Grand Prix Rejects

Is it just me or is Narain really impressive in 2011 considering he hasnt raced in in f1 since 2005? I expected him to be a second slower than Liuzzi throughout the year but he has only been one or two tenths slower. Plus he hasnt had too many spins and accidents like in 2005

dhruvkaicker90 wrote:Is it just me or is Narain really impressive in 2011 considering he hasnt raced in in f1 since 2005? I expected him to be a second slower than Liuzzi throughout the year but he has only been one or two tenths slower. Plus he hasnt had too many spins and accidents like in 2005

Tonio Liuzzi, your career is now officially over after this season.

Meanwhile, HRT equal their best ever finishes of 13th and 14th, securing them ahead of Virgin and perhaps even Lotus in the constructors. Awwwwwww yyyyyyeeeeaaaahhhhh!!!!!!!!

Just Virgin I think, but they did very well. Tonio's blue plastic bag boots obviously gave him the psychological boost he needed and were worth the ridicule.

No, Lotus has one more 13th place, so HRT "only" beat Virgin. But still: muahahaha!

important result today this unless there are more mad races or ones with cars dropping out like flies I don't see mvr getting as high

Peter wrote:Meanwhile, HRT equal their best ever finishes of 13th and 14th, securing them ahead of Virgin and perhaps even Lotus in the constructors. Awwwwwww yyyyyyeeeeaaaahhhhh!!!!!!!!

And it is quite likely that they will stay there - with Virgin Racing announcing that they will not be updating the MVR-02 after the British GP (save for, presumably, a Monza spec package), it's likely that HRT will move ahead of Virgin Racing in terms of pace in the next few races (at least, they should do, assuming that they continue to develop the F111). That said, given that Team Lotus have generally had reasonably good reliability, and been closer to the midfield pack than HRT, I think that they might not be able to beat Team Lotus (short of another very chaotic race).

Yeeeeeehaaaaaaaaaaaaah!!!

Our most beloved rejects are ahead of the Virgins! Again!

Tonio Liuzzi wrote:It’s a great feeling to overtake other cars, (...) it’s always a great feeling when you’re racing properly.

That's the spirit!! Go Hispania, go!!

Klon wrote:No, Lotus has one more 13th place, so HRT "only" beat Virgin. But still: muahahaha!

Go home, Carlos Ferreira!

So, step one is complete.



Let's move on to step 2: Beat Lotus!

dhruvkaicker90 wrote:Is it just me or is Narain really impressive in 2011 considering he hasnt raced in in f1 since 2005? I expected him to be a second slower than Liuzzi throughout the year but he has only been one or two tenths slower. Plus he hasnt had too many spins and accidents like in 2005

Well he drove like a retard yesterday while being lapped, went off the track on two consecutive corners, and completely ruined Massa's brilliant race. Still completely unworthy even of a HRT.

jpm wrote:...and completely ruined Massa's brilliant race.

Well, one can see it that way if we ignore that Massa bathplugged up himself there. Has nobody to blame but himself, really, for that one.

Klon wrote:

jpm wrote:...and completely ruined Massa's brilliant race.

Well, one can see it that way if we ignore that Massa bathplugged up himself there. Has nobody to blame but himself, really, for that one.

Exactly. He didn't get in the way, he didn't block him on purpose, he didn't turn in on him. I have no idea why you're blaming Narain for Massa's spin, jpm. It's totally his own fault.

DanielPT wrote:So, step one is complete.



Let's move on to step 2: Beat Lotus!

What a relief. I always thougth "Step 2" meant stop paying chassis supplier...

Popi_Larrauri wrote:What a relief. I always thougth "Step 2" meant stop paying chassis supplier...

Wasn't that Step 0.5?

Unfortunately, Karthikeyan was penalized for cutting a corner while battling Glock, and so he's 17th instead of 13th.



One problem I see that HRT has, is race pace. One thing that they might be doing, which I know was what they were doing in 2010, was not pushing the car hard, so as to just make it to the finish, as reliability was the only thing that they were superior in at all, and they couldn't afford to be fixing any serious problems. But now we see HRT closing in and even beating Vrigin in qualifying, but unitl now in Canada, were just left far behind at race start. I see that their race pace has improved considerably this race, as they were able to be involved in on-track action.

Peter wrote:Unfortunately, Karthikeyan was penalized for cutting a corner while battling Glock, and so he's 17th instead of 13th.



One problem I see that HRT has, is race pace. One thing that they might be doing, which I know was what they were doing in 2010, was not pushing the car hard, so as to just make it to the finish, as reliability was the only thing that they were superior in at all, and they couldn't afford to be fixing any serious problems. But now we see HRT closing in and even beating Vrigin in qualifying, but unitl now in Canada, were just left far behind at race start. I see that their race pace has improved considerably this race, as they were able to be involved in on-track action.

Let's have in mind that Minardi were unusually strong in Canada. Maybe it's the track that makes it easier for smaller teams in some term... don't know... maybe raw engine power (in both cases, Minardi and HRT) or lack of aero-package relative importance. But I'm just throwing ideas in the air.

Popi_Larrauri wrote:

Peter wrote:Unfortunately, Karthikeyan was penalized for cutting a corner while battling Glock, and so he's 17th instead of 13th.



One problem I see that HRT has, is race pace. One thing that they might be doing, which I know was what they were doing in 2010, was not pushing the car hard, so as to just make it to the finish, as reliability was the only thing that they were superior in at all, and they couldn't afford to be fixing any serious problems. But now we see HRT closing in and even beating Vrigin in qualifying, but unitl now in Canada, were just left far behind at race start. I see that their race pace has improved considerably this race, as they were able to be involved in on-track action.

Let's have in mind that Minardi were unusually strong in Canada. Maybe it's the track that makes it easier for smaller teams in some term... don't know... maybe raw engine power (in both cases, Minardi and HRT) or lack of aero-package relative importance. But I'm just throwing ideas in the air.

It is a track that relies more on straignhtline speed and power rather than downforce, so yes that makes sense. Plus, HRT have a new EBD, which have helped them immensely at Montreal, and if they can get more downforce without costing drag, that's great for this track, and they retain straightline speed.

Massa blamed Karthikeyan for his crash & Karthikeyan had the best comeback ever "this is coming from a guy who knows he is losing his seat"

The F111 seems to be a good nimble car, ok maybe the second slowest car, but if their is many more races like the last one, then HRT could suprise again.

goood result more to come as they learn more on the setup side of things plus the updates they still have in pipeline at the moment I don't see them beating TL unless they find at least 1-1.5 seconds just to match them first if they do one hell of an achievement.

Also got to say in terms of looks of the car compared to TL and MVR I do like this one more

GroupLotusRenault wrote:Massa blamed Karthikeyan for his crash & Karthikeyan had the best comeback ever "this is coming from a guy who knows he is losing his seat"

That must have hurt!

GroupLotusRenault wrote:Massa blamed Karthikeyan for his crash & Karthikeyan had the best comeback ever "this is coming from a guy who knows he is losing his seat

Sorry for sounding so clichéd, but: owned hard!

Karthikeyan is now my favorite back of the grid driver

S951 wrote:goood result more to come as they learn more on the setup side of things plus the updates they still have in pipeline at the moment I don't see them beating TL unless they find at least 1-1.5 seconds just to match them first if they do one hell of an achievement.

Also got to say in terms of looks of the car compared to TL and MVR I do like this one more

I think that the odds of HRT beating Team Lotus on pure pace alone are receding pretty quickly - firstly, Team Lotus have confirmed that they have established a technical partnership with Williams, allowing them to use their wind tunnel facilities (alongside their existing deal with Aerolab to use their facilities). http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2011/06/ ... -confirms/

And, perhaps far more importantly, Team Lotus have announced an impressive new sponsor - none other than General Electric, who will be sponsoring the team as well as forming a technical partnership. http://www.teamlotus.co.uk/news/2011/ge-announcement
Asides from the fact that this is likely to be a big blow to Bahar's ego - after all, Fernandes is announcing a commercial tie in with what Forbes ranks the 3rd largest corporation in the world - I suspect that this is likely to give Fernandes's outfit a major boost. Not only is the partnership likely to do wonders for the teams finances, but Fernandes's credibility is likely to have increased quite noticeably, both within and outside the paddock.
By comparison, HRT might be striking a number of smaller commercial deals, but for now the car is still mostly devoid of big name sponsors. They are doing well as it is - the technical partnership with Williams and the use of the Mercedes wind tunnel - but they still seem to be a little sluggish on shedding their image of a bunch of being somewhat hapless, even though their recent results haven't been all that bad.

I don't think they will shedding that hapless image anytime soon. Apparently Karthikeyan didn't even know that the team would be putting on slicks for his last stint!

Karthikeyan wrote:However, for whatever reason, the team called me in, put on slicks [without informing me about the change from intermediates to slicks] and from there, I dropped quite a few places.

http://en.espnf1.com/f1/motorsport/story/51588.html

mario wrote:Team Lotus have announced an impressive new sponsor

You certainly have the gift of understatement Mario!

We don't know the terms of the sponsorship, but that is a big fish in a big pond in the business world.

pic of the mighty ebd courtesy of sutton images via f1tech

mario wrote:

S951 wrote:goood result more to come as they learn more on the setup side of things plus the updates they still have in pipeline at the moment I don't see them beating TL unless they find at least 1-1.5 seconds just to match them first if they do one hell of an achievement.

Also got to say in terms of looks of the car compared to TL and MVR I do like this one more

I think that the odds of HRT beating Team Lotus on pure pace alone are receding pretty quickly - firstly, Team Lotus have confirmed that they have established a technical partnership with Williams, allowing them to use their wind tunnel facilities (alongside their existing deal with Aerolab to use their facilities). http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2011/06/ ... -confirms/

And, perhaps far more importantly, Team Lotus have announced an impressive new sponsor - none other than General Electric, who will be sponsoring the team as well as forming a technical partnership. http://www.teamlotus.co.uk/news/2011/ge-announcement
Asides from the fact that this is likely to be a big blow to Bahar's ego - after all, Fernandes is announcing a commercial tie in with what Forbes ranks the 3rd largest corporation in the world - I suspect that this is likely to give Fernandes's outfit a major boost. Not only is the partnership likely to do wonders for the teams finances, but Fernandes's credibility is likely to have increased quite noticeably, both within and outside the paddock.
By comparison, HRT might be striking a number of smaller commercial deals, but for now the car is still mostly devoid of big name sponsors. They are doing well as it is - the technical partnership with Williams and the use of the Mercedes wind tunnel - but they still seem to be a little sluggish on shedding their image of a bunch of being somewhat hapless, even though their recent results haven't been all that bad.

But, reliability. Lotus have obviously not sorted that out ,and unless they fix that problem, they are still under considerable threat of being passed by HRT in the WCC, and the ever-improving F111 with Geoff Willis and Paul White, two brilliant designers, who are constantly working on the car, means HRT can now run close to Lotus in the races, and capitalize whenever either suffers reliability issues. If not for the 12th at Suzuka last year, HRT probably would've been ahead of even them in the WCC. Lotus better fix their reliability first before improving race pace, because, as they say, To finish first, first you must finish.

I must say though, Liuzzi seems to have improved as a driver since joining HRT. He's settled down, and now doesn't crash nearly as much as he used to. Karthikey nhas impressed as well, neither are as crash prone as they used to be. Give them a Red Bull seat right away!!!

Row Man Gross-Gene wrote:

mario wrote:Team Lotus have announced an impressive new sponsor

You certainly have the gift of understatement Mario!

We don't know the terms of the sponsorship, but that is a big fish in a big pond in the business world.

Does that mean the CNN sponsorship is gone? Because GE owns NBC, one of CNN's competitors...

Cynon wrote:

Row Man Gross-Gene wrote:

mario wrote:Team Lotus have announced an impressive new sponsor

You certainly have the gift of understatement Mario!

We don't know the terms of the sponsorship, but that is a big fish in a big pond in the business world.

Does that mean the CNN sponsorship is gone? Because GE owns NBC, one of CNN's competitors...

And CNBC (I presume an offshoot?) sponsors Virgin!

By the way, Peter, I love your optimism!

HRT have done wonders, considering last year no updates last year (dont really the count the one that they had and then had to take of)
but considering last year here they are beating virgin and coming close enough to lotus, Knowing F1(sadly i only watched it since 2004, im 19 ) but from what i know of what ive watched, F1 is very very unpredictable who knows maybe HRT will bring that 1 upgrade get the perfect set up and maybe Lotus will be slow in upgrades or not bring a particularly good one, and HRT might just overleap them i mean who would of predicted we'd have a Lotus twelth in Japan.

As for Virgin , There...Useless, Id call them the HRT's of last year...Glocks reputation hopefully wont be dinted by this and as for D'Ambrosio hes probably going to be the same as Di Grassi, a possible good driver in a utterly hopeless car...thats F1.

I've just realized, since i've come along to F1 Rejects, we all slowly stopped saying "Go home Colin Kolles", and now we don't at all anymore. I feel like i've made such an impact

Go home Colin Kolles

.. i mean stay because your actually doing a better job now :O

Peter wrote:

mario wrote:

S951 wrote:goood result more to come as they learn more on the setup side of things plus the updates they still have in pipeline at the moment I don't see them beating TL unless they find at least 1-1.5 seconds just to match them first if they do one hell of an achievement.

Also got to say in terms of looks of the car compared to TL and MVR I do like this one more

I think that the odds of HRT beating Team Lotus on pure pace alone are receding pretty quickly - firstly, Team Lotus have confirmed that they have established a technical partnership with Williams, allowing them to use their wind tunnel facilities (alongside their existing deal with Aerolab to use their facilities). http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2011/06/ ... -confirms/

And, perhaps far more importantly, Team Lotus have announced an impressive new sponsor - none other than General Electric, who will be sponsoring the team as well as forming a technical partnership. http://www.teamlotus.co.uk/news/2011/ge-announcement
Asides from the fact that this is likely to be a big blow to Bahar's ego - after all, Fernandes is announcing a commercial tie in with what Forbes ranks the 3rd largest corporation in the world - I suspect that this is likely to give Fernandes's outfit a major boost. Not only is the partnership likely to do wonders for the teams finances, but Fernandes's credibility is likely to have increased quite noticeably, both within and outside the paddock.
By comparison, HRT might be striking a number of smaller commercial deals, but for now the car is still mostly devoid of big name sponsors. They are doing well as it is - the technical partnership with Williams and the use of the Mercedes wind tunnel - but they still seem to be a little sluggish on shedding their image of a bunch of being somewhat hapless, even though their recent results haven't been all that bad.

But, reliability. Lotus have obviously not sorted that out ,and unless they fix that problem, they are still under considerable threat of being passed by HRT in the WCC, and the ever-improving F111 with Geoff Willis and Paul White, two brilliant designers, who are constantly working on the car, means HRT can now run close to Lotus in the races, and capitalize whenever either suffers reliability issues. If not for the 12th at Suzuka last year, HRT probably would've been ahead of even them in the WCC. Lotus better fix their reliability first before improving race pace, because, as they say, To finish first, first you must finish.

I must say though, Liuzzi seems to have improved as a driver since joining HRT. He's settled down, and now doesn't crash nearly as much as he used to. Karthikey nhas impressed as well, neither are as crash prone as they used to be. Give them a Red Bull seat right away!!!

No, even without that 12th place in Suzuka, Team Lotus would have comfortably finished ahead of HRT on countback - Team Lotus finished in 13th place three times that season (in Australia, Japan and Korea), whilst the best finishes that HRT had were three 14th places (in Australia, Monaco and Korea).

As for reliability, well, HRT are not significantly more reliable than Team Lotus - HRT have had three mechanical related retirements (Liuzzi's damaged rear wing in Malaysia, with Narain suffering from abnormally high water temperatures, and Liuzzi retired from the Spanish GP with a broken gearbox). Team Lotus have failed to make it to the finish four times, three of which were due to mechanical faults (a water leak for Heikki in Australia, Trulli's clutch in Malaysia and Heikki's driveshaft in Canada), and one due to driver error (Heikki's crash in Spain).

Still, onto positive notes - I agree that HRT do have some very talented designers amongst their technical staff, and in the longer term the use of the Mercedes wind tunnel and technical partnership with Williams should help considerably in the longer term (assuming that the Williams deal will continue even if Williams do switch to a Renault engine - it is known Renault are looking to expand their customer base, and Williams are interested in their engine). Considering that this team was in a total mess a little over a year ago, they have done well to stabilise the team and to gradually start building upon that - though the question is whether HRT can do what Team Lotus has, and attract a fairly large sponsor to their team.
And as pointed out earlier, their reputation has improved from where it was - OK, the double DNQ and not being ready for the start of the season did a fair bit of damage, but a steady stream of finishes means that the public seem to be more sympathetic towards HRT these days.

Cynon wrote:

Row Man Gross-Gene wrote:

mario wrote:Team Lotus have announced an impressive new sponsor

You certainly have the gift of understatement Mario!

We don't know the terms of the sponsorship, but that is a big fish in a big pond in the business world.

Does that mean the CNN sponsorship is gone? Because GE owns NBC, one of CNN's competitors...

Good question - there has been no official announcement from Team Lotus to suggest that the CNN deal will be terminated. It would not be unsurprising if it was, but I guess we won't know for certain until Valencia.
And as for my earlier comment, well, I do concede that perhaps I could have given it a little more emphasis

In terms of organisation, I read in the past that at many times, that it was common that their team crew would normally walk around the paddock in casual wear, because they actually didnt have a team uniform or so.

But they look in much better shape. The next race should be interesting, similar to Canada in terms of being a twisty circuit, and they might have a few extra parts or two in what is their second home race.

Now, Autosport is reporting that HRT are planning on stopping development of the F111 "very soon", in the words of Kolles, instead focussing their resources on their 2012 car. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/92378
Now, no official final date has been set for when development on the F111 will cease, but, given that Virgin Racing (their current rival) has announced that they will stop developing their car after the British GP, it's unlikely that HRT will continue development of their car much beyond then either.
Either way, it's clear that HRT intend to start work at the Mercedes wind tunnel next month - if that is for their 2012 car, then it looks like this time around it should be a much more refined design. I guess that the other reason why they're waiting until then is because the FIA and the TWG should have finalised the exhaust design for 2012 by the British GP (when the restrictions on the blown diffusers kick in).
Speaking of which, it looks like we will see the return of top side mounted exhausts, as used by Virgin Racing on the VR-01 - the original suggestion of extending the exhausts beyond the rear bodywork was discounted because of the possibility that the exhausts could still be used to influence the behaviour of the diffuser. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/92374

However, on a slightly more worrying note, there are some reports in the Spanish media that are reporting that Carabantes had been given a three month suspended jail sentence, along with a fine, for involvement in a fraudulent housing development deal in the late 1990's. Although it is currently unclear what exactly his involvement was (it seems that he was a manager at the company which carried out the fraudulent activities), I hope that this is not a sign of worse to come - because whilst HRT are improving, allegations that their owner may not be entirely honest could do a lot more damage to their chances of finding more sponsors...

mario wrote:However, on a slightly more worrying note, there are some reports in the Spanish media that are reporting that Carabantes had been given a three month suspended jail sentence, along with a fine, for involvement in a fraudulent housing development deal in the late 1990's. Although it is currently unclear what exactly his involvement was (it seems that he was a manager at the company which carried out the fraudulent activities), I hope that this is not a sign of worse to come - because whilst HRT are improving, allegations that their owner may not be entirely honest could do a lot more damage to their chances of finding more sponsors...

Haha superb! It wouldn't be a reject team without someone getting imprisoned for fraudulent activity somewhere along the line would it?

AndreaModa wrote:

mario wrote:However, on a slightly more worrying note, there are some reports in the Spanish media that are reporting that Carabantes had been given a three month suspended jail sentence, along with a fine, for involvement in a fraudulent housing development deal in the late 1990's. Although it is currently unclear what exactly his involvement was (it seems that he was a manager at the company which carried out the fraudulent activities), I hope that this is not a sign of worse to come - because whilst HRT are improving, allegations that their owner may not be entirely honest could do a lot more damage to their chances of finding more sponsors...

Haha superb! It wouldn't be a reject team without someone getting imprisoned for fraudulent activity somewhere along the line would it?

You're only saying this because you're an MVR fan, right?

Cynon wrote:Does that mean the CNN sponsorship is gone? Because GE owns NBC, one of CNN's competitors...

Nope, not anymore. GE spun off NBC and it merged with comcast