Grand Prix Rejects

Posted: **18 Oct 2015, 09:25**

giraurd wrote:Sorry to drag on, but why does the driver the rookie is facing *need* to be comparable to Button, when Magnussen was further off Button than the examples I named to their benchmarks?

For what it's worth, we also can't know for sure whether Button was performing up to his normal standards in 2014 or not - remember how awful he was compared to Hamilton when struggling with balance?

First, Magnussen was only further off in total points - in terms of single lap pace, he was right up there. Points are, of course, only handed out on race day, which is where the experience gap between Magnussen and Button always came to the fore, especially since Button's strength was always in race pace. And anyway, in the case of Perez and Kobayashi, the gap between them in points was very similar to Button and Magnussen's - Perez scored 46% of Kobayashi's 2011 score, and Magnussen 43% of Button's score.

And second, we have clear evidence that Button is at least good enough to give Alonso a run for his money in 2015 - as he was most of the time against Hamilton. While his first half of 2014 was a bit suspect, he did have to step up his game towards the end of the season to be able to fend off Magnussen.

Posted: **18 Oct 2015, 15:17**

Of course, the whole problem with comparing teammates over one or two seasons is a mid- to late 1990s example:

Hill beat Villeneuve
Villeneuve beat Frentzen
Frentzen beat Hill...

So who was best of those three? (I would say Hill, but then he had a terrible 1999...) You can only ever compare a driver to his teammate, but even that is a flawed argument as shown above. So can we move on please? We all have our opinions, biases and preferences for drivers, and I don't think that we will make any further progress with this debate. However, I doubt that I will stop the more vocal of you continuing to express your subjective opinions...

Posted: **18 Oct 2015, 15:32**

dr-baker wrote:So can we move on please?

Aw, but I was just getting out the popcorn

Posted: **18 Oct 2015, 15:35**

dr-baker wrote:Of course, the whole problem with comparing teammates over one or two seasons is a mid- to late 1990s example:

Hill beat Villeneuve
Villeneuve beat Frentzen
Frentzen beat Hill...

So who was best of those three? (I would say Hill, but then he had a terrible 1999...) You can only ever compare a driver to his teammate, but even that is a flawed argument as shown above. So can we move on please? We all have our opinions, biases and preferences for drivers, and I don't think that we will make any further progress with this debate. However, I doubt that I will stop the more vocal of you continuing to express your subjective opinions...

If you think that's ever going to stop people from trying to compare drivers who weren't teammates, then you're sadly mistaken.

Posted: **18 Oct 2015, 15:39**

dr-baker wrote:So can we move on please?

You make a really good point with the old Villenueve/Hill/Frentzen paradox but the guys are just geeking out really, I don't think they've started getting personal and abusive have they? As long as everyone's being civil let them argue it out....
FOREVER! if they want to.

Posted: **18 Oct 2015, 16:42**

Oh, but I totally agree that the "driver x is better than driver y because he beat him in year z" arguments are dumb, which the Hill/Villeneuve/Frentzen trio duly demonstrated, for there is no "driver bestness skill" as such, and the drivers' performances may vary a lot from year to year.

The debate, however, wasn't about that but the respective performances of the drivers over single seasons, which, albeit never completely unsubjective, is a far more concrete topic in my opinion. (That, even if in this particular debate no conclusion can seem to be found...at least apart from that me and Salamander appear to have conflicting definitions over to which degree potential shown in qualifying should be considered when rating a season-long performance :twisted:

)

Posted: **19 Oct 2015, 09:24**

If dr-baker thinks he can stop this discussion with the "Hill-Villeneuve-Frentzen paradox" then he must think again!

I don't agree with giraurd then. It is not dumb. It is one of the most direct way of comparing drivers. Otherwise one could not say that x=Nico Rosberg is better than y=Nakajima just because he beat="completely anihilated" him in year z=2009. There is no doubt that comparisons although not completely fair do work and are also a way for the teams to measure their own drivers. As for the so called paradox, it is only apparent.

First Damon Hill, at pretty much the final years of his F1 peak, beat a rookie called Villeneuve who despite being only on his first year in F1 was already a match to his more than experienced team-mate. Fast forward a year and Villeneuve, now with a year on his belt was only going to get better and proceeded to smash his new team-mate Frentzen and was still better than him in the following year. This makes Villeneuve the better of that trio. This was the easy part.

Now for the hardest. Come 1999 Frentzen switched to Jordan and went against Hill, the old Champion who by then was no spring chicken in F1, being 38 years and all. Surely, Hill was no match to Frentzen by then and proceeded to be massively outperformed. Still, in my mind (this is now very subjective), Hill was better than Frentzen at peak powers. He ended up beating Villeneuve, something Frentzen never did. And being Champion, which is no easy feat. What's more, 1999 was the last year before Damon's retirement, who was not only enjoying his racing and the cars but realized his time was up.

Posted: **19 Oct 2015, 10:25**

DanielPT wrote:If dr-baker thinks he can stop this discussion with the "Hill-Villeneuve-Frentzen paradox" then he must think again!

I know this forum better than that! I knew I couldn't stop the discussion, but it has moved on a little, eh?

And the way you explained the paradox, that logic did run through my head in a convoluted way as I was posting, but you explained it more eloquently than me.

Posted: **19 Oct 2015, 12:32**

I think when it comes to comparing F1 drivers at different points in their careers and at differing ages perhaps it's best to just remember 'sometimes you're the bug and sometimes you're the windshield'.

Posted: **19 Oct 2015, 12:33**

CoopsII wrote:I think when it comes to comparing F1 drivers at different points in their careers and at differing ages perhaps it's best to just remember 'sometimes you're the bug and sometimes you're the windshield'.

Alternatively, "Sometimes you're the statue, and sometimes you're the pigeon."

Posted: **19 Oct 2015, 12:49**

DanielPT wrote:I don't agree with giraurd then. It is not dumb. It is one of the most direct way of comparing drivers.

I think trying to compare drivers' bestness IS dumb for it is so vague to say driver A is better than driver B. Better at what? Driving a racing car or specifically an F1 car? How much weight should be put on each attribute if A is faster in qualifying trim and B is the more consistent racer? Do we discuss their ability to pull miracles out of a slow car or their ability to take the title in a dominant car? Do we discuss their entire careers or how good they were within a set timeframe? etc etc etc etc etc.

Ok, we can confidently say Rosberg is to most (probably all) standards a better driver than Nakajima based on their time together as teammates - but when it comes to the Hill/Villeneuve/Frentzen trio or such, it definitely should first be clarified what exact qualities we are talking about before spitting out an autosportforum-style A>B>C list. Probably none of the first 2 could have done what Frentzen almost did in 1999 Jordan even in their peaks, but that doesn't mean Frentzen would have taken the 1996 title in a Williams. Villeneuve has demonstrated his immense ability in non-F1 machinery, but his F1 "peak" was the shortest. So, who's the best? :roll:

Posted: **19 Oct 2015, 12:57**

giraurd wrote: So, who's the best?

Stephane Sarrazin.

Posted: **19 Oct 2015, 14:20**

giraurd wrote:I think trying to compare drivers' bestness IS dumb for it is so vague to say driver A is better than driver B. Better at what? Driving a racing car or specifically an F1 car? How much weight should be put on each attribute if A is faster in qualifying trim and B is the more consistent racer? Do we discuss their ability to pull miracles out of a slow car or their ability to take the title in a dominant car? Do we discuss their entire careers or how good they were within a set timeframe? etc etc etc etc etc.

When you put it in those terms, sure it is dumb. Except no one here is doing that. What people are doing, as maybe a geek exercise or perhaps doing some kind of guessing game, is "finding out" who is the best. Who is the best at what? Well, this is a F1 thread so it is safe to say that it is best at F1 racing. But at what you say? Well, at achieving the best results. Ultimately, it is all about that, no? Results when implicit. And then results given the machinery at their disposition. Still, you might have a driver like Hulkenberg. How can Hulkenberg be a dominant champion if is not having such machinery at his disposal? Well, you might say that he if he cannot place himself in that machinery then he doesn't fit into that mold. Unfair? Again, this exercise is not meant to be that.

giraurd wrote:Ok, we can confidently say Rosberg is to most (probably all) standards a better driver than Nakajima based on their time together as teammates - but when it comes to the Hill/Villeneuve/Frentzen trio or such, it definitely should first be clarified what exact qualities we are talking about before spitting out an autosportforum-style A>B>C list. Probably none of the first 2 could have done what Frentzen almost did in 1999 Jordan even in their peaks, but that doesn't mean Frentzen would have taken the 1996 title in a Williams. Villeneuve has demonstrated his immense ability in non-F1 machinery, but his F1 "peak" was the shortest. So, who's the best?

Again, this is all about results. In that case you clearly can say that Hill and Villeneuve were better than Frentzen. And it is not like Frentzen didn't drove a dominant car. He did and was dominated by his then team-mate Villeneuve. Would Villeneuve be capable of doing what Frentzen did at Jordan? Perhaps not, but you might argue that he did just that dragging the BAR into places it perhaps was not able to go. Could Frentzen have won the 1996 title in a Williams? Well, he could not in the 1997 which was just marginally less dominant so nothing indicates he could have done it in 96. Then you have other factors into account that say Frentzen was in contention in 99 because McLaren kept failing at finishing the races. And who says that Jordan wasn't better than what Frentzen was showing? And I don't agree that Villeneuve peak wasn't short. He just spent the best part of his career in below average machinery. He was still showing the way to Panis (who was highly rated back then) in 2003. It is all pretty much implicit. Results in the span of their career and the moment surrounding the comparing years in order to infer the team-mate ability.

Posted: **19 Oct 2015, 16:52**

CoopsII wrote:
giraurd wrote: So, who's the best?

Stephane Sarrazin.

I raise you Marco Apicella and Al Pease. :lol:

Posted: **19 Oct 2015, 21:02**

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...

Posted: **20 Oct 2015, 22:27**

DanielPT wrote:
giraurd wrote:And I don't agree that Villeneuve peak wasn't short. He just spent the best part of his career in below average machinery. He was still showing the way to Panis (who was highly rated back then) in 2003. It is all pretty much implicit. Results in the span of their career and the moment surrounding the comparing years in order to infer the team-mate ability.

...but the following year was he beaten by Button by more than Kevin Magnussen was?

Posted: **21 Oct 2015, 09:07**

MorbidelliObese wrote:
DanielPT wrote:
giraurd wrote:And I don't agree that Villeneuve peak wasn't short. He just spent the best part of his career in below average machinery. He was still showing the way to Panis (who was highly rated back then) in 2003. It is all pretty much implicit. Results in the span of their career and the moment surrounding the comparing years in order to infer the team-mate ability.

...but the following year was he beaten by Button by more than Kevin Magnussen was?

Are you talking about Jenson Button, World Champion in 2009, the guy who managed to be best of the rest behind the all conquering Ferrari in 04 and in a BAR, he who's only been beaten by a team-mate in 3 times after that and up until now in 11 years span and 2 of them were against Lewis Hamilton? Are you talking about the only Lewis Hamilton team-mate to ever finish ahead of him in the championship? Is that Jenson Button?

Going back to the start of the discussion, that only enhances Kevin Magnussen results, me thinks

Posted: **21 Oct 2015, 11:49**

DanielPT wrote:Are you talking about Jenson Button, World Champion in 2009, the guy who managed to be best of the rest behind the all conquering Ferrari in 04 and in a BAR, he who's only been beaten by a team-mate in 3 times after that and up until now in 11 years span and 2 of them were against Lewis Hamilton? Are you talking about the only Lewis Hamilton team-mate to ever finish ahead of him in the championship? Is that Jenson Button?

DPT, I think that is the Jenson Button they're talking about :shock:

Posted: **21 Oct 2015, 12:00**

CoopsII wrote:
DanielPT wrote:Are you talking about Jenson Button, World Champion in 2009, the guy who managed to be best of the rest behind the all conquering Ferrari in 04 and in a BAR, he who's only been beaten by a team-mate in 3 times after that and up until now in 11 years span and 2 of them were against Lewis Hamilton? Are you talking about the only Lewis Hamilton team-mate to ever finish ahead of him in the championship? Is that Jenson Button?

DPT, I think that is the Jenson Button they're talking about

Conversely, that is never the Jenson Button Klon is talking about

Posted: **21 Oct 2015, 12:10**

tommykl wrote:
CoopsII wrote:
DanielPT wrote:Are you talking about Jenson Button, World Champion in 2009, the guy who managed to be best of the rest behind the all conquering Ferrari in 04 and in a BAR, he who's only been beaten by a team-mate in 3 times after that and up until now in 11 years span and 2 of them were against Lewis Hamilton? Are you talking about the only Lewis Hamilton team-mate to ever finish ahead of him in the championship? Is that Jenson Button?

DPT, I think that is the Jenson Button they're talking about

Conversely, that is never the Jenson Button Klon is talking about

That makes sense, Klon lives in an alternate universe where Button is crap and Rubens is the second coming.

Posted: **21 Oct 2015, 12:43**

I keep telling you, if Rubens hadn't had that puncture in Interlagos 2009... *sad trumpet music plays* :roll:

Posted: **21 Oct 2015, 15:18**

RonDenisDeletraz wrote:That makes sense, Klon lives in an alternate universe where Button is crap and Rubens is the second coming.

Whilst in reality, Rubens was just coming second.

Posted: **21 Oct 2015, 15:34**

Ataxia wrote:
RonDenisDeletraz wrote:That makes sense, Klon lives in an alternate universe where Button is crap and Rubens is the second coming.

Whilst in reality, Rubens was just coming second.

Worthy of a sig that one

Posted: **21 Oct 2015, 16:19**

Ataxia wrote:
RonDenisDeletraz wrote:That makes sense, Klon lives in an alternate universe where Button is crap and Rubens is the second coming.

Whilst in reality, Rubens was just coming second.

Well, how do you come first when your inept group calling themselves a "team" screw everything up all the time? Remember, ataxia, these people more likely than not still having jobs is one of the reason why you are working a soul-sucking job instead of living your dreams, so I wouldn't be so smarmy.

Posted: **21 Oct 2015, 19:38**

Klon wrote:
Ataxia wrote:
RonDenisDeletraz wrote:That makes sense, Klon lives in an alternate universe where Button is crap and Rubens is the second coming.

Whilst in reality, Rubens was just coming second.

Well, how do you come first when your inept group calling themselves a "team" screw everything up all the time? Remember, ataxia, these people more likely than not still having jobs is one of the reason why you are working a soul-sucking job instead of living your dreams, so I wouldn't be so smarmy.

#banter

Least I have a job...

Posted: **21 Oct 2015, 19:49**

Ataxia wrote:#banter

Least I have a job...

Enemy's KLON is hurt by burn!

Posted: **21 Oct 2015, 20:33**

Klon wrote:
Ataxia wrote:#banter

Least I have a job...

Enemy's KLON is hurt by burn!

Hah! You better have BURN HEAL!

Posted: **22 Oct 2015, 15:56**

DanielPT wrote:Are you talking about Jenson Button, World Champion in 2009, the guy who managed to be best of the rest behind the all conquering Ferrari in 04 and in a BAR, he who's only been beaten by a team-mate in 3 times after that and up until now in 11 years span and 2 of them were against Lewis Hamilton? Are you talking about the only Lewis Hamilton team-mate to ever finish ahead of him in the championship? Is that Jenson Button?

Going back to the start of the discussion, that only enhances Kevin Magnussen results, me thinks

Was being a bit tongue-in-cheek sorry, saw when Villeneuve got dragged into the conversation and realised he shared a teammate with Magnussen I couldn't resist. To be honest putting my serious hat on I agree with you - Button was and is a very good driver, which in turn reflects well on Magnussen.

Posted: **22 Oct 2015, 16:58**

MorbidelliObese wrote:
DanielPT wrote:Are you talking about Jenson Button, World Champion in 2009, the guy who managed to be best of the rest behind the all conquering Ferrari in 04 and in a BAR, he who's only been beaten by a team-mate in 3 times after that and up until now in 11 years span and 2 of them were against Lewis Hamilton? Are you talking about the only Lewis Hamilton team-mate to ever finish ahead of him in the championship? Is that Jenson Button?

Going back to the start of the discussion, that only enhances Kevin Magnussen results, me thinks

Was being a bit tongue-in-cheek sorry, saw when Villeneuve got dragged into the conversation and realised he shared a teammate with Magnussen I couldn't resist. To be honest putting my serious hat on I agree with you - Button was and is a very good driver, which in turn reflects well on Magnussen.

No problem. I probably also came across as a bit irked without really being it. Just reminding the achievements of Jenson Button in a probable not very friendly way. Sorry about that. It was also a way to show that this team-mate comparison can really deliver some order into proceedings.

Posted: **23 Oct 2015, 16:12**

Behold, the latest development in the Red Bull saga...

Posted: **23 Oct 2015, 16:26**

I think I can successfully make the claim that Red Bull currently have no idea which engine supplier they'll use next year.

Posted: **23 Oct 2015, 18:22**

East Londoner wrote:Behold, the latest development in the Red Bull saga...

Now there's desperate... and DESPERATE!

Posted: **23 Oct 2015, 18:27**

East Londoner wrote:Behold, the latest development in the Red Bull saga...

If that's true, and it's a big IF, I think it proves that Bernie still wields quite a bit of power.

Posted: **23 Oct 2015, 18:47**

Hoping that that helps to speed up Honda's rate of development.

Posted: **23 Oct 2015, 19:18**

CoopsII wrote:
East Londoner wrote:Behold, the latest development in the Red Bull saga...

If that's true, and it's a big IF, I think it proves that Bernie still wields quite a bit of power.

And yet we are in a situation where it would not be clear who required more persuasion to sign that deal...

Posted: **23 Oct 2015, 21:23**

Driver announcement imminent at Team Enstone. It's likely to be Jolyon Palmer driving the second Lotus for 2016. Magnussen and Vergne are not currently in the States at present. However...Stoffel Vandoorne is...

EDIT: Palmer confirmed at Lotus for 2016

Posted: **23 Oct 2015, 21:46**

East Londoner wrote:Driver announcement imminent at Team Enstone. It's likely to be Jolyon Palmer driving the second Lotus for 2016. Magnussen and Vergne are not currently in the States at present. However...Stoffel Vandoorne is...

EDIT: Palmer confirmed at Lotus for 2016

if K-mag is confirmed at Haas would that be a record number of sons of ex f1 drivers in f1?

Posted: **23 Oct 2015, 22:20**

Jolyon Palmer... christ, I think the only worse GP2 champion they could've picked was Leimer, and then only barely. Maldonado will crush him.

Posted: **23 Oct 2015, 22:35**

Maldonado/Palmer.

Seriously? That's like getting paid £50 million to shite in two cars and send them on track.

Posted: **23 Oct 2015, 23:00**

This may be the stupidest comment Keith Collantine's ever made :facepalm:

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