Ponderbox

FullMetalJack · Post by **FullMetalJack** » 18 Oct 2011, 21:25

JeremyMcClean wrote:
redbulljack14 wrote:
dr-baker wrote:But it would be better for Mark's reputation if he fought for the win and came second rather than being gifted the win by Vettel. He just needs to get into a position to fight for the win in the first place...

In other words, he needs to work on his starts.

I believe Korea was the first race I can recall in a long time that he didn't lose a position on the first corner.

Knowing him, he'd still lose places if he started last.

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » 18 Oct 2011, 21:56

redbulljack14 wrote:
JeremyMcClean wrote:
I believe Korea was the first race I can recall in a long time that he didn't lose a position on the first corner.

Knowing him, he'd still lose places if he started last.

And the medical car has put a MEGA-MEGA-MOVE on Mark Webber!

the Masked Lapwing · Post by **the Masked Lapwing** » 18 Oct 2011, 23:18

If Sebastian Vettel were to leave Red Bull right now, and drive the last few races for, say, Ferrari, what number would he, Red Bull etc. use?

Cynon · Post by **Cynon** » 19 Oct 2011, 00:08

the Masked Lapwing wrote:If Sebastian Vettel were to leave Red Bull right now, and drive the last few races for, say, Ferrari, what number would he, Red Bull etc. use?

Number trade in all likelihood.

Quite honestly, I want #1 to be reserved for the reigning champion, but the rest of the teams have their own choice of numbers. So Ferrari could use 27 and 28, McLaren 7 and 8, Red Bull 83 and 84(#83 comes from a Red Bull can being 8.3 ounces, and it's been used in NASCAR and the IRL before)... etcetera...

dinizintheoven · Post by **dinizintheoven** » 19 Oct 2011, 17:54

the Masked Lapwing wrote:If Sebastian Vettel were to leave Red Bull right now, and drive the last few races for, say, Ferrari, what number would he, Red Bull etc. use?

Taking the precedent of 1985, where John Watson took Niki Lauda's seat for a race and used the number 1 car even though he'd never won a championship (1982, the one that got away, eh, John?): Vettel would have car 6, because it certainly isn't Captain Eyebrows who would be asked to move aside, and whoever took his drive at Red Bull would carry on with 1. But who? Alguersaurus? Daniel Ricciardo? Kimi Räikkonen, in that comeback that everyone except him is clamouring for? Either way, it'd only be for three races, then next season, it'd be Vettel 1, Alonso 2, Red Bull 3/4, McLaren 5/6, and the rest as you'd expect.

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 19 Oct 2011, 18:08

dinizintheoven wrote:
the Masked Lapwing wrote:If Sebastian Vettel were to leave Red Bull right now, and drive the last few races for, say, Ferrari, what number would he, Red Bull etc. use?

Taking the precedent of 1985, where John Watson took Niki Lauda's seat for a race and used the number 1 car even though he'd never won a championship (1982, the one that got away, eh, John?): Vettel would have car 6, because it certainly isn't Captain Eyebrows who would be asked to move aside, and whoever took his drive at Red Bull would carry on with 1. But who? Alguersaurus? Daniel Ricciardo? Kimi Räikkonen, in that comeback that everyone except him is clamouring for? Either way, it'd only be for three races, then next season, it'd be Vettel 1, Alonso 2, Red Bull 3/4, McLaren 5/6, and the rest as you'd expect.

That example is the exception not the precedent. I do remember reading in another magazine somewhere else (but I can't for the life of me remember who it was) that due to current regulations this is no longer possible, and that, therefore, John Watson will forever be the only driver to drive a #1 car without being a world champion.

So I would expect Vettel would slot into car #6 and whoever replaced Vettel would drive car #0 at Red Bull.

Klon · Post by **Klon** » 20 Oct 2011, 08:28

It's pretty simple: the team with Vettel in it, in this example Ferrari, would get numbers 1 and 2 and every team above them in the 2010 constructor's championship would move down, i.e. it would be like this:

* Ferrari
1. Sebastian Vettel
2. Felipe Massa/Fernando Alonso

* Red Bull
3. Sebastien Buemi/Jaime Alguersuari/Daniel Riccardo/...
4. Mark Webber

* McLaren
5. Lewis Hamilton
6. Jenson Button

dinizintheoven · Post by **dinizintheoven** » 20 Oct 2011, 19:20

kostas22 wrote:That example is the exception not the precedent. I do remember reading in another magazine somewhere else (but I can't for the life of me remember who it was)

Might it be on F1's or the FIA's website? I'm not saying go looking for it, the chances are it would be very tedious to do so.

that due to current regulations this is no longer possible, and that, therefore, John Watson will forever be the only driver to drive a #1 car without being a world champion.

Or, maybe, the only one since whenever that rule was brought in... 1974, was it? Either way, I was going to say that's a lot of pages of Forix to comb through to find a time before then when a non-World Champion ran car #1, but I was presented with one in the very first F1 race - it was Fangio, although he would be champion soon enough. The Indy 500s in those days always had a car #1, but looking through those races it seems they only used even numbers, hence (other than Britain 1950) there were no #1 drivwers then. Still I search, and get to Britain 1951... where Farina, the champ, had the #1 car. Through the history books we go, into 1952, past another Indy 500 with a #1 driver, with Fangio out for the entire season, here we are at Silverstone, and in the #1 car is... Graham Whitehead! Safe to say he was never a champion, because he only drive that one race.

I also looked up 1974, and with Lotus the 1973 Constructors' Champions, they were given 1 and 2, so Ronnie Peterson drove the #1 car for the entire season, having been close to a drivers' title in two previous years, but no cigar.

So, how about "John Watson is and (possibly) forever will be the only driver to have driven in the #1 car without winning a World Championship... from 1975 onwards."

So I would expect Vettel would slot into car #6 and whoever replaced Vettel would drive car #0 at Red Bull.

Or, with a possible alternative... the #31 car that is hypothetically used in testing and is sometimes seen when RB are doing public demonstrations in a cannibalised RB5?

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 20 Oct 2011, 19:48

Phoenix wrote:
redbulljack14 wrote:
JeremyMcClean wrote:
I believe Korea was the first race I can recall in a long time that he didn't lose a position on the first corner.

Knowing him, he'd still lose places if he started last.

And the medical car has put a MEGA-MEGA-MOVE on Mark Webber!

Brilliant.

Klon · Post by **Klon** » 03 Nov 2011, 12:21

Do the fact that Narain Karthikeyan had a decent home race and the fact that he outqualified Michael Schumacher and Fernando Alonso once suffice to be in favour of him getting another shot at HRT next year or do I have to look for more? :lol:

Cynon · Post by **Cynon** » 03 Nov 2011, 23:06

Klon wrote:Do the fact that Narain Karthikeyan had a decent home race and the fact that he outqualified Michael Schumacher and Fernando Alonso once suffice to be in favour of him getting another shot at HRT next year or do I have to look for more?

Karthikeyan has a 4th place to his credit, which is more than what Nico Hulkenberg managed...

AndreaModa · Post by **AndreaModa** » 04 Nov 2011, 00:16

I highly doubt HRT will keep both Liuzzi and Karthikeyan, so the question begs, which one will stay, if either of them?

I'd personally like to see Karthikeyan get one final season to prove himself, alongside a rookie, though I'm not sure who HRT are lining up at the moment.

As far as I'm concerned, Liuzzi can go back to being crap at racing V8s down under or whatever else he'd rather spend his time doing instead of being in F1. He clearly isn't that much better than Ricciardo or Karthikeyan so with both of those bringing some money to the table, why keep him?

Post by **tommykl** » 04 Nov 2011, 06:45

I just found out that I was born at the same hospital where Archie Scott Brown died

fjackdaw · Post by **fjackdaw** » 06 Nov 2011, 11:58

If Kimi rejoins, will that be the first time that every world champion from the previous decade - Schumi, Alonso, Hamilton, Raikkonen, Button - are on the grid at the same time? Or, to put it another way, 12 years' worth of world champions? Or, to put it another way, the preceding six?

Aerospeed · Post by **Aerospeed** » 06 Nov 2011, 14:16

fjackdaw wrote:If Kimi rejoins, will that be the first time that every world champion from the previous decade - Schumi, Alonso, Hamilton, Raikkonen, Button - are on the grid at the same time? Or, to put it another way, 12 years' worth of world champions? Or, to put it another way, the preceding six?

Oh my! Never quite noticed that before :lol:

Shadaza · Post by **Shadaza** » 06 Nov 2011, 16:27

Chuck Rosberg out and stick Hakkinen in the Merc (team mates with Schumacher!) and I am sure if we put some wheels on a skip, we can lure Villeneuve back in too!

Also worth Pondering, is my Google spell checker, Schumacher, Senna and Raikkonen are all fine. Prost, Alonso and Mansell are all "miss spellings"

Villeneuve ok, Rosberg not.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 06 Nov 2011, 16:53

Shadaza wrote:Chuck Rosberg out and stick Hakkinen in the Merc (team mates with Schumacher!) and I am sure if we put some wheels on a skip, we can lure Villeneuve back in too!

Also worth Pondering, is my Google spell checker, Schumacher, Senna and Raikkonen are all fine. Prost, Alonso and Mansell are all "miss spellings"

Villeneuve ok, Rosberg not.

So, if we also got Villeneuve and Hakkinen back, we would have every world champion since 1994 back on the grid, barring Damon Hill...

AndreaModa · Post by **AndreaModa** » 06 Nov 2011, 17:09

dr-baker wrote:
Shadaza wrote:Chuck Rosberg out and stick Hakkinen in the Merc (team mates with Schumacher!) and I am sure if we put some wheels on a skip, we can lure Villeneuve back in too!

Also worth Pondering, is my Google spell checker, Schumacher, Senna and Raikkonen are all fine. Prost, Alonso and Mansell are all "miss spellings"

Villeneuve ok, Rosberg not.

So, if we also got Villeneuve and Hakkinen back, we would have every world champion since 1994 back on the grid, barring Damon Hill...

Nothing that a haircut and a bottle of 'Just For Men' can't cure though

Or we could quickly promote Josh Hill to a seat somewhere so at least you could have family links to every WDC since 94?

Post by **tommykl** » 06 Nov 2011, 18:27

AndreaModa wrote:
dr-baker wrote:
Shadaza wrote:Chuck Rosberg out and stick Hakkinen in the Merc (team mates with Schumacher!) and I am sure if we put some wheels on a skip, we can lure Villeneuve back in too!

Also worth Pondering, is my Google spell checker, Schumacher, Senna and Raikkonen are all fine. Prost, Alonso and Mansell are all "miss spellings"

Villeneuve ok, Rosberg not.

So, if we also got Villeneuve and Hakkinen back, we would have every world champion since 1994 back on the grid, barring Damon Hill...

Nothing that a haircut and a bottle of 'Just For Men' can't cure though

Or we could quickly promote Josh Hill to a seat somewhere so at least you could have family links to every WDC since 94?

Add Nicolas Prost, Leo Mansell, Mathias Lauda and bring back Nelson Piquet, Jr. Links to every champion since 1981. Instant win.

Klon · Post by **Klon** » 06 Nov 2011, 18:38

tommykl wrote:Leo Mansell

Why would you make it so complicated? Just have Nigel Mansell have his glorious comeback. Rather add Christian Jones and Marco Andretti. Freddie Hunt just has to deny his retirement two years ago, enter F1, and we go back to having a connection to every champion from 1975 onwards.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 06 Nov 2011, 18:38

tommykl wrote:
AndreaModa wrote:
dr-baker wrote:So, if we also got Villeneuve and Hakkinen back, we would have every world champion since 1994 back on the grid, barring Damon Hill...

Nothing that a haircut and a bottle of 'Just For Men' can't cure though

Or we could quickly promote Josh Hill to a seat somewhere so at least you could have family links to every WDC since 94?

Add Nicolas Prost, Leo Mansell, Mathias Lauda and bring back Nelson Piquet, Jr. Links to every champion since 1981. Instant win.

30+ years of F1 champions!!! I think I am slightly older than average age on this forum, and not even I am 30 years old quite yet...

Cynon · Post by **Cynon** » 06 Nov 2011, 18:39

Klon wrote:
tommykl wrote:Leo Mansell

Why would you make it so complicated? Just have Nigel Mansell have his glorious comeback. Rather add Christian Jones and Marco Andretti. Freddie Hunt just has to deny his retirement two years ago, enter F1, and we go back to having a connection to every champion from 1975 onwards.

Tomas Scheckter?

Klon · Post by **Klon** » 06 Nov 2011, 18:40

Cynon wrote:
Klon wrote:
tommykl wrote:Leo Mansell

Why would you make it so complicated? Just have Nigel Mansell have his glorious comeback. Rather add Christian Jones and Marco Andretti. Freddie Hunt just has to deny his retirement two years ago, enter F1, and we go back to having a connection to every champion from 1975 onwards.

Tomas Scheckter?

Yeah, that was so obvious I forgot about actually writing his name down.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 06 Nov 2011, 18:41

And Josh Hill would also be providing a link to the 1962 and 1968 champion...

EDIT: This is starting to sound like another Perry McCarthy Memorial Forum championship possibility, with people entering only drivers who are related to F1 champions/rejects/etc.

Post by **tommykl** » 06 Nov 2011, 19:03

Christian Fittipaldi and Geoff Brabham. Heck, bring Paul Stewart and Juan Manuel Fangio II back out of retirement

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 06 Nov 2011, 20:52

Sooooo, at this rate, might it not be easier to just name which champions we could NOT link back to?

Cynon · Post by **Cynon** » 06 Nov 2011, 20:59

dr-baker wrote:Sooooo, at this rate, might it not be easier to just name which champions we could NOT link back to?

We could just name all the tracks after the champions we can't find living relatives for.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 07 Nov 2011, 05:03

Why can't the Australian GP be the season ending race, when there's usually a good chance of a mid-late afternoon thunderstorm? :lol:

Shizuka · Post by **Shizuka** » 07 Nov 2011, 06:35

Wizzie wrote:Why can't the Australian GP be the season ending race, when there's usually a good chance of a mid-late afternoon thunderstorm?

Because they don't want us to have attrition to watch...

the Masked Lapwing · Post by **the Masked Lapwing** » 07 Nov 2011, 06:40

Wizzie wrote:Why can't the Australian GP be the season ending race, when there's usually a good chance of a mid-late afternoon thunderstorm?

Eastern Creek, early December, 3:00 in the afternoon. That'll stir things up :lol:

Or even better, Homebush, where it only rains on half the track at once :roll:

madmark1974 · Post by **madmark1974** » 28 Nov 2011, 10:29

Lewis Hamilton has won at least 2 races every season he has been in F1 (and, going by Wikipedia, has won a race in some category or another every season since 2002).

Can anyone think of any other driver who has won a race every season they've been in the sport? I can't think of any. I guess you may have to go back to the 1950s or 1960s ...

Of course, in the coming years he may go on to lose this accomplishment, but for now he's pretty unique in having come in at the top and been able to stay there ...

FullMetalJack · Post by **FullMetalJack** » 28 Nov 2011, 12:02

madmark1974 wrote:Lewis Hamilton has won at least 2 races every season he has been in F1 (and, going by Wikipedia, has won a race in some category or another every season since 2002).

Can anyone think of any other driver who has won a race every season they've been in the sport? I can't think of any. I guess you may have to go back to the 1950s or 1960s ...

Of course, in the coming years he may go on to lose this accomplishment, but for now he's pretty unique in having come in at the top and been able to stay there ...

Vettel's won races in every full season of f1 he's raced in

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 28 Nov 2011, 12:02

madmark1974 wrote:Lewis Hamilton has won at least 2 races every season he has been in F1 (and, going by Wikipedia, has won a race in some category or another every season since 2002).

Can anyone think of any other driver who has won a race every season they've been in the sport? I can't think of any. I guess you may have to go back to the 1950s or 1960s ...

Of course, in the coming years he may go on to lose this accomplishment, but for now he's pretty unique in having come in at the top and been able to stay there ...

He had a pretty shambolic year, but he also won 3 times in good fashion. We all know by now that the Ex-Mr. Pussycat Doll is a bit on the unstable side, but nobody is perfect and he still is one of the fastest drivers out there. The moment his fans and British press stop picking on his personal life and putting stupidly high standards with idiotic comparisons (with Ayrton Senna, for instance), he may then blossom on that and win the championship a few more times. Shame that this will never happen (the part of stopping his personal life scrutiny). He may yet learn to live with it or do like Jenson Button, who never truly matched his potential until he was left alone when Hamilton arrived...

madmark1974 · Post by **madmark1974** » 28 Nov 2011, 12:26

redbulljack14 wrote:
madmark1974 wrote:Lewis Hamilton has won at least 2 races every season he has been in F1 (and, going by Wikipedia, has won a race in some category or another every season since 2002).

Can anyone think of any other driver who has won a race every season they've been in the sport? I can't think of any. I guess you may have to go back to the 1950s or 1960s ...

Of course, in the coming years he may go on to lose this accomplishment, but for now he's pretty unique in having come in at the top and been able to stay there ...

Vettel's won races in every full season of f1 he's raced in

Yes, every FULL season ...

Ferrim · Post by **Ferrim** » 28 Nov 2011, 13:06

Michael Schumacher had a perfect record, to me at least (I can't count '91), until he decided to come back. Vettel has as well. Would Hamilton have won any race with the 2006 McLaren? Remember he was rumoured to take over De la Rosa's seat for the final few races, after the GP2 season was over.

Also, you're unlikely to win races if you start your F1 career at the wheel of a Minardi (hi Alonso, hi Webber).

Post by **tommykl** » 28 Nov 2011, 16:51

Fangio won a race every season except for 1958.

shinji · Post by **shinji** » 28 Nov 2011, 21:58

DanielPT wrote:The moment his fans and British press stop picking on his personal life and putting stupidly high standards with idiotic comparisons (with Ayrton Senna, for instance), he may then blossom on that and win the championship a few more times.

In fairness now, I'd be the last to defend the British gutter press but he brings those comparisons on himself. Seeing him in an interview there the other day saying that in Brazil he feels really close to Senna - while Senna's nephew, as well as his protege, race alongside him. When the only thing linking Hamilton with him is driving for McLaren and having a yellow helmet.

And his personal life - how have all the other British drivers managed to get by? Nobody forced him to go out and have a public break-up with a pop singer.

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 29 Nov 2011, 11:34

shinji wrote:
DanielPT wrote:The moment his fans and British press stop picking on his personal life and putting stupidly high standards with idiotic comparisons (with Ayrton Senna, for instance), he may then blossom on that and win the championship a few more times.

In fairness now, I'd be the last to defend the British gutter press but he brings those comparisons on himself. Seeing him in an interview there the other day saying that in Brazil he feels really close to Senna - while Senna's nephew, as well as his protege, race alongside him. When the only thing linking Hamilton with him is driving for McLaren and having a yellow helmet.

And his personal life - how have all the other British drivers managed to get by? Nobody forced him to go out and have a public break-up with a pop singer.

He did not start that comparisons though. Sure, he came with an yellow helmet, but he was a fan of Senna and wanted to honour his hero. I can understand that. When he entered in F1 he got huge attention due to being tipped as the next big thing and soon enough (after his first win at Canada, I think) British press started immediately to make those comparisons because it was easy enough. The lad was his fan. Yes, I do think Hamilton is a bit weak, mind related/meaning vulnerable to the power of suggestion, and I believe that, with so much furore being made by the press, he started to believe he could indeed emulate Senna and be like him. A further point to his relative mind weakness is that when things go his way, he can manage all right, but if not, this year happens. In essence it is due to this characteristic the reason why he feels close to Senna and why he says it. Looking at some cases, specially from the music world, where, for instance, this year a famous Portuguese young actor and singer died, some of his fans (girls and dudes but definitely more girls) came out to the hospital where he ended up dying and some of them were saying that they lost a great person, someone who made really important stuff in his life, a friend and their love, despite not knowing him personally and only seeing him on TV or magazines. When you idolise a public figure it becomes way too easy to follow his/her life and believe that you are close to him just because you know his life by heart.

How the other British drivers managed to do that? Ok, lets see, Mansell's time was when British gutter press was soft and not the monster they are today and sport was not that important. Hill and Herbert the same (the latter was slower so not deemed worthy). Coulthard was a Scotsman and was not that fast so he too was not deemed worthy. Then came Button... Now I remember Button having troubles with press and to match the huge expectations that suddenly fell in his shoulders. I remember his whole life was seen with magnifying glass. Then people turned on him after Honda and was finally replaced by Hamilton as the British press F1 darling. He became the unworthy champion... He goes on just fine now since his team-mate grabs all the headlines. And I disagree that Hamilton had a public break-up. He broke-up in private, but sure enough speculation was already at rife with people selling bits of info here and there and it became known a bit later. He was forced to publicly assume it otherwise bad headlines would keep cropping up. It his hard to do something private when paparazzi camp outside your place...

James1978 · Post by **James1978** » 29 Nov 2011, 12:32

dr-baker wrote:And Josh Hill would also be providing a link to the 1962 and 1968 champion...

EDIT: This is starting to sound like another Perry McCarthy Memorial Forum championship possibility, with people entering only drivers who are related to F1 champions/rejects/etc.

That's given me another idea of another alternative championship - ban everyone who's had other relations in F1 (but not motorsport in general as that would be way too difficult to do). Which means the mid 90s will be especially good with no Schumacher, Hill or Villeneuve, and the late 80s with no Piquet or Senna.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 29 Nov 2011, 14:05

James1978 wrote:
dr-baker wrote:And Josh Hill would also be providing a link to the 1962 and 1968 champion...

EDIT: This is starting to sound like another Perry McCarthy Memorial Forum championship possibility, with people entering only drivers who are related to F1 champions/rejects/etc.

That's given me another idea of another alternative championship - ban everyone who's had other relations in F1 (but not motorsport in general as that would be way too difficult to do). Which means the mid 90s will be especially good with no Schumacher, Hill or Villeneuve, and the late 80s with no Piquet or Senna.

And no Hill or Stewart in the '60s or '70s!