Grand Prix Rejects

Jeroen Krautmeir wrote:

AndreaModa wrote:

mario wrote:However, on a slightly more worrying note, there are some reports in the Spanish media that are reporting that Carabantes had been given a three month suspended jail sentence, along with a fine, for involvement in a fraudulent housing development deal in the late 1990's. Although it is currently unclear what exactly his involvement was (it seems that he was a manager at the company which carried out the fraudulent activities), I hope that this is not a sign of worse to come - because whilst HRT are improving, allegations that their owner may not be entirely honest could do a lot more damage to their chances of finding more sponsors...

Haha superb! It wouldn't be a reject team without someone getting imprisoned for fraudulent activity somewhere along the line would it?

You're only saying this because you're an MVR fan, right?

Absolutely not! I mean I do have a fondness for MVR, but not to the point where I dislike HRT! I'm a member of the F1Rejects forum! I love all of the backmarker teams!

Fraud and prison sentences just seem to go so well with reject teams - think how many have gone down in similar circumstances!

AndreaModa wrote:Absolutely not! I mean I do have a fondness for MVR, but not to the point where I dislike HRT! I'm a member of the F1Rejects forum! I love all of the backmarker teams!

Fraud and prison sentences just seem to go so well with reject teams - think how many have gone down in similar circumstances!

Haha, okay then!

Anyway: http://www.hispaniaracing.com/news.php?nid=378

I especially love this part, right at the end:

*Hispania Racing doesn't cover flight or accommodation costs

AndreaModa wrote:Absolutely not! I mean I do have a fondness for MVR, but not to the point where I dislike HRT! I'm a member of the F1Rejects forum! I love all of the backmarker teams!

Fraud and prison sentences just seem to go so well with reject teams - think how many have gone down in similar circumstances!

In that case, I expect the same jubilant reaction from you if the Russians behind a certain minnow are also investigated for fraud.

mario wrote:However, on a slightly more worrying note, there are some reports in the Spanish media that are reporting that Carabantes had been given a three month suspended jail sentence, along with a fine, for involvement in a fraudulent housing development deal in the late 1990's. Although it is currently unclear what exactly his involvement was (it seems that he was a manager at the company which carried out the fraudulent activities), I hope that this is not a sign of worse to come - because whilst HRT are improving, allegations that their owner may not be entirely honest could do a lot more damage to their chances of finding more sponsors...

I'm not too worried since it is known that fraud convictions are just some minor annoyances given to rich people to uphold the pretence that they are not above the law.

LionZoo wrote:

AndreaModa wrote:Absolutely not! I mean I do have a fondness for MVR, but not to the point where I dislike HRT! I'm a member of the F1Rejects forum! I love all of the backmarker teams!

Fraud and prison sentences just seem to go so well with reject teams - think how many have gone down in similar circumstances!

In that case, I expect the same jubilant reaction from you if the Russians behind a certain minnow are also investigated for fraud.

You can count on it

So, with Virgin focusing on 2012, and HRT looking to do so as well, they will have a headstart over Lotus in the development race. So, maybe we may see Lotus come under fire from HRT and Virgin next year. HRT just need a second in pace to get Lotus, if the next few upgrades can do it, they will be close for 2011, and 2012 even closer

Klon wrote:

mario wrote:However, on a slightly more worrying note, there are some reports in the Spanish media that are reporting that Carabantes had been given a three month suspended jail sentence, along with a fine, for involvement in a fraudulent housing development deal in the late 1990's. Although it is currently unclear what exactly his involvement was (it seems that he was a manager at the company which carried out the fraudulent activities), I hope that this is not a sign of worse to come - because whilst HRT are improving, allegations that their owner may not be entirely honest could do a lot more damage to their chances of finding more sponsors...

I'm not too worried since it is known that fraud convictions are just some minor annoyances given to rich people to uphold the pretence that they are not above the law.

Or, in some cases, explains how those individuals became wealthy in the first place - it reminds me of the old Dilbert cartoon:

Peter wrote:So, with Virgin focusing on 2012, and HRT looking to do so as well, they will have a headstart over Lotus in the development race. So, maybe we may see Lotus come under fire from HRT and Virgin next year. HRT just need a second in pace to get Lotus, if the next few upgrades can do it, they will be close for 2011, and 2012 even closer

It really depends a lot on the venue, though - at venues like Barcelona, which are a strong test of the overall aerodynamic efficiency of your car, HRT were closer to two seconds a lap behind Team Lotus. Now, admittedly the new exhaust system on the HRT car should have improved their car, and the restrictions on retarded ignition maps from Silverstone onwards should be of benefit to them (since their side mounted system, like Mercedes, is thought to be relatively insensitive to the exhaust flow, albeit with a smaller performance gain).

Admittedly, by contrast Team Lotus might be more badly hit - the Renault engine is thought to have the most aggressive engine mapping, and the Red Bull style exhaust is much more throttle sensitive (but yields a bigger potential performance gain when on full throttle).
Finding a second a lap, though, is not trivial - it'd likely take more than a few upgrades, and although some new parts have made their way onto the car this season (modified front wing elements and engine cover, as well that that new exhaust in Canada), making large changes that actually work properly is not easy. Remember how McLaren and Mercedes spent a lot of time last year trying to perfect their blown diffusers?
If development will stop after Silverstone, that doesn't leave a lot of time to design, manufacture, test and transport new pieces ahead of the British GP, especially when you want to find such a large chunk of time - that's normally closer to the sort of upgrade packages we'd see for the Barcelona GP after the opening long haul events, which are normally refined over several months, not weeks.

As for 2012, well, whilst HRT could well get ahead of Virgin Racing, given the difficulties that team are having with their design team, I think that Team Lotus are more likely to be moving even further away from them. That deal with General Electric is bringing in some serious cash; $30 million per year (over the next three years) according to Joe Saward.
Furthermore, Team Lotus have announced that they will be using KERS in 2012 - given their Renault engine deal, it's likely to be the Magnetti Marelli system that Renault and (in a heavily modified form) Red Bull also use - which will give the team a few more tenths a lap (although there was a rumour going around that one of HRT's sponsors, Base Batteries, was developing a KERS unit for HRT in return for advertising space).

True, HRT will have the advantage of getting their wind tunnel model ready first, and tested, thanks to the Mercedes deal. However, given the way that Team Lotus have been aggressively expanding their facilities, capabilities (the deal to use the Williams wind tunnel), staff base and, most notably, budget, I'm wondering if Team Lotus might be approaching the point where it could afford to run two design teams, one for 2011, and another for 2012, as the larger outfits do.

I don't think that Lotus can run 2 separate design teams as yet, and if so, not nearly with as much effort as HRT and Vrigin fully looking at 2012. But 30 million is a big number, that's 75% of Virgin's budget now, isn't it?

But HRT and Virgin will not be far behind. Virgin, if I believe, are acquiring Sam Michael's employment, and HRT are getting better every day, and if those BASE Batteries rumors are true, Lotus may not make the leaps and bounds from HRT you imply they will. If HRT manage to get any large sponsorship deals like Lotus' with GE, and if Virgin can get some more money as well, which is not impossible, as F1's popularity grows considerably. I can see some more investors from India coming in to HRT, if not from their own home in Spain, and I believe Marussia will be buying out Virgin for 2012. Lotus aren't the only ones growing.

Peter wrote:Virgin, if I believe, are acquiring Sam Michael's employment

If true, this doesn't surprise me. I was expecting the lower order teams to hoover up these clearly talented, but unwanted personnel. Like Gascoyne at Lotus, hopefully Sam Michael will help Virgin up the grid.

Peter wrote:I believe Marussia will be buying out Virgin for 2012.

I don't think that will happen. Autosport ran an article a week or two ago about Branson who said he was fully committed to F1 and the Virgin team, though from what he said he clearly seems happy with Marussia and John Booth dealing with the day-to-day running whilst the Virgin brand stumps up a large proportion of the team's budget. He's attended at least the last two races this year so I don't think he's going just yet. But another year of mediocrity might change things for 2013.

AndreaModa wrote:I don't think that will happen. Autosport ran an article a week or two ago about Branson who said he was fully committed to F1 and the Virgin team, though from what he said he clearly seems happy with Marussia and John Booth dealing with the day-to-day running whilst the Virgin brand stumps up a large proportion of the team's budget.

If only it were actually large, it would help matters much.

Peter wrote:I don't think that Lotus can run 2 separate design teams as yet, and if so, not nearly with as much effort as HRT and Vrigin fully looking at 2012. But 30 million is a big number, that's 75% of Virgin's budget now, isn't it?

But HRT and Virgin will not be far behind. Virgin, if I believe, are acquiring Sam Michael's employment, and HRT are getting better every day, and if those BASE Batteries rumors are true, Lotus may not make the leaps and bounds from HRT you imply they will. If HRT manage to get any large sponsorship deals like Lotus' with GE, and if Virgin can get some more money as well, which is not impossible, as F1's popularity grows considerably. I can see some more investors from India coming in to HRT, if not from their own home in Spain, and I believe Marussia will be buying out Virgin for 2012. Lotus aren't the only ones growing.

Perhaps not yet, although Team Lotus might not be far off that point - their budget was already in excess of $60 million this year, thanks mostly to sponsorship from Fernandes's companies (i.e. Tune Group and Air Asia). However, Fernandes has been pretty busy - just a few days before signing the General Electric deal, Fernandes had also secured a technical partnership and sponsorship deal with Dell http://www.f1technical.net/news/16368 - so he has managed to secure the backing of more than one major organisation in recent days.

It is also worth noting that there are rumours that Fernandes might be close to signing another deal with a major electronics manufacturer - there are suggestions that he has been in contact with Research In Motion recently. True, it might just be hot air, but it would fit in with the deals he has recently struck, and Fernandes is, if nothing else, ambitious with his plans for the team, so it might be credible. All in all, at this rate, it's plausible that Team Lotus might have closer to $100 million next year for their budget, perhaps more - at which point, they will probably almost be on a level playing field with the tail end of the midfield pack.

I do not discount the possibility that HRT could negotiate a deal with a major company in the same way that Fernandes did - it helped that Fernandes had contacts with GE beforehand (Joe Saward has suggested that Fernandes's had already been negotiating with GE's aviation division for a supply of their latest generation of aviation engines for his Air Asia business).
The deal that HRT did strike with Base Batteries is proof that they are pretty active, and are finding new deals, although it might be difficult for HRT to find support in the Spanish market when Alonso is the main focus of attention. True, when Villalonga was hired a few months ago, he did say that he was speaking to a number of large Spanish companies (amongst them was thought to be Repsol), although those rumours have diminished since then.
As for India, again that is a very interesting option for HRT, although there might be some complications with Karthikeyan's TATA Group personal sponsorship (it's thought that was part of the reason why Mallya didn't want to hire Karthikeyain, since TATA are a business rival).

So, HRT might still have a reasonably bright future if they can secure further outside funding - not something trivial at the moment though, since even teams like Ferrari have been loosing sponsors recently. They are still ambitious, targeting 10th place in the WCC (although that is unlikely without another chaotic race, given their current relative performance), their design team is now stronger than it was 12 months ago and the Williams partnership may start yielding results in the next year or two - I just hope that Carabantes's recent trial doesn't scare off any potential investors, though.

Carbantes' trial shouldn't affect anything. I mean, any sponsors with sense should know that it has nothing to do with HRT. And they should at least be nice and give them some money . HRT is noticed now, much more than last year because they aren't just a useless backmarker with rubbish pace and an unupdated car. Plus the bright new livery and those clever little stuff Daniel Simon put on the car help us notice any new sponsors that fill them. Remember when we all went bananas over the sponsorship on the former [Cool spot] on the front wing? First thing I noticed when I saw the pic with their new EBD.

Peter wrote:If HRT manage to get any large sponsorship deals like Lotus' with GE, and if Virgin can get some more money as well, which is not impossible, as F1's popularity grows considerably.

And if my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle.

Ferrim wrote:

Peter wrote:If HRT manage to get any large sponsorship deals like Lotus' with GE, and if Virgin can get some more money as well, which is not impossible, as F1's popularity grows considerably.

And if my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle.

i your aunt had balls, she'd probably be still a virgin and might need some HRT

This wrote:

Ferrim wrote:

Peter wrote:If HRT manage to get any large sponsorship deals like Lotus' with GE, and if Virgin can get some more money as well, which is not impossible, as F1's popularity grows considerably.

And if my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle.

i your aunt had balls, she'd probably be still a virgin and might need some HRT

Snappy comeback!

This wrote:

Ferrim wrote:

Peter wrote:If HRT manage to get any large sponsorship deals like Lotus' with GE, and if Virgin can get some more money as well, which is not impossible, as F1's popularity grows considerably.

And if my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle.

i your aunt had balls, she'd probably be still a virgin and might need some HRT

Ouch. That's a low blow man.

it was actually meant to be funny, not to hurt his feelings!

I'm in a position to confirm that it didn't hurt my feelings at all!

HRT is proving themselves to actually be a good team and being with being more professional and beating Virgin is only doing wonders in terms of sponsors. Besides we are here to support these teams and we are a good costumer target for eventual sponsors. I might be convinced to buy a couple of Home Base UPSs pretty soon!

we should start a brand called 'your logo here' and profit from HRT

This wrote:we should start a brand called 'your logo here' and profit from HRT

http://www.yourlogohere.com.au/

They beat us to it!

Shizuka wrote:

This wrote:we should start a brand called 'your logo here' and profit from HRT

http://www.yourlogohere.com.au/

They beat us to it!

AGS used to cover their car in question marks, Batman never showed up though,,, and niether did the sponsors

And Tyrrell had Zena Warrior Princess!

Should be an interesting race for HRT, apparently they got some new aero parts so if they can beat Virgin (again) it will confirm them as officially the 11th team.

Considering it is their 'second' home GP, they may also have some local sponsors. Perhaps Burger King can sponsor them just like they did with Sauber last year!

Shizuka wrote:

This wrote:we should start a brand called 'your logo here' and profit from HRT

http://www.yourlogohere.com.au/

They beat us to it!

while 'cool spot' seems to be a former 7up mascotte

secret sponsors maybe?


anyway, i found out that 'nothing of interest here' is not a registered company.

So, apparently HRT is bringing a big update package to Silverstone. All I have to say is, Lotus, your days are numbered

Peter wrote:So, apparently HRT is bringing a big update package to Silverstone. All I have to say is, Lotus, your days are numbered

Maybe - bear in mind, though, that the upgrade package HRT are planning on bringing is quite likely to be the last upgrade package they have in the pipeline. After all, they had said that they would switch their resources to their 2012 car quite soon after Silverstone, so it's unlikely that, save for a Monza (and possibly Spa) spec package, they'll have any major upgrades left.
By comparison, Team Lotus are not quite ready to quit just yet, it seems - especially since the ban on a retarded ignition, thought to be worth at least 0.5s a lap, might just bring them level with the tail end of the mid field. So, even if HRT did manage to gain a sizeable amount of time with their Silverstone spec package, without any further development I suspect that Team Lotus would move ahead of them again.

Still, they'll certainly cement their position ahead of Virgin Racing, though, so at least 11th place in the WCC looks secure.

I'm not expecting HRT to be beating Lotus from this upgrade. Rather, expecting them to be able to capitalize from their superior reliability, or just from any problems Lotus might run into in the races, or even from superior strategy, as the HRT is very easy on tyres, both drivers able to do 2 or even 1 stop in the races. We'll just have to wait and see.

Speaking of upgrades, someone who has good eyes, what's new on the Hispania this race? They always say for each race that they have some new upgrades and aero parts, and they always do.

different rear wing setups on both cars that I've noticed not seem anything else though.

One thing I want to know is that little shark fin they got does it make any difference at all? all it seems to do is flap about loads

The car itself looks like one of the least stable I've seen for a good few years, but it's clearly reasonably slippy. I hope they can throw a few spanners in Lotus' workers as the season goes on. If they had the same funding they could develop their machine into something capable of competing to the same standard and maybe even beating Williams and Toro Rosso. There is talent there, and Colin Kolles is doing a good job of organising them.

At what point last year did the backmarker teams switch development to their 2011 cars? Just out of curiosity to see if they're all following suit with last year.

i think lotus stopped around the Brit GP or the one after, Virgin keep going with little developments till quite late on I think. HRT as its known made this years car in 6 weeks starting in december iirc

Peter wrote:I'm not expecting HRT to be beating Lotus from this upgrade. Rather, expecting them to be able to capitalize from their superior reliability, or just from any problems Lotus might run into in the races, or even from superior strategy, as the HRT is very easy on tyres, both drivers able to do 2 or even 1 stop in the races. We'll just have to wait and see.

Speaking of upgrades, someone who has good eyes, what's new on the Hispania this race? They always say for each race that they have some new upgrades and aero parts, and they always do.

True, HRT do seem to have slightly better reliability at the moment (thinking back to Canada, for example), so I agree that they might have a better chance to gain positions through attrition (though, in a chaotic race where attrition is high, sometimes it's sheer luck whether you're still running at the end). I'm not so sure that they are definitely better on their tyres, though - Team Lotus and Virgin Racing have often also run similar strategies to HRT, indicating that they probably are reasonably gentle on their tyres too.

S951 wrote:different rear wing setups on both cars that I've noticed not seem anything else though.

One thing I want to know is that little shark fin they got does it make any difference at all? all it seems to do is flap about loads

It seems that they are trying to copy the small shark fin that Red Bull have used on their car, although the effectiveness of HRT's design has been questioned. There are even a few questions over whether it might be hurting their performance - the flapping motion is probably due to vortex shedding off the trailing edge of the fin, and those vortices could well be disrupting the airflow around the central section of the rear wing.

On another note, during the final practise session, there was an interesting comment from the 5Live team which might, ironically, be answering the old refrain from some of the posters here. They mentioned that there is a strong rumour in the paddock that Colin Kolles might be on the way out, with Geoff Willis promoted from Technical Director to Team Principal within the next few races. At the very least, when Davidson asked the two drivers at HRT about the rumour, it seems that they made no effort to deny the rumours - so that might be worth keeping an eye on...

Mario, you seem a switch on guy on this forum, Geoff Willis to TP, does that make sense and why would Hispania want to get rid of Kolles?

cbbcisace wrote:Mario, you seem a switch on guy on this forum, Geoff Willis to TP, does that make sense and why would Hispania want to get rid of Kolles?

while sadly not being mario, it does sound like an odd move from the top of my head because the cars are supposedly based from kolles' garages in germany - so if kolles was due to no longer be a part of the team then it might mean a big logistical shift for their resources (maybe to spain where some forget the team is supposed to be from).
That aside, it does make sense because Willis is often highly talked of in the F1 paddock and seems to have his head screwed on correctly; whereas Kolles is well known for his "revolving door" driver policy and poor management of funds.

Its believed that Hispania want to set up base close to the 2nd Mercedes wind tunnel.

And I wonder if Willis is promoted to TP then we could expect a bigger team being brought in? Ex Brawn and Red Bull guys are already working with them and then more sponsors will join...

mario wrote:On another note, during the final practise session, there was an interesting comment from the 5Live team which might, ironically, be answering the old refrain from some of the posters here. They mentioned that there is a strong rumour in the paddock that Colin Kolles might be on the way out, with Geoff Willis promoted from Technical Director to Team Principal within the next few races. At the very least, when Davidson asked the two drivers at HRT about the rumour, it seems that they made no effort to deny the rumours - so that might be worth keeping an eye on...

Is Colin Kolles actually about to go home?

patrick wrote:

cbbcisace wrote:Mario, you seem a switch on guy on this forum, Geoff Willis to TP, does that make sense and why would Hispania want to get rid of Kolles?

while sadly not being mario, it does sound like an odd move from the top of my head because the cars are supposedly based from kolles' garages in germany - so if kolles was due to no longer be a part of the team then it might mean a big logistical shift for their resources (maybe to spain where some forget the team is supposed to be from).
That aside, it does make sense because Willis is often highly talked of in the F1 paddock and seems to have his head screwed on correctly; whereas Kolles is well known for his "revolving door" driver policy and poor management of funds.

As I said earlier, it is only a rumour from the 5Live team, so I would take it with a pinch of salt until other sources can provide supporting evidence.
As you say, though, it does seem that there is some slight disquiet about whether Kolles is the right man to manage the team in the longer term; he has done well to hold the team together so far, but has a bit of a reputation for being a difficult man to work with. Equally, on the money side, HRT have flagged a little behind their rivals - signing Villalonga was hailed as a major step, but it's been their rivals at Team Lotus who have been signing the large money deals, and those large Spanish investors that Kolles claimed that they were in talks with have failed to materialise so far.
On the other hand, Willis has served in senior management positions, but almost always as a Technical Director (e.g. at Red Bull) or a related position - I'm sure that in the process he would have developed strong managerial skills, but it'd be a bold decision to replace Kolles with Willis at this point in the season.

But, then again there is this point:

cbbcisace wrote:Its believed that Hispania want to set up base close to the 2nd Mercedes wind tunnel.

It's true that HRT are rumoured to be looking for a new R&D facility near Brackley, which, given their deal to use the Mercedes wind tunnel, would make sense. It'd also have the advantage of being quite close to Grove (Grove is within 35 miles of Brackley, according to Google Maps), where Williams are based - convenient given their current deal to use the Williams transmission.

So, to a certain extent, it looks like HRT are trying to rationalise their resources; with Geoff Willis progressively building up a strong design team (with a number of former Brawn/Mercedes staff, along with former Toyota and Red Bull staff), and most of the parts production being outsourced to specialists (e.g. the Carobtech chassis), perhaps Kolles is no longer as integral to the team as he once was. I don't know if it'd immediately lead to an expansion of the team - more likely there'd be a phase of consolidation as they separate themselves from Kolles - but perhaps there'd be that option in the future.

A dismal weekend for HRT, they said from the beginning that they were having trouble with overheating tyres, lack of traction, and car balance.

Anyway, now the rivalry between HRT and Virgin should start to heat up. Glock said that which ever team is faster depends mainly on the tracks. With HRT bringing themselves a new package for Silverstone, they could very well leapfrog Virgin on pace, and maybe get themselves within striking distance in qualifying of Lotus, for the time being.

who's read about the rumoured toyota engine and kers deal potentially for next year?

Again? Toyota Engine? Really?