Grand Prix Rejects

CoopsII wrote:What? You've got girls on here now?

You have to be quick to notice because it goes something like this:

Day 1- Girl registers and posts for the first time either declaring or implicitly hinting about being female. 10 welcoming replies guaranteed.
Day 2- Girl comes back and posts a couple more times. Another 10 replies for each post she makes.
Day 3- Girl abandons account.

Exceptions: Waris and Alianora.

Peter wrote:

AdrianSutil wrote:I wouldn't say Ricciardo is over-hyped. He did a pretty good job last year at HRT to get rid of the 'over-hype' tag. But Vergne? Two Friday morning runs and he gets a seat he doesn't deserve? So very, very wrong. Alguersuari must be absolutely gutted. I feel really sorry for him. Buemi on the other hand, I wasn't his biggest fan. But both shouldve been given another chance.

Anyway, wasn't the while point of Toro Rosso having young drivers, the opportunity to mature them into Red Bull drivers? Seems like a waste of nearly 3 years.

Ever since the start, Red Bull has been hyping up both Ricciardo and Verne as the next Sebastian Vettels. Tell m that isn't overhyping.

Unless your name is Sebastian Vettel, then your career will not prosper much beyond your Torro Rosso years. The STR drivers are meant to one day graduate to the Red Bull team, but with fingerboy locking out one seat for another 10 years, and Webber not doing poorly enough to make Red Bull replace him, let alone with someone lacking experience. Even then, Red Bull have set high standards it seems for not only keeping your STR seat, but to graduate to a Red Bull seat. The one man to ever do it, Vettel, had to pole and win a race before he was promoted, and you could say that probably wouldn't have happened unless Coulthard retired.

It's just going to be an ultimate failure when you have something like 10 drivers going for 2 seats that may never be available for several years.

In some ways it is fortunate for Red Bull that Coulthard did decide to call it a day when he did so Vettel could graduate to the main team when he did - mind you, I suspect that Marko would not have had any qualms about forcing Coulthard out if he wanted to (given that it is quite likely that he has been responsible for most of the driver changes at Red Bull and Toro Rosso).

DanielPT wrote:

Jeroen Krautmeir wrote:DJ Squire Surprised

And with good reason. I echo most of the replies here in saying that Alguersuari deserved another season. Buemi in my mind was questionable, but quite frankly, disappointing to see both of them out just like that.

And he seems to be a very good lad too from those declarations. I hope someone throws him a lifeline (yes, Caterham, I am looking at you!).

Given the way that Marko seems to have led him to believe that his seat was safe only to suddenly throw him out, and the form that he has shown this year, I do think that perhaps the team might wonder whether they've made the right decision. OK, neither Alguersuari or Buemi were likely to rival Vettel - though there are few drivers in the field at the moment who can - but you would have thought that Red Bull might have liked having a slightly subservient 2nd driver that shouldn't pose a threat to Vettel.
Also, Captain Hammer, it isn't only drivers that Red Bull Racing has taken from Toro Rosso - after the success of Toro Rosso a few years ago, when they beat their parent team, Red Bull Racing also raided the team for some of its engineers and technicians. [It hasn't always been one way though - James Allen mentioned that Toro Rosso's late upswing in performance came after Red Bull had passed on technical information about the design of their diffuser to Toro Rosso...]

mario wrote:

Peter wrote:

AdrianSutil wrote:I wouldn't say Ricciardo is over-hyped. He did a pretty good job last year at HRT to get rid of the 'over-hype' tag. But Vergne? Two Friday morning runs and he gets a seat he doesn't deserve? So very, very wrong. Alguersuari must be absolutely gutted. I feel really sorry for him. Buemi on the other hand, I wasn't his biggest fan. But both shouldve been given another chance.

Anyway, wasn't the while point of Toro Rosso having young drivers, the opportunity to mature them into Red Bull drivers? Seems like a waste of nearly 3 years.

Ever since the start, Red Bull has been hyping up both Ricciardo and Verne as the next Sebastian Vettels. Tell m that isn't overhyping.

Unless your name is Sebastian Vettel, then your career will not prosper much beyond your Torro Rosso years. The STR drivers are meant to one day graduate to the Red Bull team, but with fingerboy locking out one seat for another 10 years, and Webber not doing poorly enough to make Red Bull replace him, let alone with someone lacking experience. Even then, Red Bull have set high standards it seems for not only keeping your STR seat, but to graduate to a Red Bull seat. The one man to ever do it, Vettel, had to pole and win a race before he was promoted, and you could say that probably wouldn't have happened unless Coulthard retired.

It's just going to be an ultimate failure when you have something like 10 drivers going for 2 seats that may never be available for several years.

In some ways it is fortunate for Red Bull that Coulthard did decide to call it a day when he did so Vettel could graduate to the main team when he did - mind you, I suspect that Marko would not have had any qualms about forcing Coulthard out if he wanted to (given that it is quite likely that he has been responsible for most of the driver changes at Red Bull and Toro Rosso).

I wonder if Coulthard was a bit pressed into retirement... It is not as Marko would have any problems in doing it.

I have to say this could be the highest attrition rate for F1 careers at this point, algersuari and buemi was a surprise in my view and not really warranted. They managed to beat Renaults, force Indias, saubers... What more could they really have done? It's not like they had fluke conditions like Vettel did for his maiden victory was it? It also really devalues Toro Rosso in my view, they have to be managed like an independent team, and while I don't doubt there is some crossover in tech from the main outfit, you don't see Force India being ordered to shove the likes of Paffett into their car purely because they have a technological development agreement with Mclaren do you? I really do hope that at least Algersuari stays as on his day he can be very competitive and also as many have said, he is incredibly young, there is so much time for him to develop that I personally would have done everything to keep him on the books. Buemi on the other hand reminds me of Sutill, a decent mid-field driver, so were I in charge of caterham or Williams, I'd try and tap him up. Though at the moment, thanks to Lotus and Toro Rosso, those teams are spoilt for choice in terms of spare talent on the market.

DanielPT wrote:

CoopsII wrote:What? You've got girls on here now?

You have to be quick to notice because it goes something like this:

Day 1- Girl registers and posts for the first time either declaring or implicitly hinting about being female. 10 welcoming replies guaranteed.
Day 2- Girl comes back and posts a couple more times. Another 10 replies for each post she makes.
Day 3- Girl abandons account and dr-baker gets accused of being desperate....

Exceptions: Waris and Alianora.

Fixed.

And Coops - look at the middle link in my signature...

dr-baker wrote:And Coops - look at the middle link in my signature...

Ive been away for a year and you're still where I left you? I thought you were odds-on for the Ecclestone girl?

CoopsII wrote:http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/formula_one/16187987.stm

As Brundle tweeted it earlier "Buemi + Alguersuari have had a magic carpet ride to F1 courtesy of loyal Red Bull millions. They are not the next Vettel or Hamilton."

Well, quite.

I'd expect better from Brundle. Buemi and Alguersuari are doing the best they possibly can with a team chained to the lwoer midfield because Red Bull will never give them the moey or resources to improve beyond that. Why? Because Torro Rosso is not a racing team, it's a driving academy.

I bet you, if you put either Jaime or Buemi in a McLaren, neither would be much worse than Button, if at all. I'd be much less upset if only Ricciardo replaced one of the drivers, but Verne? The fact that they added Verne to the lineup proves my point even more. The man driver the car twice and gets a race seat? bathplug.

CoopsII wrote:

dr-baker wrote:And Coops - look at the middle link in my signature...

Ive been away for a year and you're still where I left you? I thought you were odds-on for the Ecclestone girl?

Sadly, I haven't moved on from my rejectful attempts at seductions...

I feel the need to seriously vent my anger at Toro Rosso. I thought that both Buemi, and even more so Alguersuari matured in 2011. Towards the end of the season they were consistently in the hunt for points, even after poor qualifying sessions. I had Alguersuari down as Webber's eventual replacement at Red Bull; someone who probably couldn't threaten Vettel often but would play the no. 2 role very well. Does everyone at Toro Rosso expect their drivers to be at Sebastian Vettel levels? Do they expect wins every now and then? Don't get me wrong, it's not that I don't think Vergne or Ricciardo deserve a seat (in fact, I'm glad Ricciardo is driving again in 2012), but Buemi and Alguersuari deserves seats as well. Red Bull treat a lot of their drivers like crap.

Peter wrote:

CoopsII wrote:http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/formula_one/16187987.stm

As Brundle tweeted it earlier "Buemi + Alguersuari have had a magic carpet ride to F1 courtesy of loyal Red Bull millions. They are not the next Vettel or Hamilton."

Well, quite.

I'd expect better from Brundle. Buemi and Alguersuari are doing the best they possibly can with a team chained to the lwoer midfield because Red Bull will never give them the moey or resources to improve beyond that. Why? Because Torro Rosso is not a racing team, it's a driving academy.

I bet you, if you put either Jaime or Buemi in a McLaren, neither would be much worse than Button, if at all. I'd be much less upset if only Ricciardo replaced one of the drivers, but Verne? The fact that they added Verne to the lineup proves my point even more. The man driver the car twice and gets a race seat? bathplug.

I'm sorry guys but I disagree with all of you. Granted it was harsh; Saurus was an F3 champion at 18, and Buemi was THE unluckiest driver this year; Edd Straw says as much in this weeks Autosport. But Vergne and Riccairdo are much brighter prospects and have been consistent throughout the junior formulae; Alguersuari was dreadful in 3.5 (thrashed by Bertrand Baguette and even beaten in the final standings by Fairuz Fauzy!) Am I the only one on the forum who really doesn't like Alguersuari? Meh. Buemi was also pretty patchy in the junior formulae, but was an awesome qualifier (Saurus only beat him 6 times this year) and overtook more cars than anyone all year. They were just reaching their peaks, and now TR have to start again with essentially a team of rookies.

However, these 2 new guys are class. Ricciardo: won British F3 in 2009 in his rookie year (Vergne did the same in 2010). Ricciardo has won on the streets of Monaco every time the FR3.5 series went there. He was 2nd in 2010, and Vergne too only narrowly lost the title this year. You forget guys that Alguersuari had only driven in a straight line before debuting in 2009; Vergne topped every single day in the rookie tests, granted in the fastest car, but he is genuinely good. This could be a death match for Webber's seat, and should be THE most interesting intra-team battle.

Hope Buemi and Alguersuari get seats worthy of their talents. Scores to be settled.

I actually kind of miss the dullness of this off-season - it meant Petrov and DJ Squiresaurus still had seats.

I bet H.R.T are regretting signing oldie La Rosa now, with all the brilliant alternatives looking for drives now.

I am disgusted with STR's decision. I always believed that either Buemi or Alguersuari would replace Webber one day. Like there was a competition between the two.
Alguersuari showed promise this year. I'm sad for Buemi too because I read that he heard the news while he was at the Red Bull simulator in Milton Keynes. Talk about a kick in the balls.

Minardi Man wrote:I bet H.R.T are regretting signing oldie La Rosa now, with all the brilliant alternatives looking for drives now.

Imagine HRT signing Buemi and Alguersuari!!

Minardi Man wrote:I bet H.R.T are regretting signing oldie La Rosa now, with all the brilliant alternatives looking for drives now.

If HRT are regretting it, then Williams must feel like absolute clowns because as stated on this forum several times, they only had to "consider" Maldonado for a seat to get the PDVSA money. Now they can only get one of the available drivers on the market rather than potentially snare 2 of them.

Junior Formulae success doesn't necessarily translate to Formula 1 success. Drivers have been mighty in the lower class, but when promoted to F1 have been rubbish, Nelson Piquet for example, while, on the other hand, drivers who have been average in the lower formulae at best, have ricked the F1 world, for example, Kamui Kobayashi. The cars may be to one spec, but they may still very well suit some drivers more than others.

Peter wrote:

CoopsII wrote:http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/formula_one/16187987.stm

As Brundle tweeted it earlier "Buemi + Alguersuari have had a magic carpet ride to F1 courtesy of loyal Red Bull millions. They are not the next Vettel or Hamilton."

Well, quite.

I'd expect better from Brundle. Buemi and Alguersuari are doing the best they possibly can with a team chained to the lwoer midfield because Red Bull will never give them the moey or resources to improve beyond that. Why? Because Torro Rosso is not a racing team, it's a driving academy.

I should really posted his next tweet about this regarding data comparison with other Red Bull F1 drivers. I think you're right; they acheived the limit that Toro Rosso could achieve with them in the car, but Red Bull obviously think when comparing the data theres scope for more with another set of drivers. You'd have to agree they've had a good crack at improving their reputations.

Interesting tweet from @GrandPrixDiary:

Force India. The world waits with (nearly) baited breath. Hulkenberg, as sure as Christmas but will it be di Resta or di Roubles?

I don't think there's too much too it - "di Rubles" sounds like it was added for the sake of a gag.

I can imagine we might see a higher than normal rate of mid-season driver replacements, with all the experienced young drivers knocking about with not much to do.

fjackdaw wrote:I can imagine we might see a higher than normal rate of mid-season driver replacements, with all the experienced young drivers knocking about with not much to do.

Juso long as we don't get up to 1994-levels of driver changes... Only 2 GPs that year had the same entry list as the race before...

http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2011/12/ ... oes-sutil/

According to this (& there are those who won't want to believe it) , it's di Resta & Hulk at FI for 2012

Other sources write it official, as well - this is no surprise.

I really hope Sutil gets that seat at Williams.

eagleash wrote:http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2011/12/16/out-goes-sutil/

According to this (& there are those who won't want to believe it) , it's di Resta & Hulk at FI for 2012

F1Fanatic also reports on this (sorry eagleash). It is the expected thing (at last) but also harsh on Sutil who was still their top driver. I fancy Sutil on Williams. It would be good for both. Barrichello could move to HRT and maybe Petrov or The Saurus to Caterham. We will see soon enough.

DanielPT wrote:

eagleash wrote:http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2011/12/16/out-goes-sutil/

According to this (& there are those who won't want to believe it) , it's di Resta & Hulk at FI for 2012

F1Fanatic also reports on this (sorry eagleash). It is the expected thing (at last) but also harsh on Sutil who was still their top driver. I fancy Sutil on Williams. It would be good for both. Barrichello could move to HRT and maybe Petrov or The Saurus to Caterham. We will see soon enough.

Sutil at Williams would be quite good probably. Caterham would have to part with Kova or Trulli, who, despite whatever opinion one might have of him does have a contract for 2012. (If that means anything). Rubens sorry to say I think really should have retired at Brazil....home race, emotional goodbye.

Lots of prospects in the (expected) midfield next year - Kobayashi, Perez, Ricciardo, JEV, Hulkenberg, Di Resta and Grosjean.

Although I'm kinda sad that Sutil is no longer at Force India, I'm glad Hulkenberg's got a seat. I reckon he deserves a place, and he's one of the drivers who spends loads of time at the factory. Even when he was a reserve he spent more time at the factory than Sutil or di Resta. So I'm told.

jpm wrote:However, these 2 new guys are class. Ricciardo: won British F3 in 2009 in his rookie year (Vergne did the same in 2010). Ricciardo has won on the streets of Monaco every time the FR3.5 series went there. He was 2nd in 2010, and Vergne too only narrowly lost the title this year. You forget guys that Alguersuari had only driven in a straight line before debuting in 2009; Vergne topped every single day in the rookie tests, granted in the fastest car, but he is genuinely good. This could be a death match for Webber's seat, and should be THE most interesting intra-team battle.

Hope Buemi and Alguersuari get seats worthy of their talents. Scores to be settled.

Alguersuari won F3 in his rookie season too, and dropped off in FR3.5 because he was dovetailing it with the TR seat in the latter half of '09. I still think he's definitely better than Buemi.

I do worry for Barrichello that Sutil is now going to slip into his seat at Williams. But on the other hand, I do think Sutil does deserve a drive, and Barrichello has had a long career now.

14 Hundred Hours wrote:he's one of the drivers who spends loads of time at the factory

What the hell was he going to do otherwise? It's not like he spent 2011 racing ...

Too bad about Sutil. I thought he would be to Force India what Pierluigi Martini was to Minardi. But a driver with his skill should get another drive easily. I'd like him to go to a higher team, but Barrichello's days are over, so...
And with all these drivers without a job, I agree that HRT must now regret hiring de la Rosa

I don't think they regret de la Rosa at all. He's an excellent test driver, and could probably do more work - and do it faster - on the F112 (and the F113) than anybody else. He was reserve at McLaren in 2009, before racing for Sauber in 2010. I don't think it is any coincidence that Sauber was the first team to come up with a passive F-duct, and they did a pretty good job of it, too. Pedro de la Rosa evidently understood enough of the concept to help Sauber integrate their own into the C29 chassis, adapting it around the survival cell (which could not be changed). If anybody can aid Hispania, it's de la Rosa.

What the team really need now is a fast driver to fill the second seat. De la Rosa can develop the car; they'll just need someone to capitalise on its potential. The problem is that they'll probably need a pay driver as well.

Captain Hammer wrote:I don't think they regret de la Rosa at all. He's an excellent test driver, and could probably do more work - and do it faster - on the F112 (and the F113) than anybody else. He was reserve at McLaren in 2009, before racing for Sauber in 2010. I don't think it is any coincidence that Sauber was the first team to come up with a passive F-duct, and they did a pretty good job of it, too. Pedro de la Rosa evidently understood enough of the concept to help Sauber integrate their own into the C29 chassis, adapting it around the survival cell (which could not be changed). If anybody can aid Hispania, it's de la Rosa.

What the team really need now is a fast driver to fill the second seat. De la Rosa can develop the car; they'll just need someone to capitalise on its potential. The problem is that they'll probably need a pay driver as well.

Petrov?

Maybe, but his bank balance means that pretty much any seat that is available (like the second HRT) or could potentially be available (like Trulli's) is open to him. HRT would have to make a very strong case to him to tempt him over.

They're also said to be talking to Giedo van der Garde.

Captain Hammer wrote:

14 Hundred Hours wrote:he's one of the drivers who spends loads of time at the factory

What the hell was he going to do otherwise? It's not like he spent 2011 racing ...

But he did spend the same amount of time as Sutil and di Resta going to all the races and training... My point was that Hulkenberg seemed to spend more time at the factory and get on better with the mechanics than the other two. It's not the only reason why I think he deserves a seat, but I think it's a good thing for a driver to do.

Force India are retarded for getting rid of Sutil

I honestly think if Force India were so desperate to give Hulkenberg a race seat, I think they should have got rid of Di Resta rather than Sutil (and I even say that as a Brit!).

The number of good drivers out on their earholes is really alarming me.

James1978 wrote:I honestly think if Force India were so desperate to give Hulkenberg a race seat, I think they should have got rid of Di Resta rather than Sutil

But there is no guarantee they would be able to take Hulkenberg, then. When Hulkenberg split with manager Willi Weber, Weber said that Virgin had offered them a contract, but Hulkenberg turned it down. He and Weber felt that being partnered with Glock would be a bad idea, because if Glock beat Hulkenberg, then it would hurt Hulkenberg's future prospects. It's possible that Hulkenberg would feel the same way about partnering Sutil, though I very much doubt that he would have the luxury of rejecting the offer of a full-time drive because it would mean another year out of the sport, which would potentially do more damage to his career.

Captain Hammer wrote:

James1978 wrote:I honestly think if Force India were so desperate to give Hulkenberg a race seat, I think they should have got rid of Di Resta rather than Sutil

But there is no guarantee they would be able to take Hulkenberg, then. When Hulkenberg split with manager Willi Weber, Weber said that Virgin had offered them a contract, but Hulkenberg turned it down. He and Weber felt that being partnered with Glock would be a bad idea, because if Glock beat Hulkenberg, then it would hurt Hulkenberg's future prospects. It's possible that Hulkenberg would feel the same way about partnering Sutil, though I very much doubt that he would have the luxury of rejecting the offer of a full-time drive because it would mean another year out of the sport, which would potentially do more damage to his career.

Especially at a time when the second Force India seat is probably the best he's going to get anyway. I mean, no matter how desperate they are, I'ld imagine that Williams wouldn't want him back in a hurry when they have so many drivers to choose from.

I think it's much simpler than that - if Williams offered Hulkenberg a seat, he would probably turn it down because they're not very competitive. That's what rubs me the wrong way about Hulkenberg: he seems to be demanding the most competitive car available. And while every driver has the right to expect that, Hulkenberg does seem to give the impression that he feels certain teams are beneath him. In the same interview where he revealed Virgin had approached them, Willi Weber said that Hispania had also come knocking, but Hulkenberg did not want to be driving such an uncompetitive car. Compare that to the likes of di Grassi and d'Ambrosio and Pic and van der Garde who are taking whatever they can get (or trying to get whatever they can find) and are making the most of it. Sure, d'Ambrosio is trundling around three seconds off the pace, but not once has he complained about it. And the fact that he was so close to Timo Glock on such a regular basis means that he certainly deserved being considered for a 2012 drive. But the way Hulkenberg turns his nose up at certain seats does not endear him to me in the slightest.

Doesn't matter how endearing he is, he has got promise, and FI obviously are planning for the long term with two young charging drivers.

So who's going to go where?
I think williams will have to go for Sutil as their best available option, Petrov or Senna could end up at H.R.T (depending on how much clout H.R.T have in bargaining considering their strong looking prospects for 2012) and I could see Caterham trying to oust Trulli, probably for Algusaurus.