Grand Prix Rejects

Captain Hammer wrote:I still don't understand the love for Hulkenberg. I mean, what's more impressive: one pole position, or fending off Fernando Alonso (and an Alonso going for a third World Championship at that) for 39 laps?

Pole position.

Bernoldi fend off Coulthard for many laps in Monaco, I'd say Petrov's drive is more comparable to that. Exciting but nothing especially amazing.

If Sutil stays at Force India, I think Liuzzi may be out, while Di Resta will come in. Hulkenberg seems less likely. If Sutil leaves, and goes to Renault, which seems to be the most likely place he will go if not Force India, Liuzzi may keep his seat, and join Di Resta, but then again, Hulkeberg may just take Liuzzi's seat, but I think by that time, he would've given up and taken the reserve seat at Mercedes. I wanna see Anthony Davidson back in F1 though, what are the odds of him re-joining the grid anytime soon?

Peter wrote: I wanna see Anthony Davidson back in F1 though, what are the odds of him re-joining the grid anytime soon?

If you bet 10 euros on that, and he gets a drive, I don't think you will need to work for a living anymore

Well, with Lotus having confirmed Jarno and Heikki, it's Renault, Williams, Indian Force, STR, Hispania and Marussia.

Personally, I'm betting that Vitaly will definitely hold on to his seat. Williams is an interesting one, and I'm actually going for Giedo van der Garde for this seat. Maldonado will probably end up at HRT with the Great Sakon, though I'm not ruling out Bruno staying at the team. Personally, I think Sutil will stay at Indian Force, as much as it will hurt him in the long term, while di Resta will take over from Tony Liu. I'm confused by STR, having said not too long ago that Ricciardo was there to swap testing in FP1 between Buemi and Jaime. I'm still pretty confident that those two will stay, but I won't be surprised if both get replaced mid-way. As for Marussia, I'm thinking of Glock and d'Ambrosio.

Peter wrote:I wanna see Anthony Davidson back in F1 though, what are the odds of him re-joining the grid anytime soon?

Yeah, I wanna see him back too, but the problem is he doesn't have much. Honda are gone, as far as I know he has no cash, and I really don't think many teams hold him in high regard. So, the only way he's going to get a seat is if we buy STR now.

EDIT: Glock confident he'll be a race winner.

Mister Fungus wrote:Bernoldi fend off Coulthard for many laps in Monaco, I'd say Petrov's drive is more comparable to that. Exciting but nothing especially amazing.

Bernoldi was still arguably much more impressive as his car was 4 seconds slower than Coulthard in Monaco qualifying that year, whereas Petrov is only about one second slower than Alonso based on Abu Dhabi qualifying.

Mister Fungus wrote:Pole position.

Sebastian Vettel had ten pole positions this year. He won just two of those races - Valencia an Abu Dhabi.

Mister Fungus wrote:Bernoldi fend off Coulthard for many laps in Monaco, I'd say Petrov's drive is more comparable to that. Exciting but nothing especially amazing.

Petrov did it twice this year. He fended off Alonso for 40 laps in Abu Dhabi and for 30 laps in Istanbul. And a Fernando Alonso going after a third World Championship is much more intimidating than David Coulthard.

Captain Hammer wrote:Sebastian Vettel had ten pole positions this year. He won just two of those races - Valencia an Abu Dhabi.

Your point being? A pole position is still a pole position, and the fact is Petrov had none and Hulkenberg had one- You can twist and spin this all the way you want but it's still a pure - deserved on merit - pole position in an inferior car.

Petrov did it twice this year. He fended off Alonso for 40 laps in Abu Dhabi and for 30 laps in Istanbul. And a Fernando Alonso going after a third World Championship is much more intimidating than David Coulthard.

David Coulthard was also in the championship hunt when Bernoldi fended him off, but even at that fending of a driver doesn't mean much if we don't take into account the characteristics of the car (renaults high speed on the straights in Abu Dhabi, Ferrari being crap in Turkey) and the track. Not to mention that there's a hole fricking season worth of results and crashes to compare and not just 2-3 races. I don't know in which universe and with what kind of spining of facts could you make Petrov look better than Hulkenberg.

Captain Hammer wrote:Petrov did it twice this year. He fended off Alonso for 40 laps in Abu Dhabi and for 30 laps in Istanbul. And a Fernando Alonso going after a third World Championship is much more intimidating than David Coulthard.

Petrov hardly needed to do any defending at Abu Dhabi. The only place he could be passed was on the straights, where he had a big edge over Alonso, so he just had to sit back and relax, and not go off in the corners. In Turkey, Alonso didn't even make it into Q3, the Ferrari was rubbish at Turkey.

About the numbering, Schumacher is no surprise at all, but what does surprise me is the McLaren numbering - traditionally the driver who finished higher in the championship gets the lower number the following year (hence Coulthard getting 7 in 1998, by scoring more points than Hakkinen in 1997 etc), so surely Hamilton should get 3 and Button 4? Or does Button get preference due to winning the championship more recently than Hamilton?

I'm not supporting anyone here, but for the love of god, is Hulkenberg so good that he could do what he did in the Williams in the dry? Or if he were on wet tyres? Or the wet setup and such? C'mon, don't overstate it.

Jeroen Krautmeir wrote:

Peter wrote:I wanna see Anthony Davidson back in F1 though, what are the odds of him re-joining the grid anytime soon?

Yeah, I wanna see him back too, but the problem is he doesn't have much. Honda are gone, as far as I know he has no cash, and I really don't think many teams hold him in high regard. So, the only way he's going to get a seat is if we buy STR now.

Ant has said before that he's done with F1 and prefers sportscars these days, so I don't really think he's interested. His drives in the LMS are fantastic anyway.

I'm not supporting anyone here, but for the love of god, is Hulkenberg so good that he could do what he did in the Williams in the dry? Or if he were on wet tyres? Or the wet setup and such? C'mon, don't overstate it.

Sure, he's no god that could have put that midfield car on pole in any race, but by no means was it a fluke. Yes, the car was clearly well suited to the track and conditions (as we have seen before, spa '09) but at the end of the day what he did was still very impressive, when on the same track the boys in the top cars were sliding around setting rubbish times.
Arguably Petrov is more erratic and could have done more in that car (or was kubica outdriving the r30) but I think they're both very good talents and deserve to be in F1.

Okay, away from arguing over Hulkenberg and Petrov, further confirmation of what we knew already:

Maldonado finally confirmed at Williams

Also reported by the BBC

What I'd like to see from here is Glock going to Renault, and Petrov to Virgin. I very much doubt it will happen though.

I think Glock's talent is wasted at Virgin. I like Petrov, but I think he could improve in a team with much less pressure. Also, there is Russian money at Virgin now with Marussia, so it wouldn't be completely surprising to see Petrov or Aleshin there within the next few years anyway.

Ed24 wrote:What I'd like to see from here is Glock going to Renault, and Petrov to Virgin. I very much doubt it will happen though.

I think Glock's talent is wasted at Virgin. I like Petrov, but I think he could improve in a team with much less pressure. Also, there is Russian money at Virgin now with Marussia, so it wouldn't be completely surprising to see Petrov or Aleshin there within the next few years anyway.

I also think it's a shame that Glock has wound up at the back of the grid, he deserves a shot in a winning car, even if it's just as a seat filler for a couple races. I think Petrov could do with a little less pressure, and perhaps a teammate he can actually hope to beat, but he should be settled in at Renault, and taking him out of there could have it's own effect on him. I think he is getting better in terms of average pace, he just needs to stop crashing now.

patrick wrote:Ant has said before that he's done with F1 and prefers sportscars these days, so I don't really think he's interested. His drives in the LMS are fantastic anyway.

I'm sure if he got the chance to return, like if one of the Mercedes drivers got injured or sick, and he was offered the seat for the time being, he would take it. He's still test/2nd reserve driver there, right?

Peter wrote:

patrick wrote:Ant has said before that he's done with F1 and prefers sportscars these days, so I don't really think he's interested. His drives in the LMS are fantastic anyway.

I'm sure if he got the chance to return, like if one of the Mercedes drivers got injured or sick, and he was offered the seat for the time being, he would take it. He's still test/2nd reserve driver there, right?

His twitter bio lists him as a merc simulator driver, I don't actually think he's even been in the merc gp car this year. Merc currently do not have an official test driver (which will probably be hulkenberg in 2011)
From his comments on 5live, he seems quite detached from the team and rarely talks about doing anything with them. I guess he's more of a remnant from the Honda days. Plus the fact he probably spends a lot more time with Peugeot because of his position as driver there.
He'd probably still go for a race seat if it was there but I can't see that happening sadly. It seems these days once you're in sportscars you're finished. I suppose you could always ask him on twitter

patrick wrote:

Peter wrote:

patrick wrote:Ant has said before that he's done with F1 and prefers sportscars these days, so I don't really think he's interested. His drives in the LMS are fantastic anyway.

I'm sure if he got the chance to return, like if one of the Mercedes drivers got injured or sick, and he was offered the seat for the time being, he would take it. He's still test/2nd reserve driver there, right?

His twitter bio lists him as a merc simulator driver, I don't actually think he's even been in the merc gp car this year. Merc currently do not have an official test driver (which will probably be hulkenberg in 2011)
From his comments on 5live, he seems quite detached from the team and rarely talks about doing anything with them. I guess he's more of a remnant from the Honda days. Plus the fact he probably spends a lot more time with Peugeot because of his position as driver there.
He'd probably still go for a race seat if it was there but I can't see that happening sadly. It seems these days once you're in sportscars you're finished. I suppose you could always ask him on twitter

As far as I know, he's a test driver, and although he hasn't been in the MGP car, he developes the Mercedes simulator. He may nt be thr first person Mercedes calls in for a seat, but he's probably a second choice.


Davidson to STR, anyone? How about HRT? Just give Colin a $50 and he's good.

AndreaModa wrote:

Phoenix wrote:

AndreaModa wrote:Something that was bound to happen anyway, but is finally confirmed:

Lotus confirms Trulli and Heikki for 2011

They are down as Team Lotus on the entry sheet for 2011 too which is interesting.

Entry List

As much as I love to see the Team Lotus banner, this is a mess. Lotus-Renault and Lotus Renault? You gotta be kidding me.

Even if Lotus Cars sponsor Renault though they'll still be called Renualt by everyone, just as Marussia Virgin will still be called Virgin. We don't all go Vodafone McLaren, or AT&T Williams because sponsors come and go, the team names will stick around for much longer. When Lotus Cars realise that and after they've lost the court case, or more likely gone bust with this massive motorsport expansion they're undertaking, everything will be resumed as normal. Don't Panic!

Well, Fernandez has confirmed, via Twitter, that he is pushing ahead with renaming the outfit as Team Lotus, and to hell with the consequences (i.e. litigation from Group Lotus/Proton). I have to agree, though, that Group Lotus's proposals recently are wildly ambitious - Bahar is planning on producing multiple cars whem most high performance manufacturers would work on one model at a time, perhaps two, but definitely not six.
Their motorsport aims are even more optimistic - GT4 and GT2 (the former on the Evora, I believe, but the latter possibly on one of the new cars), a works Le Mans LMP2 (entirely from scratch), Indy Cars, GP2 sponsorship via ART GP, F1 sponsorship deals: for such a cash strapped company, this is very likely to end in either financial ruin or a considerably scaled back investment.

Additionally, even if Group Lotus were to sponsor a team, their use of the Lotus name is not that valuable; the real money is with the Team Lotus name, because the Concorde agreement has a clause which pays teams with a "historic name" extra, in recognition of their brand value. At the moment, that covers Mclaren, Ferrari and Williams, all of whom have been established for decades and with a rich back history - Team Lotus would be recognised as a high value name under this agreement, and eligible for bonus payments, but not Group Lotus, which has no historic link with F1.

aleshin claims to have secured a seat, but he refuses to tell us which one...
virgin? renault? somewhere else? or only a test seat?

mario wrote:[Well, Fernandez has confirmed, via Twitter, that he is pushing ahead with renaming the outfit as Team Lotus, and to hell with the consequences (i.e. litigation from Group Lotus/Proton).

Additionally, even if Group Lotus were to sponsor a team, their use of the Lotus name is not that valuable; the real money is with the Team Lotus name, because the Concorde agreement has a clause which pays teams with a "historic name" extra, in recognition of their brand value. At the moment, that covers Mclaren, Ferrari and Williams, all of whom have been established for decades and with a rich back history - Team Lotus would be recognised as a high value name under this agreement, and eligible for bonus payments, but not Group Lotus, which has no historic link with F1.

I think you make a significant point in that last paragraph, namely in the sense that I hadn't thought of it but makes a lot of logical sense considering the sums of money that I imagine are involved.

And in the other sentance that I've left in your quotation above, I heard Tony Fernandes talk at my old school last week and he seem to suggest not only is he pushing ahead with renaming the team but also buying the car company outright and expanding the brand to include things like Lotus hotels etc.... (Well, he is friends with Branson who applies one brand name across the whole of his empire...)

mario wrote:
Well, Fernandez has confirmed, via Twitter, that he is pushing ahead with renaming the outfit as Team Lotus, and to hell with the consequences (i.e. litigation from Group Lotus/Proton). I have to agree, though, that Group Lotus's proposals recently are wildly ambitious - Bahar is planning on producing multiple cars whem most high performance manufacturers would work on one model at a time, perhaps two, but definitely not six.
Their motorsport aims are even more optimistic - GT4 and GT2 (the former on the Evora, I believe, but the latter possibly on one of the new cars), a works Le Mans LMP2 (entirely from scratch), Indy Cars, GP2 sponsorship via ART GP, F1 sponsorship deals: for such a cash strapped company, this is very likely to end in either financial ruin or a considerably scaled back investment.

Additionally, even if Group Lotus were to sponsor a team, their use of the Lotus name is not that valuable; the real money is with the Team Lotus name, because the Concorde agreement has a clause which pays teams with a "historic name" extra, in recognition of their brand value. At the moment, that covers Mclaren, Ferrari and Williams, all of whom have been established for decades and with a rich back history - Team Lotus would be recognised as a high value name under this agreement, and eligible for bonus payments, but not Group Lotus, which has no historic link with F1.

I have to say this is getting really weird. So, Team Lotus is with Tony Fernandes, despite what Proton might have to say (great balls of steel indeed, but I love it being a big Team Lotus fan ) and they even plan to use the brand to name hotels and God knows what else...Then, Group Lotus pretends to act megalomanically, and they'll probably end up in bankrupcy, especially with the current financial situation. Take a seat, lads...

mario wrote:I have to agree, though, that Group Lotus's proposals recently are wildly ambitious - Bahar is planning on producing multiple cars whem most high performance manufacturers would work on one model at a time, perhaps two, but definitely not six.
Their motorsport aims are even more optimistic - GT4 and GT2 (the former on the Evora, I believe, but the latter possibly on one of the new cars), a works Le Mans LMP2 (entirely from scratch), Indy Cars, GP2 sponsorship via ART GP, F1 sponsorship deals: for such a cash strapped company, this is very likely to end in either financial ruin or a considerably scaled back investment.

Group Lotus/Lotus cars or whatever they are known as seem to be quite a farce. There's an interesting article here and the followup here for anyone interested. Bahar basically throws Lotus (chapman's) principles out of the window (as well as GL's public reputation). It's clear they just aren't the right people to be behind such a team.
Now it is debatable that Fernandes and Gascoyne are those right people, but let's be frank, they haven't really done anything wrong so far.

in case anyone hasn't seen it yet, the site here has a good explanation of events, although the site seems to favour 1malaysia over GL.

Hmm, its the first time since 1981 that Williams don't have 1 European driver driving.

Ahem? 2005 Monza?

Webber and Pizzonia?

I meant from the beginning of the season.

Ed24 wrote:What I'd like to see from here is Glock going to Renault, and Petrov to Virgin. I very much doubt it will happen though.

I think Glock's talent is wasted at Virgin. I like Petrov, but I think he could improve in a team with much less pressure. Also, there is Russian money at Virgin now with Marussia, so it wouldn't be completely surprising to see Petrov or Aleshin there within the next few years anyway.

Why do people seem to think that replacing Petrov at Renault will insteantly bring better results? I mean, it might, but here's the catch: if Renault let Petrov go, they lose 10% of their total budget. That's less money for development, which means less developents will be introduced. And one of the reasons why the Renault R30 was so successful was because they were pretty much the only team to bring a specialised aero package to each race. If Renault lose Petrov's money by sending him to another team, they lose their development budget.

People...

The worst that can happen is going to happen.

I can hear your pain already.

Can I nominate this guy as the Reject of the Year for 2011?

On a side note, It's also the first time since 1996 that the team doesn't start out with a German.

That's music to my ears. I want to see Pastor Maldonado actually do well now specifically because people are whinging over him for no good reason.

Cynon wrote:That's music to my ears. I want to see Pastor Maldonado actually do well now specifically because people are whinging over him for no good reason.

Apart from the fact that we have direct proof that Nico is a better driver. I'm talking about GP2 in 2009. Both Nico and Pastor were at ART. It was Nico's 1st year in GP2, Pastor's 3rd. Nico got 100 points, Pastor got 36.

Also, I think people are disappointed that Williams, a popular team, finally had a decent pairing - their first since Ralf and JPM - and one which could bring it back towards the front of the grid - not to mention the stigma of hiring a pay driver.

Nico Hulkenberg went to Force India last week (tuesday afternoon) and had a seat fitting in the new car and a tour of the factory. Doesn't necessarily mean anything, but my mates spotted him.

Ed24 wrote:

Cynon wrote:That's music to my ears. I want to see Pastor Maldonado actually do well now specifically because people are whinging over him for no good reason.

Apart from the fact that we have direct proof that Nico is a better driver. I'm talking about GP2 in 2009. Both Nico and Pastor were at ART. It was Nico's 1st year in GP2, Pastor's 3rd. Nico got 100 points, Pastor got 36.

Also, I think people are disappointed that Williams, a popular team, finally had a decent pairing - their first since Ralf and JPM - and one which could bring it back towards the front of the grid - not to mention the stigma of hiring a pay driver.

Ahem - Kazuki Nakajima? His seat at Williams was the flip side for Williams getting a very favourable engine deal from Toyota in return, so Williams do have a pretty recent precedent for recruiting a pay driver.

And as I've pointed out before, getting a pay driver is a short term fix for what could be far greater long term pain. Yes, Williams in recent years have been strapped for cash, and the potential sponsorship that Maldonado can bring in will be welcome indeed, but for Williams to really improve, they also need to pick up decent points finishes. As Eddie Jordan pointed out, whilst the publicity goes with the WDC, the Constructors title is where the money is to be made, and despite a few modest improvements, Williams only just squeezed past Force India this year (thanks to Hulkenberg scoring in Brazil after Barrichello had, as per usual, a torrid time at his home race).
OK, Rubens did contribute the bulk of those points, but even so, Hulkenberg did pick up a fair few, and was for a large chunk of time ahead of his rival, Petrov, over at Renault. Besides, Rubens cannot go on forever - he is already 38 years old, and has been in the sport for nearly two decades. Williams had the chance to pair Hulkenberg with Rubens for another year, let him mature and develop alongside an experienced but competitive team mate, before letting Rubens retire on a high within the next few years for Hulkenberg to pick up the reins at Williams.
Now, I was critical of Hulkenberg in the past, that I do concede, but towards the end of the season, he was starting to show what he was capable of, and the pairing between Hulkenberg and Rubens looked like it could have been a well picked line up. Maldonado might surprise us, it is true - Kobayashi's results in the 2008 and 2009 European GP2 series were not that remarkable, but look how he has blossomed in F1 - but at the moment, I guess that most observers are seeing this in a negative light.

Faustus wrote:Nico Hulkenberg went to Force India last week (tuesday afternoon) and had a seat fitting in the new car and a tour of the factory. Doesn't necessarily mean anything, but my mates spotted him.

Interesting - it isn't conclusive, because Force India might want him just for a test session or as a test driver, but perhaps Force India really are thinking of giving Hulkenberg a go? Either way, I can't imagine their either Sutil or Liuzzi would have been entirely happy to see that, as they must be wondering if they will have a seat next year.

JeremyMcClean wrote:On a side note, It's also the first time since 1996 that the team doesn't start out with a German.

I'll see your little factoid and raise you this one:

It's the first time since 1982 that Williams have not contracted a European driver to race for the entire season.

Faustus wrote:Nico Hulkenberg went to Force India last week (tuesday afternoon) and had a seat fitting in the new car and a tour of the factory. Doesn't necessarily mean anything, but my mates spotted him.

Seat fittings generally mean contracts. There's no point in going to the factory to get a seat fitted if you're not going to drive for them in some capacity.

All the same, I'll wait until it's reported in a news source like Autosport or F1 Fanatic first before I believe it.

So...

Line 1:
Petrov to Virgin ---> Sutil takes seat at Renault ---> Di Resta takes seat at FI ---> Hülkenberg gets second seat at FI ---> Liuzzi and di Grassi out of picture

Line 2:
Petrov STAYS at Renault ---> Sutil STAYS at FI ---> Hülkenberg gets second seat at FI ---> Liuzzi is out of picture and di Resta stays driver 3?

Line 3, now this is a bit messed up but might be true
Petrov stays at Renault ---> Sutil stays at FI ---> Hülkenberg takes up dual role of Mercedes reserve AND FI 2nd driver a la Badoer '99?
Although I don't think this might happen, but if Schumacher can't raise his ante, he would give his seat to Hülkenberg in 2012?

Captain Hammer wrote:

JeremyMcClean wrote:On a side note, It's also the first time since 1996 that the team doesn't start out with a German.

I'll see your little factoid and raise you this one:

It's the first time since 1982 that Williams have not contracted a European driver to race for the entire season.

I already mentioned that

Autosport are reporting that Paul Di Resta and Nico Hulkenburg will be at Force India for 2011. Vijay Mallya wants to get rid of Liuzzi and is tired of Sutil making overtures to bigger teams, so he'll get the chop as well.

Surprising move, though makes more sense the more I think about it. Sutil to HRT I suppose...

Debaser wrote:Autosport are reporting that Paul Di Resta and Nico Hulkenburg will be at Force India for 2011. Vijay Mallya wants to get rid of Liuzzi and is tired of Sutil making overtures to bigger teams, so he'll get the chop as well.

Surprising move, though makes more sense the more I think about it. Sutil to HRT I suppose...

Really? I don't see the article anywhere, or is it in the magazine?

Sutil wont go to HRT. Sure he has Medion, but they aren't giving much, are they?

If this happens, Sutil will try to be reserve driver at Mercedes and wait for a race drive in 2012.

Jeroen Krautmeir wrote:

Captain Hammer wrote:

JeremyMcClean wrote:On a side note, It's also the first time since 1996 that the team doesn't start out with a German.

I'll see your little factoid and raise you this one:

It's the first time since 1982 that Williams have not contracted a European driver to race for the entire season.

I already mentioned that

Correction, 81. Rosberg is european

DonTirri wrote:

Jeroen Krautmeir wrote:

Captain Hammer wrote:I'll see your little factoid and raise you this one:

It's the first time since 1982 that Williams have not contracted a European driver to race for the entire season.

I already mentioned that

Correction, 81. Rosberg is european

And so is Derek Daly

Sutil to Virgin?? Can't see him getting that Renault seat from Petrov.

Red Bull Racing
1. Sebastian Vettel
2. Mark Webber

Vodafone Mclaren Mercedes
3. Lewis Hamilton
4. Jenson Button

Scuderia Ferrari Marlboro
5. Fernando Alonso
6. Felipe Massa

Mercedes GP Petronas
7. Michael Schumacher
8. Nico Rosberg

Renault F1
9. Robert Kubica
10. Vitaly Petrov

AT&T Williams
11. Rubens Barrichello
12. Pastor Maldonado

Force India F1
14. Nico Hülkenberg
15. Paul di Resta

Sauber Ferrari
16. Kamui Kobayashi
17. Sergio Perez Mendoza

Scuderia Toro Rosso
18. TBA (but presumably Buemi)
19. TBA (but presumably Alguersuari)

Team Lotus
20. Jarno Trulli
21. Heikki Kovalainen

HRT F1
22. TBA (no surprises here)
23. TBA

Marussia Virgin Racing
24. Adrian Sutil
25. Timo Glock