Grand Prix Rejects

Vettel is much like the english word fettle. And Barrichello is Barry Kello - as if he were a cross between a 21 year old Scot and a 28 year old Slovakian.

1000000000 HWNSNBM points if you can name both people I'm talking about...simply because it has zilch to do with F1 and will be a bastard to figure out for everyone

Oooh, references to Scottish football leauge players are so difficult to point out ...

Klon wrote:Oooh, references to Scottish football leauge players are so difficult to point out ...

I'm surprised anyone knows such a thing exists. And anyway, you're only 50% right.

I have no idea how Vettel cannot break all qualifying records, no matter how much I ponder about it.

Klon wrote:I have no idea how Vettel cannot break all qualifying records, no matter how much I ponder about it.

Well, for this season at least, there are a couple he might break or equal, but not as many as you might think.

He could possibly equal Senna's record for consecutive pole positions, which stands at eight, though that was over two seasons (from the 1988 Spanish GP to the 1989 US GP). If you limit it to just one season, then he would set a new record, provided he were to take pole position in every race left in the season, which would give him eight consecutive pole positions - Prost currently holds the record with seven consecutive pole positions in 1993. All it would take, though, is one small error or a mechanical problem, as happened in Spain, and it's plausible that we could see somebody else spoil the party for Vettel - though, if he did pull it off, and the RB8 is as successful as the RB7, we could see Senna's record go too.
The other record he might have a shot at would be the record for the most pole positions in a single season, which Mansell currently holds (unsurprisingly, that was in 1992, where he accumulated 14 pole positions), though I believe that Mansell would still have won the greatest proportion of pole positions in a single season (88%).

However, as things stand, given the sheer length of Schumacher's career, it might be hard for him to beat Schumacher's total number of poles (68), and his current percentage of poles to entries, at 33%, is still a long way shy of Senna (~40%), Ascari (~42%), Clark (~45%) and Fangio (~56%).

kostas22 wrote:

Klon wrote:Oooh, references to Scottish football leauge players are so difficult to point out ...

I'm surprised anyone knows such a thing exists. And anyway, you're only 50% right.

We know Scottish Football exists, we just don't care.

redbulljack14 wrote:

kostas22 wrote:

Klon wrote:Oooh, references to Scottish football leauge players are so difficult to point out ...

I'm surprised anyone knows such a thing exists. And anyway, you're only 50% right.

We know Scottish Football exists, we just don't care.

This guy does:

Why does every race on the calender (ignore European GP) have the country name in the title except Abu Dhabi. (which is in the country of the United Arab Emirates)

Shadaza wrote:Why does every race on the calender (ignore European GP) have the country name in the title except Abu Dhabi. (which is in the country of the United Arab Emirates)

Because United Arabian Emirates Grand Prix just sounds awful.

Why does Lewis Hamilton have trouble overtaking Schumacher on the Ascari chicane when Jenson Button overtook Schuey in one try?

Klon wrote:

Shadaza wrote:Why does every race on the calender (ignore European GP) have the country name in the title except Abu Dhabi. (which is in the country of the United Arab Emirates)

Because United Arabian Emirates Grand Prix just sounds awful.

Might as well change the name, as the race is awful.

Shadaza wrote:Why does every race on the calender (ignore European GP) have the country name in the title except Abu Dhabi. (which is in the country of the United Arab Emirates)

Because of the possibility that there will be a Dubai Grand Prix as well.

DanielPT wrote:

Cynon wrote:If Pirelli and the GPDA get the tire rule changed and qualifying tires come back, those qualifying tires should be uber hard NASCAR tires.

Just saying.

Are you saying that NASCAR tyres last 100 yards?

Only at Indianapolis. Everywhere else, NASCAR tires are so hard you could use them as bulletproof armor.

I wonder how Rosberg would have done in the Italian GP if you know what didnt happen.

Or what would have happened if Senna wasnt held up

Here's one, as it couldve been a slim possiblity:

We all know Ricciardo finished the race, albiet 14 laps down on Vettel, so he wasn't classified. But If there'd been more retirements and HRT found themselves 10th, would they get the point despite being non classified? I can't remember a race where it happened. Indy 05' is an exception because the Michelin drivers were non-starters.

Cynon wrote:Because of the possibility that there will be a Dubai Grand Prix as well.

Don't tempt fate! Bernie might be watching...

AdrianSutil wrote:Here's one, as it couldve been a slim possiblity:

We all know Ricciardo finished the race, albiet 14 laps down on Vettel, so he wasn't classified. But If there'd been more retirements and HRT found themselves 10th, would they get the point despite being non classified? I can't remember a race where it happened. Indy 05' is an exception because the Michelin drivers were non-starters.

I don't think so, at the 1966 Monaco Grand Prix, there were only 4 points scorers despite Jo Bonnier and Guy Ligier still lapping the track over 20 laps down.

The prospect of Barrichello's F1 career ending has send me almost halfway through the five stages of grief in accordance with the Kübler-Ross model...
Does this make me an avid fan or just a nutcase?

Klon wrote:The prospect of Barrichello's F1 career ending has send me almost halfway through the five stages of grief in accordance with the Kübler-Ross model...
Does this make me an avid fan or just a nutcase?

This means that you place Barrichello's F1 career end event as important as the death of a loved one, divorce, drug addiction, incarceration, the onset of a disease or chronic illness, an infertility diagnosis, as well many tragedies and disasters. I would say that this puts you exactly in the middle of both mentioned categories. Don't worry, most of the forum members are like that anyway! It saddens me that it is the last true link with the 1990's in terms of drivers (I consider the Schumacher career like two different drivers, the first being a much ambitious and talented driver who raced from 1991 to 2006 winning 7 WDC titles and the second, a more relaxed and error-prone journeyman, who raced since 2010 joining the average F1 drivers ranks in the process). Truthfully, Barrichello's career ended two years ago when he left Brawn, so that is not an issue for me any more.

Klon wrote:The prospect of Barrichello's F1 career ending has send me almost halfway through the five stages of grief in accordance with the Kübler-Ross model...
Does this make me an avid fan or just a nutcase?

I find myself strangely curious about what the "Bargaining" phase entailed. Would you care to drop that description on us?

DanielPT wrote:Truthfully, Barrichello's career ended two years ago when he left Brawn, so that is not an issue for me any more.

That's how I see Trulli's career, he's gone after 2011, no enthusiasm whatsoever. I would have defended Trulli last year, as I didn't think he was actually that bad.

Row Man Gross-Gene wrote:

Klon wrote:The prospect of Barrichello's F1 career ending has send me almost halfway through the five stages of grief in accordance with the Kübler-Ross model...
Does this make me an avid fan or just a nutcase?

I find myself strangely curious about what the "Bargaining" phase entailed. Would you care to drop that description on us?

To quote myself here (from the RotR thread for Monza):

Klon wrote:...his (Pastor Maldonado's) team mate instead has everything that could go wrong go wrong for him - and it's mostly not his fault - and in the end, he is only one position ahead of him come the finish line. This guy is pretty much secured for 2012, whereas Barrichello is not ... and Williams wonder why nobody takes them seriously anymore.

Obviously literally "bargaining" is not quite possible for the average fan, so I'd say hyping Barrichello's performance at any given opportunity counts...

Am I the only person thinking Force India can take 5th in the Constructors Championship?

redbulljack14 wrote:Am I the only person thinking Force India can take 5th in the Constructors Championship?

I'm not alone, it appears! If Group Bahar continue on their downward spiral, FI will easily take 5th.

East Londoner wrote:

redbulljack14 wrote:Am I the only person thinking Force India can take 5th in the Constructors Championship?

I'm not alone, it appears! If Group Bahar continue on their downward spiral, FI will easily take 5th.

22 points to close in on, 5 races to go. Very possible.

Especially if both of the drivers continue their form, Di Resta is improving and Sutil has also definitely hit form.

redbulljack14 wrote:

East Londoner wrote:

redbulljack14 wrote:Am I the only person thinking Force India can take 5th in the Constructors Championship?

I'm not alone, it appears! If Group Bahar continue on their downward spiral, FI will easily take 5th.

22 points to close in on, 5 races to go. Very possible.

Especially if both of the drivers continue their form, Di Resta is improving and Sutil has also definitely hit form.

I agree that, if Renault do continue to struggle for the rest of the season, 5th might just come within reach of Force India; both drivers at Force India are looking much more competitive, and they have finally, since the very first race in Australia, managed to get both drivers home in the points.

That said, we mustn't get too far ahead of ourselves - Renault are now responding to Force India's late surge and are bringing in more developments for the Japanese GP, and we'll have to see how Renault fare in the final few races of this season. Overall, Force India's chances are going to depend a fair bit on how Mercedes perform for the rest of the season, since Force India are currently fighting them for the same points positions (7th and 8th, which is where they need to be finishing to really have a good chance of outscoring Renault) - and also on whether Di Resta and Sutil can continue both finishing in the points (speaking of which, Di Resta is now only seven points behind Sutil - 20 points to 27 - which is pretty respectable after that rough patch earlier in the season).
After all, this is only Force India's second double points finish this season, and both drivers have occasionally ended up in on track clashes with rivals or ended up on the wrong strategy, so this run of form is by no means assured.

That battle for sixth looks now such a straightforward affair that people are beginning to wonder if Force India can overhaul Renault in 5th place. Which is not that wide of the mark. Force India had a race pace equal to Mercedes in the last race and if it keeps going like this Renault will lose the spot in the next couple of races...

DanielPT wrote:That battle for sixth looks now such a straightforward affair that people are beginning to wonder if Force India can overhaul Renault in 5th place. Which is not that wide of the mark. Force India had a race pace equal to Mercedes in the last race and if it keeps going like this Renault will lose the spot in the next couple of races...

Perhaps - Renault do seem to be stepping their development program back up again as they've realised that their position in the WCC is now seriously under threat, so it's possible that Renault might still be able to pick up a few points here and there and just hold on.
Given that their finances are not especially strong, dropping from 5th to 6th in the WCC would potentially cost the teams a sizeable amount of TV revenue income from FOM. OK, Bruno's sponsors have bolstered the team for now, but there is the overarching question of Kubica's position within the team - especially since his recovery seems to be faster than originally expected (hence why Boullier wants to see what Kubica can do behind the wheel).

So, overall Renault are unlikely to give up their place without a fight, in part because it is possible that the long term survival of the team depends on them holding off Force India. I do think that Force India might have a good chance, given their relative pace to Mercedes - and perhaps, given that Ferrari are cutting back on development this year, they might even be capable of getting ahead of one or both of Ferrari's cars in the last couple of races - but it's probably going to be harder than the relative form that Force India and Renault showed in Singapore suggested, given that Singapore looks to have been a fluke result (possibly in part because of the very bumpy nature of the track - there were some comments from Renault that suggested that their car is very sensitive to changes in pitch).

mario wrote:...but it's probably going to be harder than the relative form that Force India and Renault showed in Singapore suggested, given that Singapore looks to have been a fluke result (possibly in part because of the very bumpy nature of the track - there were some comments from Renault that suggested that their car is very sensitive to changes in pitch).

In that case expect Renault to be nowhere again at the season finale at Interlagos. If my memory serves me right the track was resurfaced a few years ago yet the bumps are still pretty bad.

Only a little tid-bit of info but I do happen to know for a fact that Renault-Genii has 7 figure debts from back in 2009 which they still haven't paid. If my memory serves me right (which it usually doesn't) it was around about 5M. But just think, if they owe that much on one contract which expired two years ago, imagine what other kind of debts they could have stacked up. The nature of said deal was marketing services. I shall not say anymore because I really shouldn't know any of this

The point is, Genii really aren't that rich compared to the top-half F1 teams. They don't have the sort of budget the team did under full Renault control. I don't see them going forward again for a long time without a massive cash injection from somewhere.

Would bringing CVTs to F1 (after having been briefly tested by Williams away from competition in 93/94) be a good and relevant move? Arn't they supposed to provide a small increase in fuel efficiency? I don't know how it is abroad, but in America these are becoming more and relevant, as virtually every automatic transmission is beginning to include 5 gears or more to compete.

What if a common CVT gearbox was developed? I feel like a CVT+Turbo would be an incredibly potent combination.

Mario, thoughts?

F1000X wrote:Would bringing CVTs to F1 (after having been briefly tested by Williams away from competition in 93/94) be a good and relevant move? Arn't they supposed to provide a small increase in fuel efficiency? I don't know how it is abroad, but in America these are becoming more and relevant, as virtually every automatic transmission is beginning to include 5 gears or more to compete.

What if a common CVT gearbox was developed? I feel like a CVT+Turbo would be an incredibly potent combination.

Mario, thoughts?

NO. JUST NO.

We don't need the sport to be more deskilled and standardized than it is right now.

F1000X wrote:Would bringing CVTs to F1 (after having been briefly tested by Williams away from competition in 93/94) be a good and relevant move? Arn't they supposed to provide a small increase in fuel efficiency? I don't know how it is abroad, but in America these are becoming more and relevant, as virtually every automatic transmission is beginning to include 5 gears or more to compete.

What if a common CVT gearbox was developed? I feel like a CVT+Turbo would be an incredibly potent combination.

Mario, thoughts?

Would a CVT potentially increase the efficiency of the cars? Possibly - since the engine would be able to operate at constant load (which would be the most efficient configuration), that would potentially reduce the fuel consumption of the engines. On the other hand, though, there is the downside that the transmission losses of the currently available CVT's on the market tend to be higher than the conventional gears used.
Overall, yes, you might see a small increase in efficiency once the higher efficiency losses are factored in - but, as you can see from Phoenix's reply, it might not necessarily be popular with the public (there are still a number of fans demanding that F1 revert to the traditional H pattern gearboxes of the early 1990's, as they see the current semi automatic gearboxes as being "too easy" for the drivers).

There could also be the issue of lap times, and the cars becoming much quicker - Williams reckoned that, with a little fine tuning to the CVT system they tested, the gains in lap time could be in the order of seconds, and that was based on contemporary technology.

Here's an interesting one. The backmarker teams, while being quite a lot off on pace on the frontrunners, are much, much easier on their tyres than them, often doing 1 and 2 stops while frontrunners do 3 or even more sometimes. This could apply to Sauber as well.

Well then, why don't these teams try to give themselves some more grip and pace by jacking up the Camber and Toe Angles? Meaning, they could run significantly more camber, which will wear the tyres more, but give them some more grip as well. They could do this, run a similar 3 stop strategy to the faster teams, and gain some time on their own?

Peter wrote:Here's an interesting one. The backmarker teams, while being quite a lot off on pace on the frontrunners, are much, much easier on their tyres than them, often doing 1 and 2 stops while frontrunners do 3 or even more sometimes. This could apply to Sauber as well.

Well then, why don't these teams try to give themselves some more grip and pace by jacking up the Camber and Toe Angles? Meaning, they could run significantly more camber, which will wear the tyres more, but give them some more grip as well. They could do this, run a similar 3 stop strategy to the faster teams, and gain some time on their own?

People in the midfield save tires to pull results and that works well for them. Better at least than those who try to mimic the front runners strategy. For that reason I cannot see it work for the back markers...

DanielPT wrote:

Peter wrote:Here's an interesting one. The backmarker teams, while being quite a lot off on pace on the frontrunners, are much, much easier on their tyres than them, often doing 1 and 2 stops while frontrunners do 3 or even more sometimes. This could apply to Sauber as well.

Well then, why don't these teams try to give themselves some more grip and pace by jacking up the Camber and Toe Angles? Meaning, they could run significantly more camber, which will wear the tyres more, but give them some more grip as well. They could do this, run a similar 3 stop strategy to the faster teams, and gain some time on their own?

People in the midfield save tires to pull results and that works well for them. Better at least than those who try to mimic the front runners strategy. For that reason I cannot see it work for the back markers...

Besides, to be honest the teams at the back of the grid are probably able to run their tyres for longer simply because, with a major downforce deficit, the loads that they are putting through the tyres should be a fair bit lower than the front runners. And as you say, in the midfield we've seen that sometimes there is a better pay off from doing fewer stops - Sauber could potentially have scored points in Monza had they not suffered mechanical problems, and that was through a one stop strategy (Perez was yet to stop for tyres when he retired, and was still fairly competitve lap time wise).

Also, increasing camber and toe angles in an attempt to mimic Red Bull is a bad idea when your car is likely to behave quite differently, given the inherent differences in design philosophy - you can't just bolt something onto your car that was taken from somebody else if you're unsure what exactly they are doing (we've only heard occasionally what sort of camber setting Red Bull have been using, for example), and why they are doing it.

Ponderbox is back, because I see this on ESPN:

Mark Webber says he would rather win a race this year than finish second in the Drivers' Championship.

The Vettel Domination Era™ has had me wondering. Will history look less favourably on Mark Webber because of the results he hasn't had this season? Will one race win change that, or will he need to win all the remaining races to shake off the spectre of a ruined reputation? I've never forgotten how sharply criticised Heinz-Harald Frentzen was for only winning once while at Williams for two years. The 1998 FW20 was a complete mutt, compared to the expectiations on the team, at least, and I suspect even Michael Schumacher would have had a tough time dragging a win out of it, but in 1997 when Jacques Villeneuve cruised to the championship (before his worrying descent rejectwards) with seven wins, H-H could only score one. That the title was not decided until the final race didn't work in H-H's favour, as JV needed all the points he could get, so - how is it going to look for Mark Webber if, from where we are in this season, with the title done and dusted and Seb 10-0 up in wins, Mark still cannot win a race and - perish the thought for him - Seb wins the last three? I would be concerned that all his heroics to drag himself into contention for the title in 2010 and still be fighting for it at the last race will all have gone up in smoke.

But it would be better for Mark's reputation if he fought for the win and came second rather than being gifted the win by Vettel. He just needs to get into a position to fight for the win in the first place...

dr-baker wrote:But it would be better for Mark's reputation if he fought for the win and came second rather than being gifted the win by Vettel. He just needs to get into a position to fight for the win in the first place...

In other words, he needs to work on his starts.

redbulljack14 wrote:

dr-baker wrote:But it would be better for Mark's reputation if he fought for the win and came second rather than being gifted the win by Vettel. He just needs to get into a position to fight for the win in the first place...

In other words, he needs to work on his starts.

I believe Korea was the first race I can recall in a long time that he didn't lose a position on the first corner.