Grand Prix Rejects

Vettel officially out of Red Bull, Kvyat in, CONFIRMED.

Kyvat to RB, Vettel to Ferrari, Nando to Macca, Button retiring?

Incredible. What a series of developments! F1 2015 is going to be interesting!

Newey's taking a back seat this season?...will he also depart now?... possibly to Ferrari...... when the music stops.......

Will STR re-sign Vergne after all?

Wow, I did not see that coming! So who will take the vacant seat at STR? Will JEV get another chance? Or will Carlos Sainz or Alex Lynn get a deserved promotion? So many questions!

Can McLaren with the help of Honda get BOTH Vettel and Alonso?? Unlikely to happen but... well, this is F1 after all. Also, there's the chance Mercedes will say goodbye to one of their drivers and are simply waiting for the championship outcome to make an anouncement. Maybe the intra team battle has had more consequences than what's been seen. Now, ask yourselves for a second... If any of the Mercedes drivers leave, why wouldn't Mercedes try to convince a 4 times GERMAN champion to join them? They'll probably never get the chance again, and Mercedes don't give a bathplug about having two German drivers, if it was Hamilton leaving.
The theory I would completely discard is Alonso being left out of F1 because almost the whole grid is lusting a driver like him (except Red Bull, where they seem focused on delivering home drivers a chance), Alonso wants to win at least another WDC and he wouldn't be breaking his contract with Ferrari if he wasn't sure where he'd drive next season, so Alonso probably has it done with either McLaren (most likely) or Mercedes (if my previous theory is right)

Should have promoted Vergne. Way too early for Kvyat to be in a top team, I doubt he will have the same success as Ricciardo at this point.

inb4 Vettel to McLaren

F1's official twitter said Raikkonen and Vettel to Ferrari but quickly deleted it.

Christian Horner's take: http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/horne ... to-ferrari

In the time that Ricciardo was announced to replace Webber in Red Bull, Vergne was in front of the Australian in the points standing and was in front of him in their debut season too (2012). Vergne is ahead of Kvyat in the points standing, (despite the Russian showing to be a very talented driver) and again, he was ignored.

Kvyat will sure make a good work, but Vergne could do better. It's a shame what Red Bull is doing.

Horner got a text after dinner last night from Seb saying "can I see you in my room"

I don't know why that sounds funny. Oh wait I do.

And here I was thinking that no big shake-ups wouldn´t happen on driver line-up this year. Shows what I know.

Will be interesting to see how these moves work out.

eagleash wrote:Will STR re-sign Vergne after all?

After three years and having promoted someone they hired after him to Red Bull before him?

I doubt it - it's more likely that they will take Sainz Jnr.

Frick off Red Bull. You should have putted Vergne in, not Kvyat. Morons.

So I'm waking up at 05:45 in the morning in my uni bedroom, I play some music on my laptop, I load F1's live timing screen still feeling quite sleepy... AND WHAT THE S**T?!?!?!?!?!?!

Oh. My. God. If Newey is leaving Red Bull for good along with Vettel, I think we might be seeing Red Bull's performances seriously decline over the next few years a la Ferrari over the last 10. Good luck to Kvyat, he could well handle the pressure, he's a good lad. But of course the RB11 could be a another troublemaker. Anyway I hope Carlos Sainz gets that much-deserved seat alongside Verstappen at Toro Rosso.

But get this. When Seb was crushing everyone last year, including Suzuka (which he won narrowly and I won't go into detail why even if I know why), NO-ONE would have imagined he would have such a tough year in 2014, failing to even lead a lap until well into the 2nd half of the year and getting beat by his teammate of all people?! I thought 2014 could be even more dominant than '13 for Red Bull. But this year has unfolded in the most unexpected way.

Now that Red Bull seats are confirmed Ron Dennis can take perfect revenge on Alonso, by confirming Button and Magnussen.

This time around I don't think Ferrari will pay big bucks to Raikkonen to take sabbatical.

Nin13 wrote:This time around I don't think Ferrari will pay big bucks to Raikkonen to take sabbatical.

They don't have to - he's performing so poorly that they could fire him. Definite ROTY material.

Would be lol if Ferrari dumps Raikkonen for someone like Bianchi or a Grosjean but Raikkonen will stay.

Samster wrote:Should have promoted Vergne. Way too early for Kvyat to be in a top team, I doubt he will have the same success as Ricciardo at this point.

This. Vergne should have gotten the seat.

W12 wrote:

Samster wrote:Should have promoted Vergne. Way too early for Kvyat to be in a top team, I doubt he will have the same success as Ricciardo at this point.

This. Vergne should have gotten the seat.

And Kubica should've won a World Championship.

It doesn't matter what should have happened, Vergne was never going to replace Vettel in a million years. He only has a drive this year because da Costa bottled it so hard last year that he wound up in F1 driver hell. AKA the DTM.

Vergne hasn't done anything.

Red Bull can afford to take Kvyat, even if he only gets regular points. Ricciardo is strong enough to carry their title ambitions on his own with Kvyat in a support role like Mark Webber.

The question now becomes who Toro Rosso take - Sainz Jnr. has to be the obvious favourite, but I wonder if they wouldn't try to recruit someone like Ocon, or even poach Vandoorne away from McLaren.

Captain Hammer wrote:The question now becomes who Toro Rosso take - Sainz Jnr. has to be the obvious favourite, but I wonder if they wouldn't try to recruit someone like Ocon, or even poach Vandoorne away from McLaren.

After Ricciardo, Kvyat, and now Verstappen, I imagine Red Bull is very confident in their driver academy. I don't see any reason why it won't be a shootout between Carlos Sainz Jr and Alex Lynn, both of whom are leading their respective championships.

Salamander wrote:

Captain Hammer wrote:The question now becomes who Toro Rosso take - Sainz Jnr. has to be the obvious favourite, but I wonder if they wouldn't try to recruit someone like Ocon, or even poach Vandoorne away from McLaren.

After Ricciardo, Kvyat, and now Verstappen, I imagine Red Bull is very confident in their driver academy. I don't see any reason why it won't be a shootout between Carlos Sainz Jr and Alex Lynn, both of whom are leading their respective championships.

If they really thought Sainz was such a big talent, he would have been signed already

This is the silliest silly season I can ever remember

W12 wrote:

Samster wrote:Should have promoted Vergne. Way too early for Kvyat to be in a top team, I doubt he will have the same success as Ricciardo at this point.

This. Vergne should have gotten the seat.

Red Bull have effectively backed themselves into a corner on that front though - by making a snap decision to hire Max and therefore forcing Vergne out of his seat before Vettel had made his mind up, plus the fact that they are not willing to recruit from outside of their own driver program, they have pushed themselves into a scenario where Kvyat is their only option. Now, Kvyat has had a solid rookie season, but being called up to the parent team and now being expected to fight for wins is a big ask, and I'd agree that it's not an ideal situation for the team - however, it is essentially a situation of their own making.

Either way, whilst there had been rumours of a driver signing being announced in Suzuka, it wasn't expected to come from Red Bull given that speculation has been surrounding Alonso and McLaren - as others have said, given Horner's comments about Vettel going to Ferrari, it would appear to suggest that it is only a matter of time before it is announced that Alonso is leaving the team.

Salamander wrote:

Captain Hammer wrote:The question now becomes who Toro Rosso take - Sainz Jnr. has to be the obvious favourite, but I wonder if they wouldn't try to recruit someone like Ocon, or even poach Vandoorne away from McLaren.

After Ricciardo, Kvyat, and now Verstappen, I imagine Red Bull is very confident in their driver academy. I don't see any reason why it won't be a shootout between Carlos Sainz Jr and Alex Lynn, both of whom are leading their respective championships.

I would have thought that the most likely course of action would be for Red Bull to move Sainz Jr up to Toro Rosso and then to move Lynn up from GP3 into Sainz Jr's position at DAMS, where he could be trained up as a potential replacement if either Max or Sainz Jr failed to meet expectations. That said, Sainz Jr was passed over in favour of Kvyat last year, so it is possible that Lynn might get called up - or they could opt to surprise us completely and hire Gasly instead...

I think Gasly and Lynn need another year.

RonDenisDeletraz wrote:If they really thought Sainz was such a big talent, he would have been signed already

Who says they don't? Red Bull just think Verstappen is a bigger talent. And they only had the one seat available until this weekend.

mario wrote:I would have thought that the most likely course of action would be for Red Bull to move Sainz Jr up to Toro Rosso and then to move Lynn up from GP3 into Sainz Jr's position at DAMS, where he could be trained up as a potential replacement if either Max or Sainz Jr failed to meet expectations. That said, Sainz Jr was passed over in favour of Kvyat last year, so it is possible that Lynn might get called up - or they could opt to surprise us completely and hire Gasly instead...

Yes, but as Bottas and Kvyat have proved, GP3 to F1 is a feasible jump. And Lynn has been more dominant so far this year than any previous GP3 champion.

But the GP3 field is hardly amazing.

Captain Hammer wrote:But the GP3 field is hardly amazing.

Was it amazing in 2011 or 2013? Bottas beat James Calado to the title, and Calado looks like he'll never get a real shot at F1. Kvyat beat Regalia and Daly, the former being light years from F1 at the moment, and the latter is targeting an IndyCar drive next year.

I still think Sainz Jr is nothing special. He was thrashed by Kvyat in GP3 and his F3 results were not remarkable either

At this point, surely it begins to beg the question of what the point of GP2 even is anymore? Most recent F1 graduates have come out of FR3.5 or GP3. Isn't GP2 becoming more of an obstruction to the career ladder than anything else?

Alonso to McLaren doesnt seem sensible to me. Even if the team say all is forgiven, I doubt anyone present in 2007 will really have let it go...

Thing is, theres not much room elsewhere. Mercedes is very much closed, The team formerly known as Toleman have no money and Force India would be a big gamble for both driver (good car?) and team (value for money). McLaren seems to stand out more as the "least worst option" in much the same way it did for Mansell in 1995.

If I had to choose, a sneaky part of me could see Alonso replacing Massa at Williams. You heard it here first.

RonDenisDeletraz wrote:I still think Sainz Jr is nothing special. He was thrashed by Kvyat in GP3 and his F3 results were not remarkable either

I, too, wondered why Red Bull were keeping him right until this year. Maybe Red Bull just knew Sainz jr's style wasn't suited to the small cars and had the patience for him for that reason, because he is being convincing now. Wouldn't be a first.

Alonso has surely put himself in bad spot by not announcing his plans earlier. What we know is that Mercedes, Red Bull have confirmed their lineup so those spots are full.

That leaves him option of joining Mclaren or staying at Ferrari. As I said earlier Ferrari wanted to keep Alonso and Raikkonen. Ferrari signing Vettel surely means that Alonso was not interested in continuing with Ferrari. Also I don't think Ferrari will pay Raikkonen big bucks again to take sabattical.

So his only option in Mclaren.

But you know which other team has been competitive and likely to be next year with Mercedes engine? Williams. But they have confirmed their lineup too. Unless someone pays huge money to Massa or Bottas I don't see that either.

Someone at Mclaren will have a heart break. Mostly looks like Button. Magnussen has done good this year. And if Alonso is there you don't need another experienced driver.

Other rumour in paddock is that Alonso might go sabbatical next year. Now that he is in so compromised position.

Did NOT see them promoting Kvyat. That's really put a spanner in the works - I also think the RB seat would have been a way for one of the Mercedes drivers to leave if their relationship goes really pear-shaped. It probably means Button is forced to retire too which I think is a complete injustice - where could he go if he's forced out of McLaren. Force India? Lotus?

Also is the last driver to be employed by Red Bull from externally Webber from Williams in 2007?

Nin13 wrote:Alonso has surely put himself in bad spot by not announcing his plans earlier. What we know is that Mercedes, Red Bull have confirmed their lineup so those spots are full.

That leaves him option of joining Mclaren or staying at Ferrari. As I said earlier Ferrari wanted to keep Alonso and Raikkonen. Ferrari signing Vettel surely means that Alonso was not interested in continuing with Ferrari. Also I don't think Ferrari will pay Raikkonen big bucks again to take sabattical.

So his only option in Mclaren.

But you know which other team has been competitive and likely to be next year with Mercedes engine? Williams. But they have confirmed their lineup too. Unless someone pays huge money to Massa or Bottas I don't see that either.

Someone at Mclaren will have a heart break. Mostly looks like Button. Magnussen has done good this year. And if Alonso is there you don't need another experienced driver.

Massa and Bottas are set for Wiliams. We heard that Force India are the same. Lotus will have Maldonado, so if Alonso goes to McLaren. The biggest seat it is safe to say is that lone seat at Lotus between Grosjean, Vergne or some other driver.

So we are looking at

One seat at Lotus
One seat at STR
Two Seats at Caterham, Sauber and Marussia.

giraurd wrote:

RonDenisDeletraz wrote:I still think Sainz Jr is nothing special. He was thrashed by Kvyat in GP3 and his F3 results were not remarkable either

I, too, wondered why Red Bull were keeping him right until this year. Maybe Red Bull just knew Sainz jr's style wasn't suited to the small cars and had the patience for him for that reason, because he is being convincing now. Wouldn't be a first.

Part of the reason why he seems to have been kept on is the quality of his feedback - when he and da Costa were given a chance to test for Red Bull in a Young Driver test, the engineers were reportedly much more impressed with Sainz Jr's feedback than da Costa's feedback, even though the latter was the more experienced driver (and it seems that poor quality feedback and issues with setting up a car were reasons why Red Bull eventually moved away from da Costa).

That said, I would agree with the assessment that his results in junior series would not appear to be particularly inspiring - if you look at some drivers in rival Young Driver programs, such as Marciello and Wehrlein, both of those drivers delivered more consistent and impressive results in junior series. As you say, against Kvyat his record in GP3 was not exactly stellar either (in fact, it says a lot when Alexander Sims, a driver who only competed in half a season, could beat Sainz Jr. in the standings). Lynn has been coming up through the ranks at a pretty steady pace, and he does in principle stand a good chance given that he has performed fairly consistently - as Salamander says, the jump from GP3 to F1 is feasible, but we will see whether Red Bull are prepared to push him into STR or instead move him up a rank into FR3.5.

Waris wrote:At this point, surely it begins to beg the question of what the point of GP2 even is anymore? Most recent F1 graduates have come out of FR3.5 or GP3. Isn't GP2 becoming more of an obstruction to the career ladder than anything else?

Formula Renault has been the preferred series for Red Bull's young drivers for a number of years now, partially because the cost of competing in that series is much lower than GP2. It does seem that the cost inflation in GP2, coupled with complaints about declining driver standards (due to the ability to pay being given greater credence than the ability to drive), does seem to be driving teams towards Formula Renault as their preferred route.
To a certain extent, there is also a certain sense of the fragmentation of junior series causing issues too - with Formula Renault, there is a clearly defined route from the 1.6 litre series to the 2.0 litre cars and eventually the 3.5 litre cars. With GP2, the problem is that the disorder amongst the national Formula 3 series, which tended to act as feeder series to GP2; as for GP3, the fact that the cars are now substantially more powerful than in the past has reduced the performance differential between GP3 and GP2, not to mention between GP3 and F1, quite a bit, making it more feasible for GP3 to act as a direct feeder series to F1 than in the past.

Waris wrote:At this point, surely it begins to beg the question of what the point of GP2 even is anymore? Most recent F1 graduates have come out of FR3.5 or GP3. Isn't GP2 becoming more of an obstruction to the career ladder than anything else?

It's only been this way the last couple of years because the quality of the GP2 field has been appalling the last 2 years, which itself is partially down to the inflation of costs, and partially down to the fact that the car is very difficult to setup, and inherently favours those with 2 or 3 seasons prior experience over those with greater talent. The field this year seems quite a bit stronger with the addition of Vandoorne and Marciello, however, both of whom are affiliated with big teams (McLaren and Ferrari, respectively) - even Red Bull has seen fit to put Gasly in for the tail end of the year.

Such is the nature of the feeder series - they all have a few quality drivers, a few capable drivers who could keep their head above water in Formula 1, and a glut of drivers who are really only there for target practice, so to speak; drivers who refine the abilities of the quality and capable drivers by serving as a rolling roadblock.