Grand Prix Rejects

The thing about Ferrari is that they don't need a better driver in the 2nd car to win the constructors' title, they need a better car.

http://www.spiegel.de/sport/formel1/formel-1-in-monza-raeikkoenen-vor-rueckkehr-zu-ferrari-a-921091.html

Basically what this article says is that Shell will pay the bill for Raikkonen at a massive 20 million rate and Montezuma is happy with it, because he also wants to show ALO who is boss. BUT although Spiegel is a reputable newspaper I have no idea how credible their f1 coverage is. But this would give the strongest Ferrari line-up (at least on paper) since well, forever really. Probably the most expensive as well...

Rusujuur wrote:http://www.spiegel.de/sport/formel1/formel-1-in-monza-raeikkoenen-vor-rueckkehr-zu-ferrari-a-921091.html

Basically what this article says is that Shell will pay the bill for Raikkonen at a massive 20 million rate and Montezuma is happy with it, because he also wants to show ALO who is boss. BUT although Spiegel is a reputable newspaper I have no idea how credible their f1 coverage is. But this would give the strongest Ferrari line-up (at least on paper) since well, forever really. Probably the most expensive as well...

It does seem that an increasing number of people in the press believe that a deal between Kimi and Ferrari has been sealed or is on the point of being sealed, even if Ferrari are saying that they are in no rush to finalise their driver line up for 2014. There are similar reports in the Italian media that the deal has been signed and is due to be announced in the next few days too, so they are definitely not the only paper that seems convinced by the rumours. http://www.gazzetta.it/Sport-Motori/For ... 9181.shtml

I agree, though, that if the rumours are true it would give Ferrari one of their strongest line ups in years - it'd probably be one of the strongest line ups on the grid altogether. I can see the logic from Ferrari's point of view - Mercedes are pressurising them thanks to the consistency of their drivers and Vettel's consistency has kept both him and Red Bull ahead of them too. However, watka is right to also point out that the drivers alone can't win races and titles for Ferrari if the team cannot deliver on its end of the bargain, and the rumours of a weak engine for 2014 and several years of problems with their aero team shows that there is room for improvement on their side too.

mario wrote:

Rusujuur wrote:http://www.spiegel.de/sport/formel1/formel-1-in-monza-raeikkoenen-vor-rueckkehr-zu-ferrari-a-921091.html

Basically what this article says is that Shell will pay the bill for Raikkonen at a massive 20 million rate and Montezuma is happy with it, because he also wants to show ALO who is boss. BUT although Spiegel is a reputable newspaper I have no idea how credible their f1 coverage is. But this would give the strongest Ferrari line-up (at least on paper) since well, forever really. Probably the most expensive as well...

It does seem that an increasing number of people in the press believe that a deal between Kimi and Ferrari has been sealed or is on the point of being sealed, even if Ferrari are saying that they are in no rush to finalise their driver line up for 2014. There are similar reports in the Italian media that the deal has been signed and is due to be announced in the next few days too, so they are definitely not the only paper that seems convinced by the rumours. http://www.gazzetta.it/Sport-Motori/For ... 9181.shtml

I agree, though, that if the rumours are true it would give Ferrari one of their strongest line ups in years - it'd probably be one of the strongest line ups on the grid altogether. I can see the logic from Ferrari's point of view - Mercedes are pressurising them thanks to the consistency of their drivers and Vettel's consistency has kept both him and Red Bull ahead of them too. However, watka is right to also point out that the drivers alone can't win races and titles for Ferrari if the team cannot deliver on its end of the bargain, and the rumours of a weak engine for 2014 and several years of problems with their aero team shows that there is room for improvement on their side too.

Do you know if they're still experiencing calibration problems with their wind tunnel? If they are, and if they're having to use Toyota's wind tunnel to develop the 2014 car, then that doesn't exactly bode well for next year.

I really, really hope Raikkonen doesn't go to Ferrari and Hulkenberg gets the seat. I can't help wondering if they're doing it to do a bit of a power play on Alonso to remind him that no-one is bigger than the team. Alonso has made it known that he doesn't particularly want him here.

The Hulk could be an excellent long term prospect for Ferrari, and they missed out on that with Perez. Wouldn't Alonso and Raikkonen be the oldest line-up on the grid by some distance?

LellaLombardi wrote:I really, really hope Raikkonen doesn't go to Ferrari and Hulkenberg gets the seat. I can't help wondering if they're doing it to do a bit of a power play on Alonso to remind him that no-one is bigger than the team. Alonso has made it known that he doesn't particularly want him here.

The Hulk could be an excellent long term prospect for Ferrari, and they missed out on that with Perez. Wouldn't Alonso and Raikkonen be the oldest line-up on the grid by some distance?

As much as that's true, and I've been supremely impressed with the Hulk's performances for awhile now, moving Kimi to Ferrari is extremely understandable - who wouldn't want two of the three best drivers on the grid in their team? and anyone who says Vettel is the third should be taken outside and shot The only issue would be team orders, but then again I'm sure they're intelligent and mature enough to move over if one is out of the championship running towards the end of a season, whereas Massa is basically useless because he's almost never near enough to the front to do any good.

LellaLombardi wrote:I really, really hope Raikkonen doesn't go to Ferrari and Hulkenberg gets the seat. I can't help wondering if they're doing it to do a bit of a power play on Alonso to remind him that no-one is bigger than the team. Alonso has made it known that he doesn't particularly want him here.

The Hulk could be an excellent long term prospect for Ferrari, and they missed out on that with Perez. Wouldn't Alonso and Raikkonen be the oldest line-up on the grid by some distance?

I agree- I could see The Hulk and Bianchi being the new leading lights for Ferrari for when Alonso retires

kevinbotz wrote:

mario wrote:

Rusujuur wrote:http://www.spiegel.de/sport/formel1/formel-1-in-monza-raeikkoenen-vor-rueckkehr-zu-ferrari-a-921091.html

Basically what this article says is that Shell will pay the bill for Raikkonen at a massive 20 million rate and Montezuma is happy with it, because he also wants to show ALO who is boss. BUT although Spiegel is a reputable newspaper I have no idea how credible their f1 coverage is. But this would give the strongest Ferrari line-up (at least on paper) since well, forever really. Probably the most expensive as well...

It does seem that an increasing number of people in the press believe that a deal between Kimi and Ferrari has been sealed or is on the point of being sealed, even if Ferrari are saying that they are in no rush to finalise their driver line up for 2014. There are similar reports in the Italian media that the deal has been signed and is due to be announced in the next few days too, so they are definitely not the only paper that seems convinced by the rumours. http://www.gazzetta.it/Sport-Motori/For ... 9181.shtml

I agree, though, that if the rumours are true it would give Ferrari one of their strongest line ups in years - it'd probably be one of the strongest line ups on the grid altogether. I can see the logic from Ferrari's point of view - Mercedes are pressurising them thanks to the consistency of their drivers and Vettel's consistency has kept both him and Red Bull ahead of them too. However, watka is right to also point out that the drivers alone can't win races and titles for Ferrari if the team cannot deliver on its end of the bargain, and the rumours of a weak engine for 2014 and several years of problems with their aero team shows that there is room for improvement on their side too.

Do you know if they're still experiencing calibration problems with their wind tunnel? If they are, and if they're having to use Toyota's wind tunnel to develop the 2014 car, then that doesn't exactly bode well for next year.

Understandably Ferrari do not seem to be keen to talk too much about whether those calibration problems are ongoing, though there are a few hints that they are gradually working through them right now (thanks in part to being able to use Sauber's wind tunnel too).

I think that the way it works right now is that Allison is leading up the 2014 design team now and is making use of Sauber's facilities (with Rory Byrne also playing a small role as an external consultant), whilst Pat Fry continues working with the 2013 team and utilises the TMG wind tunnel. As for Ferrari's own facilities, I believe that those are out of action until 2014 due to refurbishment work (which also seems to explain why their calibration issues have been more sever than normal this year).

rachel1990 wrote:

LellaLombardi wrote:I really, really hope Raikkonen doesn't go to Ferrari and Hulkenberg gets the seat. I can't help wondering if they're doing it to do a bit of a power play on Alonso to remind him that no-one is bigger than the team. Alonso has made it known that he doesn't particularly want him here.

The Hulk could be an excellent long term prospect for Ferrari, and they missed out on that with Perez. Wouldn't Alonso and Raikkonen be the oldest line-up on the grid by some distance?

I agree- I could see The Hulk and Bianchi being the new leading lights for Ferrari for when Alonso retires

If Ferrari went for a Kimi-Alonso line up, it would indeed be the oldest pairing in the field - Alonso is 32 and Kimi turns 34 later this year, whilst Massa, also 32 years old, is another drivers towards the older end of the spectrum. The next oldest pairing, I believe, would be Mercedes's line up of Rosberg and Hamilton: those two drivers are both only 28 and are probably only about halfway through their potential careers, so they still offer a lot for the future.

Gary Anderson would also appear to agree with your assessment of Hulkenberg - his comment in his latest column for the BBC is that Kimi may help Ferrari out in the short term but Hulkenberg would appear to have the greater long term potential. McLaren seem to have gone for such an approach with Perez - Button provides the short to medium term stability and team leadership whilst McLaren invest in Perez and gradually prepare him for a longer term role within the team. Perhaps Ferrari might do well to consider doing the same thing themselves?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/24024226

SgtPepper wrote: who wouldn't want two of the three best drivers on the grid in their team? and anyone who says Vettel is the third should be taken outside and shot

I assume the third, therefore, in your humble opinion, is Mr Hamilton of Stevenage?

dr-baker wrote:

SgtPepper wrote: who wouldn't want two of the three best drivers on the grid in their team? and anyone who says Vettel is the third should be taken outside and shot

I assume the third, therefore, in your humble opinion, is Mr Hamilton of Stevenage?

Of course, although I'm finding his public emotional outbursts increasingly cringe-inducing.

mario wrote:

rachel1990 wrote:

LellaLombardi wrote:I really, really hope Raikkonen doesn't go to Ferrari and Hulkenberg gets the seat. I can't help wondering if they're doing it to do a bit of a power play on Alonso to remind him that no-one is bigger than the team. Alonso has made it known that he doesn't particularly want him here.

The Hulk could be an excellent long term prospect for Ferrari, and they missed out on that with Perez. Wouldn't Alonso and Raikkonen be the oldest line-up on the grid by some distance?

I agree- I could see The Hulk and Bianchi being the new leading lights for Ferrari for when Alonso retires

If Ferrari went for a Kimi-Alonso line up, it would indeed be the oldest pairing in the field - Alonso is 32 and Kimi turns 34 later this year, whilst Massa, also 32 years old, is another drivers towards the older end of the spectrum. The next oldest pairing, I believe, would be Mercedes's line up of Rosberg and Hamilton: those two drivers are both only 28 and are probably only about halfway through their potential careers, so they still offer a lot for the future.

Gary Anderson would also appear to agree with your assessment of Hulkenberg - his comment in his latest column for the BBC is that Kimi may help Ferrari out in the short term but Hulkenberg would appear to have the greater long term potential. McLaren seem to have gone for such an approach with Perez - Button provides the short to medium term stability and team leadership whilst McLaren invest in Perez and gradually prepare him for a longer term role within the team. Perhaps Ferrari might do well to consider doing the same thing themselves?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/24024226

How about the Hulk at Lotus for a year or two? Could put in a couple of storming drives, maybe the occasional victory, and we get to watch Kimi vs Alonso in the meantime. At the end of the day, Red Bull should've had the balls not to upset their golden rooster and put Kimi in the second seat, then Hulk would've been free to go to Ferrari, which would've been an absolutely ideal lineup. But then again, Red Bull's entire market strategy is to make F1 as dull as humanely possible.

On a side note, Ted Kravitz hinted that Hulk may actually be without a drive in 2014 as he must make way for Sirotkin (who I know nothing of, but judging by the sentiment here doesn't sound promising). If this is the case, some serious questions are going to have to be asked.

I'm placing Hulkenberg at Lotus for next season. As much as I would've liked to see Hulkenberg in a Ferrari, the Raikkonen deal seems to be more and more likely by the day, which should leave the Lotus seat as the sole remaining competitive vacancy.

On the possibility that Hulkenberg does find himself without a seat due to a lack of sponsorship, I just don't see it happening with a driver as rated highly as he is. If he does leave F1 at the end of this year, however, I'm inclined to agree with SgtPepper that significant opprobrium will be levied against FOM and the current cost structure. That Sirotkin can find himself a respectable seat riding upon a wave of Russian cash at the expense of drivers like Frijns is bad enough; that a driver of Hulkenberg's pedigree and potential should be forced out of F1 due to monetary issues is completely unacceptable.

Ataxia wrote:Quite possibly the worst piece of Formula 1 journalism ever?

Christ, they've really jumped the gun, haven't they?

Ataxia wrote:Quite possibly the worst piece of Formula 1 journalism ever?

Yuck, just yuck. So badly written.

Ataxia wrote:Quite possibly the worst piece of Formula 1 journalism ever?

Not really.

Ataxia wrote:Quite possibly the worst piece of Formula 1 journalism ever?

It's the 'Mirror'. What more did you expect?

Ataxia wrote:Quite possibly the worst piece of Formula 1 journalism ever?

I stopped reading at „Raikonnen”.

I've just read in the Daily Express (which was delivered to my house by mistake!) that they're saying Raikkonen and Alonso actually swap seats, and Alonso returns to Team Enstone for the third time, as relations have gone between him and Ferrari. Not sure I believe it mind you but thought I'd put it out there!

Indeed here's a link to the story!

http://www.express.co.uk/sport/f1-autos ... n-the-move

SgtPepper wrote:How about the Hulk at Lotus for a year or two? Could put in a couple of storming drives, maybe the occasional victory, and we get to watch Kimi vs Alonso in the meantime. At the end of the day, Red Bull should've had the balls not to upset their golden rooster and put Kimi in the second seat, then Hulk would've been free to go to Ferrari, which would've been an absolutely ideal lineup. But then again, Red Bull's entire market strategy is to make F1 as dull as humanely possible.

On a side note, Ted Kravitz hinted that Hulk may actually be without a drive in 2014 as he must make way for Sirotkin (who I know nothing of, but judging by the sentiment here doesn't sound promising). If this is the case, some serious questions are going to have to be asked.

There are a few hints that it wasn't necessarily just that Red Bull didn't want to upset Vettel, but that Kimi objected to some of the terms of the contract that Red Bull offered him (possibly related to simulator work and corporate events) - things do not seem to have been entirely all one way in that instance.

As it is, if the deal between Kimi and Ferrari is, as many seem to think, set in stone, you would assume that Hulkenberg would probably be aiming for Lotus. It is unlikely that they would promote one of their reserve drivers to take Kimi's place, and Hulkenberg would seem to fit the bill for what they want (a reasonably strong and experienced driver).

James1978 wrote:I've just read in the Daily Express (which was delivered to my house by mistake!) that they're saying Raikkonen and Alonso actually swap seats, and Alonso returns to Team Enstone for the third time, as relations have gone between him and Ferrari. Not sure I believe it mind you but thought I'd put it out there!

It's a pretty peculiar suggestion, as other sources, such as the BBC, seem to believe that it'll be a Kimi-Alonso line up at Ferrari and Hulkenberg over at Lotus instead. Alonso may have been a bit harsher in the press recently (which Gary Anderson has suggested may be a way for Alonso to shame Ferrari into action), but I wouldn't have thought that relations had deteriorated to that point quite yet.

Kimi and Fernando together at Ferrari, who'd a thunk it?

I feel like McLaren back in April, Im turning all my focus onto next season

I've had a little bit of inside info from source close to the factory, apparently the deal with Kimi is done and that there is some truth in the Express story in that Alonso is threatening to return to team Enstone. Could we be about to see a Kimi/Hulk combo. Please let it be true.

The same source says Massa is going to Sauber.

LellaLombardi wrote:I've had a little bit of inside info from source close to the factory, apparently the deal with Kimi is done and that there is some truth in the Express story in that Alonso is threatening to return to team Enstone. Could we be about to see a Kimi/Hulk combo. Please let it be true.

LellaLombardi wrote:The same source says Massa is going to Sauber.

I personally doubt it. Unless Massa is going to bring money or drive for free, I'm unsure whether Sauber can afford to pay him. And I think Felipe Massa would rather retire than go to Sauber and suffer the ignominy of being dropped for Sirotkin a year later. He's got a decent pile of money, and he's involved in karting and charitable projects in Brazil, so he won't be without anything to do. And I don't think the Alonso-Ferrari relationship is so bad he would leave for Enstone.

Backmarker wrote:

LellaLombardi wrote:I've had a little bit of inside info from source close to the factory, apparently the deal with Kimi is done and that there is some truth in the Express story in that Alonso is threatening to return to team Enstone. Could we be about to see a Kimi/Hulk combo. Please let it be true.

LellaLombardi wrote:The same source says Massa is going to Sauber.

I personally doubt it. Unless Massa is going to bring money or drive for free, I'm unsure whether Sauber can afford to pay him. And I think Felipe Massa would rather retire than go to Sauber and suffer the ignominy of being dropped for Sirotkin a year later. He's got a decent pile of money, and he's involved in karting and charitable projects in Brazil, so he won't be without anything to do. And I don't think the Alonso-Ferrari relationship is so bad he would leave for Enstone.

What about a drive at Lotus? I'm more interested in who ends up at Team Enstone, frankly.

Could end up:

Ferrari - Kimi/Hulk
Lotus - Alonso/Grosjean
Sauber - Massa/Sirotkin or Gutierrez

I really hope for Sauber's sake, they're not forced to have Gutierrez and Sirotkin - one of them paired with an experienced driver like Massa might work though.

James1978 wrote:Could end up:

Ferrari - Kimi/Hulk
Lotus - Alonso/Grosjean
Sauber - Massa/Sirotkin or Gutierrez

I really hope for Sauber's sake, they're not forced to have Gutierrez and Sirotkin - one of them paired with an experienced driver like Massa might work though.

There is perhaps a slim chance that Massa might be pensioned off by Ferrari to Sauber, but I suppose it would depend on whether Sauber felt that the sponsorship income from Gutierrez and Sirotkin combined would add up to more than the value of Massa's experience. A line up with a relatively limited amount of experience would not be ideal for them, but it may be that they are forced into it nevertheless because of financial pressures.

I'm sad and disappointed that Kamui Kobayashi is not being linked with the Ferrari drive - after all, he has spent this year racing Ferraris in GT racing... How quickly he has been forgotten in F1 from just one year ago.

While we are on the subject of the 2014 Ferrari seat i just wonder why is Paul di Resta being considered for the seat?

Freeze-O-Kimi wrote:While we are on the subject of the 2014 Ferrari seat i just wonder why is Paul di Resta being considered for the seat?

Because Di Resta says he wants to leave so the british media has put him in consideration for the seat. Not going to happen

rachel1990 wrote:

Freeze-O-Kimi wrote:While we are on the subject of the 2014 Ferrari seat i just wonder why is Paul di Resta being considered for the seat?

Because Di Resta says he wants to leave so the british media has put him in consideration for the seat. Not going to happen

It always the British media isn't it wanting to hype our people up into something they are not

Freeze-O-Kimi wrote:

rachel1990 wrote:

Freeze-O-Kimi wrote:While we are on the subject of the 2014 Ferrari seat i just wonder why is Paul di Resta being considered for the seat?

Because Di Resta says he wants to leave so the british media has put him in consideration for the seat. Not going to happen

It always the British media isn't it wanting to hype our people up into something they are not

Pretty much. See also James Hunt.

According with Luciano Burti, Massa is out of Ferrari and Kimi is going to replace him. The official announcement is going to be made in Wednesday.

Faustus wrote:Pretty much. See also James Hunt.

Holy buckets, keep it current. Hunt hasnt raced for over three decades

Dj_bereta wrote:According with Luciano Burti, Massa is out of Ferrari and Kimi is going to replace him. The official announcement is going to be made in Wednesday.

If Luciano Burti says so, it's definitely official.

It amuses me that both Vettel and Alonso have publicly made it clear they'd rather not be on the same team as Raikkonnen as it suggests there is a little fear there. Not fear of being beaten and I wouldnt expect fear of his combustible nature (because from the outside he appears anything but) but a certain sense that having Raikkonnen on the team would be bad for them themselves.

apple2009 wrote:

Ataxia wrote:Quite possibly the worst piece of Formula 1 journalism ever?

Not really.

You trusting tabloids?

If Kimi gets the Ferrari seat all I can say are two words: Eddie Jordan

Hulkenberg announced as "Plan B" for Lotus in the case that Raikkonen leaves for Ferrari.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/109799

kevinbotz wrote:Hulkenberg announced as "Plan B" for Lotus in the case that Raikkonen leaves for Ferrari.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/109799

Hulkenberg and Grosjean as line-up would contain bags of speed

Freeze-O-Kimi wrote:

kevinbotz wrote:Hulkenberg announced as "Plan B" for Lotus in the case that Raikkonen leaves for Ferrari.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/109799

Hulkenberg and Grosjean as line-up would contain bags of speed

But who would be team leader?
Grosjean has been based at Enstone since about 2007-8 but is still prone to overdriving.
Nico is consistent but would be new to the team.