Ponderbox

Warren Hughes · Post by **Warren Hughes** » 16 Jan 2018, 15:45

Apparently it's over two years since I last logged into the forums, and it delights me to see that everyone is basically the same. Although my signature's a little out of date.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 16 Jan 2018, 15:58

Warren Hughes wrote:Apparently it's over two years since I last logged into the forums, and it delights me to see that everyone is basically the same. Although my signature's a little out of date.

Welcome back!

Warren Hughes · Post by **Warren Hughes** » 16 Jan 2018, 16:06

dr-baker wrote:
Warren Hughes wrote:Apparently it's over two years since I last logged into the forums, and it delights me to see that everyone is basically the same. Although my signature's a little out of date.

Welcome back!

Not a permanent return, I don't suppose, but it's nice to check in - especially seeing so many things that haven't changed! Oh, and I saw tommykl on University Challenge a couple of months back and had to explain to my wife how I 'know' him...

Post by **tommykl** » 16 Jan 2018, 18:54

Warren Hughes wrote:
dr-baker wrote:
Warren Hughes wrote:Apparently it's over two years since I last logged into the forums, and it delights me to see that everyone is basically the same. Although my signature's a little out of date.

Welcome back!

Not a permanent return, I don't suppose, but it's nice to check in - especially seeing so many things that haven't changed! Oh, and I saw tommykl on University Challenge a couple of months back and had to explain to my wife how I 'know' him...

Regardless, it's good to see you back for a while!

I'm back on University Challenge next Monday, too, but that's beside the point...

Post by **mario** » 26 Jan 2018, 18:58

So, it seems that Liberty Media have been throwing around a few ideas for potential changes to the TV coverage schedule.

The ideas that seem to have been proposed are as follows:
- shifting the start of the races in Europe back by an hour in order to secure larger audiences, particularly in the US (though probably at the expense of Asia and Australia);
- pushing the race start back to 10 minutes past the hour, mainly to accommodate broadcasters in the US who want to show more adverts prior to the start;
- making Bahrain a full night race, rather than having it start in twilight;
- changing the microphone positions on the cars to alter the onboard engine tone;
- changing the static and moving camera angles to make the cars look faster;
- layering a music soundtrack over parts of the race footage;
- replaying regular highlights reels during the race;
- forming a partnership with a company like Netflix for behind the scenes footage.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/42816877 and https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/form ... ts-999391/

Now, I can see why some of those changes, such as the proposals to shift the timeslots, make sense if Liberty Media are chasing the US market. However, some of the proposals do sound rather gimmicky, such as the proposals to use music over the broadcast feed.

WeirdKerr · Post by **WeirdKerr** » 26 Jan 2018, 22:21

The Chicane wrote:We might be losing the Sauber name soon... shame as we've already lost names like Brabham, Lotus, Tyrrell, Ligier, Arrows, Jordan and Minardi

fixed

Jan Magnussen · Post by **Rob Dylan** » 27 Jan 2018, 11:18

mario wrote:- layering a music soundtrack over parts of the race footage;

No no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no!

I die when they do that on Formula E. It's awful.

UncreativeUsername37 · Post by **UncreativeUsername37** » 27 Jan 2018, 18:54

Typical Liberty, wanting F1 to be an entertainment brand rather than a sport. At least none of those changes have to do with the rules.

Klon · Post by **Klon** » 27 Jan 2018, 22:26

mario wrote:- layering a music soundtrack over parts of the race footage

Only way that could even remotely be acceptable if they played Jack Wall's "Suicide Mission" when someone is hunting down the leader with a few laps to go, but even then it would be hella cringy during the live broadcast.

Edit: Tested said claim with and without successful overtakes.

pasta_maldonado · Post by **pasta_maldonado** » 27 Jan 2018, 23:43

Klon wrote:
mario wrote:- layering a music soundtrack over parts of the race footage

Only way that could even remotely be acceptable if they played Jack Wall's "Suicide Mission" when someone is hunting down the leader with a few laps to go, but even then it would be hella cringy during the live broadcast.

Edit: Tested said claim with and without successful overtakes.

I can't help but think it's about to go to a commercial break...

Post by **mario** » 28 Jan 2018, 15:33

pasta_maldonado wrote:
Klon wrote:
mario wrote:- layering a music soundtrack over parts of the race footage

Only way that could even remotely be acceptable if they played Jack Wall's "Suicide Mission" when someone is hunting down the leader with a few laps to go, but even then it would be hella cringy during the live broadcast.

Edit: Tested said claim with and without successful overtakes.

I can't help but think it's about to go to a commercial break...

Perhaps somewhat appropriate then if they want to introduce changes to increase the amount of advertising that takes place...

It is one of those things that does feel a little like it is being proposed because they have seen another series do it and are crudely aping it in a misguided attempt to follow something they think is succeeding. Like many others here, I have to agree that it sounds like a measure that would, at best, be laughed at by most fans, and more probably treated as utterly cringeworthy by most.

Now, in that list, I can at least understand the commercial rationale behind the first three proposed changes - if they are keen on pushing F1 in the US, pushing the starts of the European rounds does make it a little more appealing across most of the US whilst probably having a fairly small impact on the European audiences.

It is probably going to hurt the audiences in places like Australia and Asia though - I can understand why Australia is kind of ignored, since that is not a particularly large market, but it does seem to run counter to the attempts FOM had made in the past to expand F1's presence in the Asian market. I do wonder if the sport would be better off overall in that scenario, or may just end up in a fairly neutral position because, although they gain in one market, the loss in others ends up cancelling those effects out.

The concerns about the audio feed and the camera angles does seem to be driven by that persistent hard core of fans who constantly scream about the engines. Frankly, it seems that nothing the sport can do will ever live up to their fantasies though - it also has to be said that some of the changes they've tried, such as the new microphones they trialled last year, probably ended up receiving more negative responses than positive ones.

With the camera angles, there is perhaps a valid point there - I have a recollection that one former cameraman for FOM did indicate that FOM had, over time, shifted towards using slower panning shots that covered a wider amount of the background because it was more favourable to track side advertisers. That was, in turn, a more favourable change for FOM because FOM received a cut of the track side advertising, and they were prepared to pay more if their logos were in shot for longer.

About the only proposal on that list which it seems most fans think is a great idea is the final one on the list, which is opening up more of what happens behind the scenes - that is something that could be quite successful, and does seem to be something that a few teams are perhaps opening up to (I have a recollection that Amazon has a similar deal with McLaren for such footage).

UgncreativeUsergname wrote:Typical Liberty, wanting F1 to be an entertainment brand rather than a sport. At least none of those changes have to do with the rules.

I suspect that is something that they are still getting to grips with - they can tinker with the commercial side more easily, but negotiating with the teams is something that will take longer and is more unpredictable.

Mind you, whilst the fan base has been fairly patient with Liberty Media so far, it has to be said that they seem to have made a fair number of missteps recently. The rebranding exercise that they announced in Abu Dhabi is perhaps an example of that - it was rushed out by them, only to produce something that most felt was rather bland and full of publicocrap, especially with the articles that came out afterwards.

To make matters worse, in their eagerness to rush out their new merchandising and promotional material, seemingly against all of the advice that they were getting from the older individuals at FOM, it seems that they may have made a miscalculation. It turns out that the 3M Company has already registered a very similar typeface in the US back in early 2017 (according to a user on F1 Fanatic, it is US Patent Office reg. NR 87342875) on clothing in the US:

It seems that Liberty Media are now having to negotiate with the 3M Company over the use of that typeface and that logo, because the 3M Company, unsurprisingly, is not happy about having their logos being copied by Liberty Media. In their eagerness to make that change - which smacks of making a change simply to show that they are in charge and to symbolically "clear the deck" from Bernie - they seem to have rushed into an ill judged decision that might end up backfiring on the sport.

Maybe it is just me, but I am beginning to feel that this is very reminiscent of what happened when Todt took over from Mosely - people were so happy to begin with to have a change from what came before that we took it for granted that whatever would come next would be better, even though the change ended up having mixed results. I can't help but wonder if we're seeing the same again - that people are so happy that Bernie is gone that they're perhaps placing unrealistic expectations on Liberty Media and are inevitably going to be disappointed sooner or later.

WeirdKerr · Post by **WeirdKerr** » 29 Jan 2018, 23:09

who was it that said you cannot please all of the the people all of the time....

Post by **Miguel98** » 30 Jan 2018, 11:23

Alonso is doing all WEC rounds but Fuji this year. This'll be great

UncreativeUsername37 · Post by **UncreativeUsername37** » 30 Jan 2018, 17:55

After the perfect reason to stop caring about WEC comes along, Alonso legitimises it again! Not that I've watched WEC in a while, but he's a great thing for any series to have.

Post by **mario** » 30 Jan 2018, 19:20

UgncreativeUsergname wrote:After the perfect reason to stop caring about WEC comes along, Alonso legitimises it again! Not that I've watched WEC in a while, but he's a great thing for any series to have.

It's a bigger commitment than I think most would have expected - then again, I imagine that the WEC would have been pushing extremely hard behind the scenes to get Alonso on board given that, with Porsche and Audi leaving the series in quick succession, the ACO needed something that would help draw the crowds in to the races.

Asides from that, the Daily Sportscar website did suggest that McLaren were fairly active in the recent talks between the ACO and manufacturers about the post 2020 LMP1 regulations. They suggested that McLaren were particularly interested in the ACO's suggestions about creating stronger styling links between the LMP1 class and road cars, so it sounds as if McLaren are toying with the idea of expanding into the WEC: perhaps having Alonso race in that series might be a way for Zak Brown to gauge the potential interest and value of that idea?

UncreativeUsername37 · Post by **UncreativeUsername37** » 04 Feb 2018, 08:03

Is F1 "normal racing"?
I was thinking about what "normal poker" meant. How it's probably Texas hold'em to people who are into poker, and five-card draw to the masses. Then I started wondering about sports, and it's come into my head before, but I've never really thought about it.

F1 is the top league of motorsport, or four-wheeled circuit racing at least, so maybe it's right to think of it as the Platonic ideal that everything else is deviating from. (More on that later.) But there are many more F3 and Formula Ford weekends for every F1 weekend that happens, and that's not even getting into sportscars. My point being, in terms of the participants, F1 is definitely not the common experience. I don't know if there even is one, karting perhaps, but whatever the case, F1 certainly isn't it.

Going back to the "what most people think of" criterion, it probably is what most people think of. When general audiences think racing, they think Formula One. (Except in the US, where it's stock car oval racing. Most people who say they "don't like NASCAR" seem to just not like motorsport. But that's another subject.) But should we, as the hardcore people, care what they have to say anyway? What's "normal racing" can be different to different people. As I said, it can be different to different cultures.

Maybe F1 isn't normal because it isn't very much like other leagues, even if things like "Formula Three" count for one league. It isn't as weird as the separate planet of NASCAR, but it has tons of little rules even by motorsport standards. DRS alone is a big loss of purity points, regardless of whether you like it or how many series adopt it. But that might be different from weirdness anyway; if only a few winged series don't have DRS, then not having it is weird, regardless of how pure it is or whether or not I like it. Is F1 really that plain in the first place? Is it a good example of vanilla circuit racing? Maybe it is and I'm just overreacting to DRS and technology. But whether pure=good is another subject.

If you're looking for a conclusion, there isn't one, because this is 1) a ramble where 2) the entire point is I don't know. Should there be an idea of "normal racing" anyway? Should it mean something as plain as possible? Is F1 normal because it's F1? Would its only use be to be smug about not liking things with the slightest gimmick, despite pure=good being another subject? Why can't I just let myself enjoy things?

Nessafox · Post by **Nessafox** » 04 Feb 2018, 11:29

For adults, i think GT racing sorta fits the common thing, as people generally associate race cars with exotic sport cars.

Ask the same for kids and they'll race whatever toys they see fit against each other. I think the general kids concensus would be that F1 is a unique weird thing and races would exist of normal-looking cars.

Sprint or endurance depends, but i think most people would associate sprint with racing more than endurance.

CarloSpace · Post by **CarloSpace** » 04 Feb 2018, 11:51

Are we talking strictly about circuit racing? Because for me the most "normal" kind of racing is of course rallying and I'm sure many other Finns and Scandinavians would agree. So there must be a cultural thing as well, like stock cars in US are most likely considered "normal racing".

But I agree that if you ask an average (outside US at least) to specify what is a "race car", I think most would answer any of the sports car/GT brands so probably GT racing could be argued to be "normal".

Post by **Bobby Doorknobs** » 04 Feb 2018, 16:34

I'll have my own ramble in the hopes of addressing some of the points in the first ramble so that some smart person can assemble a coherent argument from all the rambling.

I guess to the 13-year-old me that didn't have any kind of real interest in F1 until about 2008 and didn't start watching it until mid-2009 "normal racing" was anything involving a circuit with turns that went right as well as left and included cars that were pretty much the same as what you could buy in a dealership, so touring cars, silhouettes and GTs in ascending order of speed (I didn't know the term for silhouette racers at the time, but I definitely put JGTC cars in a different category between touring cars and GTs). It's a perception that was almost certainly influenced by Gran Turismo, where there are very few prototype racers (and I don't think I knew whether or not cars like the 787B were road legal anyway).

F1 was not "normal racing". It was for cars designed to be the fastest in the world without regard for practical everyday use. An F1 car looked like something from the 1998-2008 period, which made watching in 2009 particularly jarring. Thanks to a history book that I still cherish for its photographic content I did know what an F1 car looked like in days of yore, but man, seeing Tony Brooks' Ferrari on the AVUS banking for the first time...

NASCAR was dumb, of course, for its simplistic tracks and I had no idea such a thing as Indy cars existed. It's kind of weird thinking back now that I didn't even know there was a split in American open wheel racing until long after I'd seen my first IndyCar race (I want to say Texas 2010? I remember Tomas Scheckter being in the field).

I saw rallying as being distinct from "racing", but still its own cool thing. Although until I was about eight years old I thought rallying was just off-road circuit racing (again, Gran Turismo influence). Then I played V-Rally 3...

And then bike racing consisted entirely of MotoGP. Didn't know stuff like the IOM TT, NW 200 etc. existed until that 2009-2010 period of discovery that included everything from the Dakar Rally to this website called F1 Rejects...

AdrianBelmonte_ · Post by **AdrianBelmonte_** » 04 Feb 2018, 21:32

All kinds of racing are beautiful

sswishbone · Post by **sswishbone** » 05 Feb 2018, 08:15

UgncreativeUsergname wrote:After the perfect reason to stop caring about WEC comes along, Alonso legitimises it again! Not that I've watched WEC in a while, but he's a great thing for any series to have.

Interestingly Fuji have also requested permission to move the Fuji race so that he can race it! But apparently that will also clash with Road Atlanta so I think alot of drivers would be unhappy to move the WEC race to accomodate a sportscars newcomer and ruin the opportunity for drivers to dovetail the season with an effort there

https://www.autosport.com/wec/news/1341 ... onso-clash

Wallio · Post by **Wallio** » 06 Feb 2018, 15:37

sswishbone wrote:
UgncreativeUsergname wrote:After the perfect reason to stop caring about WEC comes along, Alonso legitimises it again! Not that I've watched WEC in a while, but he's a great thing for any series to have.

Interestingly Fuji have also requested permission to move the Fuji race so that he can race it! But apparently that will also clash with Road Atlanta so I think alot of drivers would be unhappy to move the WEC race to accomodate a sportscars newcomer and ruin the opportunity for drivers to dovetail the season with an effort there

https://www.autosport.com/wec/news/1341 ... onso-clash

Considering how much the ACO loves to shite on the Petit Le Mans, they'll move it.

Dexter249 · Post by **Dexter249** » 26 Feb 2018, 18:27

Alright, So considering Toyota's Luck and the ACO saying this "Fine for beating Toyota" BS, Will an LMP2 or GTE team Overall the 24 Hours this year? I've been pondering this, as in 2016 JCDCR Came close to Overalling in an Outdated LMP2 car.

Aislabie · Post by **Aislabie** » 01 Mar 2018, 01:06

Dexter249 wrote:Alright, So considering Toyota's Luck and the ACO saying this "Fine for beating Toyota" BS, Will an LMP2 or GTE team Overall the 24 Hours this year? I've been pondering this, as in 2016 JCDCR Came close to Overalling in an Outdated LMP2 car.

Well, I'm thinking that Toyota's luck and Alonso's luck will act as a sort of double-negative and cancel each other out. There are also some very well-run P1 privateers, the likes of Rebellion, SMP and Dragon at least one of whom should hopefully last the distance.

That said, if one of the P2 teams is to sneak an overall win this season, my money would be on the number 36 Alpine. Really solid driver line-up and a proven chassis.

FullMetalJack · Post by **FullMetalJack** » 10 Mar 2018, 23:33

Has there ever been a season where none of the teams started the season as rejects?

I did initially think 2004, but Toyota were still a 'point' short. Same with Stewart in 1998.

Post by **mario** » 11 Mar 2018, 07:53

Aislabie wrote:
Dexter249 wrote:Alright, So considering Toyota's Luck and the ACO saying this "Fine for beating Toyota" BS, Will an LMP2 or GTE team Overall the 24 Hours this year? I've been pondering this, as in 2016 JCDCR Came close to Overalling in an Outdated LMP2 car.

Well, I'm thinking that Toyota's luck and Alonso's luck will act as a sort of double-negative and cancel each other out. There are also some very well-run P1 privateers, the likes of Rebellion, SMP and Dragon at least one of whom should hopefully last the distance.

That said, if one of the P2 teams is to sneak an overall win this season, my money would be on the number 36 Alpine. Really solid driver line-up and a proven chassis.

The BR1 was reportedly setting some very quick times when it was testing in Aragon a while ago, with lap times down in the mid 1m17s bracket (for reference, it appears that Toyota were setting 1m18s lap times when on a long run around that circuit a little before that test). Their car was one of the first to launch and has therefore had the longest test cycle, so I wouldn't rule them out from springing a surprise as well.
http://www.dailysportscar.com/2018/02/2 ... ebook.html

FullMetalJack wrote:Has there ever been a season where none of the teams started the season as rejects?

I did initially think 2004, but Toyota were still a 'point' short. Same with Stewart in 1998.

Maybe 2001?

FullMetalJack · Post by **FullMetalJack** » 11 Mar 2018, 12:51

mario wrote:
FullMetalJack wrote:Has there ever been a season where none of the teams started the season as rejects?

I did initially think 2004, but Toyota were still a 'point' short. Same with Stewart in 1998.

Maybe 2001?

I did think that, but Jaguar hadn't scored enough points.

If Haas are as promising as testing suggests, 2019 could be the first.

Aislabie · Post by **Aislabie** » 25 Apr 2018, 15:22

I was just thinking about what might have happened if Super Aguri had survived until 2009.

This is because I think I read somewhere that it was they who had managed to make the breakthrough with double diffusers, only to hand it over to Honda when their team went bust.

It's easy to chuckle and imagine an Anthony Davidson WDC battle, but really - is there any chance they could have built a car competitive enough, and manned it with drivers strong enough, to mount a credible title threat?

It could also have opened the door to teams like Toyota and Williams to get a headstart on the rest of the field - imagine a Trulli-Glock 1-2 to start the season. And would the other teams have been so quick on the uptake without Brawn's headline-grabbing fairy story? I'm just thinking aloud here - what do y'all think?

Post by **mario** » 27 Apr 2018, 17:18

Aislabie wrote:I was just thinking about what might have happened if Super Aguri had survived until 2009.

This is because I think I read somewhere that it was they who had managed to make the breakthrough with double diffusers, only to hand it over to Honda when their team went bust.

It's easy to chuckle and imagine an Anthony Davidson WDC battle, but really - is there any chance they could have built a car competitive enough, and manned it with drivers strong enough, to mount a credible title threat?

It could also have opened the door to teams like Toyota and Williams to get a headstart on the rest of the field - imagine a Trulli-Glock 1-2 to start the season. And would the other teams have been so quick on the uptake without Brawn's headline-grabbing fairy story? I'm just thinking aloud here - what do y'all think?

The big question is whether they would have had the resources to fully develop that idea, as it is unlikely they could have matched the amount of development work that their rivals did once they heard of the idea. It is also possible that Toyota might not have heard of the concept either, as there was a suggestion that one of the ex-Super Aguri guys headed to Toyota instead and took the idea with him.

If Super Aguri could have kept the idea under wraps, I suspect that the idea might have temporarily boosted them into the midfield pack, but a lack of funding would have prevented them from fully exploiting the idea. It may be that Toyota might then have become the front running team for the opening few races - however, I suspect that the more likely situation is that Vettel and Red Bull, given the RB5 was the strongest car without a double diffuser, would instead have taken taken both titles fairly easily that season.

Waris · Post by **Waris** » 28 Apr 2018, 09:01

FullMetalJack wrote:Has there ever been a season where none of the teams started the season as rejects?

I did initially think 2004, but Toyota were still a 'point' short. Same with Stewart in 1998.

Er, pretty sure Stewart had a bloody podium in 1997...

Post by **Bobby Doorknobs** » 28 Apr 2018, 11:09

Waris wrote:
FullMetalJack wrote:Has there ever been a season where none of the teams started the season as rejects?

I did initially think 2004, but Toyota were still a 'point' short. Same with Stewart in 1998.

Er, pretty sure Stewart had a bloody podium in 1997...

They still would have been a point short. Seven points under the old system is the minimum for teams.

ibsey · Post by **ibsey** » 28 Apr 2018, 20:57

Simtek wrote:
Waris wrote:
FullMetalJack wrote:Has there ever been a season where none of the teams started the season as rejects?

I did initially think 2004, but Toyota were still a 'point' short. Same with Stewart in 1998.

Er, pretty sure Stewart had a bloody podium in 1997...

They still would have been a point short. Seven points under the old system is the minimum for teams.

Wow I find it hard to believe Stewart only 97 points were those from Monaco (I can't be bothered to research it, but I'll take your word for it). Mind you Barrichello would have scored decent points at Argentina & Austria if they hadn't resulted in DNF's.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 29 Apr 2018, 08:59

Just looked at 1997 results in Wikipedia. Wow. Stewart did only get one points result all year! But there again, Arrows didn't do much better, with a second place of their own, plus a fifth and sixth to go with it.

Waris · Post by **Waris** » 29 Apr 2018, 17:12

ibsey wrote:
Simtek wrote:
Waris wrote:Er, pretty sure Stewart had a bloody podium in 1997...

They still would have been a point short. Seven points under the old system is the minimum for teams.

Wow I find it hard to believe Stewart only 97 points were those from Monaco (I can't be bothered to research it, but I'll take your word for it). Mind you Barrichello would have scored decent points at Argentina & Austria if they hadn't resulted in DNF's.

My bad, I entirely forgot that the criteria for teams were different from those for drivers. (Why is that, actually? Is it because back in the day teams would get fluke podium results more often? Onyx comes to mind.)

ibsey · Post by **ibsey** » 29 Apr 2018, 18:39

Waris wrote: (Why is that, actually? Is it because back in the day teams would get fluke podium results more often? Onyx comes to mind.)

Because 1990's F1 was just cool. If anyone tells you any differently, that's just fake news

Post by **tommykl** » 29 Apr 2018, 19:58

Waris wrote:
ibsey wrote:
Simtek wrote:They still would have been a point short. Seven points under the old system is the minimum for teams.

Wow I find it hard to believe Stewart only 97 points were those from Monaco (I can't be bothered to research it, but I'll take your word for it). Mind you Barrichello would have scored decent points at Argentina & Austria if they hadn't resulted in DNF's.

My bad, I entirely forgot that the criteria for teams were different from those for drivers. (Why is that, actually? Is it because back in the day teams would get fluke podium results more often? Onyx comes to mind.)

In fact, I believe the system was put in place specifically for the inclusion of Onyx within the definition of a reject team!

AustralianStig · Post by **AustralianStig** » 15 May 2018, 08:12

Not really sure where to post this, but does anyone play the official Fantasy F1 league? https://fantasy.formula1.com/

If there's already a GP Rejects league going I'd love to join, otherwise I'll create one.

takagi_for_the_win · Post by **takagi_for_the_win** » 15 May 2018, 13:52

AustralianStig wrote:Not really sure where to post this, but does anyone play the official Fantasy F1 league? https://fantasy.formula1.com/

If there's already a GP Rejects league going I'd love to join, otherwise I'll create one.

Seem to remember we had one of these going a few years back and it was pretty fun, wouldn't mind doing one if others are interested?

AustralianStig · Post by **AustralianStig** » 16 May 2018, 07:25

It is created!

https://fantasy.formula1.com/join/?=2a1f25

novitopoli · Post by **novitopoli** » 21 May 2018, 06:59

Apparently there are rumours floating around that Hartley is going to be sacked after Monaco.

Source (in Dutch)