Grand Prix Rejects

mario wrote:

Jeroen Krautmeir wrote:

JeremyMcClean wrote:V12's in 2001

Huh?

Were it not for the regulations outlawing it, we could have seen a V12 engined car on the grid in 2001 - Toyota had originally designed their car around a V12 engine, only for the FIA to mandate a V10 engine. That's part of the reason why the TF101 ended up being used as a test car instead - because it was too late to produce a new engine and redesign the car around that.

I can't for the life of me remember what the engine in the TF101 was. Was it a V12 or an early-prototype V10?

<begin rant>
You know, ultimately the two biggest contributions to environmental damage of Formula 1 are:

1) The design, manufacturing and testing process of the cars. Not the travel and not the racing of said cars. The energy and raw materials consumption of the industry is incredibly high, because it is basically researching, developing and building prototypes, going through different iterations of designs and scrapping perfectly acceptable components that just happen to not produce the required extra 0.5 kg of downforce. They're not proven products that have been perfected in all of its inputs and mass-manufactured.
2) The spectators. The spectators, both at the track and at home. The track-side spectators drive, fly, take trains and whatever other means of transport they choose to watch the cars racing. The spectators are indulging in so-called 'unnecessary travel' in pursuit of entertainment, thoughtlessly generating carbon emissions. Also, the television spectators dare to sit in their homes (or any other place of their choice) and thoughtlessly squander electricity (the generation of which is the greatest contributor to carbon emissions) being entertained rather than using it for productive purposes.

Any chance to the engine formula will have a minimal effect (if any) to the environmental contribution of the sport. It's all about perception management. If the sport was actually concerned with environmental impact, we'd be racing road cars that have been scrapped.
Environmental campaigners use it an example of waste and non-beneficial use of limited resources, when there are far greater wastes of resources that need immediate and drastic attention.
<end of rant>

Faustus wrote:

mario wrote:

Jeroen Krautmeir wrote:Huh?

Were it not for the regulations outlawing it, we could have seen a V12 engined car on the grid in 2001 - Toyota had originally designed their car around a V12 engine, only for the FIA to mandate a V10 engine. That's part of the reason why the TF101 ended up being used as a test car instead - because it was too late to produce a new engine and redesign the car around that.

I can't for the life of me remember what the engine in the TF101 was. Was it a V12 or an early-prototype V10?

The TF101 was originally designed to accept a V12 engine, the build of which was begun in January 2000 and the first dyno test conducted in September. Once the FIA banned the V12 configuration, the design of the TF101 (which was being built at the same time) was adapted to accept a V10, and was launched on March 23, 2001, so the car always tested with a V10.

RAK wrote:The 2.4L V8s that the Formula One cars use now sound better than the highest-revving V10s in 2005. The V10s only sounded good during the early 1990s, when they were limited in rev range.

Heresy!

I've recently been watching old races and it struck me how good and better sounded the V10s from 2003-2005.

Jeroen Krautmeir wrote:

JeremyMcClean wrote:V12's in 2001

Huh?

Oops!

The point still stands. We used to have V12's, now we have V6's in 2014.

Rosberg is the new Heidfeld.

DanielPT wrote:Rosberg is the new Heidfeld.

As much as I don't want to I'm actually inclining to agree with you on that one.

DanielPT wrote:Rosberg is the new Heidfeld.

Therefore implying that Schumacher will win a race by fluke thanks to two frontrunners going out in an useless incident?

JeremyMcClean wrote:

DanielPT wrote:Rosberg is the new Heidfeld.

Therefore implying that Schumacher will win a race by fluke thanks to two frontrunners going out in an useless incident?

Following Canada where Schumacher almost fluke a podium, I would say it might happen!

I find more likely for Schumacher to win than for Rosberg. Seriously.

Ferrim wrote:I find more likely for Schumacher to win than for Rosberg. Seriously.

Perhaps.
It's true that Mercedes are unlikely to win on pure pace alone (perhaps they might have an outside chance at Monza, since they are regularly one of the quickest in a straight line) - the only likely circumstances where Mercedes might win would be in mixed weather conditions, where their rivals make strategic or driver errors. And it does seem that whilst Schumacher may not be quite as quick as perhaps he once was, it seems that his strategic decision making in mixed conditions is still reasonably good - some of his better races in 2010 were in mixed conditions, and we saw that Schumacher was bolder when it came to making strategic decisions in Canada than Rosberg.
True, perhaps having paid the price in Canada, Rosberg and his pit crew might be more willing to take a few risks in mixed conditions - but, even so, I suspect that Schumacher might be the driver who was prepared to take a bigger gamble in the chance of a bigger reward, and more likely to therefore seize the moment if presented to him.

That said, the odds of a Mercedes victory are pretty slim, it must be said - McLaren, Ferrari are Red Bull are all significantly more reliable this year, especially Red Bull, and it's hard to see anybody else even challenging for a podium, let alone a win. Only Renault managed to break the stranglehold of those teams on the podium slots, and only in the first two races, before falling progressively further back from them to the point where Mercedes are probably level, or perhaps even slightly better, than them.
On top of that, Mercedes still have major rear tyre wear problems - they've improved in qualifying recently, but their tyres are shot within a handful of laps in the race (Schumacher, for example, ran out of sets of soft tyres in Valencia and had to use several sets of hard tyres, compromising his lap times significantly).

Piquet > Mansell

redbulljack14 wrote:Piquet > Mansell

Which Piquet? If you're talking about Piquet Sr... agreed. Three championships to one, and Mansell was nothing but an egomaniac. (Then again, so was Piquet Sr, but at least he was joking most of the time. The only time I can see Piquet lose in a verbal situation is his crash into Salazar. That was entirely Piquet's fault. As for the fight, we'll call it a draw.)

JeremyMcClean wrote:

redbulljack14 wrote:Piquet > Mansell

Which Piquet? If you're talking about Piquet Sr... agreed. Three championships to one, and Mansell was nothing but an egomaniac. (Then again, so was Piquet Sr, but at least he was joking most of the time. The only time I can see Piquet lose in a verbal situation is his crash into Salazar. That was entirely Piquet's fault. As for the fight, we'll call it a draw.)

Obviously Piquet Sr.

Piquet Jr was a useless driver who had one very good race (Japan 08), and was still outdone by his teammate there too.

JeremyMcClean wrote:

redbulljack14 wrote:Piquet > Mansell

Which Piquet? If you're talking about Piquet Sr... agreed. Three championships to one, and Mansell was nothing but an egomaniac. (Then again, so was Piquet Sr, but at least he was joking most of the time. The only time I can see Piquet lose in a verbal situation is his crash into Salazar. That was entirely Piquet's fault. As for the fight, we'll call it a draw.)

I think they were both equally good. Piquet was very consistent, but Mansell was usually faster. It was just like another Prost vs Senna affair, complete with intra-team feud (1986-1987).

Have I said this before? If not;

Mercedes is the next Toyota.

Here's my contribution:

Anthony Davidson is massively over-rated.
Massa has never been the same since Hungary 09.
Webber needs to retire to save the last little bit of his worthless and talentless dignity.
Eddie Jordan needs to bathplug off.

AdrianSutil wrote:Anthony Davidson is massively over-rated.

Totally disagree. He is an excellent pundit on Radio 5, and is really competitive in the Peugeot 908. Plus he was pretty handy in the Super Aguri.

AdrianSutil wrote:
Massa has never been the same since Hungary 09.

True. Never looked like winning a race since (apart from Germany last year), let alone challenge for the championship, right down to the final corner of the final race of the season.

AdrianSutil wrote:Webber needs to retire to save the last little bit of his worthless and talentless dignity.

Don't know about retiring, but he is NOT worthless and talentless...

AdrianSutil wrote:Eddie Jordan needs to bathplug off.

True, but who would you replace him with? Jake Humphrey does need someone to talk to while DC is on his way to and from the commentary box.

AdrianSutil wrote:Anthony Davidson is massively over-rated.

Disagree.

AdrianSutil wrote:Massa has never been the same since Hungary 09.

Unfortunately you're right. It's a shame because by the end of 2008 and up until his accident he was clearly Ferrari's lead driver. Makes me wonder what else he can do with his career.

AdrianSutil wrote:Webber needs to retire to save the last little bit of his worthless and talentless dignity.

He needs to retire pretty soon, I agree. He will never be as successful as he was in 2010 and he is highly unlikely to ever be in the same situation again, so he might as well call it quits and retire before he embarasses himself any further.

AdrianSutil wrote:Eddie Jordan needs to bathplug off.

I think dr-baker has pretty much nailed it. Who could take the job? Get Blundell back? Another former driver or another ex-team personnel?

AdrianSutil wrote:Here's my contribution:

Anthony Davidson is massively over-rated.
Massa has never been the same since Hungary 09.
Webber needs to retire to save the last little bit of his worthless and talentless dignity.
Eddie Jordan needs to bathplug off.

Not sure about Davidson, i don't think we saw him enough in competitive machinery to make a full judgement: and i don't think we can judge an F1 driver on sportscars performances.

Massa opinion is too true: its got to the point now where people don't say 'Ferrari was quick this weekend', but 'Alonso was quick this weekend'... Furthermore if Massa even gets close to Alonso in any session or race i am a little surprised.

I feel Webber can still have an excellent role to play in a midfield team, since clearly his position at Red Bull (whatever he says) is going to be second fiddle to Vettel. Question is, would he take a step down to a team such as Renault or Sauber, or prefer to retire at the 'top'?

As to Eddie, as previously mentioned, finding a replacement is the difficulty, i would suggest Herbert or Davidson (when his comittments don't clash)

And here is one more opinion i have been thinking about (although i know its unworkable): Should 'long in the tooth drivers' have a limit: for me, its long past the time that Trulli, Barrichello and Schumi bow out gracefully.. although perhaps its too late for that!
On a separate note, i think this idea should definately be in place in GP2, to avoid such rejects as Pantano eventually winning the championship and denying young, interesting drivers better engineered cars.

What does everyone else think?

I dont mind commercial breaks in F1 on tv, its not like we're going to miss anything really, "oh no we're going to miss an overtake for the lead", bullshoes, thats what replays are for.

coloni_subaru wrote:
And here is one more opinion i have been thinking about (although i know its unworkable): Should 'long in the tooth drivers' have a limit: for me, its long past the time that Trulli, Barrichello and Schumi bow out gracefully.. although perhaps its too late for that!
On a separate note, i think this idea should definately be in place in GP2, to avoid such rejects as Pantano eventually winning the championship and denying young, interesting drivers better engineered cars.

What does everyone else think?

Trulli's 37. He's got two or three more years left in him. I remember reading a magazine with an interview with Trulli, and someone asked him about when he was retiring. Trulli replied something like "well, 37 is not an age to be thinking about retirement" or something like that.

You can't force someone out of a seat, unless he committed a crime, such as the example thrown in with Bertrand Gachot. However, you do have a point. Young drivers such as Romain Grosjean needs a seat more than Barrichello. Sure, Barrichello is more experienced, but he's only got a year left. If you hired Grosjean or someone with the same talent, results could be by the dozens! Sure, he might crash out here and there, but then again, so does "old" drivers due to brain fade. (It happens.) You can never really tell who is better, older and more experienced drivers or young and fresh drivers.

Now, if Schumacher hadn't retired, and still raced today, I would definitely consider that amazing, even if he did win another three championships in dominating style. However, he bowed out to Raikkonen in 2007, and guess what? Raikkonen won the championship, and Massa nearly did in 2008 if it wasn't for Timo Glock, but you can't blame him really, Hamilton had a lead foot on there.

Which brings me to this;

Massa is a one-season wonder. He was only notable in 2008.

ADx_Wales wrote:I dont mind commercial breaks in F1 on tv, its not like we're going to miss anything really, "oh no we're going to miss an overtake for the lead", bullshoes, thats what replays are for.

As Murray Walker said, "Anything can happen in Formula One, and it usually does!" Which is why I prefer not to have commercial breaks, but I don't mind having the side-by-side version, where the race is on one side and the commercial is on the (bigger) other side.

Another argument for the Heidfeld-Rosberg opinion is this bit of information that I found in The Oracle while looking at drivers records:

Ari Vatanen would be a better FIA president than Todt.

Benetton wrote:Ari Vatanen would be a better FIA president than Todt.

Humm... I fail to see how that sentence is unpopular!

JeremyMcClean wrote:

coloni_subaru wrote:
And here is one more opinion i have been thinking about (although i know its unworkable): Should 'long in the tooth drivers' have a limit: for me, its long past the time that Trulli, Barrichello and Schumi bow out gracefully.. although perhaps its too late for that!
On a separate note, i think this idea should definately be in place in GP2, to avoid such rejects as Pantano eventually winning the championship and denying young, interesting drivers better engineered cars.

What does everyone else think?

Trulli's 37. He's got two or three more years left in him. I remember reading a magazine with an interview with Trulli, and someone asked him about when he was retiring. Trulli replied something like "well, 37 is not an age to be thinking about retirement" or something like that.

You can't force someone out of a seat, unless he committed a crime, such as the example thrown in with Bertrand Gachot. However, you do have a point. Young drivers such as Romain Grosjean needs a seat more than Barrichello. Sure, Barrichello is more experienced, but he's only got a year left. If you hired Grosjean or someone with the same talent, results could be by the dozens! Sure, he might crash out here and there, but then again, so does "old" drivers due to brain fade. (It happens.) You can never really tell who is better, older and more experienced drivers or young and fresh drivers.

Now, if Schumacher hadn't retired, and still raced today, I would definitely consider that amazing, even if he did win another three championships in dominating style. However, he bowed out to Raikkonen in 2007, and guess what? Raikkonen won the championship, and Massa nearly did in 2008 if it wasn't for Timo Glock, but you can't blame him really, Hamilton had a lead foot on there.

Which brings me to this;

Massa is a one-season wonder. He was only notable in 2008.

ADx_Wales wrote:I dont mind commercial breaks in F1 on tv, its not like we're going to miss anything really, "oh no we're going to miss an overtake for the lead", bullshoes, thats what replays are for.

As Murray Walker said, "Anything can happen in Formula One, and it usually does!" Which is why I prefer not to have commercial breaks, but I don't mind having the side-by-side version, where the race is on one side and the commercial is on the (bigger) other side.

Trulli doesn't seem that old, over 5 years younger than Schumi, although I can see all 3 of them being gone by 2012, possibly leaving Webber as the oldest driver if still around. In a couple of years time, Heidfeld or Button could be the oldest driver left. I know Rubens has signed for 2012, I can see him calling it a day then.

And I do somewhat agree about Massa, the only other time I saw him driving particularly well was 2009 up to his injury, much better than Raikkonen up to that point.

I disagree about Massa, given how he's performed reletive to my expectations of him.

2006 - After a slow start he was regularly outpacing Schumacher at the end of the year, including demolishing everyone at Interlagos.
2007 - I didn't give him a hope in hell of challenging Raikkonen, but challenge he did. Indeed, it wasn't until the Italian Grand Prix (round 13 of 17) that Raikkonen was able to pull out a decisive advantage.
2008 - A fantastic season in which he made Raikkonen look a little slow!
2009 - Was getting more out of a bad car than Raikkonen (he had 22 points to Kimi's 10).

To me that's a period of about 3 years (second half of 2006 and first half of 2009) when he was consistently challenging - and beating - the best drivers F1 had to offer in the same car. He hasn't been the same since his accident, and perhaps never will be, but to call him a "one season wonder" is selling him short in my opinion.

Mark Webber, Rubens Barrichello, Nick Heidfeld and Jarno Trulli need to get the hell out of Formula 1.

Red Bull should get rid of Mark Webber and get Michael Schumacher to drive the 2nd car, for free. Schumacher doesn't need the money and I think he would jump at the chance to drive the best car on the grid. I want to see if he can still cut it if he's in the best car. Red Bull have nothing to lose as it is unlikely that he would do much worse than Mark Webber.

Faustus wrote:Mark Webber, Rubens Barrichello, Nick Heidfeld and Jarno Trulli need to get the hell out of Formula 1.

Red Bull should get rid of Mark Webber and get Michael Schumacher to drive the 2nd car, for free. Schumacher doesn't need the money and I think he would jump at the chance to drive the best car on the grid. I want to see if he can still cut it if he's in the best car. Red Bull have nothing to lose as it is unlikely that he would do much worse than Mark Webber.

Schumacher vs Vettel at Red Bull... now THAT is something I'ld pay good money to see although if Mercedes is anything to go by the end result may already be a foregone conclusion.

I think Nick still has a few seasons in him but whether any teams will give him the chance is another question altogether. Personally if Glock bails out of Virgin then Heidfeld would be the best candidate for the seat on ability and technical feedback and I think he could do well alongside Kovy at Team Lotus.

Jarno Trulli however is past it and to be honest should have retired when Toyota pulled out because right now he's wasting a seat that could have gone to some young talent with more ambition or, better yet a rejectful young talent. Plus when he leaves we don't have to listen to him rant on about Power Steering at every opportunity

Wizzie wrote:

Faustus wrote: Jarno Trulli need to get the hell out of Formula 1.

Jarno Trulli however is past it and to be honest should have retired when Toyota pulled out because right now he's wasting a seat that could have gone to some young talent with more ambition or, better yet a rejectful young talent. Plus when he leaves we don't have to listen to him rant on about Power Steering at every opportunity

Erm, might already have happened?

dr-baker wrote:

Wizzie wrote:

Faustus wrote: Jarno Trulli need to get the hell out of Formula 1.

Jarno Trulli however is past it and to be honest should have retired when Toyota pulled out because right now he's wasting a seat that could have gone to some young talent with more ambition or, better yet a rejectful young talent. Plus when he leaves we don't have to listen to him rant on about Power Steering at every opportunity

Erm, might already have happened?

It happened two hours after I posted that. Cut me some slack

Wizzie wrote:

dr-baker wrote:

Wizzie wrote:Jarno Trulli however is past it and to be honest should have retired when Toyota pulled out because right now he's wasting a seat that could have gone to some young talent with more ambition or, better yet a rejectful young talent. Plus when he leaves we don't have to listen to him rant on about Power Steering at every opportunity

Erm, might already have happened?

It happened two hours after I posted that. Cut me some slack

Oh, ok.

Wizzie wrote:

Faustus wrote:Mark Webber, Rubens Barrichello, Nick Heidfeld and Jarno Trulli need to get the hell out of Formula 1.

Red Bull should get rid of Mark Webber and get Michael Schumacher to drive the 2nd car, for free. Schumacher doesn't need the money and I think he would jump at the chance to drive the best car on the grid. I want to see if he can still cut it if he's in the best car. Red Bull have nothing to lose as it is unlikely that he would do much worse than Mark Webber.

Schumacher vs Vettel at Red Bull... now THAT is something I'ld pay good money to see although if Mercedes is anything to go by the end result may already be a foregone conclusion.

I think Nick still has a few seasons in him but whether any teams will give him the chance is another question altogether. Personally if Glock bails out of Virgin then Heidfeld would be the best candidate for the seat on ability and technical feedback and I think he could do well alongside Kovy at Team Lotus.

Jarno Trulli however is past it and to be honest should have retired when Toyota pulled out because right now he's wasting a seat that could have gone to some young talent with more ambition or, better yet a rejectful young talent. Plus when he leaves we don't have to listen to him rant on about Power Steering at every opportunity

I, too, question whether Schumacher would be able to drive alongside Vettel - cynically speaking, I suspect that Red Bull would not want their driver from being overshadowed by Schumacher's reputation as it would ruin their advertising. The point is, Webber, as far as Red Bull sees it, is a known quantity who has well established links within the team but is a non-threatening presence to Vettel, and Schumacher might spoil that balance - though I would also like to see if Schumacher could really hack it in a front running car.

As for Barrichello, Heidfeld and Webber, well, they aren't exactly bad drivers, if you consider things. In the case of Barrichello, it hasn't exactly helped that the FW33 was chronically unreliable in the opening races, and is overall not an especially competitive package.
As for Heidfeld, he was brought on board at Renault as a stop gap development driver, but Renault have effectively admitted they've gone the wrong way on their exhaust design (they're working on a Red Bull style exhaust for Germany), and a lot of high ranking officials at the team have left in recent months, so it's hardly surprising that Heidfeld is struggling to perform when the team as a whole have fallen apart somewhat.

Trulli, though, is struggling - but, after the Canadian GP, when the front suspension inerter collapsed, I can imagine that he might have become disillusioned about driving for Team Lotus. He does seem to have lost some of his motivation, so perhaps Trulli might well walk at the end of the year.

The thing is, with in season testing completely banned, it means that the teams are reluctant to change drivers because younger drivers lack that valuable experience. Only by having a driver effectively substitute your driver in practise sessions can you give them a reasonable amount of seat time - like Di Resta in 2010 - but that is time consuming. If in season testing was allowed, or there were more young driver test days, then perhaps we might see a few more teams being willing to take a risk on up and coming drivers, instead of hanging onto the Old Guard, as it were.

I enjoy watching the Hungarian Grand Prix.

East Londoner wrote:I enjoy watching the Hungarian Grand Prix.

I even vaguely enjoy watching the Valencian GP. But only on the BBC. Without ad breaks. Or suscriptions. Or PPV.

Liuzzi was more impressive than Vettel whilst they were teammates at Toro Rosso in the second half of 2007.

redbulljack14 wrote:Liuzzi was more impressive than Vettel whilst they were teammates at Toro Rosso in the second half of 2007.

Both drove 7 races and Vettel DNF'd three of them while Liuzzi finished all of them and 3 ahead of Vettel. Unfortunately the only one where Vettel finished ahead of Liuzzi was the only one that mattered... Nevertheless, I think that Joe Saward might agree with you!

DanielPT wrote:

redbulljack14 wrote:Liuzzi was more impressive than Vettel whilst they were teammates at Toro Rosso in the second half of 2007.

Both drove 7 races and Vettel DNF'd three of them while Liuzzi finished all of them and 3 ahead of Vettel. Unfortunately the only one where Vettel finished ahead of Liuzzi was the only one that mattered... Nevertheless, I think that Joe Saward might agree with you!

Shame for him it was too little too late, who knows where his career could have gone. Now he still needs that 6th place to get off this site.

Here's another one, Jonathan Palmer was a great commentator.

redbulljack14 wrote:Shame for him it was too little too late, who knows where his career could have gone. Now he still needs that 6th place to get off this site.

If he is going to get one, a rainy Spa with 1998 attrition rates would be a magnificient opportunity. It can happen!

redbulljack14 wrote:Here's another one, Jonathan Palmer was a great commentator.

I became a fan of F1 while he was alongside Murray Walker. Didn't put me off, but Brundle is better.