Grand Prix Rejects

i'm just glad the Nuerburgring got their money in order. that was one scary period of time.

Hockenheim was great with the section through the forest. Losing that has made it lose all its personality.

i think at one point it was the only track that separated lap times based on horsepower and drag.

Monza will not get the boot even though Bernie says so. This is just him using his usual negotiation tactics.

Yannick wrote:Monza will not get the boot even though Bernie says so. This is just him using his usual negotiation tactics.

I hope you're right, I really do. But we did lose the Belgian GP at Spa on a couple of occasions, and the French GP (the birthplace of Grand Prix racing, no less) has been gone for some years now, and is unlikely to return in the foreseeable future.

And didn't we lose the Canadian Grand Prix at Montreal once or twice as well, at around the same time Belgium was going part-time?

dr-baker wrote:

Yannick wrote:Monza will not get the boot even though Bernie says so. This is just him using his usual negotiation tactics.

I hope you're right, I really do. But we did lose the Belgian GP at Spa on a couple of occasions, and the French GP (the birthplace of Grand Prix racing, no less) has been gone for some years now, and is unlikely to return in the foreseeable future.

And didn't we lose the Canadian Grand Prix at Montreal once or twice as well, at around the same time Belgium was going part-time?

Well, we lost Belgium those two times for perfectly valid reasons. In 2003, it was something regarding tobacco advertising (not really sure) and in 2006, it was because they were renovating the track.

Ah yes. Tobacco advertising wasn't really a valid reason given my postion on tabacco, but resurfacing the track is indeed perfectly legitimate. Shame it did lead to one year's race not taking place, though. Better not happen to Monza. They seem to be able to keep the track surface up-to-date sufficiently between races...

dr-baker wrote:Ah yes. Tobacco advertising wasn't really a valid reason given my postion on tabacco, but resurfacing the track is indeed perfectly legitimate. Shame it did lead to one year's race not taking place, though. Better not happen to Monza. They seem to be able to keep the track surface up-to-date sufficiently between races...

Not only resurfacing, but a new pit complex. Considering the geographical nature of Spa, things like digging the parking below the new paddock is not something you can do in a few weeks. (i suppose, because i'm not an engineer) And then there's Belgian law, which makes any construction works even slower. Usually things are finished 10 years after they were intended to start. That is, if they even finish at all...

Azerbaijan is on the calendar for 2016

That'll probably end up replacing Monza or Melbourne on the calendar. That's gonna be popular...

East Londoner wrote:Azerbaijan is on the calendar for 2016

That'll probably end up replacing Monza or Melbourne on the calendar. That's gonna be popular...

With also Mexico coming in, I do wonder which of the European venues will be dumped. Germany could be a surprise 'winner'...

I dont think Bernie will remove Monza, for the same reason he didnt shelve the British GP - its always a big sell, and it wont look good for a sport if its swapped for a 1/4 full Tilkedrome like Korea.

If I had to bet on a European venue to dissappear, it would be Belgium. Austria is new, UK and Germany have agreed fairly recent deals, Spain still has Alonsomania, Monaco is Monaco, and Hungary has managed probably by doing a 99 year lease or something (I have no idea why its lasted on F1 calendars so long)

That leaves Belguim. And its been axed before (though not of Bernies doing)

To go further afield, I would guess the Aussie GP, havent the authorities been asking questions about it?

DanielPT wrote:With also Mexico coming in, I do wonder which of the European venues will be dumped. Germany could be a surprise 'winner'...

With Mercedes likely to win both championships, adding the possibility of a new German WDC, it might be a shock removal, if that happened. Germany is a big enough market to be safe, and I have no idea how our Hungaroring managed to stay on, especially after 1996...

Shizuka wrote:

DanielPT wrote:With also Mexico coming in, I do wonder which of the European venues will be dumped. Germany could be a surprise 'winner'...

With Mercedes likely to win both championships, adding the possibility of a new German WDC, it might be a shock removal, if that happened. Germany is a big enough market to be safe, and I have no idea how our Hungaroring managed to stay on, especially after 1996...

I always thought that the Hungaroring was the closest F1 venue for the vast majority of Eastern Europe. You could also say that the Hungarian GP when it first opened was important to the region because it let countries on the other side of the Iron Curtain to get to see F1 and may have even been an early chink that reopened Eastern Europe back to the western world, so the course may have sentimental value for the people of the former Warsaw Bloc.

However, should the Russian GP stick to the calendar for more than 2-3 years, Hungary may be under threat and may be dropped should Russia's street circuit prove to be more attractive for sponsors compared to the aging circuit at Budapest...

It's a shame to see another street circuit appear on the calendar, really do they produce good racing in F1.

We talk about Australia, but Malaysia's contract runs out next year. I can't see why Malaysia is a lucrative market especially as the Singapore GP is close by.

watka wrote:We talk about Australia, but Malaysia's contract runs out next year. I can't see why Malaysia is a lucrative market especially as the Singapore GP is close by.

Petronas?

To be honest, I could just see them expanding the calender to more than 20 races, given how often the bigwigs ignore the teams.

andrew2209 wrote:To be honest, I could just see them expanding the calender to more than 20 races, given how often the bigwigs ignore the teams.

I can see this. When I first started watching F1, there were only 16 races, and I read in the specialist press that, for the calendar to expand, compensation had to be paid to each team for each race over the 16 because of the extra expense. Slowly but surely, the calendar has expanded and expanded to 17, then 18, then 19, and now 20. Why not 21, 22 or more? It would be a travesty to lose any more of the European races, mind you.

It's been pointed out by other F1 journos, I think I saw Peter Windsor mention it last in a copy of F1 Racing a few months ago, but ultimately the value of being on the F1 calendar for new venues, like for example Azerbaijan, Russia, China, Bahrain, etc is being able to be associated with the historic tracks. It's that prestige of being able to share the calendar with those tracks. If you take them away, you loose the history, and you loose the soul.

Of course circuits come and go - it looks like we'll see the return of Mexico which up until the 1990s was a relative stalwart on the calendar. Likewise was South Africa before Apartheid put an end to that. And the US doesn't need explaining either. France is another good case in point, and Austria's return is another classic example.

My point is, whilst a certain number of circuits are always going to rotate every decade or so as they fall in and out of fashion, F1 needs to retain a core of historically valuable circuits in order to keep these new ones interested in being a part of it.

AndreaModa wrote:My point is, whilst a certain number of circuits are always going to rotate every decade or so as they fall in and out of fashion, F1 needs to retain a core of historically valuable circuits in order to keep these new ones interested in being a part of it.

Silverstone, Monza and Monaco being the prime examples, with each featuring in most years of the championship (with Silverstone having rotated with Brands for some years, but having hosted the majority of Britain's GP, Monza only missing once - Imola being the replacement in 1980, and Monaco only off the calendar in 1951, '53 and '54). An F1 without these races would be like an F1 with McLaren, Ferrari and Williams all going missing.

AndreaModa wrote:Of course circuits come and go - it looks like we'll see the return of Mexico which up until the 1990s was a relative stalwart on the calendar. Likewise was South Africa before Apartheid put an end to that. And the US doesn't need explaining either. France is another good case in point, and Austria's return is another classic example.

My point is, whilst a certain number of circuits are always going to rotate every decade or so as they fall in and out of fashion, F1 needs to retain a core of historically valuable circuits in order to keep these new ones interested in being a part of it.

Actually, the Mexican Grand Prix has had "merely" been held 15 times all over his history, in one eight- and one seven-year stint. By now, Malaysia has more of a F1 history than Mexico as far as races go. Enough from me nitpicking, though. I personally think traditional circuits are important, but in my opinion they must offer more to F1 and the race calendar than merely tradition. Monza does that by being the fastest venue on the F1 calendar. Monaco does it by being the slowest. Hungary does it by providing F1 to an otherwise barren region. Now on the other hands, tracks like Silverstone may have tradition, but the racing on them is quite frankly bad and the number of races being memorable for good reasons in the last, say, 20 years, you can count on one hand. Therefore I for my part would only not be offended if Silverstone is kicked off the calendar, in fact I would start an immediate dance of joy.

So yeah, blind trust in tradition is bad as it leads to stuff like male circumcision and Silverstone still having a slot on the calendar. Seriously, screw Silverstone. Still, F1 musn't completely abandon its roots - all without losing the view for no markets, because, let's face it, Europe is hardly a significant player in the world anymore and it's only downhill from here.

"Tradition", that F1 fans love, often is synonymous with having full packed stands rather than the sheer amount of races held. Silverstone is the best example of having a massive passionate attendance - in comparison to most (not all) of the new tracks, which seem to be in places where nobody simply cares enough.

At least in Mexico, they will care...

Exactly, the race at Silverstone gives a place for arguably the second most passionate (behind the Italians) crowds to go to every year. Also, it gives most of the teams a good mid-season "home race".

Yeah, and whilst you'll do well to get the 120,000+ crowds Silverstone gets on Sunday alone anywhere else, you also need to bear in mind that the majority of teams, and therefore employees, are based in the UK. The captive F1 audience in Britain (by that I mean the hardcore fans) is significantly higher than most other countries as well, outside of Italy anyway. That bunch of people represent a powerful marketing and buying tool when it comes to the F1 brand in general, as well as all of its sponsors.

This may be very unpopular but I feel Monza has had its day (just like Monaco TBH) as a track it is dull and I never realy get excited by watching the race (last 2 years I went abroad on the weekend and missed the race) Why keep a race just for nostalgia's sake< singapore IMHO should of replaced Monaco years ago, Germany do not need to have a GP every year, I am sure if some grand Prix are only Held ever 3 or 4 years the crowds at those events would noit suffer and it would give each season more variety in the circuits it visits Ie one year we would have a French race the following it would be the Monaco and the next we could have an Italian or German and so on would this spice things up and it doesn't have to be the euro tracks that they alternate , why not alternate a OZ gp with an NZ gp and a Malaysian GP or a Japanese and a Korean GP Or Azerbijan with Russia and China and Argentine a With Brazil GP....

WeirdKerr wrote:This may be very unpopular but I feel Monza has had its day (just like Monaco TBH) as a track it is dull and I never realy get excited by watching the race (last 2 years I went abroad on the weekend and missed the race) Why keep a race just for nostalgia's sake< singapore IMHO should of replaced Monaco years ago, Germany do not need to have a GP every year, I am sure if some grand Prix are only Held ever 3 or 4 years the crowds at those events would noit suffer and it would give each season more variety in the circuits it visits Ie one year we would have a French race the following it would be the Monaco and the next we could have an Italian or German and so on would this spice things up and it doesn't have to be the euro tracks that they alternate , why not alternate a OZ gp with an NZ gp and a Malaysian GP or a Japanese and a Korean GP Or Azerbijan with Russia and China and Argentine a With Brazil GP....

So, you have never been to Monza, obviously.

Ross Prawn wrote:

WeirdKerr wrote:This may be very unpopular but I feel Monza has had its day (just like Monaco TBH) as a track it is dull and I never realy get excited by watching the race (last 2 years I went abroad on the weekend and missed the race) Why keep a race just for nostalgia's sake< singapore IMHO should of replaced Monaco years ago, Germany do not need to have a GP every year, I am sure if some grand Prix are only Held ever 3 or 4 years the crowds at those events would noit suffer and it would give each season more variety in the circuits it visits Ie one year we would have a French race the following it would be the Monaco and the next we could have an Italian or German and so on would this spice things up and it doesn't have to be the euro tracks that they alternate , why not alternate a OZ gp with an NZ gp and a Malaysian GP or a Japanese and a Korean GP Or Azerbijan with Russia and China and Argentine a With Brazil GP....

So, you have never been to Monza, obviously.

Also, Monza provides something very different to the other tracks on the calendar in that it is very dependent on top speed rather than aerodynamic performance through the corners. Given how many mid-speed circuits there are on the calendar, especially those of Tilke's design, that's something to be treasured in modern Formula One.

As an aside, am I the only one who is a bit worried about the Russian Grand Prix in terms of racing? The track doesn't look very appealing at all, with 90-degree bends all over the shop. That doesn't bode well for seeing spectacular driving at its best. I can't help thinking that it might just end up pear-shaped simply because the circuit won't be worth watching a race on and all because Tilke had to use the roads around the Olympic venue.

With the ongoing political situation,it wouldn't be a total surprise if Russia finds itself dropped from the calendar-especially if it escalates-Formula 1 teams travelling to the middle of a war zone wouldn't be too popular.Of course,there is a lot of oligarch-billionaire money floating round and the rouble speaks...

Hooray, looks like Australia will (well, maybe) be on the calendar until 2020.

http://www.grandprix.com.au/news/napthi ... -prix-2020

AustralianStig wrote:Hooray, looks like Australia will (well, maybe) be on the calendar until 2020.

http://www.grandprix.com.au/news/napthi ... -prix-2020

Confirmed on Autosport too, so I believe it to be true.

dr-baker wrote:

AustralianStig wrote:Hooray, looks like Australia will (well, maybe) be on the calendar until 2020.

http://www.grandprix.com.au/news/napthi ... -prix-2020

Confirmed on Autosport too, so I believe it to be true.

Well they had to. Melbourne has marketed itself (into a corner) as Australia's capital of sport, so not matter how much money they keep loosing it *has* to happen.

....so I guess they will keep driving it into the ground....

(But I'll still go every year)

Boomstick wrote:

dr-baker wrote:

AustralianStig wrote:Hooray, looks like Australia will (well, maybe) be on the calendar until 2020.

http://www.grandprix.com.au/news/napthi ... -prix-2020

Confirmed on Autosport too, so I believe it to be true.

Well they had to. Melbourne has marketed itself (into a corner) as Australia's capital of sport, so not matter how much money they keep loosing it *has* to happen.

....so I guess they will keep driving it into the ground....

(But I'll still go every year)

True, but the way the government talks every year it sounds like they're ready to tell Bernie to shove it. And to be honest, I'm surprised F1 still want to come to Australia given the huge costs and the small market (but I'm not complaining )

dr-baker wrote:

AustralianStig wrote:Hooray, looks like Australia will (well, maybe) be on the calendar until 2020.

http://www.grandprix.com.au/news/napthi ... -prix-2020

Confirmed on Autosport too, so I believe it to be true.

Good news. A modern-ish track that hasn't been frigged about with much.

I still hope Catalunya dropped in place of Jarama. We need 1 more twisty circuit. And Monza, Spa, Silverstone, Monaco? They dropped, F1 is no longer F1. It's GP1. I just hope that will never happen.

Well, nobody cares my opinion anyway

AxelP800 wrote:I still hope Catalunya dropped in place of Jarama. We need 1 more twisty circuit. And Monza, Spa, Silverstone, Monaco? They dropped, F1 is no longer F1. It's GP1. I just hope that will never happen.

Well, nobody cares my opinion anyway

Monaco's the only safe one there, mate. Monza and Spa could be gone soon.

I'm just glad that New Jersey finally seems to be dead and buried for good. Aside from the fact that Austin still needs another 2-3 years to develop a core audience (especially if Mexico comes back). The traffic and hotel situation there is AWFUL, and that's before you put an F1 race there.

Wallio wrote:I'm just glad that New Jersey finally seems to be dead and buried for good.

It isn't, the plans have been pushed back to 2016.

Not trying to be an arse, but you really think a race that was supposed to take place in 2012, will really go off being pushed back that far? And the organizers have been strangely quiet. They usually pop up every 6-8 weeks with a "No really, THIS TIME, its for real. We'll be ready, honest!"

Wallio wrote:Not trying to be an arse, but you really think a race that was supposed to take place in 2012, will really go off being pushed back that far? And the organizers have been strangely quiet. They usually pop up every 6-8 weeks with a "No really, THIS TIME, its for real. We'll be ready, honest!"

Well, obviously you're gonna have your doubts, but as someone who's genuinely interested in seeing the race go forward, I'm going to remain cautiously optimistic until I hear that the plans are scrapped.

Salamander wrote:

Wallio wrote:Not trying to be an arse, but you really think a race that was supposed to take place in 2012, will really go off being pushed back that far? And the organizers have been strangely quiet. They usually pop up every 6-8 weeks with a "No really, THIS TIME, its for real. We'll be ready, honest!"

Well, obviously you're gonna have your doubts, but as someone who's genuinely interested in seeing the race go forward, I'm going to remain cautiously optimistic until I hear that the plans are scrapped.

I for one wouldn't be surprised if the lack of money and pushing back the race date is because of the hurricane and tropical storm damage from 2011/12 because of the citizens needing money for rebuilding, which in most places is considered more inportant than an F1 race. That area in 2011/12 was certainly not in a good shape.

EDIT: I'm also looking forward to seeing the race happen. I think it will be a fantastic layout, with some great elevation and will likely have some fast speeds. Although I don't think 2 American races are necessary. I mean, is the F1 fanbase in America that big? Does it really make sense now?

Salamander wrote:

Wallio wrote:I'm just glad that New Jersey finally seems to be dead and buried for good.

It isn't, the plans have been pushed back to 2016.

Here's hoping they will finally get the New Jersey race off the ground, together with an IndyCar race on the Saturday after F1 qualifying.