Grand Prix Rejects

go_Rubens wrote:

roblomas52 wrote:

go_Rubens wrote:If Nissan were to believe that they could win in such a short timeframe and pull out if they don't, they'd be nuts. It's already nuts that they go out saying they'll win the 2016 Le Mans 24 Hours. All they are setting up for in my eyes are a "failure" where they'll ruin their reputation by simply expecting too much. It feels as if the team is being driven by an oversized ego.

Meanwhile, the test day has been said and done, and Toyota, based on the results, must be the favorites to win. They have the pace. They have the fuel efficiency. They have the drivers. They have the reliability. My bet is on the reject trio. Audi look competitive, but only for a podium. Porsche look like they need straight line speed, which may be why they're not so close to Toyota as they have been along with Audi.

The 1000bhp of the TS040 seems to really help them here.

It's only a mere 250bhp more than the Porsche

Yeah, that partially explains why Porsche weren't the fastest in testing and were a couple of seconds off. It just doesn't have the power to compete with Toyota. I don't think Audi does either.

I read in autosports preview that Audi are 200bhp down on the others during the first 4-5 seconds on each straight. Even though there chassis is good enough to make up time in the permanent section of the track, it still is nowhere near enough for the Ingolstadt firm. In fact, the real class to watch at Le Mans this year IMO is the LMP2 class. 4 types of chassis (Morgan, Ligier, Zytek and Oreca), 3 different engines (Judd/BMW, Nissan and Honda) and best of all, Ex Minardi tester Sergey Zlobin.

ah, yes the pitfalls of using bigger turbos than last year. all the power manifests itself up top and by that time, the toyotas have passed them and entered mulsanne corner already

go_Rubens wrote:Yeah, that partially explains why Porsche weren't the fastest in testing and were a couple of seconds off. It just doesn't have the power to compete with Toyota. I don't think Audi does either.

Which is interesting as, officially, Toyota and Porsche are both in the same category - the 6MJ hybrid power system - but whilst Porsche only say that their system produces ">250bhp", the Toyota hybrid power system is substantially more powerful (the petrol engines themselves produce a similar amount of power).

roblomas52 wrote:I read in autosports preview that Audi are 200bhp down on the others during the first 4-5 seconds on each straight. Even though there chassis is good enough to make up time in the permanent section of the track, it still is nowhere near enough for the Ingolstadt firm. In fact, the real class to watch at Le Mans this year IMO is the LMP2 class. 4 types of chassis (Morgan, Ligier, Zytek and Oreca), 3 different engines (Judd/BMW, Nissan and Honda) and best of all, Ex Minardi tester Sergey Zlobin.

Part of that seems to be because Audi originally developed their car around a smaller capacity unit (2MJ), reasoning that the weight penalty (in terms of gross weight and the sub optimal weight distribution) exceeded the benefits of a more powerful system at most circuits, with Le Mans being the one exception to the rule.

However, the ACO did also make a relatively late modification to the power allowance of each car per lap - the petrol powered cars were allowed to use slightly more fuel per lap whilst Audi were forced to slightly turn down the fuel flow rate on their car.
If they had known such a change was coming up, it is possible that they would have opted for a more powerful hybrid power unit than they currently have - they were fairly convinced that, under the original regulations, Toyota and Porsche could only match them if they used the full 8MJ allowance. Since both Toyota and Porsche are in the 6MJ category, Audi probably assumed they'd have the upper hand - until the ACO shifted their position slightly to make the petrol powered cars more competitive.

My favourite weekend of the year coming up! Fridge fully stocked, Monday booked off work for obligatory recovery time, I never managed to watch the full 24 hours in one sitting last year as sleep intervened but was able to watch the remainder on Sky+ delay, will try to at least get a little bit further into the Saturday night (well, Sunday morning) this year before the semi-inevitable shut-eye.

As far as the winner goes a big part of me finds it hard to write off Audi even if Toyota are clear favourites, could be wrong but can't wait to find out either way.

Bathplug. I hope Duval's okay, the Audi's demolished the fencing at the Porsche Curves.

Seeing on other forums that he's in an ambulance and the car on the back of a truck already, but haven't found any word on his condition. Hopefully the whole "more wrecked a car is the more energy has been dissipated" etc. applies here.

He is ok. According to Dr. Ulrich, he is conscient and speaking. So, very good news. That's a big smash, and the Audi just keep getting very big crashes every year.

Great to hear he is okay, and a testament to the car that he was able to survive relatively unscathed.

The questions now are, can Audi get a new car built from the ground up, and will Loic be able to race, and if not, who will replace him?

AndreaModa wrote:Great to hear he is okay, and a testament to the car that he was able to survive relatively unscathed.

The questions now are, can Audi get a new car built from the ground up, and will Loic be able to race, and if not, who will replace him?

I would not be surprised if Duval does not race in the end - the force with which he has struck the barriers likely to be high, such that the medical centre might want to keep him under observation for an extended period of time in case of subsequent complications. If Audi can ready another car, it's possible that they might have to reduce their crew down to just di Grassi and Kristensen - I think that, a few years ago, one of the LMP2 teams ran with just two drivers when one of the drivers had to withdraw after the qualifying sessions due to ill health.

East Londoner wrote:

Bathplug. I hope Duval's okay, the Audi's demolished the fencing at the Porsche Curves.

The damage to the fencing is almost as worrying as the damage to the car - it begs the question of how much protection those fences really do provide to the marshals on the other side of the fence as well as what protection they provide to the drivers.

mario wrote:

AndreaModa wrote:Great to hear he is okay, and a testament to the car that he was able to survive relatively unscathed.

The questions now are, can Audi get a new car built from the ground up, and will Loic be able to race, and if not, who will replace him?

I would not be surprised if Duval does not race in the end - the force with which he has struck the barriers likely to be high, such that the medical centre might want to keep him under observation for an extended period of time in case of subsequent complications. If Audi can ready another car, it's possible that they might have to reduce their crew down to just di Grassi and Kristensen - I think that, a few years ago, one of the LMP2 teams ran with just two drivers when one of the drivers had to withdraw after the qualifying sessions due to ill health.

I initially thought of Dindo Capello after he drove the car in the new advert where he did some donuts outside of the Porsche HQ.

Wonder if they would/could get Alan McNish as a late-minute stand-in? Or if he would wish to?

mario wrote:

East Londoner wrote:

Bathplug. I hope Duval's okay, the Audi's demolished the fencing at the Porsche Curves.

The damage to the fencing is almost as worrying as the damage to the car - it begs the question of how much protection those fences really do provide to the marshals on the other side of the fence as well as what protection they provide to the drivers.

I think motorsport needs to start look for a safer alternative for fencing, because in some recent accidents, it does seem to be something of a liability - Dario Franchitti's career-ending crash last year, and Dan Wheldon's fatal crash come to mind.

Salamander wrote: Dario Franchitti's career-ending crash last year, and Dan Wheldon's fatal crash come to mind.

And Kenny Brack.




I wonder what the marshall said?! Scary.

mario wrote:

East Londoner wrote:

Bathplug. I hope Duval's okay, the Audi's demolished the fencing at the Porsche Curves.

The damage to the fencing is almost as worrying as the damage to the car - it begs the question of how much protection those fences really do provide to the marshals on the other side of the fence as well as what protection they provide to the drivers.

Having seen some more images, methinks the fence came down as a result of the debris from the Audi.
EDIT: here is the video where I saw those images.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1guuj_dmnk

Sorry for the double post everyone but Duval is not taking part at Le Mans, he is being replaced by Marc Gene.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/114403

Salamander wrote:I think motorsport needs to start look for a safer alternative for fencing, because in some recent accidents, it does seem to be something of a liability - Dario Franchitti's career-ending crash last year, and Dan Wheldon's fatal crash come to mind.

I agree. I've heard that the roof of the car hit the fence first, which would have ended much worse in an open-top car.

How nobody was killed here is incredible. I hate to imagine what would have happened in an open cockpit car...

Shadaza wrote:

How nobody was killed here is incredible. I hate to imagine what would have happened in an open cockpit car...

And to think Duval escaped with only a few cuts and bruises in just incredible.

roblomas52 wrote:

Shadaza wrote:

How nobody was killed here is incredible. I hate to imagine what would have happened in an open cockpit car...

And to think Duval escaped with only a few cuts and bruises in just incredible.

And thankfully no spectators or marshalls appear to be getting hurt either.

And another entry withdraws due to a crash. When was the last time the entry list was below 55? How big a deal is a not-full entry list come the start of the race? I imagine one or two short due to crash damage is manageable, but this list, the reserve list was exhausted with no more available, if I remember correctly?

And there's been another shunt at the Porsche Curves. James Calado in the GTE Ferrari has gone off. No news at all at the minute about him or the car.

dr-baker wrote:

roblomas52 wrote:

Shadaza wrote:

How nobody was killed here is incredible. I hate to imagine what would have happened in an open cockpit car...

And to think Duval escaped with only a few cuts and bruises in just incredible.

And thankfully no spectators or marshalls appear to be getting hurt either.

And another entry withdraws due to a crash. When was the last time the entry list was below 55? How big a deal is a not-full entry list come the start of the race? I imagine one or two short due to crash damage is manageable, but this list, the reserve list was exhausted with no more available, if I remember correctly?

We are certainly lucky that nobody has been severely harmed during these crashes, but it is worrying that there have been several major accidents in the past few days - I only hope that everybody's luck continues to hold for the race.

dr-baker, the ACO exhausted its reserves list quite some time ago - technically they had already exhausted their list of reserve teams before Strakka withdrew, but were able to scramble a last minute additional entrant into the GT category to make up the numbers.

Di Grassi prangs the #1 Audi and, whilst crawling back to the pits, moves slightly to the left, right into the path of the fast approaching #29 Pegasus car, which has to take avoiding action, and ends up smacking the barriers hard, front end first. That's FOUR wrecked cars now.

What is going on this year?

East Londoner wrote:Di Grassi prangs the #1 Audi and, whilst crawling back to the pits, moves slightly to the left, right into the path of the fast approaching #29 Pegasus car, which has to take avoiding action, and ends up smacking the barriers hard, front end first. That's FOUR wrecked cars now.

What is going on this year?

Someone secretly swaps the original drivers with Maldonado, Grosjean, de Cesaris, Cecotto Jr, Roda, and Megumi.

Seriously though, apparently the ACO stated that Audi will not be penalized for bringing replacement chassis for the #1 R18.

mario wrote:dr-baker, the ACO exhausted its reserves list quite some time ago - technically they had already exhausted their list of reserve teams before Strakka withdrew, but were able to scramble a last minute additional entrant into the GT category to make up the numbers.

That's what I thought, Mario. I don't remember there being such a problem with getting a full grid to commit to the race before. Indy has always managed a full 33-car grid in recent years, even if there had only been 33 entries, as per this year. Last-minute withdrawals (as per the past day or two due to accidents) I can understand, but fully exhausting the reserve list some time before the race? Normally, if you were last reserve, would you not normally assume that that meant you had next-to-zero chance of being there?

(Oh, and I do hope and pray for the safety of all the drivers involved in accidents, hoping for speedy recoveries.)

And another big crash at Le Mans, this time for Chandok at Indianapolis. Way too many crashes in this last two days. I'm just hoping that no serious crashes happen in the race.

Miguel98 wrote:And another big crash at Le Mans, this time for Chandok at Indianapolis. Way too many crashes in this last two days. I'm just hoping that no serious crashes happen in the race.

Not to mention that Calado has been ruled out after he crashed the AF Corse Ferrari. The #99 Aston has been withdrawn after a huge crash. I just hope that there are no more huge crashes.

can the crashes be pinned down to anything? any telemetry from them? track conditions? a particular corner? driver error?

nome66 wrote:can the crashes be pinned down to anything? any telemetry from them? track conditions? a particular corner? driver error?

They seem to be struggling to determine the cause of some of the crashes - Audi are still at a loss to explain what happened to Duval (Autosport have noted that there was a similar incident there when Gene ran wide over the grass strip at the edge of the corner in 2008 and the car was launched into the air, so driver error is one possible cause).
Similarly, Rees, the driver of the #99 Aston Martin car, is unsure what happened - he was momentarily knocked out during the crash and so cannot clearly recall what happened. As for the telemetry, that shows that the car suddenly oversteered during the corner but doesn't seem to explain why that happened.

I'm sure Mark Webber is glad the Porsches are not getting airbourne...

Personally, I think the track itself could be at fault here because I think the cars may be starting to outstrip the trackside safety. Now as far back as 1970, there were plans to redesign the track and here are a couple of them.

1970


1994


I have even done a couple of my own

Proposal 1
http://www.gmap-pedometer.com?r=6337080

Proposal 2. The fully permanent one
http://www.gmap-pedometer.com?r=6337088

The point I am making here is that the cars might be too quick for the circuit to cope with. There must be a compromise.

First, the cars were even quicker in 2008-2010 than they are today. Not only the LMP1 cars were faster than today, but also the GT1 cars were faster than today's GTE cars. Then I don't think that the track needs a massive redesign. The layout isn't particularily dangerous. The Mulsanne straight is interrupted in three segments, which are comparable to the straights at Monza or old Hockenheim. The Bugatti circuit part is up to modern safety standards. The debatable parts are the kink at Indianapolis and the Porsche Curves. In the case of Indianapolis, adding a bit more runoff should be no problem. The Porsche Curves are the big problem. Adding more runoff is difficult without moving lots of earth, because of the elevation changes in this section. But it can be done, like at Spa.

More than the layout, a problem at Le Mans are the barriers. Simonsen's accident last year ended tragic because they put a barrier directly in front of the trees. The barriers at Tertre Rouge have changed this year, as the barrier has been moved away from the trees, and tyres have been added. Meanwhile, at the Porsche Curves,they still use only guardrails or even concrete walls as a barrier. I can't understand why those haven't been replaced by SAFER Barriers yet.

Well, that's not exactly the best way to spend your 25th birthday.

Get well soon James. His crash must have been much bigger than we originally thought.

pi314159 wrote:First, the cars were even quicker in 2008-2010 than they are today. Not only the LMP1 cars were faster than today, but also the GT1 cars were faster than today's GTE cars. Then I don't think that the track needs a massive redesign. The layout isn't particularily dangerous. The Mulsanne straight is interrupted in three segments, which are comparable to the straights at Monza or old Hockenheim. The Bugatti circuit part is up to modern safety standards. The debatable parts are the kink at Indianapolis and the Porsche Curves. In the case of Indianapolis, adding a bit more runoff should be no problem. The Porsche Curves are the big problem. Adding more runoff is difficult without moving lots of earth, because of the elevation changes in this section. But it can be done, like at Spa.

More than the layout, a problem at Le Mans are the barriers. Simonsen's accident last year ended tragic because they put a barrier directly in front of the trees. The barriers at Tertre Rouge have changed this year, as the barrier has been moved away from the trees, and tyres have been added. Meanwhile, at the Porsche Curves,they still use only guardrails or even concrete walls as a barrier. I can't understand why those haven't been replaced by SAFER Barriers yet.

I think that there are a couple of issues with the SAFER barrier design that make it less attractive for Le Mans, one of which is the speed with which it can be rebuilt after an impact. Because the SAFER barrier is designed to partially crush and deform in order to dissipate energy during a crash, the barrier has to be rebuilt with new components after a crash - whilst the barrier worked well to protect Perez in his crash in Monaco, there were concerns that a relative lengthy section of the barrier had to be replaced afterwards (and there was a question over how effective the barrier would have been if there had been a second crash after the barrier had been repaired).

That said, the 2014 cars are actually approaching the sort of speeds that they were attaining in 2008-2010 - Audi were clocked at 344kph in 2010 during qualifying, whilst this year Toyota has been clocked at 339kph in the traps (though it seems the onboard telemetry data presented on the TV feed suggested Toyota were actually hitting 343kph on the straights). In terms of lap time, they're currently about two seconds a lap off the 2010 pace - however, considering that the practise sessions have been heavily disrupted due to the numerous accidents, you could potentially have shaved a few tenths off that with cleaner runs.

On another note, it seems that there is a little bit of doubt over another car - this time, it is the #79 ProSpeed Porsche entry. Having crashed during the first qualifying session, Bret Curtis has been ruled out on medical ground - now, whilst the team are currently building up their spare chassis, they have still not received permission to enter their new chassis, nor has their proposed driver change (Sebastien Crubile, who competed at Le Mans last year) been agreed to.
The alternative solution would be to run with the two remaining drivers, Bleekemolen and MacNeil - however, because the #79 car is entered into the GTE Am category, the team has to run at least one 'bronze' (i.e. amateur) driver. Because Bleekemolen and MacNeil are both in higher categories given they are professional racing drivers, they wouldn't be allowed to compete in the GTE Am category - so unless the ACO agrees to allow the team to run Crubile or allows ProSpeed to move into the GTE Pro category, ProSpeed might have to withdraw their entry. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/114435

Good News.
The #79 Porsche is racing but in the GTE Pro class.

roblomas52 wrote:Good News.
The #79 Porsche is racing but in the GTE Pro class.

They are indeed now competing in the GTE Pro category, though the stewards have rejected the request from ProSpeed to use Sebastien Crubile - although Sebastian raced at Le Mans last year and is currently active in the European Le Mans Series (so hardly a rookie driver), the stewards will not allow him to compete because he would not be able to complete any laps at night before the start of the race. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/114437

And it took about 30 minutes for one of the Porsche's to encounter problems. Stuck on the pit limiter speed.

The ZEOD lasted all of 24 minutes before terminally breaking down. Oh dear.

And we've got two wrecked LMP1s, the #3 Audi and the #8 Toyota collided in the rain. Loads of damage to both.

wow that rain is just murdering the mulsanne straight right now jeez!

The #20 Porsche of Bernhard, Hartley and the great Mark Webber is leading.