Grand Prix Rejects

dinizintheoven wrote:Technically, Toyota ran an asymmetric livery - yes, it was mainly red and white, but the stripe than ran diagonally across the nose made it asymmetric. See: TF102, TF103, TF104, TF105, TF106, TF107 - they all had that diagonal stripe. At least, other than that, the livery was the same on both sides.

...and they brought it back on the TF109 as well.

And technically, aren't all liveries non-symetrical because of whatever advert/word(s) is written across the rear wing?

dr-baker wrote:

dinizintheoven wrote:Technically, Toyota ran an asymmetric livery - yes, it was mainly red and white, but the stripe than ran diagonally across the nose made it asymmetric. See: TF102, TF103, TF104, TF105, TF106, TF107 - they all had that diagonal stripe. At least, other than that, the livery was the same on both sides.

...and they brought it back on the TF109 as well.

And technically, aren't all liveries non-symetrical because of whatever advert/word(s) is written across the rear wing?

i think as long as the livery uses the same basic elements on each side then its ok....

JeremyMcClean wrote:Who cares?

Well that's a lovely sentiment.

My opinion is, that rule is stupid. I agree with Jeroen, who cares? In fact, they could have allowed BAR to run a livery for each car in 1999, it was a stupid ban. And, furthermore, I think teams should have a limited number of possible livery changes during a season to attract more sponsorship. I think that'd be helpful, especially for smaller teams.

Phoenix wrote:My opinion is, that rule is stupid. I agree with Jeroen, who cares? In fact, they could have allowed BAR to run a livery for each car in 1999, it was a stupid ban. And, furthermore, I think teams should have a limited number of possible livery changes during a season to attract more sponsorship. I think that'd be helpful, especially for smaller teams.

Same here. It doesn´t hurt anyone.

And, IIRC, teams are allowed to change livery during season.

For example, this was Williams´ livery for 2010


Teams are allowed slight changes, like in this, painting the white part on the airbox blue.

To make radical changes, like changing from blue to green, they need approval from other teams...

Phoenix wrote:My opinion is, that rule is stupid. I agree with Jeroen, who cares? In fact, they could have allowed BAR to run a livery for each car in 1999, it was a stupid ban. And, furthermore, I think teams should have a limited number of possible livery changes during a season to attract more sponsorship. I think that'd be helpful, especially for smaller teams.

I didn't say anything, but that is my opinion as well. I'm all in for AOW-style seperate liveries.

AOW- American open wheel

shinji wrote:

JeremyMcClean wrote:Who cares?

Well that's a lovely sentiment.

This is ponderbox right? so let me ponder... not saying I agree with that rule, just pointing out there is one

And re this-Anyways, I have a question about GP2; why is Abu Dhabi a non-championship round?

If you mean the November event it has been organized to mark the merger of GP2 and GP2 Asia from 2012, allegedly to remove branding confusion between the 2 series. The reality is is that GP 2 Asia has died on it's arse because no one has given a damn about it apart from the Arabians because for what it is it's too expensive. Re branding confusion claims, who they think it has confused is frankly beyond me, a six year old could work it out......
What this is gonna do is push a drivers budget for GP2 well beyond 3 million bucks for a season, so look forward to a grid full of Pedro Diniz's...The next generation of Grand Prix drivers boys and girls. oh lucky us.

Why do people want Robert Kubica to drive in Brazil? Are you bathplug crazy? I can't wait to see Kubica back in an F1 car, but he needs time to test, and he won't be afforded that until the offseason. Rather than allowing people to set unrealistic expectations on return at the end of 2010, we should all just be patient, let him develop the 2011 car, and THEN after a year of recovery he'll have a fair shot at showing the world he's lost none of his brilliance.

They say Stirling Moss had his confidence ruined by trying to get back in racecar to soon after his crash. I don't want that to happen to my favorite F1 driver.

F1000X wrote:Why do people want Robert Kubica to drive in Brazil? Are you bathplug crazy? I can't wait to see Kubica back in an F1 car, but he needs time to test, and he won't be afforded that until the offseason. Rather than allowing people to set unrealistic expectations on return at the end of 2010, we should all just be patient, let him develop the 2011 car, and THEN after a year of recovery he'll have a fair shot at showing the world he's lost none of his brilliance.

They say Stirling Moss had his confidence ruined by trying to get back in racecar to soon after his crash. I don't want that to happen to my favorite F1 driver.

I agree, seen this happen too many times

dnhrudi wrote:

shinji wrote:

JeremyMcClean wrote:Who cares?

Well that's a lovely sentiment.

This is ponderbox right? so let me ponder... not saying I agree with that rule, just pointing out there is one

And re this-Anyways, I have a question about GP2; why is Abu Dhabi a non-championship round?

If you mean the November event it has been organized to mark the merger of GP2 and GP2 Asia from 2012, allegedly to remove branding confusion between the 2 series. The reality is is that GP 2 Asia has died on it's arse because no one has given a damn about it apart from the Arabians because for what it is it's too expensive. Re branding confusion claims, who they think it has confused is frankly beyond me, a six year old could work it out......
What this is gonna do is push a drivers budget for GP2 well beyond 3 million bucks for a season, so look forward to a grid full of Pedro Diniz's...The next generation of Grand Prix drivers boys and girls. oh lucky us.

To be honest, increasing numbers of pay drivers have already been cropping up in Formula 1, to the extent that Trulli said that he now considers that the era of a driver making it into Formula 1 on pure merit is gone.

After all, let's take a look at the new drivers in the past few years:
Jaime Alguersuari (mid 2009)
Sebastian Buemi
Romain Grosjean (mid 2009)
Kamui Kobayashi (late 2009)

Now, out of those from 2009, Buemi and Alguersuari came straight from Red Bull's Young Driver Program, and were effectively groomed for their respective roles (though Alguersuari got an early call up after Bourdais was pushed out), Kobayashi was from Toyota's Young Driver Program and Grosjean from Renault's Young Driver Program. Speaking of Kobayashi, there was a rumour back in 2009 that he was only given the drive because the Toyota Motorsport Group was hoping that having a young Japanese driver would prevent the parent company cutting back, though, if true, evidently it didn't work out.
Incidentally, it's worth mentioning that Renault is currently being wooed by motorsport interests in France in an attempt to push them into signing Grosjean in return for French sponsorship - seemingly hoping that a French driver, and increased French interest, could lead to a revival of the French GP (so, if he does return, it'll be more than likely that his seat will have been bought for him).

As for 2010:
Karun Chandhok
Lucas Di Grassi
Nico Hulkenberg
Vitaly Petrov
Bruno Senna

Apart from Hulkenberg, who seems to have earned his seat by impressing Sir Frank and Head in the lower series, all of the others seem to have smoothed their entries into their respective teams with personal sponsorship deals (Bruno Senna, for example, seems to have been linked with Embratel, for example). And, of course, that ignores Yamamoto and Klien getting seat time for commercial reasons (though I've not included them as Yamamoto was an existing pay driver, and Klien was mainly used to set up the F110).

And in 2011, we have:
Jérôme d'Ambrosio
Paul di Resta
Pastor Maldonado
Sergio Pérez

And, again, all of the above individuals have brought sponsorship to their teams (Perez brought Telmex, Maldonado PDVSA etc.) to smooth their entry into the sport (apart from Di Resta, as Mercedes are instead subsidising his seat at Force India by cutting the price of their KERS and engine package, or at least they are strongly rumoured to be doing so). And, of course, that ignores Narain Karthikeyan (who had been bringing in Tata), though now Ricciardo has pushed him almost out of his seat (save for the Indian GP) - of course, the fact that Ricciardo happens to be a Red Bull driver has helped enormously.

mario wrote:To be honest, increasing numbers of pay drivers have already been cropping up in Formula 1, to the extent that Trulli said that he now considers that the era of a driver making it into Formula 1 on pure merit is gone.

After all, let's take a look at the new drivers in the past few years:
Jaime Alguersuari (mid 2009)
Sebastian Buemi
Romain Grosjean (mid 2009)
Kamui Kobayashi (late 2009)

Now, out of those from 2009, Buemi and Alguersuari came straight from Red Bull's Young Driver Program, and were effectively groomed for their respective roles (though Alguersuari got an early call up after Bourdais was pushed out), Kobayashi was from Toyota's Young Driver Program and Grosjean from Renault's Young Driver Program. Speaking of Kobayashi, there was a rumour back in 2009 that he was only given the drive because the Toyota Motorsport Group was hoping that having a young Japanese driver would prevent the parent company cutting back, though, if true, evidently it didn't work out.
Incidentally, it's worth mentioning that Renault is currently being wooed by motorsport interests in France in an attempt to push them into signing Grosjean in return for French sponsorship - seemingly hoping that a French driver, and increased French interest, could lead to a revival of the French GP (so, if he does return, it'll be more than likely that his seat will have been bought for him).

As for 2010:
Karun Chandhok
Lucas Di Grassi
Nico Hulkenberg
Vitaly Petrov
Bruno Senna

Apart from Hulkenberg, who seems to have earned his seat by impressing Sir Frank and Head in the lower series, all of the others seem to have smoothed their entries into their respective teams with personal sponsorship deals (Bruno Senna, for example, seems to have been linked with Embratel, for example). And, of course, that ignores Yamamoto and Klien getting seat time for commercial reasons (though I've not included them as Yamamoto was an existing pay driver, and Klien was mainly used to set up the F110).

And in 2011, we have:
Jérôme d'Ambrosio
Paul di Resta
Pastor Maldonado
Sergio Pérez

And, again, all of the above individuals have brought sponsorship to their teams (Perez brought Telmex, Maldonado PDVSA etc.) to smooth their entry into the sport (apart from Di Resta, as Mercedes are instead subsidising his seat at Force India by cutting the price of their KERS and engine package, or at least they are strongly rumoured to be doing so). And, of course, that ignores Narain Karthikeyan (who had been bringing in Tata), though now Ricciardo has pushed him almost out of his seat (save for the Indian GP) - of course, the fact that Ricciardo happens to be a Red Bull driver has helped enormously.

Thing is, almost all of those drivers you mentioned were moderately successful or at least promising in the Junior Formulae. This year, we have a F3 champ, a GP2 champ, a GP2 runner up, and a promising d'Ambrosio. In 2010, a GP2 champ, 2 runner ups, and 2 drivers who did quite well in GP2. The only year without a GP2 champ joining was 2009, but all those drivers were decent at least in GP2/WSR

So, no, it's pretty much the same as ti was 10 or 20 years ago. Skill and money get you in, but you would have it be really good to get in on skill alone and for free. Thing now is that there are so many places that drivers are being bred from. 10 years ago it was just F3000. Now, we have GP2, F2, WSR, and all big teams with young driver programs.

Peter wrote:This year, we have a F3 champ, a GP2 champ, a GP2 runner up, and a promising d'Ambrosio.

May I remind you who that GP2 champion is?

Lets not forget it costs 2 million and change for a national championship F3 ride in Europe now, over a million for a good ride in GP3. you don't get that kind of money by knocking on doors anymore. You only get that kind of money if daddy does business with a big oil/telecom/engineering/IT etc company. As for driver schemes, you have to survive a year or two in single seaters if you can before you might get picked up. Interesting to note there is a Canadian multi multi millionaires son on the Ferrari scheme, I'd never heard of him , !0 15 years ago if you had real big money you could buy your way in to a Sauber, now you can buy your way in to a Williams or a Renault....

And this years Williams, is just like the Sauber of 96.

Myrvold wrote:And this years Williams, is just like the Sauber of 96.

Why is that?

Let me put it these terms, if Senna was a young driver in karts now, (barring the fact that he juuuust might be picked up by a driver scheme) could he have afforded to have gone to GBR and race F3? What about Nikki Lauda? Tom Pryce (a farmers son)? etc etc etc. Using a terrible metaphor here but the cream wont ever rise if it's stuck in the cow, but crap floats

Jeroen Krautmeir wrote:

Myrvold wrote:And this years Williams, is just like the Sauber of 96.

Why is that?

Middle of the field, sometimes a bit higher, sometimes a bit lower. Not too much money, but a potential, and a private-team.

Myrvold wrote:

Jeroen Krautmeir wrote:

Myrvold wrote:And this years Williams, is just like the Sauber of 96.

Why is that?

Middle of the field, sometimes a bit higher, sometimes a bit lower. Not too much money, but a potential, and a private-team.

You forgot also the third most successful team in F1 history Sauber? well......

Never said Sauber was like Williams. But Williams was like Sauber.

dnhrudi wrote:the cream wont ever rise if it's stuck in the cow, but crap floats

redbulljack14 wrote:

dnhrudi wrote:the cream wont ever rise if it's stuck in the cow, but crap floats

and bulls dont produce cream.....

Well, sort of...

Myrvold wrote:And this years Williams, is just like the Sauber of 96.

A race winning driver who was fed up of the #2 status at a previously run Ross Brawn team.

ADx_Wales wrote:

Myrvold wrote:And this years Williams, is just like the Sauber of 96.

A race winning driver who was fed up of the #2 status at a previously run Ross Brawn team.

So that means Maldonado will to play second fiddle at Mclaren/Ferrari/Red Bull next year, then moving to a upper midfield team (Merc/Renault/Sauber?) and make a decent bid at the championship in 2015?
Or maybe I'm just looking at this too deep.

Maldonado = Frenzen....


....no wait thats not right.

DonTirri wrote:

ADx_Wales wrote:

Myrvold wrote:And this years Williams, is just like the Sauber of 96.

A race winning driver who was fed up of the #2 status at a previously run Ross Brawn team.

So that means Maldonado will to play second fiddle at Mclaren/Ferrari/Red Bull next year, then moving to a upper midfield team (Merc/Renault/Sauber?) and make a decent bid at the championship in 2015?
Or maybe I'm just looking at this too deep.

I think what it means is by maybe 2020 everyone, if we are lucky, will be a Pastor Maldonado, but are more likely to be a Kevin Mirocha, Rodolfo Gonzalez, or Jolyon Palmer! Of course the racing will be the same, cos they will all be on the same level, but what kinda sport (except polo maybe) has only penthouse rats? It' s gonna be like world powerboats with 21 year olds

What is the difference in having poor average drivers and rich average drivers? Senna and Lauda were champions in F1 and Pryce was a race winner and a promising driver. They got there because someone placed their faith on them. Today, the onus is to find the next big thing, so if you have money, some love and understanding of motorsport (or maybe a connection with it) and you happened to watch a poor racing driver shred everyone to pieces at the local race track why won't you bet on him? He is clearly fast and if the boy is a winner you will recover your money later and even win much more. If he doesn't and the boy is being hindered by slow machinery, someone able will spot this too and would try and place him in faster cars. Hopefully he will prove himself able and raise through the ranks and the investment will eventually pay off. Look at Heikki Kovalainen. His parents weren't rich...

If a driver is sufficiently good he can make it. Of course buying a ball is not the same as buying a kart, but hey, it was always like this and it will always be (Except in Finland, maybe). Football is the people's sport and for a reason. No father from a lower social class will entertain his kid with a Kart when a much less expensive ball is probably good enough except if he happens to be motorsport addict (If one day I have a kid he will have to prove himself/herself in kart!). Yes, his kid might have been the next Senna and we lost it because his father bought him a ball instead of a Kart and he is now a hopeless midfielder playing for a local club in a lower league. But if was to be the next Senna and drove a Kart in a few races, believe me, he would have been... Hell, I can have a huge hidden talent in Golf except that I never played it so I have not yet discovered it. It just wasn't meant to be. And if a poor kid goes into football oblivion instead of motorsport greatness is just because a) motorsport is expensive and consequently elitist so unless one day I can get a kart for less than 20 Euros this is not going to change or b) he was never led to that path for some reason and in this case it just wasn't meant to...

DanielPT wrote:What is the difference in having poor average drivers and rich average drivers? Senna and Lauda were champions in F1 and Pryce was a race winner and a promising driver. They got there because someone placed their faith on them. Today, the onus is to find the next big thing, so if you have money, some love and understanding of motorsport (or maybe a connection with it) and you happened to watch a poor racing driver shred everyone to pieces at the local race track why won't you bet on him? He is clearly fast and if the boy is a winner you will recover your money later and even win much more. If he doesn't and the boy is being hindered by slow machinery, someone able will spot this too and would try and place him in faster cars. Hopefully he will prove himself able and raise through the ranks and the investment will eventually pay off. Look at Heikki Kovalainen. His parents weren't rich...

If a driver is sufficiently good he can make it. Of course buying a ball is not the same as buying a kart, but hey, it was always like this and it will always be (Except in Finland, maybe). Football is the people's sport and for a reason. No father from a lower social class will entertain his kid with a Kart when a much less expensive ball is probably good enough except if he happens to be motorsport addict (If one day I have a kid he will have to prove himself/herself in kart!). Yes, his kid might have been the next Senna and we lost it because his father bought him a ball instead of a Kart and he is now a hopeless midfielder playing for a local club in a lower league. But if was to be the next Senna and drove a Kart in a few races, believe me, he would have been... Hell, I can have a huge hidden talent in Golf except that I never played it so I have not yet discovered it. It just wasn't meant to be. And if a poor kid goes into football oblivion instead of motorsport greatness is just because a) motorsport is expensive and consequently elitist so unless one day I can get a kart for less than 20 Euros this is not going to change or b) he was never led to that path for some reason and in this case it just wasn't meant to...

The difference is you now have a lot of promising karters and first year racers 'retire' from motorsports aged 17 because they can't afford it, If you don't drive you don't show your talent and get picked up by anyone willing to invest. I fully acknowledge that the chances of someone from a working class background is always gonna be a rarity. For the last fifty years motorsports has been pretty much a middle class preserve. But how many champion drivers have come from very rich families? I can only think of a couple. In the last 2-3 years there has been a sea change in the affordability of motorsports, which means the breadth of potential entering motorsport is narrowing, therefore quality will, check that, already is, suffering

DanielPT wrote:If a driver is sufficiently good he can make it. Of course buying a ball is not the same as buying a kart, but hey, it was always like this and it will always be (Except in Finland, maybe). Football is the people's sport and for a reason. No father from a lower social class will entertain his kid with a Kart when a much less expensive ball is probably good enough except if he happens to be motorsport addict (If one day I have a kid he will have to prove himself/herself in kart!). Yes, his kid might have been the next Senna and we lost it because his father bought him a ball instead of a Kart and he is now a hopeless midfielder playing for a local club in a lower league. But if was to be the next Senna and drove a Kart in a few races, believe me, he would have been... Hell, I can have a huge hidden talent in Golf except that I never played it so I have not yet discovered it. It just wasn't meant to be. And if a poor kid goes into football oblivion instead of motorsport greatness is just because a) motorsport is expensive and consequently elitist so unless one day I can get a kart for less than 20 Euros this is not going to change or b) he was never led to that path for some reason and in this case it just wasn't meant to...

or c) He might not like motorsport at all. It happens. You can't force people to do anything. If he likes being a midfielder in Football then so be it.

As for calling people "the next Senna," I usually dismiss this as I prefer driver to write their own history.

I'm pondering about Ferrari in 2005. I think that if it weren't for the new tyre rules and the rubbish Bridgestone tyres in 2005 because of said tyre rules, Ferrari probably would have won the championship yet again in 2005.

Peter wrote:I'm pondering about Ferrari in 2005. I think that if it weren't for the new tyre rules and the rubbish Bridgestone tyres in 2005 because of said tyre rules, Ferrari probably would have won the championship yet again in 2005.

And if they had just abandoned the USGP, Ferrari would have finished 6 points behind Toyota. Tyres must have made a difference because it was an evolution of the F2004, but they just weren't fast enough.

redbulljack14 wrote:

Peter wrote:I'm pondering about Ferrari in 2005. I think that if it weren't for the new tyre rules and the rubbish Bridgestone tyres in 2005 because of said tyre rules, Ferrari probably would have won the championship yet again in 2005.

And if they had just abandoned the USGP, Ferrari would have finished 6 points behind Toyota. Tyres must have made a difference because it was an evolution of the F2004, but they just weren't fast enough.

The Bridgestones in 2005 were hopeless compared to the Michelins. The Michelin tyres were a step ahead at every race. The stones put Ferrari behind McLaren, Renault and Toyota on speed, and the other stone users, Jordan and Minardi were together at the back of the grid. The F2005 being an evolution of the F2004 must mean that it was a good car, as the F2004 literally wiped the floor with everyone in 2004. I think that if it weren't for the silly tyre rules in 2005, Ferrari would've been in the fight for the title at least.

A Swiss friend of mine, who has just moved back to Switzerland and not too far from Geneva, has just had someone by the name of Romain Grosjean comment on one of his posts.

No, he can't be that one... can he? I wonder how many Romain Grosjeans there are in Switzerland?

Why do WRC races loo kso empty now in terms of fans gathering to watch? I'm remembering the Group B where thousands lined the streets and foolishly stood in the streets to wait for cars to arrive. Crowd control was nonexistent, and it was partly the reason the cars were banned. Where did all the crowds go?

Is it that WRC has shrunk that much in popularity since?

Peter wrote:Why do WRC races loo kso empty now in terms of fans gathering to watch? I'm remembering the Group B where thousands lined the streets and foolishly stood in the streets to wait for cars to arrive. Crowd control was nonexistent, and it was partly the reason the cars were banned. Where did all the crowds go?

Is it that WRC has shrunk that much in popularity since?

Maybe, because of the Citroen domination... Also one thing that may reduce the amount of fans is the viewing areas are middle of nowwhere... I mean, come on, in the Neste Oil Rally, I don´t remember which year, on stage that had a long straight, which had no jumps in it, and the viewing areas were at least 10-15 meters in the woods.

WRC is going dow the crapper, I was just talking about that with a friend yesterday. That Mini has joined and VW is on the way are good news, but the whole thing is just losing charm. The only charismatic drivers you have are Petter Solberg and Loeb, and everybody is already tired of the domination of the latter. And the rallies themselves are becoming much less challenging. And to top it off it's not that the sport is promoting itself much...

I really wish Mitsubishi will return, WRC success with the Evolution is what got them to where they are now, now they have neither of them, and are on their way down the drain. Subaru is surviving, because they aren't stupid enough to discontinue the Impreza, in fact they are the real winners from the fall of the Evolution, but they really need to come back as well. We have 3 manufacturers now, soon to be 4, not enough. Peugeot, Mitsubishi, Subaru, come back please!

Speaking of those three, what are the odds of any one of them making a comeback? Or any other manufacturer coming back?

Talking of the WRC Mini, and who's driving it, I'll be throwing my support behind Kris Meeke to make it as one of the greats. Then I can always say I saw the magnificence coming as far back as 1988, when he was representing Northern Ireland in Super Champs! Strangely, that scramble-bike / quadbike stage of his motorsport career never gets a mention in any of his official biographies...

I wonder what would have happened if Brundle got the nod in 93 over Damon Hill

stupot94 wrote:I wonder what would have happened if Brundle got the nod in 93 over Damon Hill

Brits would have one World Champion less.