McLaren), Villeneuve (Ferrari) or Montoya (Williams)
2004: Schumacher (McLaren) or Villeneuve (Ferrari)

Schumacher at McLaren in '94, Senna is killed:
1994: Hill (Williams)
1995: Hill (Williams)
1996: Hill (Williams)
1997: Hill (Williams)
1998: Schumacher (McLaren)
1999: Schumacher (McLaren)
2000: Schumacher (McLaren)
2001: Schumacher (McLaren) or Villeneuve (Ferrari)
2002: Schumacher (McLaren), Villeneuve (Ferrari) or Montoya (Williams)
2003: Schumacher (McLaren), Villeneuve (Ferrari) or Montoya (Williams)
2004: Schumacher (McLaren) or Villeneuve (Ferrari)

Enforcer wrote:Schumacher at Benetton in '94, Senna is killed:
1994: Hill (Williams)
1995: Hill (Williams)
1996: Hill (Williams) or Schumacher (Benetton)
1997: Hill (Williams) or Schumacher (Benetton)
1998: Hakkinen (McLaren)
1999: Hakkinen (McLaren)
2000: Schumacher (Ferrari)
2001: Schumacher (Ferrari) or Hakkinen (McLaren)
2002: Schumacher (Ferrari)
2003: Montoya (Williams)
2004: Schumacher (Ferrari)

You seem to have made your own future over a situation which did already have an ending. Only one downside Senna is still killed. and the upside is Schumacher wasnt that dominant.

What if Carlos Reutteman didn't have a fall-out with Frank Williams, and finished his season in 1982?

What if Chris Amon took that Brabham drive, instead of hanging on to his own team in 1974?

What if Peter Revson hadn't been killed at Kyalami in 1974?

What if Ligier had a better budget in 1979?

What if the FISA's breakaway series "World Federation of Motorsport", had worked?

DOSBoot wrote:What if Carlos Reutteman didn't have a fall-out with Frank Williams, and finished his season in 1982?

He quite possibly wins the Championship. He was 40 at that stage though, so I don't think he'd have stayed very long into the Honda era at Williams. Also, Tommy Byrne makes his debut somewhere other than Theodore since Daly doesn't move to Williams.

Was thinking about the Schumacher remaining at Jordan thing again and remembered that Sauber had a deal that they could take him if they ever entered F1. They tried to invoke it when they did that in 1993, but Schumacher said he wasn't interested and they didn't force the issue. But if instead of being at competitive Benetton he'd been at the struggling Jordan team in 1992, he might have taken his chances with Sauber. He goes to Sauber in 93, impresses there into '94, and then either follows the Mercedes engines to McLaren in 1995, or remains at Suaber until Williams sign him instead of Frentzen in 1997 - leaving him to promptly destroy Villeneuve in the WDC.

Enforcer wrote:

DOSBoot wrote:What if Carlos Reutteman didn't have a fall-out with Frank Williams, and finished his season in 1982?

He quite possibly wins the Championship. He was 40 at that stage though, so I don't think he'd have stayed very long into the Honda era at Williams. Also, Tommy Byrne makes his debut somewhere other than Theodore since Daly doesn't move to Williams.

It's also possible that, if relations between Carlos and Frank were relatively friendly during the early 1980's, that he might have also taken the title in 1981 - Williams were hurt quite badly due to internal fighting, so although they probably had a superior car to Brabham, they failed to capitalise on it. I agree, though, that he'd have probably have left the team fairly shortly after 1982, even if he did win the title, so it'd have had little long term impact.

DOSBoot wrote:What if Ligier had a better budget in 1979?

It's possible that Ligier could have solved some of the problems with their car that saw them fall back later in the season, although the problems hindering their development were not only financial (a loss of wind tunnel time after they changed from one wind tunnel to another mid season, coupled with time wasted in calibrating the new tunnel, and flexing of the underbody tunnels).

At the very least, it is likely that the car would probably have been more refined in the off season, so they might have remained ahead of their rivals for a bit longer and taken one or two more wins, though it's likely that Williams and Ferrari would probably have beaten them by the end of the season anyway (Williams thanks to a more refined design, and Ferrari through their superior reliability and power).

WeirdKerr wrote:

watka wrote:What if Graham Hill's heli never crashed?

Damon Hill would have got a drive 4 years earlier

dnhrudi wrote:

WeirdKerr wrote:

watka wrote:What if Graham Hill's heli never crashed?

Damon Hill would have got a drive 4 years earlier

And never been champion because Williams would've gone with someone else since Hill was busy filling a seat somewhere in the back of the grid.

DanielPT wrote:

dnhrudi wrote:

watka wrote:What if Graham Hill's heli never crashed?

Damon Hill would have got a drive 4 years earlier

And never been champion because Williams would've gone with someone else since Hill was busy filling a seat somewhere in the back of the grid.

This is assuming that he would have been driving for his dad's team and happy to remain there. And assuming that the Hill team would have been on a par with where Brabham were when Damon really did make his debut, filling a seat somewhere in the back of the grid.

This thread needs a serious bump, so here it comes:

What if...
...Tony Stewart decided to stay with Open-Wheel Racing?
...IRL and CART kept common cars after 1996?
...Tony George didn't secede from CART at all?
...Greg Moore survived his accident at Fontana?
...ChampCar won the "war" over the IRL?
...the majority of the IndyCar field was American?

Ferrarist wrote:What if...
...Tony Stewart decided to stay with Open-Wheel Racing?

Tons of IRL titles, still no Indy 500 wins or CART titles. Made his debut during the 1996 Indy 500 with Team Menard but since it's Team Menard he isn't perceived as much of a threat. Despite his IRL success, he flops in CART.

Ferrarist wrote:...IRL and CART kept common cars after 1996?

CART teams demolish the Indy 500 and win it every year from 1998 onwards. Merger between the two series happens in 2003 instead of in 2008.

Ferrarist wrote:...Tony George didn't secede from CART at all?

CART takes over from F1 as the premier single-seater series in the world because of its versatility and its lack of internal politics after proving to the world that the racing was superior in CART than it was in F1. It was on the fast track to doing that on its own anyway before 2002.

Ferrarist wrote:...Greg Moore survived his accident at Fontana?

(Assuming that the accident was just a Richie Hearn-esque spin and not a flip from here on out) Moore wins Indy 4 times and is still driving car #3 for Roger Penske. Helio Castroneves on the other hand was eventually picked up by Chip Ganassi, and despite winning Indy once, is usually seen as the rival that Moore regularly beats.

Ferrarist wrote:...ChampCar won the "war" over the IRL?

Two people are killed because of the DP01 at Indy and at other high speed ovals.

Ferrarist wrote:...the majority of the IndyCar field was American?

NASCAR stays second to IndyCar.

Cynon wrote:

Ferrarist wrote:...Tony George didn't secede from CART at all?

CART takes over from F1 as the premier single-seater series in the world because of its versatility and its lack of internal politics after proving to the world that the racing was superior in CART than it was in F1. It was on the fast track to doing that on its own anyway before 2002

For some reason I really don't buy that, but I am more than willing to hear an explanation for this theory.

Klon wrote:

Cynon wrote:

Ferrarist wrote:...Tony George didn't secede from CART at all?

CART takes over from F1 as the premier single-seater series in the world because of its versatility and its lack of internal politics after proving to the world that the racing was superior in CART than it was in F1. It was on the fast track to doing that on its own anyway before 2002

For some reason I really don't buy that, but I am more than willing to hear an explanation for this theory.

I know you're going to debunk me, but as far as I know, CART IndyCar + the Indy 500 were experiencing immense growth in the 90s. Please take a look at this:

1990 Viewing Figures

NASCAR Winston Cup 29 events 3,336,675 +209,545
PPG Indy Car World Series 16 events 2,616,115 +335,065
FIA Formula One 16 events 2,616,300 +270,800

The PPG Indy Car World Series continued to experience growth. 1990 attendance grew by 14.7 percent over 1989. the 16 Indy Car races attracted 2,616,115 spectators, up 2,281,050 in 1989. Since the IMS operates at near capacity for the Indy 500,CART's 24.5 percent attendance increase for 15 races accounted for the most of the 1990 gains (of all sanctioning bodies) ICR Jan. 28, 1991 This Goodyear attendance figures clearly shows CART was steadily growing. In comparison to having half as many races as NASCAR the attendance was fairly close and was virtually neck and neck with F1. Since 1995 after the split CART's numbers have consistently slid. The IRL's were horrendous in comparison to anything when they started in 96' and now aren't hardly any better in comparison to CART as of now. The split has virtually put OW off of the radar yet CART's on track product is second to none in the world and consistently stays that way. 10-11 different winners every year. Awesome Championship battles, and the racing is all that really matters when it comes down to it. Dario Franchitti's and Juan Montoya's 1999 championship points battle went down to the last race that year. The race ended with them tied. Juan won by the tie breaker..he had more wins that year. Same with 1985, last race Al Unser Sr. passes his son Al Unser Jr. late in the race by one position he won the title by one point. That's CART! Great racing and championships!

In 1991, IndyCar attracted a record 2,806,801 spectators in 1991 up 7.3% from 2,616,115 last year. Much of the increase was accounted for by the construction of a new infield reserved bleacher section along the back straight at Indy and the addition of the Surfers Paradise season opener in Australia. A tight points battle helped the IndyCar series attract record numbers at nine venues, including the season finale at Laguna Seca where the Friday and Saturday crowds were the largest in track history.

In 1993 IndyCar was televised in 90 different countries, more widely distributed than the NFL, NBA. tennis, golf, world soccer-even Formula 1. In 1992, the Indy 500 alone attracted 14 million television viewers just in the U.S.-and that's one of 16 PPG Indy Car World Series events. Would the Indy 500 be as big as Monday Night Football? (ABC claimed an average of 49.5 million viewers tuned into some part of the three-hour game.) Perhaps not. But Pro Football isn't a universal sport, while racing cars seems to interest men and woman. Those were impressive numbers for CART. 90 different countries! Half as many races as NASCAR and the average attendance was more than NASCAR. This was 4 years before the IRl. CART was growing. The IRL isn't the reason for the slump as a direct competiton to CART because the IRL has abysmal numbers as well and their product being all ovals is inferior to CART. The slump is from the damage that has been done from the split/war. I believe CART lost more fans to NASCAR or they just left racing all together.

Let's not forget all the big names from outside who came into IndyCar. Fittipaldi, Mansell, Piquet. Think of all the other 'Internationals' with some pedigree; Johansson, de Ferran, Zanardi. Think of all those who would become stars in F1; Montoya, Villeneuve. Couple this with a engine/chassis war which wasn't F1-style 2002/2004, and this was almost the perfect racing series in the world.

Now, the question was, what would have happened without Tony George seceeding. Well, if the HG's just had shut up and let CART run the show, then yes, I have to agree, that with the growth that had been occuring up until 1996, CART would have eventually taken F1 over as the most popular and premier series in the world. Without the split, the 2002 season was all that CART would have needed to kick F1 in the nuts. Need one be reminded of the 2002 F1 season?

Jeroen Krautmeir wrote:

1990 Viewing Figures

NASCAR Winston Cup 29 events 3,336,675 +209,545
PPG Indy Car World Series 16 events 2,616,115 +335,065
FIA Formula One 16 events 2,616,300 +270,800

The PPG Indy Car World Series continued to experience growth. 1990 attendance grew by 14.7 percent over 1989. the 16 Indy Car races attracted 2,616,115 spectators, up 2,281,050 in 1989. Since the IMS operates at near capacity for the Indy 500,CART's 24.5 percent attendance increase for 15 races accounted for the most of the 1990 gains (of all sanctioning bodies) ICR Jan. 28, 1991 This Goodyear attendance figures clearly shows CART was steadily growing. In comparison to having half as many races as NASCAR the attendance was fairly close and was virtually neck and neck with F1. Since 1995 after the split CART's numbers have consistently slid. The IRL's were horrendous in comparison to anything when they started in 96' and now aren't hardly any better in comparison to CART as of now. The split has virtually put OW off of the radar yet CART's on track product is second to none in the world and consistently stays that way. 10-11 different winners every year. Awesome Championship battles, and the racing is all that really matters when it comes down to it. Dario Franchitti's and Juan Montoya's 1999 championship points battle went down to the last race that year. The race ended with them tied. Juan won by the tie breaker..he had more wins that year. Same with 1985, last race Al Unser Sr. passes his son Al Unser Jr. late in the race by one position he won the title by one point. That's CART! Great racing and championships!

In 1991, IndyCar attracted a record 2,806,801 spectators in 1991 up 7.3% from 2,616,115 last year. Much of the increase was accounted for by the construction of a new infield reserved bleacher section along the back straight at Indy and the addition of the Surfers Paradise season opener in Australia. A tight points battle helped the IndyCar series attract record numbers at nine venues, including the season finale at Laguna Seca where the Friday and Saturday crowds were the largest in track history.

In 1993 IndyCar was televised in 90 different countries, more widely distributed than the NFL, NBA. tennis, golf, world soccer-even Formula 1. In 1992, the Indy 500 alone attracted 14 million television viewers just in the U.S.-and that's one of 16 PPG Indy Car World Series events. Would the Indy 500 be as big as Monday Night Football? (ABC claimed an average of 49.5 million viewers tuned into some part of the three-hour game.) Perhaps not. But Pro Football isn't a universal sport, while racing cars seems to interest men and woman. Those were impressive numbers for CART. 90 different countries! Half as many races as NASCAR and the average attendance was more than NASCAR. This was 4 years before the IRl. CART was growing. The IRL isn't the reason for the slump as a direct competiton to CART because the IRL has abysmal numbers as well and their product being all ovals is inferior to CART. The slump is from the damage that has been done from the split/war. I believe CART lost more fans to NASCAR or they just left racing all together.

Let's not forget all the big names from outside who came into IndyCar. Fittipaldi, Mansell, Piquet. Think of all the other 'Internationals' with some pedigree; Johansson, de Ferran, Zanardi. Think of all those who would become stars in F1; Montoya, Villeneuve. Couple this with a engine/chassis war which wasn't F1-style 2002/2004, and this was almost the perfect racing series in the world.

Now, the question was, what would have happened without Tony George seceeding. Well, if the HG's just had shut up and let CART run the show, then yes, I have to agree, that with the growth that had been occuring up until 1996, CART would have eventually taken F1 over as the most popular and premier series in the world. Without the split, the 2002 season was all that CART would have needed to kick F1 in the nuts. Need one be reminded of the 2002 F1 season?

Beat me to that.

What if Valentino Rossi made the jump from MotoGP to Formula 1 at the end of 2006? Schumacher himself said after a pre-season test at Valencia that Rossi was capable of making the jump to F1 and being competitive immediately.

Cynon wrote:

Ferrarist wrote:...Greg Moore survived his accident at Fontana?

(Assuming that the accident was just a Richie Hearn-esque spin and not a flip from here on out) Moore wins Indy 4 times and is still driving car #3 for Roger Penske. Helio Castroneves on the other hand was eventually picked up by Chip Ganassi, and despite winning Indy once, is usually seen as the rival that Moore regularly beats

Wasn't he en route to F1?

Myrvold wrote:

Cynon wrote:

Ferrarist wrote:...Greg Moore survived his accident at Fontana?

(Assuming that the accident was just a Richie Hearn-esque spin and not a flip from here on out) Moore wins Indy 4 times and is still driving car #3 for Roger Penske. Helio Castroneves on the other hand was eventually picked up by Chip Ganassi, and despite winning Indy once, is usually seen as the rival that Moore regularly beats

Wasn't he en route to F1?

Not in his immediate future as he had a contract with Roger Penske in his back pocket at the time.

What if Ferrari never gave Massa the order to move over in Germany last year? Could Massa have captured something from it and taken the fight to Fernando?

Wizzie wrote:What if Ferrari never gave Massa the order to move over in Germany last year? Could Massa have captured something from it and taken the fight to Fernando?

No, he'd have probably been more competitive this year though, as his spirit may not have fully been broken.

What if McLaren decided to give Lewis Hamilton a years testing before a debut in 2008?

IdeFan wrote:What if McLaren decided to give Lewis Hamilton a years testing before a debut in 2008?

No inter-team fighting in 07 so Alonso wins title easily. Massa still wins title in 08, thanks to an inexperienced Hamilton binning it a few times. Button and Brawn still win titles in 09, but Hamilton enjoyed his best season, finishing as runner-up. Same story in 2010, Vettel still wins title with Hamilton runner-up.

AdrianSutil wrote:

IdeFan wrote:What if McLaren decided to give Lewis Hamilton a years testing before a debut in 2008?

No inter-team fighting in 07 so Alonso wins title easily. Massa still wins title in 08, thanks to an inexperienced Hamilton binning it a few times.

Binning, he didn't do it a lot during his actual rookie season. He was nearly flawless before China...

Ferrim wrote:

AdrianSutil wrote:

IdeFan wrote:What if McLaren decided to give Lewis Hamilton a years testing before a debut in 2008?

No inter-team fighting in 07 so Alonso wins title easily. Massa still wins title in 08, thanks to an inexperienced Hamilton binning it a few times.

Binning, he didn't do it a lot during his actual rookie season. He was nearly flawless before China...

I still think Hamilton 'progress' since his rookie year is weird. Most drivers learn how to avoid crashes and go from crash-prone to mature 'let's finish the races first' kind of driver instead the other way around. The most mature drives I saw from Hamilton came from his first year. How crazy is that?