Grand Prix Rejects

watka wrote:I hate this current trend for registering the team in a certain country just because of the sponsors or the owners. If the workforce and facilities are in Britain, the team is British as far as I'm concerned.

But the team is owned and operated by the Austrians. The only reason why the team is based in England is because they're occupying the old Jaguar facilities. Most teams are based in England because Heathrow is the single most accessibe point on the fact of the earth. The British have no claim to the team or its success. You might as well say that Mark Webber is a British driver because he lives in England. I'm sorry, but to claim that Red Bull's success should be ackownledged with the British anthem is pretty damned arrogant of you.

This wrote:virgin actually uses the licence of british virgin islands

Really? There is a national motorsport authority there to issue the licence? If so, then

Captain Hammer wrote:The British have no claim to the team or its success.

So let's just forget about the roles of Christian Horner, Adrian Newey and all the other designers and engineers who work there then? They don't matter? They don't play as much of a role as the people that simply turn up with the money? OK. Sack all the Brits who work for them and see what happens to the team then.

This wrote:virgin actually uses the licence of british virgin islands

I knew there was something going on very nasty with British people...

dr-baker wrote:

This wrote:virgin actually uses the licence of british virgin islands

So let's just forget about the roles of Christian Horner, Adrian Newey and all the other designers and engineers who work there then? They don't matter? They don't play as much of a role as the people that simply turn up with the money? OK. Sack all the Brits who work for them and see what happens to the team then.

So, if I start a F1-team, hire only icelandic guys, but have the facilities for "Myrvold's F1 madness" in England, should it be english because it is based in England, Icelandic because of the guys who work there, or Norwegian, because, after all, without me, there wouldn't be a team?

Myrvold wrote:

dr-baker wrote:

This wrote:virgin actually uses the licence of british virgin islands

So let's just forget about the roles of Christian Horner, Adrian Newey and all the other designers and engineers who work there then? They don't matter? They don't play as much of a role as the people that simply turn up with the money? OK. Sack all the Brits who work for them and see what happens to the team then.

So, if I start a F1-team, hire only icelandic guys, but have the facilities for "Myrvold's F1 madness" in England, should it be english because it is based in England, Icelandic because of the guys who work there, or Norwegian, because, after all, without me, there wouldn't be a team?

Not even being EU-registered would quite cover that, would it?

Frankly, I don't see why it matters where a team is registered. If Red Bull wants to call itself Austrian, that's their business. When they win a race, nobody cheers for them because they're supposedly 'Austrian', people cheer for them because they like Red Bull and/or their driver(s).

dr-baker wrote:

Myrvold wrote:

dr-baker wrote:So let's just forget about the roles of Christian Horner, Adrian Newey and all the other designers and engineers who work there then? They don't matter? They don't play as much of a role as the people that simply turn up with the money? OK. Sack all the Brits who work for them and see what happens to the team then.

So, if I start a F1-team, hire only icelandic guys, but have the facilities for "Myrvold's F1 madness" in England, should it be english because it is based in England, Icelandic because of the guys who work there, or Norwegian, because, after all, without me, there wouldn't be a team?

Not even being EU-registered would quite cover that, would it?

Nope, we Norwegians are not a member of EU

However, I would've raced with norwegian license.
Does anyone know if Team Lotus is applying for British license in 2011, or if it stays malaysian?

dr-baker wrote:So let's just forget about the roles of Christian Horner, Adrian Newey and all the other designers and engineers who work there then? They don't matter? They don't play as much of a role as the people that simply turn up with the money? OK. Sack all the Brits who work for them and see what happens to the team then.

Christian Horner and Adrian Newey are hired by the Austrians who own and manage the team, to run the team and build a car for the team, owned and operated by Austrians. If Red Bull should be called British because of Horner and Newey's role in the team, then let's call Ferrari British because of Rob Smedley.

Peter wrote:

dr-baker wrote:So let's just forget about the roles of Christian Horner, Adrian Newey and all the other designers and engineers who work there then? They don't matter? They don't play as much of a role as the people that simply turn up with the money? OK. Sack all the Brits who work for them and see what happens to the team then.

Christian Horner and Adrian Newey are hired by the Austrians who own and manage the team, to run the team and build a car for the team, owned and operated by Austrians. If Red Bull should be called British because of Horner and Newey's role in the team, then let's call Ferrari British because of Rob Smedley.

Owned and operated are different things here surely? Mateschitz and his cronies may make some of the big decisions, but they sure as hell don't make the team tick over on a race weekend (that is unless they tell Horner to give Vettel bits of Webber's car). Red Bull Racing operate somewhere between very, very little and absolutely nothing in Austria. They are tax registered in the UK, they employ mainly British staff, they pay employs in £s. For the race team, they get the race wins, and they should get the praise for it. For the owners, they get the money. That might be a nationalist way of thinking, but it's quite clear in my mind that it is British citizens working to get race victories.

Ferrari is obviously a bit of a funny one, because historically they've had Chris Dyer, Rob Smedley, Jean Todt, Ross Brawn, and Rory Byrne, all not Italians. But to me they are still Italian as the factory is there and the majority of staff are still Italian.

And yes I do realise that my whole way of thinking will fall down at the mention of Toyota.

watka wrote:And yes I do realise that my whole way of thinking will fall down at the mention of Toyota.

Meh. They never achieved anything so it doesn't really matter

Wizzie wrote:

watka wrote:And yes I do realise that my whole way of thinking will fall down at the mention of Toyota.

Meh. They never achieved anything so it doesn't really matter

Even if they had achieved loads, noone would care. Nobody cares about Toyota.

redbulljack14 wrote:

Wizzie wrote:

watka wrote:And yes I do realise that my whole way of thinking will fall down at the mention of Toyota.

Meh. They never achieved anything so it doesn't really matter

Even if they had achieved loads, noone would care. Nobody cares about Toyota.

The car in front is a... meh.

watka wrote:The car in front is a... meh.

They shouldn't be allowed to have that as their slogan, as in Formula 1, the car in front never was a ..... meh.

Just off the presses - D'Ambrosio has been confirmed as the second driver for Virgin Racing, partnering Glock for the 2011 season. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/88740

mario wrote:Just off the presses - D'Ambrosio has been confirmed as the second driver for Virgin Racing, partnering Glock for the 2011 season. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/88740

WOOHOO! YEEEEEEEEEEEESYESYESYESYESYEEEEEEEES! GET IN THERE JEROME! WOOOOOOOOOO!

Sorry for that, I just had to.

Bienvenue en Formule Un, Jerome!

Captain Hammer wrote:

watka wrote:I hate this current trend for registering the team in a certain country just because of the sponsors or the owners. If the workforce and facilities are in Britain, the team is British as far as I'm concerned.

But the team is owned and operated by the Austrians. The only reason why the team is based in England is because they're occupying the old Jaguar facilities. Most teams are based in England because Heathrow is the single most accessibe point on the fact of the earth. The British have no claim to the team or its success. You might as well say that Mark Webber is a British driver because he lives in England. I'm sorry, but to claim that Red Bull's success should be ackownledged with the British anthem is pretty damned arrogant of you.

Sorry to correct you Captain, but the reason why the majority of F1 teams in based in England is not because of the proximity to Heathrow. It is because of the location of the main suppliers and sub-contractors, traditionally in the so-called 'Motorsport Valley', and the availability of a large pool of experienced personnel.
The team is registered as Austrian, which is indisputable, after all, the owners have a right to register it as whatever they want it to be.
Well over half, not far off 3/4, of the staff is British and they have a very different opinion regarding the nationality of the team. It is an Austrian team that carries out all of its operations in the United Kindgom.
I don't agree that the British anthem should be played and it was a ridiculous cock-up when the organisers did do it (was it Malaysia 2009?).

Captain Hammer wrote:

watka wrote:I hate this current trend for registering the team in a certain country just because of the sponsors or the owners. If the workforce and facilities are in Britain, the team is British as far as I'm concerned.

But the team is owned and operated by the Austrians. The only reason why the team is based in England is because they're occupying the old Jaguar facilities. Most teams are based in England because Heathrow is the single most accessibe point on the fact of the earth. The British have no claim to the team or its success. You might as well say that Mark Webber is a British driver because he lives in England. I'm sorry, but to claim that Red Bull's success should be ackownledged with the British anthem is pretty damned arrogant of you.

Nearly all the Red Bull employees are British (I live in Milton Keynes, I see and hear them around a lot). It must be a bit galling to work all day and all night for the victory, and be rewarded with the Austrian national anthem. This isn't patriotism on my part - if McLaren was based and run in Austria by Austrians, then it would seem silly to play the British national anthem for their success. It's like the boss getting all the praise for your hard work. While Red Bull's success has nothing to do with the British nation, it's almost entirely to do with British individuals; in the same way that the team isn't owned by the Austrian nation, but one Austrian individual, and so Austria has a similarly small claim to the team's success. They need a piece of music that the whole team can get behind and which rewards everyone, not just the boss.

The Webber analogy makes no sense. Mark is an Australian driver because he's Australian - he's not made up of mainly British components.

So, by you logic, a team should compete under a licence based on the most-represented nationality in the team? I'm sorry, but how is that nay more fair than the current system? What if Red Bull employs 60% Britons and 40% Austrians. The Austrians put in just as much work as the Britons do, but when they win a race the British national anthem plays because there are more British people in the team. How is that at all fair? And what if the pit crews and mechanics are exclusively Austrian, but the hospitality teams and PR-men and the like are all British?

Teams race under a licence based on the nationality of the owners, And that's the way it's always been it's the fairest system we have.

So did McLaren run under a New Zealand licence while Bruce was still alive? And does that mean it ought to still because it still carries his name? Or should it be Bahraini because of one of its minority shareholders (Bahrain Mumtalakat Holding Company)? Or German (Daimler)? Or even Swiss (TAG Heuer)?

dr-baker wrote:So did McLaren run under a New Zealand licence while Bruce was still alive? And does that mean it ought to still because it still carries his name? Or should it be Bahraini because of one of its minority shareholders (Bahrain Mumtalakat Holding Company)? Or German (Daimler)? Or even Swiss (TAG Heuer)?

It can be whatever they want it to be.

Captain Hammer wrote:So, by you logic, a team should compete under a licence based on the most-represented nationality in the team? I'm sorry, but how is that nay more fair than the current system? What if Red Bull employs 60% Britons and 40% Austrians. The Austrians put in just as much work as the Britons do, but when they win a race the British national anthem plays because there are more British people in the team. How is that at all fair? And what if the pit crews and mechanics are exclusively Austrian, but the hospitality teams and PR-men and the like are all British?

Teams race under a licence based on the nationality of the owners, And that's the way it's always been it's the fairest system we have.

I'm saying exactly what I just said in the above posting:

"They need a piece of music that the whole team can get behind and which rewards everyone, not just the boss."

It's a team sport, they should have a team anthem.

mario wrote:Just off the presses - D'Ambrosio has been confirmed as the second driver for Virgin Racing, partnering Glock for the 2011 season. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/88740

I'm surprised that only one other person has commented on this news. It makes you think they're not true fans of the rejects! I'm now executing some kind of chest thump/out stretched fist salute of reject solidarity!

Good news for D'Ambrosio though I am looking behind him for mountains of cash as four years to get from GP2 to F1 doesn't strike me as particularly stellar.

What now for Lucas DiGrassi? Should Eytl be preparing his profile for the site or will a few years scratching around in reserve roles, sports cars or something see him back in the paddock?

I have to say the list of GP2 drivers who are successful in F1 is now starting to be rather equally balanced by the list of those who have not.

BigG80 wrote:

mario wrote:Just off the presses - D'Ambrosio has been confirmed as the second driver for Virgin Racing, partnering Glock for the 2011 season. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/88740

I'm surprised that only one other person has commented on this news. It makes you think they're not true fans of the rejects! I'm now executing some kind of chest thump/out stretched fist salute of reject solidarity!

Good news for D'Ambrosio though I am looking behind him for mountains of cash as four years to get from GP2 to F1 doesn't strike me as particularly stellar.

What now for Lucas DiGrassi? Should Eytl be preparing his profile for the site or will a few years scratching around in reserve roles, sports cars or something see him back in the paddock?

I have to say the list of GP2 drivers who are successful in F1 is now starting to be rather equally balanced by the list of those who have not.

Similar to F3000, then.

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:Similar to F3000, then.

Very true but when GP2 was launched/rebranded, it was trumpeted as being the development ground for F1 drivers and at first, it really was. But now five seasons down the line, the perception is that the field is demonstrably poorer and less competitive.

I would argue that the fact that guys like D'Ambrosio and others are now being signed to F1 suggests that very few of the newer GP2 drivers have been as good as the first few seasons worth of encumbents.

I really do fail to see why that should be the case though beyond the usual argument of some drivers having lots of backing and some truly talented drivers are just not getting the breaks.

Sorry, this is getting a bit off topic now from silly season.

BigG80 wrote:

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:Similar to F3000, then.

Very true but when GP2 was launched/rebranded, it was trumpeted as being the development ground for F1 drivers and at first, it really was. But now five seasons down the line, the perception is that the field is demonstrably poorer and less competitive.

I would argue that the fact that guys like D'Ambrosio and others are now being signed to F1 suggests that very few of the newer GP2 drivers have been as good as the first few seasons worth of encumbents.

I really do fail to see why that should be the case though beyond the usual argument of some drivers having lots of backing and some truly talented drivers are just not getting the breaks.

Sorry, this is getting a bit off topic now from silly season.

It seems all of the so called junior categories are eroding. GP2 doesn't seem to have anyone young and talented (except perhaps Bianchi), F3 Euroseries is nothing like it's former self, Formula BMW is gone, F2 has nobody really coming close barring Soucek's so-called Virgin test driver position, Alguersuari and Piquet are the only BF3 champions to make it into F1 recently, and we know how they're doing, and well, I don't want to go on ranting, but really, I think it's really clear why team managers aren't going for younger drivers.

BigG80 wrote:

mario wrote:Just off the presses - D'Ambrosio has been confirmed as the second driver for Virgin Racing, partnering Glock for the 2011 season. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/88740

I'm surprised that only one other person has commented on this news. It makes you think they're not true fans of the rejects! I'm now executing some kind of chest thump/out stretched fist salute of reject solidarity!

Good news for D'Ambrosio though I am looking behind him for mountains of cash as four years to get from GP2 to F1 doesn't strike me as particularly stellar.

What now for Lucas DiGrassi? Should Eytl be preparing his profile for the site or will a few years scratching around in reserve roles, sports cars or something see him back in the paddock?

I have to say the list of GP2 drivers who are successful in F1 is now starting to be rather equally balanced by the list of those who have not.

I'm excited! It's nice to have a Gallic presence in F1 again, I think it is needed. Unfortunately, I don't think Jerome is the next Vettel. I actually expect him to be comedy material for the first few races (I'm putting £20 down now that he spins in Quali 1 at Bahrain) based on his past record. Still, I wish him the best of luck and hope he gets more IIDOTRs than ROTRs!

BigG80 wrote:

mario wrote:Just off the presses - D'Ambrosio has been confirmed as the second driver for Virgin Racing, partnering Glock for the 2011 season. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/88740

I'm surprised that only one other person has commented on this news. It makes you think they're not true fans of the rejects! I'm now executing some kind of chest thump/out stretched fist salute of reject solidarity!

Good news for D'Ambrosio though I am looking behind him for mountains of cash as four years to get from GP2 to F1 doesn't strike me as particularly stellar.

What now for Lucas DiGrassi? Should Eytl be preparing his profile for the site or will a few years scratching around in reserve roles, sports cars or something see him back in the paddock?

I have to say the list of GP2 drivers who are successful in F1 is now starting to be rather equally balanced by the list of those who have not.

I'm always excited to see new drivers come along, and I'm keeping my fingers crossed we see di Resta too for 2011. I do hope, though, that the lack of testing doesn't mean that the first-time drivers mostly get replaced every year, while the old guard hang around in their 40s.

fjackdaw wrote:I'm always excited to see new drivers come along, and I'm keeping my fingers crossed we see di Resta too for 2011. I do hope, though, that the lack of testing doesn't mean that the first-time drivers mostly get replaced every year, while the old guard hang around in their 40s.

Don't get me wrong, I love seeing new drivers coming in and if they happen to have studied at the Kobayashi school of motoring, then I am especially keen.

fjackdaw wrote:

BigG80 wrote:

mario wrote:Just off the presses - D'Ambrosio has been confirmed as the second driver for Virgin Racing, partnering Glock for the 2011 season. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/88740

I'm surprised that only one other person has commented on this news. It makes you think they're not true fans of the rejects! I'm now executing some kind of chest thump/out stretched fist salute of reject solidarity!

Good news for D'Ambrosio though I am looking behind him for mountains of cash as four years to get from GP2 to F1 doesn't strike me as particularly stellar.

What now for Lucas DiGrassi? Should Eytl be preparing his profile for the site or will a few years scratching around in reserve roles, sports cars or something see him back in the paddock?

I have to say the list of GP2 drivers who are successful in F1 is now starting to be rather equally balanced by the list of those who have not.

I'm always excited to see new drivers come along, and I'm keeping my fingers crossed we see di Resta too for 2011. I do hope, though, that the lack of testing doesn't mean that the first-time drivers mostly get replaced every year, while the old guard hang around in their 40s.

That raises an interesting point: What if they do that, if the old guard retires, who will be there to succeed them? All the younger drivers will not have enough experience in F1!

Waris, F1 faced a similar issue in the 1990s, did it not?

Cynon wrote:Waris, F1 faced a similar issue in the 1990s, did it not?

Did it now? By the time Prost, Mansell etc. were gone, Schumacher, Hill and Häkkinen were already there, no?

BigG80 wrote: What now for Lucas DiGrassi? Should Eytl be preparing his profile for the site or will a few years scratching around in reserve roles, sports cars or something see him back in the paddock?

Start writing it, I think the move to Virgin was his first and last drive. Unless he pulls out a miracle testing role (which under current testing rules is now basically worthless) he's just finished.

A little aside: In light of the current testing rules, I think the big teams should take all their reserve drivers and put them in GP2 seats (sucks for the younger drivers, but oh well) to keep their skills sharp, in case one of the race drivers gets hurt. For example, what if Luca Badoer had spent half a season RACING in GP2 when he was asked to sub in for Massa. Might he have done better? When was the last time he'd actually run an F1 car (not in a straight line) at speed? March? People may disagree with me on this, but I think thats why putting Roman Grosjean in Piquet's seat last year actually made sense at that time.

Does anyone know what it is reserve drivers do during the season at this point? Are they in karts on a daily basis?

Jeroen Krautmeir wrote:It seems all of the so called junior categories are eroding. GP2 doesn't seem to have anyone young and talented (except perhaps Bianchi), F3 Euroseries is nothing like it's former self, Formula BMW is gone, F2 has nobody really coming close barring Soucek's so-called Virgin test driver position, Alguersuari and Piquet are the only BF3 champions to make it into F1 recently, and we know how they're doing, and well, I don't want to go on ranting, but really, I think it's really clear why team managers aren't going for younger drivers.

Maybe there are just too many feeder series. Way too many. People should be fighting tooth and nail for GP2 seats, not copping out and going to World Series, AutoGP, or Superleague. Why are GP2 Asia and Formula Nippon competing? With all these competing feeder series, and the world economy in the state it is, sponsorship dollars are being spread thin over half a dozen tier 2 categories when they could all be going to one or two.

If you really want to fix GP2, make the cars faster and harder to drive. Much harder.

F1000X wrote:

BigG80 wrote: What now for Lucas DiGrassi? Should Eytl be preparing his profile for the site or will a few years scratching around in reserve roles, sports cars or something see him back in the paddock?

Start writing it, I think the move to Virgin was his first and last drive. Unless he pulls out a miracle testing role (which under current testing rules is now basically worthless) he's just finished.

A little aside: In light of the current testing rules, I think the big teams should take all their reserve drivers and put them in GP2 seats (sucks for the younger drivers, but oh well) to keep their skills sharp, in case one of the race drivers gets hurt. For example, what if Luca Badoer had spent half a season RACING in GP2 when he was asked to sub in for Massa. Might he have done better? When was the last time he'd actually run an F1 car (not in a straight line) at speed? March? People may disagree with me on this, but I think thats why putting Roman Grosjean in Piquet's seat last year actually made sense at that time.

Does anyone know what it is reserve drivers do during the season at this point? Are they in karts on a daily basis?

Hmm, I suspect that you are right - by failing to match Glock, he didn't enhance his reputation significantly, and his crash at 130R in Suzuka during the warm up lap, whether due to him or the car hurt what little reputation he had left badly (even if it was mechanical, the idea that it was driver error has already been engrained into the minds of all). So, unless he can gather together a significant amount of sponsorship, he is unlikely to find a way back into the sport, at least for the short term.

As for the comments about what the test drivers do, you are right that a number of the current test drivers really spend very little time in the seat in F1, thanks to the ban on testing. OK, some, like Di Resta, were allowed to take part in practise sessions, but he was more of an exception (mainly because Force India may be thinking of giving him a race seat).

Not all reserve drivers do nothing, but most who do race have to do so outside of open wheeler series - Paffett keeps his skills sharp over in DTM, where Di Resta also plies his trade. Bianchi is still focussed on GP2, where he is getting his practise, and I am sure that Gutierrez will either drive in GP2 again or possibly take a step up to GP2 or Formula 2, and Razia, I believe, will stay in GP2 for 2011. Then there is Ricciardo, who will be driving during the first practise session of each race weekend down at Toro Rosso, whilst taking part in the Formula Renault 3.5 series.

And that, for the moment, is about all I can tell for what the reserve drivers do outside of Formula 1 to keep their skills sharp - because quite a few teams are still to announce who their reserve driver is. As we know, Heidfeld left Mercedes GP for Sauber, and has yet to be replaced, and Renault will probably wait until Petrov makes his announcement before they announce their reserve driver. Team Lotus haven't yet announced who will replace Fauzy, now that he is chasing up race seats elsewhere, and naturally we have no idea if HRT will even exist next year, let alone who will drive for them.

Am I the only one that thinks Fairuz Fauzy is absolute garbage?

Jérôme d'Ambrosio gets the second Virgin seat.

Pass or Fail?

JeremyMcClean wrote:Jérôme d'Ambrosio gets the second Virgin seat.

Pass or Fail?

Flunked out before the season's end with Aleshin to take his place.

JeremyMcClean wrote:Jérôme d'Ambrosio gets the second Virgin seat.

Pass or Fail?

Fail. He doesn't even deserve the test role.

F1000X wrote:Am I the only one that thinks Fairuz Fauzy is absolute garbage?

+1.

JeremyMcClean wrote:Jérôme d'Ambrosio gets the second Virgin seat.

Pass or Fail?

Fail on your part. This story was the page before this one.

Faustus wrote:

F1000X wrote:Am I the only one that thinks Fairuz Fauzy is absolute garbage?

+2