Grand Prix Rejects

What I don't understand is why Ferrari doesn't opt for a Alonso-Bianchi lineup for 2014.

Benetton wrote:What I don't understand is why Ferrari doesn't opt for a Alonso-Bianchi lineup for 2014.

I can't see Ferrari doing that, after all only 12 months ago they were saying that Perez was too inexperienced for them for 2013!

At the time of Webber's announcement, I suggested that if Red Bull were to pick a less experienced driver for their No. 2, then perhaps Ferrari would see it as an opportunity to bring
in a 'lesser' driver of their own - I mentioned Hulkenburg at the time - and finally ditch Massa. I guess now that Red Bull have made their plans known, Ferrari can't be far off letting us know theirs.

AustralianStig wrote:

Benetton wrote:What I don't understand is why Ferrari doesn't opt for a Alonso-Bianchi lineup for 2014.

I can't see Ferrari doing that, after all only 12 months ago they were saying that Perez was too inexperienced for them for 2013!

Exactly - Ferrari have always been relatively cautious when it comes to selecting drivers.

If you consider their most recent signings over the past decade or so, they signed Alonso, Kimi, Massa, Rubens and Schumacher - two drivers already had taken championships, another had consistently come close and eventually did win a WDC with Ferrari, Rubens was a seasoned veteran and favoured because he gave excellent feedback and Massa had three years under his belt at Sauber and another honing his skills as a Ferrari test driver. Even some of their casual enquiries into the contracts of some other drivers in the past - such as Button and Webber - targeted experienced veterans rather than up and coming drivers, even if Ferrari may be working with some up and coming drivers in junior series right now.

You have to go back to Alesi before you find a Ferrari driver with less than three years of experience under his belt at the time he signed for them, so the chances of them moving Bianchi up into a race seat is rather low. I could only really see them doing that as a move of necessity rather than by choice - they'd probably prefer to buy the contract of a more experienced driver out (Hulkenberg, for example - especially since they would have more leverage over the team through their engine supply deals) rather than move Bianchi into the team.

mario wrote:

AustralianStig wrote:

Benetton wrote:What I don't understand is why Ferrari doesn't opt for a Alonso-Bianchi lineup for 2014.

I can't see Ferrari doing that, after all only 12 months ago they were saying that Perez was too inexperienced for them for 2013!

Exactly - Ferrari have always been relatively cautious when it comes to selecting drivers.

If you consider their most recent signings over the past decade or so, they signed Alonso, Kimi, Massa, Rubens and Schumacher - two drivers already had taken championships, another had consistently come close and eventually did win a WDC with Ferrari, Rubens was a seasoned veteran and favoured because he gave excellent feedback and Massa had three years under his belt at Sauber and another honing his skills as a Ferrari test driver. Even some of their casual enquiries into the contracts of some other drivers in the past - such as Button and Webber - targeted experienced veterans rather than up and coming drivers, even if Ferrari may be working with some up and coming drivers in junior series right now.

You have to go back to Alesi before you find a Ferrari driver with less than three years of experience under his belt at the time he signed for them, so the chances of them moving Bianchi up into a race seat is rather low. I could only really see them doing that as a move of necessity rather than by choice - they'd probably prefer to buy the contract of a more experienced driver out (Hulkenberg, for example - especially since they would have more leverage over the team through their engine supply deals) rather than move Bianchi into the team.

I agree- Ferrari may just move Bianchi into the Sauber seat instead (a bit like Massa in 2004). Ferrai are starting to look into the future and I would not be surprised if in the next 10 years we see Hulkenberg and Bianchi as the two ferrari drivers. Ferrari I think like to farm out potential drivers to see if they can make it (usually to Sauber) just like Red Bull.

But Ferrari must stop living in the past with Massa. Yes he was a championship contender in 2008 and he had some great wins (Brazil 2008 Brazil 2006) but ever since 2011 and the Pirelli tyres whatever pace he had has gone and the team would only be damaging themselves further if they didn't cut their loses and let him go!

rachel1990 wrote:I agree- Ferrari may just move Bianchi into the Sauber seat instead (a bit like Massa in 2004). Ferrai are starting to look into the future and I would not be surprised if in the next 10 years we see Hulkenberg and Bianchi as the two ferrari drivers. Ferrari I think like to farm out potential drivers to see if they can make it (usually to Sauber) just like Red Bull.

But Ferrari must stop living in the past with Massa. Yes he was a championship contender in 2008 and he had some great wins (Brazil 2008 Brazil 2006) but ever since 2011 and the Pirelli tyres whatever pace he had has gone and the team would only be damaging themselves further if they didn't cut their loses and let him go!

Exactly the only reason Massa is there is because Alonso doesn't want a team-mate to challenge him and he just wants a nice obedient number 2 which is what present Massa is Perfect for that role.

BTW sorry for spitting the dummy and going on Hiatus but Enoch saying that I inspired the ROTR for Belgium has given me an urge to be part of the forum again. Sorry and lets leave it at that

I had thought about the possibility of Hulk to Ferrari too - I dread to think where that would leave Sauber though (Gutierrez and Sirotkin?). Unless they ditched Gutierrez and put Massa in as they need someone experienced alongside the Russian youngster!

James1978 wrote:I had thought about the possibility of Hulk to Ferrari too - I dread to think where that would leave Sauber though (Gutierrez and Sirotkin?). Unless they ditched Gutierrez and put Massa in as they need someone experienced alongside the Russian youngster!

To be honest I had expected that Hulk would leave Sauber, because of the whole "not getting paid" thing. So he's hoping that Ferrari drop Massa, as that would allow him either to take Massa's seat at Ferrari, or the seat of the driver who replaces Massa (Raikkonen or Button, presumably).

Sauber should take on Massa and Bianchi, get the engines as cheap as possible, and get Sirotkin drive on Fridays, if he gets the money together.

Backmarker wrote:

James1978 wrote:I had thought about the possibility of Hulk to Ferrari too - I dread to think where that would leave Sauber though (Gutierrez and Sirotkin?). Unless they ditched Gutierrez and put Massa in as they need someone experienced alongside the Russian youngster!

To be honest I had expected that Hulk would leave Sauber, because of the whole "not getting paid" thing. So he's hoping that Ferrari drop Massa, as that would allow him either to take Massa's seat at Ferrari, or the seat of the driver who replaces Massa (Raikkonen or Button, presumably).

I thought Hulk terminated his contract at Sauber for next year a long time ago...

Anyhow, I think the Hulk has a good shot at staying in F1 next year. He certainly is quick enough, and he has driven that Sauber to places it shouldn't have been. So he is a fairly safe bet if someone in a top seat gets the sack.

James1978 wrote:I had thought about the possibility of Hulk to Ferrari too - I dread to think where that would leave Sauber though (Gutierrez and Sirotkin?). Unless they ditched Gutierrez and put Massa in as they need someone experienced alongside the Russian youngster!

I thought that if Sirotkin is in at Sauber, Gutierrez would be out. The Telmex sponsorship is all going to McLaren isn't it? Maybe a reserve and simulator driver position at McLaren for Gutierrez?

Faustus wrote:

James1978 wrote:I had thought about the possibility of Hulk to Ferrari too - I dread to think where that would leave Sauber though (Gutierrez and Sirotkin?). Unless they ditched Gutierrez and put Massa in as they need someone experienced alongside the Russian youngster!

I thought that if Sirotkin is in at Sauber, Gutierrez would be out. The Telmex sponsorship is all going to McLaren isn't it? Maybe a reserve and simulator driver position at McLaren for Gutierrez?

There are other companies related to Carlos Slim that are turning up at Sauber (though there is a little bit of sponsorship from Telmex). Their deal with Claro Americas continues through Gutierrez, so it is plausible that Telmex might go to McLaren but some of the smaller subsidiaries may remain associated with Sauber.

Red Bull and Toro Rosso should dump Jean-Eric Vergne at the end of this year and take António Felix da Costa and Carlos Sainz Jr. for next year. Vergne will get one more year at Toro Rosso at best and then he'll be out to make room for someone else. Might as well dump him now.

Faustus wrote:Red Bull and Toro Rosso should dump Jean-Eric Vergne at the end of this year and take António Felix da Costa and Carlos Sainz Jr. for next year. Vergne will get one more year at Toro Rosso at best and then he'll be out to make room for someone else. Might as well dump him now.

Red Bull seem to have seen something in Carlos Sainz, Jr., but personally I don't rate him especially. AFDC could have a decent F1 career, but I don't think he's the second coming either. I think the best junior team members around at the moment are Raffaele Marciello (Ferrari), Stoffel Vandoorne (McLaren) and Matt Parry (Caterham).

Backmarker wrote:

Faustus wrote:Red Bull and Toro Rosso should dump Jean-Eric Vergne at the end of this year and take António Felix da Costa and Carlos Sainz Jr. for next year. Vergne will get one more year at Toro Rosso at best and then he'll be out to make room for someone else. Might as well dump him now.

Red Bull seem to have seen something in Carlos Sainz, Jr., but personally I don't rate him especially. AFDC could have a decent F1 career, but I don't think he's the second coming either. I think the best junior team members around at the moment are Raffaele Marciello (Ferrari), Stoffel Vandoorne (McLaren) and Matt Parry (Caterham).

JEV deserves a place on the grid. This guy scored the first top 6 for the team since the Vettel era so I would keep him and get da Costa to learn from him with Sainz Jr being the 3rd driver and get him some Friday drives.

Backmarker wrote:

Faustus wrote:Red Bull and Toro Rosso should dump Jean-Eric Vergne at the end of this year and take António Felix da Costa and Carlos Sainz Jr. for next year. Vergne will get one more year at Toro Rosso at best and then he'll be out to make room for someone else. Might as well dump him now.

Red Bull seem to have seen something in Carlos Sainz, Jr., but personally I don't rate him especially. AFDC could have a decent F1 career, but I don't think he's the second coming either. I think the best junior team members around at the moment are Raffaele Marciello (Ferrari), Stoffel Vandoorne (McLaren) and Matt Parry (Caterham).

What about Kevin Magnussen (McLaren) and Sam Bird (Mercedes)?

Freeze-O-Kimi wrote:

Backmarker wrote:

Faustus wrote:Red Bull and Toro Rosso should dump Jean-Eric Vergne at the end of this year and take António Felix da Costa and Carlos Sainz Jr. for next year. Vergne will get one more year at Toro Rosso at best and then he'll be out to make room for someone else. Might as well dump him now.

Red Bull seem to have seen something in Carlos Sainz, Jr., but personally I don't rate him especially. AFDC could have a decent F1 career, but I don't think he's the second coming either. I think the best junior team members around at the moment are Raffaele Marciello (Ferrari), Stoffel Vandoorne (McLaren) and Matt Parry (Caterham).

JEV deserves a place on the grid. This guy scored the first top 6 for the team since the Vettel era so I would keep him and get da Costa to learn from him with Sainz Jr being the 3rd driver and get him some Friday drives.

And then have to dump JEV for 2015 because there won't be a drive at Red Bull (unless Ricciardo is terrible) and his drive will be taken by Sainz. So what is the point in keeping him around for another year?

Salamander wrote:

Backmarker wrote:

Faustus wrote:Red Bull and Toro Rosso should dump Jean-Eric Vergne at the end of this year and take António Felix da Costa and Carlos Sainz Jr. for next year. Vergne will get one more year at Toro Rosso at best and then he'll be out to make room for someone else. Might as well dump him now.

Red Bull seem to have seen something in Carlos Sainz, Jr., but personally I don't rate him especially. AFDC could have a decent F1 career, but I don't think he's the second coming either. I think the best junior team members around at the moment are Raffaele Marciello (Ferrari), Stoffel Vandoorne (McLaren) and Matt Parry (Caterham).

What about Kevin Magnussen (McLaren) and Sam Bird (Mercedes)?

Robin Frijns until he loses his Sauber drive because of money

Salamander wrote:

Backmarker wrote:

Faustus wrote:Red Bull and Toro Rosso should dump Jean-Eric Vergne at the end of this year and take António Felix da Costa and Carlos Sainz Jr. for next year. Vergne will get one more year at Toro Rosso at best and then he'll be out to make room for someone else. Might as well dump him now.

Red Bull seem to have seen something in Carlos Sainz, Jr., but personally I don't rate him especially. AFDC could have a decent F1 career, but I don't think he's the second coming either. I think the best junior team members around at the moment are Raffaele Marciello (Ferrari), Stoffel Vandoorne (McLaren) and Matt Parry (Caterham).

What about Kevin Magnussen (McLaren) and Sam Bird (Mercedes)?

Magnussen seems to be very good but Bird, despite being occasionally good, won't get a Formula 1 seat. He needs to start looking for a drive in the DTM or LMP2.

Salamander wrote:What about Kevin Magnussen (McLaren) and Sam Bird (Mercedes)?

Sam Bird has never won a thing in his junior career, though he did have a good Formula Renault 3.5 season in 2012. His future is as Mercedes' Gary Paffett - so he'll be in DTM before long. Kevin Magnussen is decent enough, I'm just not wowed by him particularly. His career to-date doesn't quite excite me as much as Marciello, Vandoorne and Parry.

Faustus wrote:

Freeze-O-Kimi wrote:

Backmarker wrote:Red Bull seem to have seen something in Carlos Sainz, Jr., but personally I don't rate him especially. AFDC could have a decent F1 career, but I don't think he's the second coming either. I think the best junior team members around at the moment are Raffaele Marciello (Ferrari), Stoffel Vandoorne (McLaren) and Matt Parry (Caterham).

JEV deserves a place on the grid. This guy scored the first top 6 for the team since the Vettel era so I would keep him and get da Costa to learn from him with Sainz Jr being the 3rd driver and get him some Friday drives.

And then have to dump JEV for 2015 because there won't be a drive at Red Bull (unless Ricciardo is terrible) and his drive will be taken by Sainz. So what is the point in keeping him around for another year?

He could be being used to spur Ricciardo on - Red Bull are publicly putting pressure on him to start delivering results pretty quickly in 2014, and, given how harsh their driver policies are, I wouldn't be surprised if Vergne is being kept as an unsubtle reminder that there is another driver in reserve who could take his place sooner rather than later. Vernge is something of an insurance policy for Red Bull if Ricciardo cannot meet their expectations and is forced out and a useful yardstick for them to judge the merits of whoever ends up being promoted from the junior ranks into Toro Rosso.

As for Sainz Jr., it seems that he has moved into the frame on the strength of his performance in the Young Driver test in Silverstone - not just in terms of his performance on track, but it seems that the quality of his feedback to the engineers was much higher than they'd anticipated (and possibly better than da Costa's feedback too). It also seems that da Costa's difficult FR 3.5 season which sees him lying in 5th and a long way off the leaders - not to mention being beaten by Vandoorne, who has less experience to draw on at this level than da Costa - has made Red Bull re-evaluate their options.
Mind you, I believe that Sainz Jr would not automatically qualify for a Superlicence, so there would need to be some negotiations between the local motorsport federations, Red Bull and the FIA to obtain a licence first. That would probably be a minor impediment though, as Red Bull could probably stick him in an old car for a test and let him gain experience that way instead.

takagi_for_the_win wrote:Rejoice! We might just see our new reject Messiah next year!

Aw, it's not Ma Qing Hua.

takagi_for_the_win wrote:Rejoice! We might just see our new reject Messiah next year!

Would that make him the youngest driver who raced in F1?

Aerospeed wrote:

takagi_for_the_win wrote:Rejoice! We might just see our new reject Messiah next year!

Would that make him the youngest driver who raced in F1?

It absolutely would. Jaime Alguersuari was aged 19 years 125 days. If Sirotkin makes his debut in Australia next year on 16 March, he will be aged 18 years 201 days, which is 289 days or almost a whole year younger than Alguersuari. In my opinion, Sirotkin making his F1 debut at such a young age will be comparable to that of an underage teenager becoming a parent.

good_Ralf wrote:

Aerospeed wrote:

takagi_for_the_win wrote:Rejoice! We might just see our new reject Messiah next year!

Would that make him the youngest driver who raced in F1?

It absolutely would. Jaime Alguersuari was aged 19 years 125 days. If Sirotkin makes his debut in Australia next year on 16 March, he will be aged 18 years 201 days, which is 289 days or almost a whole year younger than Alguersuari. In my opinion, Sirotkin making his F1 debut at such a young age will be comparable to that of an underage teenager becoming a parent.

Sirotkin = the new Esteban Tuero. If it helps Sauber survive, I'm for it. I don't think they'll have a good enough car next season to give any real F1 prospects a decent change to prove themselves (much like Gutierrez this year, although he is being thrashed by Hulkenburg).

So Monisha Kaltenborn has pretty confirmed Sirotkin will race if he gets a superlicense in the Sky coverage too.

Let's be honest, it's a small price to pay for Sauber to stay alive. He's just turned 18, he's sticking it to some of the more experienced drivers in FR3.5, so any arguments that he's a bad driver won't hold water with me. Too much too young, perhaps, but it's a risk Sauber need to take.

I believe in Sergey Sirotkin.

Ataxia wrote:So Monisha Kaltenborn has pretty confirmed Sirotkin will race if he gets a superlicense in the Sky coverage too.

Let's be honest, it's a small price to pay for Sauber to stay alive. He's just turned 18, he's sticking it to some of the more experienced drivers in FR3.5, so any arguments that he's a bad driver won't hold water with me. Too much too young, perhaps, but it's a risk Sauber need to take.

I believe in Sergey Sirotkin.

And all it takes to get a superlicence is complete 300km in 2 days. Not exactly hard.

Ataxia wrote:I believe in Sergey Sirotkin.

Me too. Sirotkin for WDC in 2017!

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/109738

http://t.co/Hhw1xLhZoM

wsrgo wrote:http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/109738
http://t.co/Hhw1xLhZoM

Loving the picture at the bottom of the article

CoopsII wrote:

wsrgo wrote:http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/109738
http://t.co/Hhw1xLhZoM

Loving the picture at the bottom of the article

Which one? AMUS or AS?

rachel1990 wrote:I agree- Ferrari may just move Bianchi into the Sauber seat instead (a bit like Massa in 2004). Ferrai are starting to look into the future and I would not be surprised if in the next 10 years we see Hulkenberg and Bianchi as the two ferrari drivers. Ferrari I think like to farm out potential drivers to see if they can make it (usually to Sauber) just like Red Bull.

But Ferrari must stop living in the past with Massa. Yes he was a championship contender in 2008 and he had some great wins (Brazil 2008 Brazil 2006) but ever since 2011 and the Pirelli tyres whatever pace he had has gone and the team would only be damaging themselves further if they didn't cut their loses and let him go!

Does Ferrari really have that much of an influence over Sauber? And agree fully on Massa, as much as I like the guy.

Red Bull should dump Vergne? Didn't they already make that mistake dumping both Buemi and Alg at the same time so we definitely had no idea whether Ricciardo-Vergne were any good or not at all?

Plus, Sainz jr's junior formula record definitely isn't worth a F1 seat yet.

giraurd wrote:Red Bull should dump Vergne? Didn't they already make that mistake dumping both Buemi and Alg at the same time so we definitely had no idea whether Ricciardo-Vergne were any good or not at all?

Plus, Sainz jr's junior formula record definitely isn't worth a F1 seat yet.

Vergne sent a nice "take that" to those who doubt him by making his first Q3 appearance in the dry?

Freeze-O-Kimi wrote:Vergne sent a nice "take that" to those who doubt him by making his first Q3 appearance in the dry?

Yeah, that was a good effort. But under pressure he made that mistake that nearly caused a massive crash and he got beaten by Ricciardo again.

I'm thinking that Massa's drive today will see him retained at Ferrari next year. They seem to want to keep him so could easily use this as an excuse to do so- he may not be the best driver they could choose but in terms of being settled within the team and playing second to Alonso they couldn't find anyone better.
Personally I hope Ferrari sign on a new driver for 2014, but I can't help feeling that they'll stick with Massa yet again.

It appears Hulkenberg isn't convinced that even his amazing result will give him the Ferrari seat. If he gets the drive and the Ferrari turbo is apparently going to be weak next year, will Hulk's potential move pay off, again?

14 Hundred Hours wrote:I'm thinking that Massa's drive today will see him retained at Ferrari next year. They seem to want to keep him so could easily use this as an excuse to do so- he may not be the best driver they could choose but in terms of being settled within the team and playing second to Alonso they couldn't find anyone better.
Personally I hope Ferrari sign on a new driver for 2014, but I can't help feeling that they'll stick with Massa yet again.

This seems legitimate, but Ferrari have kept Massa too long. They should have sacked him in 2011. He hasn't done crap since, and he can play No. 2 role, but that's when he's fast enough.