1980 Alternate F1 - Season final at Suzuka up

[CaptainGetz12]

We will be happy to continue with Renault. However, it is not the right time for negotiations, without any engine prices announced (and development system not fully clear).

Of course! We have no idea what engine for the new format will cost so we wont post prices until next year, end of this year at the earliest.

[Salamander]

Should BMW pull out of Formula 1, McLaren would be interested in taking over their engine production facilities.

[Hermann95]

In generally Matra is not agains this new system but we would like to have to following questions answered:
Will the base budget for every engine manufacturer be the same or will there be differences?
Will manufacturers be able to sell their old engines too or only the new one?

[Wallio]

Should BMW pull out of Formula 1, McLaren would be interested in taking over their engine production facilities.

While we would discuss such possibilities, hopefully it will not come to that. The FISA needs to see the light and realize what a stupid idea this is, and that the Alfa, BMW, BRM, and Mantra engines (which power a majority of the field) are a mere 2 years old (1 year old in the case of the BRM). Why in God's name would you require new ones? Are you banning turbos? If not there's no reason to. And why drop the bomb on us now? I certainly wouldn't have built any upgrades if I knew I would need the money next year. And now no one will be upgrading their engines. You have to save your money now. This is a lame attempt to introduce BoP into engines, and as the best engine builder in F1, we understandably feel discriminated against.

Chassis builders got a year's heads-up, we didn't that hardly seems fair. And why will development significantly go up? Budgets better go up too. You gave us only 5 mil the first year, and nothing this year, but we are supposed to build whole new engines? No. Scrap this nonsense altogether, or at the very very very very least:

1.)Delay these unnecessary and frankly discriminatory rules for two years (a four year life-span for an engine design is at least believable)
2.)Refund 100% of our development money to put into the new engines.
3.)Allow us to sell the old engines as well, for at least a year.
4.)Freeze Engine regs for 5 years afterwards

This would be the minimum if you are really hellbent on needless change. Otherwise BMW will have to really think about if it wants to stay in a sport that pointless changes rules every two years, especially when we have nothing left to prove in said sport.

[DemocalypseNow]

The FISA needs to see the light and realize what a stupid idea this is, and that the Alfa, BMW, BRM, and Mantra engines (which power a majority of the field) are a mere 2 years old (1 year old in the case of the BRM). Why in God's name would you require new ones? Are you banning turbos? If not there's no reason to. And why drop the bomb on us now? I certainly wouldn't have built any upgrades if I knew I would need the money next year. And now no one will be upgrading their engines. You have to save your money now. This is a lame attempt to introduce BoP into engines, and as the best engine builder in F1, we understandably feel discriminated against.

Shut up cretin.

[Hermann95]

Should BMW pull out of Formula 1, McLaren would be interested in taking over their engine production facilities.

While we would discuss such possibilities, hopefully it will not come to that. The FISA needs to see the light and realize what a stupid idea this is, and that the Alfa, BMW, BRM, and Mantra engines (which power a majority of the field) are a mere 2 years old (1 year old in the case of the BRM). Why in God's name would you require new ones? Are you banning turbos? If not there's no reason to. And why drop the bomb on us now? I certainly wouldn't have built any upgrades if I knew I would need the money next year. And now no one will be upgrading their engines. You have to save your money now. This is a lame attempt to introduce BoP into engines, and as the best engine builder in F1, we understandably feel discriminated against.

Chassis builders got a year's heads-up, we didn't that hardly seems fair. And why will development significantly go up? Budgets better go up too. You gave us only 5 mil the first year, and nothing this year, but we are supposed to build whole new engines? No. Scrap this nonsense altogether, or at the very very very very least:

1.)Delay these unnecessary and frankly discriminatory rules for two years (a four year life-span for an engine design is at least believable)
2.)Refund 100% of our development money to put into the new engines.
3.)Allow us to sell the old engines as well, for at least a year.
4.)Freeze Engine regs for 5 years afterwards

This would be the minimum if you are really hellbent on needless change. Otherwise BMW will have to really think about if it wants to stay in a sport that pointless changes rules every two years, especially when we have nothing left to prove in said sport.

Don't you guys at BMW think jumping out of the sport is the right answer?
I know BMW has probably the best engines(at least the most succesful) and that we have only a very short preperation time but is it possible that you guys are recating like this because you are feared that your engine isn't the best anymore?
Look at the advantages:
-Turbo engines will be better
-we'll get a starting budget
-the fight on the engine market will be bigger(no advantage for BMW, we know)

I think you should at least ask for a few rule clarifications before you react like this....

[Wallio]

Should BMW pull out of Formula 1, McLaren would be interested in taking over their engine production facilities.

While we would discuss such possibilities, hopefully it will not come to that. The FISA needs to see the light and realize what a stupid idea this is, and that the Alfa, BMW, BRM, and Mantra engines (which power a majority of the field) are a mere 2 years old (1 year old in the case of the BRM). Why in God's name would you require new ones? Are you banning turbos? If not there's no reason to. And why drop the bomb on us now? I certainly wouldn't have built any upgrades if I knew I would need the money next year. And now no one will be upgrading their engines. You have to save your money now. This is a lame attempt to introduce BoP into engines, and as the best engine builder in F1, we understandably feel discriminated against.

Chassis builders got a year's heads-up, we didn't that hardly seems fair. And why will development significantly go up? Budgets better go up too. You gave us only 5 mil the first year, and nothing this year, but we are supposed to build whole new engines? No. Scrap this nonsense altogether, or at the very very very very least:

1.)Delay these unnecessary and frankly discriminatory rules for two years (a four year life-span for an engine design is at least believable)
2.)Refund 100% of our development money to put into the new engines.
3.)Allow us to sell the old engines as well, for at least a year.
4.)Freeze Engine regs for 5 years afterwards

This would be the minimum if you are really hellbent on needless change. Otherwise BMW will have to really think about if it wants to stay in a sport that pointless changes rules every two years, especially when we have nothing left to prove in said sport.

Don't you guys at BMW think jumping out of the sport is the right answer?
I know BMW has probably the best engines(at least the most succesful) and that we have only a very short preperation time but is it possible that you guys are recating like this because you are feared that your engine isn't the best anymore?
Look at the advantages:
-Turbo engines will be better
-we'll get a starting budget
-the fight on the engine market will be bigger(no advantage for BMW, we know)

I think you should at least ask for a few rule clarifications before you react like this....

Out of character, I think BMW leaving would be perfectly reasonable. You have a company invest nearly $6,000,000 (a TON of money) in the middle of the 1978/79 Jimmy Carter recession then change the rules FOR NO REASON with NO NOTICE. After just TWO YEARS. And see how they react. Especially when they have already dominated the sport. (BMW left F1 abruptly in RL).

Again, unless PI is banning turbos, three's NO reason to change engine rules. NONE. The Mantra, BMW, and Renault engines are all close. Just because some people didn't build turbos, that's not a reason to penalize everyone else. No need for any lame BoP. This is F1.

I will wait for Pi's explanation, but I am very, very upset about this. Here's hoping he realizes what a huge mistake he's making.

[Hermann95]

I had a short talk with him on the chat and he said he would like to implement a very similar system to the new chassis building system.
This sounds quite good to me and i don't think that it would be too much of a penalty to anyone. By now no one had the oportunity to build a new engine and i think that at least the change from N/a to turbo should be possible. No they have a chance. I think this will be more a challenge than a penalty

[pi314159]

OK, first of all, the change isn't needless. The main flaw of the current system is that it is impossible to change from a normally aspirated engine to a turbo, or the other way round. If you start building a new engine under the current regulations, you're massively behind in developmed, and you have no chance of catching up.

This is why I want to introduce a similar system for engines as I did for chassis. That way, you build a new engine, and at some point it reaches the end of its development, and you have to start working on a new one.

Also, the old system would include the possibility of teams spending massively on engines, and invest all their money on engine power, which would be much more effective than buying top speed upgrades for each team.

The development budgets for next year will certainly take previous success into account, my intention is not to screw over the competetive engine suppliers in favour of the less competetive ones, but simply to fix a flawed system.

However, I admit that I made the mistake of being too unspecific in my original post.

[Wallio]

I disagree, you could certainly make the switch in aspirations. Players simply chose not to. And why no notice? You at least gave chassis players some notice. This should be delayed. How is two years "the end of its development"?

And you still haven't given any specfics, what is the new system. You realize the season IS HALF OVER don't you? Can we get a set of rules here?

[Hermann95]

I disagree, you could certainly make the switch in aspirations. Players simply chose not to. And why no notice? You at least gave chassis players some notice. This should be delayed.

And you still haven't given any specfics, what is the new system. You realize the season IS HALF OVER don't you? Can we get a set of rules here?

I have to dissagree with you. No engine manufacture would have been able to switch asparitaion whithout getting completely screwed. You cannot build a new engine with 1m$ and hope it is good enough...

[Wallio]

I disagree, you could certainly make the switch in aspirations. Players simply chose not to. And why no notice? You at least gave chassis players some notice. This should be delayed.

And you still haven't given any specfics, what is the new system. You realize the season IS HALF OVER don't you? Can we get a set of rules here?

I have to dissagree with you. No engine manufacture would have been able to switch asparitaion whithout getting completely screwed. You cannot build a new engine with 1m$ and hope it is good enough...

I don't understand why you're ok with this. Your getting the shaft just as bad as I am here. We built proper engines, and are being penalized for it. Its just Calvinball, pure and simple.

If pi ever puts up a set of rules, I will make a final decision, but its looking more and more like BMW is out.

[kevinbotz]

Shadow displeased over BMW threats to withdraw

Don Nichols, team principal of the BMW Shadow Racing Team, has said to AUTOSPORT that the team is "alarmed" following BMW's recent threat to withdraw from the sport. The controversy comes on the back of a sweeping set of regulation changes announced by FISA earlier this week, including a loosening of the technical clauses regarding turbocharged engines albeit at the expense of increased cost.

"We're worried, of course", said Nichols, "I think any team would if they've just been informed that their engine supplier is considering pulling out of the sport with hardly any advance notice. Moreover, this sudden statement of intent was made without any consultation with the [BMW powered] teams. We only found out when our technical director spit his coffee out when he came across the headline of this morning's newspaper. I rung up Teddy [Mayer] and Ron [Dennis] afterwards; they hadn't had any inkling of what was going on either."

"Beyond performance, we need stability in an engine supplier", continued the Shadow chief, "As much as I dislike maligning others, this sort of conduct is absolutely unacceptable. We can't have core technology partners hanging us out to dry every time FISA announces a rule change. We're in the middle of a fight for third in the Constructor's and we'll likely be in close fights in the future; the last thing we need is chaos and disruption."

When asked for his opinion on the new regulation changes, Nichols was complementary. "I think it's perfectly reasonable, and I'm saying this from the perspective of the team that has probably benefited most from ground effects. Costs are likely to increase, which is going to be tough on an outfit like ours, but with regards to driver safety and technical innovation, you can hardly argue that it's for the better. It also offers an opportunity for us, and other teams, to close the gap to McLaren, and that should improve the situation for the spectators as well."

[Wallio]

Shadow displeased over BMW threats to withdraw

Don Nichols, team principal of the BMW Shadow Racing Team, has said to AUTOSPORT that the team is "alarmed" following BMW's recent threat to withdraw from the sport. The controversy comes on the back of a sweeping set of regulation changes announced by FISA earlier this week, including a loosening of the technical clauses regarding turbocharged engines albeit at the expense of increased cost.

"We're worried, of course", said Nichols, "I think any team would if they've just been informed that their engine supplier is considering pulling out of the sport with hardly any advance notice. Moreover, this sudden statement of intent was made without any consultation with the [BMW powered] teams. We only found out when our technical director spit his coffee out when he came across the headline of this morning's newspaper. I rung up Teddy [Mayer] and Ron [Dennis] afterwards; they hadn't had any inkling of what was going on either."

"Beyond performance, we need stability in an engine supplier", continued the Shadow chief, "As much as I dislike maligning others, this sort of conduct is absolutely unacceptable. We can't have core technology partners hanging us out to dry every time FISA announces a rule change. We're in the middle of a fight for third in the Constructor's and we'll likely be in close fights in the future; the last thing we need is chaos and disruption."

When asked for his opinion on the new regulation changes, Nichols was complementary. "I think it's perfectly reasonable, and I'm saying this from the perspective of the team that has probably benefited most from ground effects. Costs are likely to increase, which is going to be tough on an outfit like ours, but with regards to driver safety and technical innovation, you can hardly argue that it's for the better. It also offers an opportunity for us, and other teams, to close the gap to McLaren, and that should improve the situation for the spectators as well."

Shadow received as much warning as BMW did. NONE. The FIA just decided to willy-nilly change the rules. A delay is the ONLY reasonable course of action from them.

I will say again, the engines in this series are a mere two years old, they certainly haven't hit their development ceiling. And BMW would have not invested one dime in upgrades this year if they knew they would need the money next year.

[DemocalypseNow]

Gah, BMW need to shut up and stop being such egotistical crybabies. Nobody cares. Go rant in a corner where nobody can hear you, child! Let the men continue running the sport while wimps like you crawl your way out the door in tears!

[Wallio]

Gah, BMW need to shut up and stop being such egotistical crybabies. Nobody cares. Go rant in a corner where nobody can hear you, child! Let the men continue running the sport while wimps like you crawl your way out the door in tears!

I doubt BMW would be the only one to leave. This will kill the smaller engine makers. Its going to be Ferrari vs. the DFV again at this rate.


Out of Character: Just so you guys don't think I'm bitching because I'm winning, I run Cosworth in Hermann's Alt-F1 and am getting my arse handed to me, but I think his system is fine. This change is just needless.

[pasta_maldonado]

Shadow received as much warning as BMW did. NONE. The FIA just decided to willy-nilly change the rules. A delay is the ONLY reasonable course of action from them.

I will say again, the engines in this series are a mere two years old, they certainly haven't hit their development ceiling. And BMW would have not invested one dime in upgrades this year if they knew they would need the money next year.

2. Revised engine building system
In addition to the new chassis regulations, new engine regulations will be introduced as well. The power difference between turbocharged and non-turbocharged engines will be increased, however building costs (but not developing costs) will be twice as high for turbocharged engines. Every engine manufacturer will get a basic budget for 1981, and will have to develop a new engine for 1981.

All engine manufacturers will receive a standing budget, with any money saved from the previous seasons carried over, I think. It's not like you'll have no money to develop an engine. And the real reason for this change is that out-of-character the engine rules are flawed as pi has explained, and thus need to be changed like the chassis system.

[Wallio]

Shadow received as much warning as BMW did. NONE. The FIA just decided to willy-nilly change the rules. A delay is the ONLY reasonable course of action from them.

I will say again, the engines in this series are a mere two years old, they certainly haven't hit their development ceiling. And BMW would have not invested one dime in upgrades this year if they knew they would need the money next year.

2. Revised engine building system
In addition to the new chassis regulations, new engine regulations will be introduced as well. The power difference between turbocharged and non-turbocharged engines will be increased, however building costs (but not developing costs) will be twice as high for turbocharged engines. Every engine manufacturer will get a basic budget for 1981, and will have to develop a new engine for 1981.

All engine manufacturers will receive a standing budget, with any money saved from the previous seasons carried over, I think. It's not like you'll have no money to develop an engine. And the real reason for this change is that out-of-character the engine rules are flawed as pi has explained, and thus need to be changed like the chassis system.

I would have carried over every penny, now I can't since I spent a ton (not counting what McLaren Funded). And I still disagree the system was flawed. No one will change my mind on that.

[DemocalypseNow]

I would have carried over every penny, now I can't since I spent a ton (not counting what McLaren Funded). And I still disagree the system was flawed. No one will change my mind on that.

We get it already, you're stubborn like hell. Will you stop bitching for just five minutes?!

[Hermann95]

I would have carried over every penny, now I can't since I spent a ton (not counting what McLaren Funded). And I still disagree the system was flawed. No one will change my mind on that.

You still will get the highest starting budget i asume, bcause BMW is the most succesful engine. So where is your problem???

[Wallio]

I would have carried over every penny, now I can't since I spent a ton (not counting what McLaren Funded). And I still disagree the system was flawed. No one will change my mind on that.

We get it already, you're stubborn like hell. Will you stop bitching for just five minutes?!

Fine I'll shut up until Pi posts the budgets and rules for engines for next season (which better happen quick, because again, this season is half over).

As of right now BMW is cancelling all of its future upgrades, and is only 50/50 (at best) on participation next year. If we withdraw however, we would be interested in selling to McLaren.


EDIT: Nowhere does it say that Hermann.

[kevinbotz]

Have those bloody Germans gone mad? This whole situation is completely ridiculous! We bust our *** signing with a large car manufacturer, and when FISA introduce a set of regulations that should be beneficial for them, they threaten to quit! And they're thinking they were RIGHT not informing us beforehand? Get me on the phone with Paris and Maranello...and ask Teddy if he's willing to take over the BMW engine plant when they bugger off.

[Salamander]

All I'll say on this matter is that, should BMW decide to leave the sport, McLaren is very interested in acquiring their engine production, assuming FISA approves.

[Nessafox]

See, i told you BMW were only in the sport for commercial reasons and have no passion for the sport! You aren't going to leave F1, right, Mr. Ferrari?

[kevinbotz]

Shadow reverses its decision.

[pasta_maldonado]

Brabham will spend 1,100,000 on ground effects and 400,000 on top speed. These will be the last upgrades we make this year.

[Salamander]

Contrary to our previous statement, McLaren will invest 600k into ground effects. Just as a precautionary measure.

[takagi_for_the_win]

Ferrari are introducing a reliability upgrade, in the faint hope of plugging some of the massive holes in our engines Upgrades cost 200k per engine, and as always Ferrari will buy them, and pay full price.

Also, in a fit of unprecedented spending, the chassis guys will invest 1.8 million into ground effects and 600k into top speed.

[CaptainGetz12]

Almost half oof the season is over, here are some more planned rule changes for 1981:

1. Upgrades

-Upgrading will be possible in the following areas: Grip, Top Speed and Reliability
-Due to the ground effect ban, ground effect upgrades will no longer be available
-Upgrade costs will no longer be the same for every upgrade. Instead, they start at a cost of 25 000 credits, and become 25 000 credits more expensive for every upgrade. So your 5th upgrade for example costs 125 000 credits, and your 15th will already cost you 375 000 credits. This change is because every chassis allows only limited development, and it becomes more and more difficult to gain more time with an old car. So at some point, you will have to build a new chassis. Once you have built a new chassis, upgrade costs restart at 25 000 credits.

2. Revised engine building system
In addition to the new chassis regulations, new engine regulations will be introduced as well. The power difference between turbocharged and non-turbocharged engines will be increased, however building costs (but not developing costs) will be twice as high for turbocharged engines. Every engine manufacturer will get a basic budget for 1981, and will have to develop a new engine for 1981.

3. Entry list cap
To limit entry list sizes, the number of entries will be capped at 40. This doesn't include teams taking part in the 1980 season, as I don't want to kick anyone out. But 44 entries per grand prix is too much, so the entry of new teams will be delayed if 40 or more cars are entered for 1981.

In addition to that, I'm considering to increase entry fees to encourage users to run single-car teams. No decision has been madeon that though.

4. Tyre suppliers
Four different tyre suppliers will be available for 1981: Goodyear, Michelin, Pirelli and Avon. At the moment, I have no plans to make them user controlled.

5. Driver limit
The number of drivers will be limited to 8 per team and season.

We're already noticing a spending rush for ground effects, so we want to ask:

For next year will ground effect upgrades be completely banned therby nullifying any upgrades, or will the management simply be locking ground effects at where they are at the end of the season?

[Salamander]

We're already noticing a spending rush for ground effects, so we want to ask:

For next year will ground effect upgrades be completely banned therby nullifying any upgrades, or will the management simply be locking ground effects at where they are at the end of the season?

Uh.... considering the fact that the IC reason we have a new chassis system is because ground effects is banned, I'm pretty sure we won't be able to keep them.

[CaptainGetz12]

We're already noticing a spending rush for ground effects, so we want to ask:

For next year will ground effect upgrades be completely banned therby nullifying any upgrades, or will the management simply be locking ground effects at where they are at the end of the season?

Uh.... considering the fact that the IC reason we have a new chassis system is because ground effects is banned, I'm pretty sure we won't be able to keep them.

Then why spend so much on ground effects when theyre gonna be banned??? Sounds kinda contradictory...

[Nessafox]

Ferrari are introducing a reliability upgrade, in the faint hope of plugging some of the massive holes in our engines Upgrades cost 200k per engine, and as always Ferrari will buy them, and pay full price.

Also, in a fit of unprecedented spending, the chassis guys will invest 1.8 million into ground effects and 600k into top speed.

Considering we don't get in to races, it's not going to help us, but we'll take the upgrade, you know, just in case we do make it once.

[Salamander]

We're already noticing a spending rush for ground effects, so we want to ask:

For next year will ground effect upgrades be completely banned therby nullifying any upgrades, or will the management simply be locking ground effects at where they are at the end of the season?

Uh.... considering the fact that the IC reason we have a new chassis system is because ground effects is banned, I'm pretty sure we won't be able to keep them.

Then why spend so much on ground effects when theyre gonna be banned??? Sounds kinda contradictory...

Because a higher WCC ranking means more prize money and more chance to get better sponsors.

[DemocalypseNow]

Osella will spend;

200K on engine upgrade for Car #44 (Riccardo Patrese)
200K on engine upgrade for Car #45 (Michele Alboreto)
200K on grip upgrade for chassis

[pi314159]

1980 British Grand Prix - Pre-qualifying

1. Jean-Pierre Jabouille (Rebaque HR101) 1:14.298
2. Jacky Ickx (March 801) +0.252
3. Nelson Piquet (Tyrrell 010) +0.601
4. Jochen Mass (Kauhsen WK2) +0.656
5. Jan Lammers (Tyrrell 010) +0.848
6. Clay Regazzoni (March 801) +0.898
7. Brian Henton (Surtees TS21) +0.983
8. Tony Trimmer (Rebaque HR101) +1.071
9. Chris Amon (Surtees TS21) +1.087
10. Manfred Winkelhock (Kauhsen WK2) +1.524
11. Divina Galica (Boro 004) +1.587
12. Derek Warwick (Boro 004) +1.624
13. Jochen Dauer (Wolf WR9) +3.209
14. Bruno Giacomelli (ATS D3) +3.639
15. Marc Surer (ATS D3) +3.751



1980 British Grand Prix - Qualifying
1. James Hunt (McLaren M29) 1:11.181
2. Tom Pryce (McLaren M29) +0.229
3. Didier Pironi (Ligier JS11-15) +0.649
4. Patrick Depailler (Arrows A3) +1.154
5. Mike Thackwell (Ligier JS11-15) +1.402
6. Jacques Laffite (Arrows A3) +1.474
7. Jody Scheckter (Brabham BT49) +1.524
8. Keke Rosberg (Brabham BT49) +1.914
9. Elio de Angelis (Ferrari 312T5) +2.017
10. Gilles Villeneuve (Ferrari 312T5) +2.142
11. Patrick Tambay (Shadow DN11) +2.192
12. Stefan Johansson (Shadow DN11) +2.207
13. Jean-Pierre Jarier (Williams FW07B) +2.243
14. Clay Regazzoni (March 801) +2.667
15. Riccardo Patrese (Osella FA1) +2.684
16. Jacky Ickx (March 801) +3.115
17. Carlos Pace (Williams FW07B) +3.135
18. Carlos Reutemann (Ensign N180) +3.278
19. Derek Daly (Project Four OP4-1) +3.288
20. Tom Sneva (Ensign N180) +3.291
21. Michele Alboreto (Osella FA1) +3.473
22. Nigel Mansell (Alfa Romeo 180) +3.621
23. John Watson (Project Four OP4-1) +3.766
24. Nelson Piquet (Tyrrell 010) +3.826
25. Alain Prost (Renault RE20) +4.073
26. Eddie Cheever (Alfa Romeo 180) +4.189
27. Niki Lauda (Lotus 81) +4.190
28. Alan Jones (Renault RE20) +4.370
29. Jan Lammers (Tyrrell 010) +4.397
30. Rick Mears (Lotus 81) +4.461
31. Mario Andretti (Penske PC7) +4.549
32. Jochen Mass (Kauhsen WK2) +4.772
33. Jean-Pierre Jabouille (Rebaque HR101) +4.835
34. Emerson Fittipaldi (Penske PC7) +4.931

[kevinbotz]

Shadow will spend 600,000 on improving top speed following Brands Hatch.

[Londoner]

Right, Project 4 will spend:

600k on top speed
300k on grip

[Hermann95]

As Williams looks to fall further behind we will make a little upgrade investing 600k into ground effect and 200k into top speed

[Salamander]

McLaren will put another 600k into ground effects after Brands Hatch.

[Nessafox]

Jochen Mass defenitely the driver of the year, he pre-qualified two races in a row