Grand Prix Rejects

Posted: **31 Oct 2014, 20:29**

mario wrote:
DanielPT wrote:
Sublime_FA11C wrote:The costs of running extra cars are somewhat offset by extra sponsorship income, but the main draw would be a higher WCC points haul. That's the only way to justify running unsanctioned number of cars per team. A small team running only 2 or even 1 car would be handicapped in terms of scoring points but on the flip side, it would have lower running costs and if the car was any good, it could attract sponsorship or manufacturer support in order to run another car. That said, it's more likely the teams would be forced to run an equal number of cars. I'm not sure which i would prefer.

This "extra sponsorship income" argument in favour of 3 cars is a weak one IMHO. You don't need to look further below those racing in upper midfield to start seeing teams struggling to grab some meaningful sponsorship in order to realise that all bar those at the very front (or manufacturers) will have some issues getting that extra income.

Even relatively major teams have started to struggle for sponsorship - McLaren, as we know, have no title sponsor and have lost a number of large and small sponsors (such as Boss moving to Mercedes), whilst Ferrari have also lost a couple of sponsors in recent years too.

Yes i agree entirely. The "extra sponsorship" is very weak. Though mainly because sponsors have moved away from teams and onto race sponsorship instead and the teams get a piece of the pie based on their WCC results and whatever voodoo is written into the concorde agreements or other contracts. Teams are more reliant on "investors" these days than they are on sponsors and i don't really know how these investments are supposed to work. The amount of sponsor decals on F1 cars today is bewilderingly small when compared to operating budgets.

A 1 car team would still find it cheaper to enter F1 and could possibly "test the water" with a smaller budget. Possibly, and i stress possibly because all this is hypotethical, if the performance was decent compared to their budget, they might attract support or investors that could help them compete at a higher level. If the car turned out to be utter junk maybe the rate of progress could be a gauge of the team's potential for continued existence in the sport. And if they were beyond hope, it would hopefully be a cheaper disaster than what HRT, Marussia and Caterham endured. They were full fledged, professional outfits trying to compete with established teams and no budget cap.

Sponsorship really isnt what it used to be, and attracting any kind of investment is a big headache for all but the strongest teams. Force India was reffered to by Damon Hill as the most efficient team with regard to operating costs vs. achievements, and has been like that for a few years now. That they could give McLaren such a stiff fight for so long is remarkable when you consider that McLaren are one of the biggest spenders in F1. But just like previous years, Force India is forced to split it's limited funds between the current WCC and next year's car, and again just like in the previous years, their decent but very cost effective achievements are not exactly bringing in the cash needed to compete up front though they do have a very handy partnership with Mercedes Benz.

Posted: **01 Nov 2014, 09:04**

Salamander wrote:Jenson Button disagrees.

JBs probably out of F1. He can say what he likes :lol:

Posted: **01 Nov 2014, 19:37**

So...

It's just been speculated on Five Live, during the Austin qualifying, that Marcus "one-man hair gel factory" Ericsson and Giedo "van of the big man in the sky" van der Garde will be Sauber's drivers next year - though the co-commentator said there are a few million reasons why Esteban "Esteban" Gutiérrez might keep his seat instead of one of those.

Either Sauber were genuinely impressed at Ericsson's sudden upswing in form (albeit after Kamui had clearly given up), or they've decided to make themselves the official refuge for Caterham rejects.

Or someone's stretching the truth like Stretch Armstrong.

Posted: **01 Nov 2014, 20:07**

Marcus Ericsson to Sauber is CONFIRMED.

Monisha via Jennie Gow wrote:He did not have an easy rookie season however, he kept calm and Improved. Signing Marcus can give the team a fresh impetus.

Posted: **01 Nov 2014, 20:15**

Ericsson at Sauber next season? I'm OK with this.

Of course, the big question is, who's out of a drive between Guti and Sutil? Sutil has mentioned that he does have a contract for 2015, but as we all well know, contracts in F1 can often mean nothing. And Guti's got a big bag of cash behind him as well...

Posted: **01 Nov 2014, 20:45**

East Londoner wrote:Ericsson at Sauber next season? I'm OK with this.

Of course, the big question is, who's out of a drive between Guti and Sutil? Sutil has mentioned that he does have a contract for 2015, but as we all well know, contracts in F1 can often mean nothing. And Guti's got a big bag of cash behind him as well...

I'd say Sutil's gonna be the one to lose his seat, as Sauber need Gutierrez Gutierrez's money badly.

Posted: **01 Nov 2014, 20:48**

East Londoner wrote:Ericsson at Sauber next season? I'm OK with this.

Of course, the big question is, who's out of a drive between Guti and Sutil? Sutil has mentioned that he does have a contract for 2015, but as we all well know, contracts in F1 can often mean nothing. And Guti's got a big bag of cash behind him as well...

I see Sutil going to WEC, DTM or Formula E. I think he is going to retire from F1 because the events in Suzuka. Also, he knows that will be impossible for him to get in a good car in the next years.

Posted: **01 Nov 2014, 20:54**

Marcus has shown in the last races for Caterham that he upped the ante. Seems like Lotterer beating him in Spa did inspire him...

Posted: **01 Nov 2014, 20:55**

Shizuka wrote:Marcus has shown in the last races for Caterham that he upped the ante. Seems like Lotterer beating him in Spa did inspire him...

Being beaten by the oldest rookie since Count Johnny Carwash would make anyone try to do better.

Posted: **01 Nov 2014, 21:03**

Frogfoot9013 wrote:
Shizuka wrote:Marcus has shown in the last races for Caterham that he upped the ante. Seems like Lotterer beating him in Spa did inspire him...

Being beaten by the oldest rookie since Count Johnny Carwash would make anyone try to do better.

That's hardly a fair comparison. Giovanni was a pay driver, while Andre Lotterer is one of the greatest drivers of this generation. Expecting Ericsson to be a match for Lotterer was an unfair expectation on the lad's shoulders. It'd be like expecting Montermini to be faster than Colin McRae. Totally unrealistic!

Posted: **01 Nov 2014, 21:04**

GwilymJJames wrote:Marcus Ericsson to Sauber is CONFIRMED.

Monisha via Jennie Gow wrote:He did not have an easy rookie season however, he kept calm and Improved. Signing Marcus can give the team a fresh impetus.

More like fresh equity than a fresh impetus...

OK, that is perhaps a touch harsh - Ericsson does seem to have begun picking up his pace, although how much that owed to having updates on his car that Kobayashi didn't (his crash in the practise sessions for the Japanese GP destroyed the new parts and the Russian customs authorities banned all teams from bringing new parts to Sochi) is open to question.

As others have said, out of the two drivers it looks like Sutil will probably be the one departing the team - not only does Gutierrez have more financial backing, it also has to be said that Sutil hasn't really consistently performed at the sort of level that would be expected for a driver of his experience and qualifications.
Yes, on balance Sutil has beaten Gutierrez more often, but not dominantly so (5-3 in Sutil's favour), and arguably Gutierrez may have come closer to scoring points in some races than Sutil (Gutierrez was running in points paying positions in both the Hungarian and Singapore GP's before, in both instances, being sidelined due to mechanical issues).
Furthermore, as others have commented, given how visibly distressed Sutil was after the Japanese GP, it would be fully understandable if the shock of the accident had destroyed much of his earlier enthusiasm for the sport and has made him reconsider his options anyway.

Posted: **01 Nov 2014, 21:11**

mario wrote:
GwilymJJames wrote:Marcus Ericsson to Sauber is CONFIRMED.

Monisha via Jennie Gow wrote:He did not have an easy rookie season however, he kept calm and Improved. Signing Marcus can give the team a fresh impetus.

More like fresh equity than a fresh impetus...

OK, that is perhaps a touch harsh - Ericsson does seem to have begun picking up his pace, although how much that owed to having updates on his car that Kobayashi didn't (his crash in the practise sessions for the Japanese GP destroyed the new parts and the Russian customs authorities banned all teams from bringing new parts to Sochi) is open to question.

As others have said, out of the two drivers it looks like Sutil will probably be the one departing the team - not only does Gutierrez have more financial backing, it also has to be said that Sutil hasn't really consistently performed at the sort of level that would be expected for a driver of his experience and qualifications.
Yes, on balance Sutil has beaten Gutierrez more often, but not dominantly so (5-3 in Sutil's favour), and arguably Gutierrez may have come closer to scoring points in some races than Sutil (Gutierrez was running in points paying positions in both the Hungarian and Singapore GP's before, in both instances, being sidelined due to mechanical issues).
Furthermore, as others have commented, given how visibly distressed Sutil was after the Japanese GP, it would be fully understandable if the shock of the accident had destroyed much of his earlier enthusiasm for the sport and has made him reconsider his options anyway.

Don't forget Monaco where Gutierrez binned it when in the points

I think on balance Ericsson shouldn't have got the drive as he has usually been the slowest driver on the grid and he's made a lot of errors and crashes which have added to Caterham's financial woes. However his recent improvement has been noteworthy. He's comfortably beaten Chilton recently and hung on to the lotuses at times too. If he can build on that then he could become a solid driver

Posted: **01 Nov 2014, 21:18**

Ericsson confirmed and rumours are Van der Gard are joining Sauber next year. Better than Sutil, I guess. Ericsson was good in last few races but it's his money that is getting the seat.

Hope Gutierrez finds a seat. Doesn't look like any seats are available if you consider Marussia and Caterham do not make it back.

Lotus have confirmed drivers and Force India will need 2nd pay driver since 1st is gone to Hulk.

Posted: **01 Nov 2014, 21:18**

TheFlyingCaterham wrote:
Zetec wrote:Ericsson will be driving for Sauber in 2015 and is rumoured to bring around 20 millions dollars of money for the seat! It's a big headline in the morning newspaper over here.

Autosport or it didnt happen...

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/116581

Posted: **01 Nov 2014, 23:28**

Nin13 wrote:Hope Gutierrez finds a seat. Doesn't look like any seats are available if you consider Marussia and Caterham do not make it back.

Nah, Gutierrez isn't F1 material. Even Sutil's beating him.

Nin13 wrote:Lotus have confirmed drivers and Force India will need 2nd pay driver since 1st is gone to Hulk.

They'll keep Perez, there's no reason for them to change it. Force India don't really have any financial issues; the media's blown it completely out of proportion trying to sniff around for clickbait.

Posted: **01 Nov 2014, 23:30**

Ataxia wrote:
Nin13 wrote:Hope Gutierrez finds a seat. Doesn't look like any seats are available if you consider Marussia and Caterham do not make it back.

Nah, Gutierrez isn't F1 material. Even Sutil's beating him.

These days, "F1 material" means "carrying enough cash". By that standard, he's just fine.

Posted: **01 Nov 2014, 23:31**

Cynon wrote:
Ataxia wrote:
Nin13 wrote:Hope Gutierrez finds a seat. Doesn't look like any seats are available if you consider Marussia and Caterham do not make it back.

Nah, Gutierrez isn't F1 material. Even Sutil's beating him.

These days, "F1 material" means "carrying enough cash". By that standard, he's just fine.

So, in other words, The Reverend is an F1 Legend?

Posted: **02 Nov 2014, 05:43**

Well, despite Ericsson doing better in last few races, I wouldn´t call that an upgrade regardless of which one of the current drivers he´s going to replace but then again, I do believe that money was the key here so fair enough. And to be fair, I doubt that Ericsson would do much worse than Sutil or Gutierrez either.

By the way, bit out of the point here but is Ericsson the first (and only unless Van der Garde gets a spot too) driver that managed to get a spot in other team after being in Marussia/Caterham/HRT? I do remember Kovalainen getting two races on Lotus but that was simply because they needed replament to Kimi and Pic did move from Marussia to Caterham but I can´t think anyone who would have gotten recular spot in other team. And with decent drivers like Kovalainen, Trulli, Petrov, Glock and Kobayashi there I find Ericsson getting a seat on Sauber a bit of an achievement even if it´s more because of money he brings rather than he´s driving skills.

Posted: **02 Nov 2014, 06:20**

Zergon wrote:Well, despite Ericsson doing better in last few races, I wouldn´t call that an upgrade regardless of which one of the current drivers he´s going to replace but then again, I do believe that money was the key here so fair enough. And to be fair, I doubt that Ericsson would do much worse than Sutil or Gutierrez either.

By the way, bit out of the point here but is Ericsson the first (and only unless Van der Garde gets a spot too) driver that managed to get a spot in other team after being in Marussia/Caterham/HRT? I do remember Kovalainen getting two races on Lotus but that was simply because they needed replament to Kimi and Pic did move from Marussia to Caterham but I can´t think anyone who would have gotten recular spot in other team. And with decent drivers like Kovalainen, Trulli, Petrov, Glock and Kobayashi there I find Ericsson getting a seat on Sauber a bit of an achievement even if it´s more because of money he brings rather than he´s driving skills.

Ricciardo drove for HRT for the second half of 2011

Posted: **02 Nov 2014, 06:35**

Watching WEC round at Shanghai, and the commentators claim they have it on good authority that Hulkenberg will be released by Force India to race in the third Porsche at Le Mans next season. Could be a load of hot air, but then again, with the rumours of race boycotts and drastic action by struggling teams, coupled with Hulkenbergs precedent with Sauber...

Posted: **02 Nov 2014, 06:53**

TheFlyingCaterham wrote:Ricciardo drove for HRT for the second half of 2011

Had to Google that one but yeah your right. And after looking Wikipedia a bit more closely I also found that Bruno Senna did drive Hispania/HRT back in 2010 and then moved to Lotus (2011, did only race last 8 races with them) and Williams (2012) after that so he would be second guy to do so. :oops:

Posted: **02 Nov 2014, 07:09**

It's okay that you forgot about Bruno Senna. I think most of us have tried to.

Posted: **02 Nov 2014, 10:14**

Frogfoot9013 wrote:
Cynon wrote:
Ataxia wrote:Nah, Gutierrez isn't F1 material. Even Sutil's beating him.

These days, "F1 material" means "carrying enough cash". By that standard, he's just fine.

So, in other words, The Reverend is an F1 Legend?

He's a legend in rejectdom if nothing else. So yes.

Posted: **02 Nov 2014, 10:45**

Zergon wrote:
TheFlyingCaterham wrote:Ricciardo drove for HRT for the second half of 2011

Had to Google that one but yeah your right. And after looking Wikipedia a bit more closely I also found that Bruno Senna did drive Hispania/HRT back in 2010 and then moved to Lotus (2011, did only race last 8 races with them) and Williams (2012) after that so he would be second guy to do so.

Karun Chandok also went from HRT in 2010 to Team Enstone in 2011 for one race in Germany.

Posted: **02 Nov 2014, 10:58**

dr-baker wrote:Karun Chandok also went from HRT in 2010 to Team Enstone in 2011 for one race in Germany.

Hate to be "that guy", but I think you're confusing Lotus-Renault with Proper-Lotus.

Posted: **02 Nov 2014, 12:17**

Biscione wrote:
Frogfoot9013 wrote:
Shizuka wrote:Marcus has shown in the last races for Caterham that he upped the ante. Seems like Lotterer beating him in Spa did inspire him...

Being beaten by the oldest rookie since Count Johnny Carwash would make anyone try to do better.

That's hardly a fair comparison. Giovanni was a pay driver, while Andre Lotterer is one of the greatest drivers of this generation. Expecting Ericsson to be a match for Lotterer was an unfair expectation on the lad's shoulders. It'd be like expecting Montermini to be faster than Colin McRae. Totally unrealistic!

Allan McNish in 2002 was older than Lotterer wasn't he?

Posted: **02 Nov 2014, 12:22**

James1978 wrote:Allan McNish in 2002 was older than Lotterer wasn't he?

McNish was older than Lotterer. :oops:

Posted: **02 Nov 2014, 14:05**

Frogfoot9013 wrote:
James1978 wrote:Allan McNish in 2002 was older than Lotterer wasn't he?

McNish was older than Lotterer.

Actually Lotterer was older than McNish was. Allan made his debut aged 32 years and 2 months. André was 32 years and 9 months. :ugeek:

Posted: **02 Nov 2014, 14:07**

Simtek wrote:
Frogfoot9013 wrote:
James1978 wrote:Allan McNish in 2002 was older than Lotterer wasn't he?

McNish was older than Lotterer.

Actually Lotterer was older than McNish was. Allan made his debut aged 32 years and 2 months old. André was 32 years and 9 months.

I am such an eejit. :oops:

Posted: **02 Nov 2014, 14:09**

Frogfoot9013 wrote:I am such an eejit.

Don't be too hard on yourself, you got it right the first time!

Posted: **02 Nov 2014, 14:11**

Simtek wrote:
Frogfoot9013 wrote:I am such an eejit.

Don't be too hard on yourself, you got it right the first time!

That sort of thing happens to me all the time.

Posted: **02 Nov 2014, 14:58**

Mexicola wrote:
dr-baker wrote:Karun Chandok also went from HRT in 2010 to Team Enstone in 2011 for one race in Germany.

Hate to be "that guy", but I think you're confusing Lotus-Renault with Proper-Lotus.

Frogfoot9013 wrote:I am such an eejit.

Looks like I know what it feels like to be an eejit too!

Posted: **03 Nov 2014, 13:31**

Nin13 wrote:Ericsson confirmed and rumours are Van der Gard are joining Sauber next year. Better than Sutil, I guess. Ericsson was good in last few races but it's his money that is getting the seat.

Hope Gutierrez finds a seat. Doesn't look like any seats are available if you consider Marussia and Caterham do not make it back.

Lotus have confirmed drivers and Force India will need 2nd pay driver since 1st is gone to Hulk.

Didn't think that it would be possible for Sauber to have a driver line up with less talent than this year, but they seem to have done it if van der Garde and Ericsson get the seats. I'm perhaps writing them off too early as they've never had a decent car at their disposal in F1 (not that Sauber are likely to give them one, mind), but they were basically GP2 no-hopers when brought into F1 and neither have really shown brilliant pace (put aside Spa; van der Garde lost his head to head qualifying against Charles Pic). Makes you wonder if Sauber are past the point of no return in terms of competitiveness.

Posted: **03 Nov 2014, 13:34**

watka wrote: Makes you wonder if Sauber are past the point of no return in terms of competitiveness.

It took Williams are long, long time to claw back to where they are today (and that comeback feels somewhat fragile and transient to me) and Sauber are in a worse position than that so....

Posted: **04 Nov 2014, 00:54**

Verstappen wants JEV to be his teammate next year: http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/ ... 16575.html

Posted: **04 Nov 2014, 02:54**

Simtek wrote:Verstappen wants JEV to be his teammate next year: http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/ ... 16575.html

This would be a good thing, IMO.

Posted: **04 Nov 2014, 04:40**

Makes sense to have a bit of (relative) experience in the team, plus Verstappen would know that Vergne is both a known quantity to judge himself against, and at the same time very unlikely to go ahead of him in the queue for a future Red Bull seat.

Posted: **04 Nov 2014, 07:31**

Yeah yeah, I know: Autosport or it didn't happend.

BUT:

Big story again in local swiss newspaper this morning: Aloson has finally signed at McLaren.

Roughly translated:

The two-time world champion Fernando Alonso left Ferrari to commit for two years at McLaren-Honda. He then has an option for another year, if he can win races at McLaren.
For GP-senior Jenson Button (soon 35) this means the end. The 2009 World Champion at Brawn is after 265 races and 15 wins on the blacklist, because McLaren opts for the youth of Kevin Magnussen (22).

Posted: **04 Nov 2014, 08:39**

Zetec wrote:Yeah yeah, I know: Autosport or it didn't happend.

BUT:

Big story again in local swiss newspaper this morning: Aloson has finally signed at McLaren.

Roughly translated:

The two-time world champion Fernando Alonso left Ferrari to commit for two years at McLaren-Honda. He then has an option for another year, if he can win races at McLaren.
For GP-senior Jenson Button (soon 35) this means the end. The 2009 World Champion at Brawn is after 265 races and 15 wins on the blacklist, because McLaren opts for the youth of Kevin Magnussen (22).

Firstly, only people who lack imagination are still using A.O.I.D.H. so don't worry. Secondly, I think its a dead cert now.

Posted: **04 Nov 2014, 08:59**

Enstone drops Renault engines in favor of Mercedes units for 2015.
Meanwhile Viry-Chatillion seeks out for help of an ex-Merc engineer in order to squeeze a bit more from their wheezer.

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