Grand Prix Rejects

Following the race, I will add my Red Bull Racing vote to the pile, for reasons that have been amply explained by other posters.

fjackdaw wrote:The Button-haters
Everyone gleefully rubbing their hands at the prospect of Button being ROTY, being trounced by his team-mate, getting shown up for the mid-field struggler he apparently is, and leaving the sport in humiliation before the end of the year; and those who delightedly proclaimed Bahrain qualifying as proof of all this. Close the door on your way out.

Could still happen - this was an extraordinary race which played into Button's strengths. He won't be this lucky again...

noisebox wrote:

fjackdaw wrote:The Button-haters
Everyone gleefully rubbing their hands at the prospect of Button being ROTY, being trounced by his team-mate, getting shown up for the mid-field struggler he apparently is, and leaving the sport in humiliation before the end of the year; and those who delightedly proclaimed Bahrain qualifying as proof of all this. Close the door on your way out.

Could still happen - this was an extraordinary race which played into Button's strengths. He won't be this lucky again...

Don't be too hasty... BAR used to be Villeneuve's team before Button turned up. It quickly became Button's and ruined Villeneuve's career (if it wasn't already at that point).

dr-baker wrote:

noisebox wrote:

fjackdaw wrote:The Button-haters
Everyone gleefully rubbing their hands at the prospect of Button being ROTY, being trounced by his team-mate, getting shown up for the mid-field struggler he apparently is, and leaving the sport in humiliation before the end of the year; and those who delightedly proclaimed Bahrain qualifying as proof of all this. Close the door on your way out.

Could still happen - this was an extraordinary race which played into Button's strengths. He won't be this lucky again...

Don't be too hasty... BAR used to be Villeneuve's team before Button turned up. It quickly became Button's and ruined Villeneuve's career (if it wasn't already at that point).

Speaking of Villeneuve, last night I had a dream in which I met Zoran Stefanovic in a cave deep below the ocean. He was wearing a strangely decorated green gown and was carrying a beheaded chicken in his left hand, and told me Villeneuve will return to F1 next season and win the 2013 World Championship with Ferrari.
(No, not really.)

dr-baker wrote:

noisebox wrote:

fjackdaw wrote:The Button-haters
Everyone gleefully rubbing their hands at the prospect of Button being ROTY, being trounced by his team-mate, getting shown up for the mid-field struggler he apparently is, and leaving the sport in humiliation before the end of the year; and those who delightedly proclaimed Bahrain qualifying as proof of all this. Close the door on your way out.

Could still happen - this was an extraordinary race which played into Button's strengths. He won't be this lucky again...

Don't be too hasty... BAR used to be Villeneuve's team before Button turned up. It quickly became Button's and ruined Villeneuve's career (if it wasn't already at that point).

Button, the slayer of ex-champions

Red Bull Racing, in general. First Vettel's brake failure (which also resulted in Rosberg having to back down from overtaking Hamilton), and then there was Webber.

Not forgetting hydraulics, which were again a reason for a couple of retirements and a DNS. ROTFFROTS anyone (Reject Of The First Few Races Of The Season)?

ROTR - Everyone in Red Bull Racing who isn't called "Sebastien Vettel" - Disaster of a race for Red Bull. Leaving Webber out a lap too long, who then proceded to 'compensate' with some overdriving. And a mechanical failure knocking Vettel out of a probable victory. Wonder will they rue this come end of season.

Kobayashi's front wing - Taking out three drivers was bad enough, but it could've killed someone in different circumstances. I'm just stunned they didn't pull de la Rosa off the road afterwards.

fjackdaw wrote:The Button-haters
Everyone gleefully rubbing their hands at the prospect of Button being ROTY, being trounced by his team-mate, getting shown up for the mid-field struggler he apparently is, and leaving the sport in humiliation before the end of the year; and those who delightedly proclaimed Bahrain qualifying as proof of all this. Close the door on your way out.

+1, really pleased he managed to get this win so early, he drove a brilliant race.

RAK wrote:Red Bull reliability: Two motor-scooters for Vettel, but no ability to convert those to high-scoring positions.

yes! God I love Clive James on the F1 season reviews, why did he only do the 3...?

Bronze Medal: Sauber front wings. Whether it's a design problem or an issue with Kamui's unique lines through some of the corners, the car appears to be unsafe. I just hope they're not taking unnecessary risks to try to get a company logo on the sidepods.

Silver Medal: Lewis Hamilton's attitude. Like he said, he drove his heart out. I've never been less impressed with a brilliant drive than I was with Lewis today. He made great passes and he drove with passion and determination. But champion drivers do not call out their team like that, ever. He needs to grow up quickly or else he could turn into Alonso 2007 in a hurry.

Gold Medal: Red Bull. I don't understand the decision to keep Webber out an extra lap. Pit stops are 3 seconds now, and there was enough of a gap to service both cars when Vettel came in. I also don't understand why they brought Webber in with one lap to go. He lost much more time with the stop than if he just did a lap with no front wing. Unlike Kobayashi, he would have known he had an aerodynamic imperfection. As for Vettel's brakes, I'm shocked that Red Bull's pre-season wind tunnel testing, in lieu of actual track time, failed to reveal that something like this could happen.

fjackdaw wrote:The Button-haters
Everyone gleefully rubbing their hands at the prospect of Button being ROTY, being trounced by his team-mate, getting shown up for the mid-field struggler he apparently is, and leaving the sport in humiliation before the end of the year; and those who delightedly proclaimed Bahrain qualifying as proof of all this. Close the door on your way out.

I'm neither a fan of Button or Lewis, so it's win-win for me.

On balance though, I'd love it if Button beat Hamilton this season. Love it.

noisebox wrote:

fjackdaw wrote:The Button-haters
Everyone gleefully rubbing their hands at the prospect of Button being ROTY, being trounced by his team-mate, getting shown up for the mid-field struggler he apparently is, and leaving the sport in humiliation before the end of the year; and those who delightedly proclaimed Bahrain qualifying as proof of all this. Close the door on your way out.

Could still happen - this was an extraordinary race which played into Button's strengths. He won't be this lucky again...

I wouldn't bet on it. In an era where tyre preservation is key, Button could well turn out to be king. I still reckon Vettel and Alonso for the ultimate pace, but the point is that Button won't be the reject so many people imagined, and I think he'll have the measure of Hamilton as much as Hamilton will have that measure of him, if not more. He's better on tyres and is psychologically stronger.

I'm going to suggest Lewis Hamilton. The team might have been the one to make the call to bring him in for a second stop, but Hamilton has a habit of doing what the team tells him to do. In comparison, Jenson Button made the call to go to options himself; Brundle and Legard noted that the team was still in the garage when Button hit the lane, that's how late he made the call. Hamilton's inability to think ahead cost him a potential second place.

AllAmericanReject wrote:Pit stops are 3 seconds now, and there was enough of a gap to service both cars when Vettel came in.

Did you see Renault's stop? They brought Kubica and Petrov in at the same time, and they had enough time to cook a roast between Kubica exiting and Petrov entering - even with everyone in the slow lane.

AllAmericanReject wrote: As for Vettel's brakes, I'm shocked that Red Bull's pre-season wind tunnel testing, in lieu of actual track time, failed to reveal that something like this could happen.

Eh? How do you test for brake reliability in a wind tunnel??

For me, ROTR is Schumacher - While Alonso battled his way back up the field to 4th, the 7 time world champion got stuck behind Jaime Alguersuari for pretty much the entire race. Any more performances like this and the Schumacher comeback is going to be as big a fail as I was hoping it would be.

Ross Prawn wrote:Eh? How do you test for brake reliability in a wind tunnel??

Basically, if the car blows away when you turn the fans on then the brakes are shite.

Ross Prawn wrote:

AllAmericanReject wrote: As for Vettel's brakes, I'm shocked that Red Bull's pre-season wind tunnel testing, in lieu of actual track time, failed to reveal that something like this could happen.

Eh? How do you test for brake reliability in a wind tunnel??

I would say that he is suggesting that Red Bull should have gone to all of the test sessions, instead of skipping the first session and spending more time developing the car in the wind tunnel. However, to be fair to them, we can't say for certain that the part which failed was designed and manufactured in house. In fact, it could well be the case that a manufacturing error was the problem. For example, remember Hamilton at Abu Dhabi last year - the team found out later that the brake pad itself was at fault - a manufacturing defect meant that the brake pad material was too soft, once the outer surface had worn away, which meant that the brake wear shot up after a few laps. Certainly, Vettel's problems at Bahrein were down to parts supplied by a third party (the spark plugs).
But Red Bull are going to have to tighten up on their quality control measures - their mistakes have already cost them very dearly, as Vettel would comfortably be leading the WDC otherwise. Instead, he is 25 points adrift (and Webber is even further behind). They also need to improve their strategy calls - they have let themselves be outwitted by the other teams, and always seem to react too slowly (Australia was the prime example - they should have stopped Webber first, to prevent him being shuffled backwards into the pack (as Vettel had track position and a time advantage), and both Webber and Vettel should have stopped as soon as everybody else started coming in). If they think that they are now able to compete with the big teams, they need to behave like one - Ferrari didn't make that mistake, and Mclaren were able to react to Button and his quick thinking.
Speaking of which, Webber's weekend just got worse with this http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/82506 - an official reprimand from the stewards, who took a rather dim view of his incident with Hamilton.

[EDIT] Looks like it was Red Bull's fault after all, but down to human error instead of mechanical problems. http://f1.gpupdate.net/en/formula-1-new ... ys-vettel/
According to Vettel's comments here, it was an incorrectly mounted wheel which caused the damage to the brakes (what exactly was damaged is not mentioned, but I would guess that it is more likely to be the calliper instead of the brake disk itself). Looks like they might have tried to rush that tyre stop a bit too much...

Pedro De La Rosa - That was an appalling performance. I'm not sure I've seen so many cars overtake one driver in a Grand Prix since Marcus Winkelhock started on pole for Spyker at that restarted race at Nurburgring. And given the huge caveats, that's even more embarrassing.

I'll start with de la Rosa. He was slow, slow, slow during the race and through away a point paying position. All that I ever saw of him during the race was him being overtaken

Mmm.

It's amazing the amount of reasonably competent drivers in new/reject teams, or worse, not in Formula 1 at all while a midfield team like Sauber can employ someone who blatantly would rather be testing than racing other drivers. If he's anything like this for the rest of the season Sauber can forget about DLR getting them many points. At this rate DLR only stands for Don't Like Racing.

My vote goes to the Mark Webber Stand. I'm going to be the first to admit that I have no real justification for this.

This race will be remembered for all the reason that the last one will not be. Incidents ranging from crashes, failures, mistakes, weather, good/bad calls and the list could go on. So I say that there are no failures this weekend, not even heroic ones. Except for the Mark Webber Stand dam you and your ego.
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Reserve goes to Schumacher for still being a git.

The crazed spanish tifosi, for flooding the forums of 'Gazzetta Dello Sport' saying that Massa was holding Alonso (he really had a better pace) and claiming a position change from Domenicalli.

I can;t believe that some's made a spanish inquisition demotivator and Got the quote wrong.

There was some serious competitoni for both reject and IID this time around, not many people had an unremarkable evening of it. Even Massa had a good tussle with his team-mate and that lightning start.

Anyway, for Reject, I'm'a go for Schumacher. As others have said, just compare his performance to that of Alonso. How many more races before his "neck injury recurs"?

fjackdaw wrote:The aero rules
As the last few laps showed, this race was probably only really exciting because of the weather conditions. It could well have been another procession. I'm hoping Malaysia will prove me wrong, but Hamilton should have been able to eat those Ferraris for breakfast, and couldn't do a thing about them.

Worthy of an honorable mention. It could probably explain Schumi getting held up by Alguersuari, as well...

XurizManson wrote:The crazed spanish tifosi, for flooding the forums of 'Gazzetta Dello Sport' saying that Massa was holding Alonso (he really had a better pace) and claiming a position change from Domenicalli.

Ah meu Deus! It's quite funny to read a combination of badly written italian plus inverted punctuation marks... a telltale sign! Thanks for pointing it out...

Maybe I should start spamming Marca and AS with felipista messages

Captain Hammer wrote:I'm going to suggest Lewis Hamilton. The team might have been the one to make the call to bring him in for a second stop, but Hamilton has a habit of doing what the team tells him to do. In comparison, Jenson Button made the call to go to options himself; Brundle and Legard noted that the team was still in the garage when Button hit the lane, that's how late he made the call. Hamilton's inability to think ahead cost him a potential second place.

Yikes, I agree with the Captain on something.
Mentioned exactly this to a certain Welsh member of the forum just after the race...

Webber.

Why do most people seem to skip over the fact that he rammed Hamilton off the track twice, once at turn 3 and once at the same corner Vettel's brakes failed. Did you miss it through advert brake or something because it seems odd not to mention it. To me the first crash, though much less damage was caused, was way more infuriating because it was more deliberate then the second and shows Webber is an over aggresive P***k to be honest. Ive seem people nominate 3 different thing and not Webber, this bias in this forum is ridiculos almost to the extent of the Hamilton bashing.

Shadaza wrote:Webber.

Why do most people seem to skip over the fact that he rammed Hamilton off the track twice, once at turn 3 and once at the same corner Vettel's brakes failed. Did you miss it through advert brake or something because it seems odd not to mention it. To me the first crash, though much less damage was caused, was way more infuriating because it was more deliberate then the second and shows Webber is an over aggresive P***k to be honest. Ive seem people nominate 3 different thing and not Webber, this bias in this forum is ridiculos almost to the extent of the Hamilton bashing.

Um, what? I don't see any Hamilton-bashing here. Webber's one of the most nominated, if not the most nominated, entity here.

Shadaza wrote:Ive seem people nominate 3 different thing and not Webber, this bias in this forum is ridiculos almost to the extent of the Hamilton bashing.

Of the 49 post-race posts that included nominations in this thread Webber has been singled out roughly 22 times (not counting posts that didn't mention him at some point by name), putting him at 45% well ahead of every other contender, the second and third places looking to be between Schumacher and Saubers front wing. Rough figures only, if anyones bored enough to double check go ahead
But by all means, go ahead and get upset over an imagined injustice.

*edit - Come to think of it, Red Bull is the most nominated. I counted any Red Bull nomination that specically mentioned Webber as a Webber nomination.

Tealy wrote:For me, ROTR is Schumacher - While Alonso battled his way back up the field to 4th, the 7 time world champion got stuck behind Jaime Alguersuari for pretty much the entire race. Any more performances like this and the Schumacher comeback is going to be as big a fail as I was hoping it would be.

Well, we do not know if the car was a bit damaged or not after T1...

Cynon wrote:

fjackdaw wrote:The aero rules
As the last few laps showed, this race was probably only really exciting because of the weather conditions. It could well have been another procession. I'm hoping Malaysia will prove me wrong, but Hamilton should have been able to eat those Ferraris for breakfast, and couldn't do a thing about them.

Worthy of an honorable mention. It could probably explain Schumi getting held up by Alguersuari, as well...

It's going to be ROTY at this rate.

Myrvold wrote:

Tealy wrote:For me, ROTR is Schumacher - While Alonso battled his way back up the field to 4th, the 7 time world champion got stuck behind Jaime Alguersuari for pretty much the entire race. Any more performances like this and the Schumacher comeback is going to be as big a fail as I was hoping it would be.

Well, we do not know if the car was a bit damaged or not after T1...

And, let us be blunt about this, Alonso is also driving a Ferrari which is probably the best part of 0.5s/lap faster then Schumacher's Mercedes (if not even faster), given how quick the F10 is in race trim. So even before we consider the possibility of damage, we must also bear in mind that Schumacher was always going to have less of a performance advantage (and thus less chance of passing cars) - not to mention a very slow first pit stop (as the team had to wait to let other cars through).

Shadaza wrote:Why do most people seem to skip over the fact that he rammed Hamilton off the track twice, once at turn 3 and once at the same corner Vettel's brakes failed.

Wasn't it Hamilton who pushed Webber off there? I remember because it was just after an ad break and the Australian commentators hadn't switched over to the BBC and started shouting "OH, NO! WEBBER IS OUT! AUSTRALIA'S MARK WEBBER IS OUT OF THE RACE!" before composing themselves when they realised Webber was getting back onto the track (and probably making some comment about how this didn't really affect his long-term strategy).

Webber.

He's the original Hamilton basher...

mario wrote:

Myrvold wrote:

Tealy wrote:For me, ROTR is Schumacher - While Alonso battled his way back up the field to 4th, the 7 time world champion got stuck behind Jaime Alguersuari for pretty much the entire race. Any more performances like this and the Schumacher comeback is going to be as big a fail as I was hoping it would be.

Well, we do not know if the car was a bit damaged or not after T1...

And, let us be blunt about this, Alonso is also driving a Ferrari which is probably the best part of 0.5s/lap faster then Schumacher's Mercedes (if not even faster), given how quick the F10 is in race trim. So even before we consider the possibility of damage, we must also bear in mind that Schumacher was always going to have less of a performance advantage (and thus less chance of passing cars) - not to mention a very slow first pit stop (as the team had to wait to let other cars through).

Ok I'll give you that but to be caught behind Alguersuari (who is not expected to be any competition to the "best driver ever" Schumacher) in a Toro Rosso (which is a decent amount slower than the Mercades) for the better part of 30 laps is absolutely dreadful. If he didn't have any lasting damage then IMO he has no excuse.

With regard to how long Schumacher will last before a "neck injury" sidelines him. My bet is the first anti-clockwise race of this season if his performances don't improve.

Tealy wrote:Ok I'll give you that but to be caught behind Alguersuari (who is not expected to be any competition to the "best driver ever" Schumacher) in a Toro Rosso (which is a decent amount slower than the Mercades) for the better part of 30 laps is absolutely dreadful. If he didn't have any lasting damage then IMO he has no excuse.

You do realise that Schumacher did, in fact, overtake Alguersuari? Twice, yeah?

The difference between Alguersuari's fastest lap, and the fastest race lap set by any Mercedes (being Rosberg) is 1.3s. And Rosberg set that with late(ish) in the race with an almost completely dry racing line on fresh tires. Alguersuari was on tires that were about 40 laps old by the time the track was that dry, so the difference in race pace between the Torro Rosso and Merc is probably a bit less than 1.3 seconds.

For comparison, Hamilton caught Kubica hand over fist, probably by more than a second a lap, once he cleared Massa mid-race, but couldn't actually get past. He didn't even look like getting past. So, even being 1+ second faster than someone doesn't equate to being able to waltz past as soon as you get to the back of him.

Some of you make very convincing arguments in defence of Michael, but I am sticking with my vote of Michael Schumacher.

For me, reject of the race is about falling well short of expectations. Schumacher is a seven time champion, statistically the greatest driver ever to race in F1. He is driving for Mercedes GP, a full works team who, under a different name but with the same technical set up, won both world championships last season. His team mate is a 5th year driver who has never won a grand prix. The conditions were changeable, which traditionally neutralises some shortcomings of the car, and are conditions that Schumacher himself is reknowned for being good in.

Despite all this, he qualified behind his team mate and limped home 10th, reject worthy in my book.

IdeFan wrote:Some of you make very convincing arguments in defence of Michael, but I am sticking with my vote of Michael Schumacher.

For me, reject of the race is about falling well short of expectations. Schumacher is a seven time champion, statistically the greatest driver ever to race in F1. He is driving for Mercedes GP, a full works team who, under a different name but with the same technical set up, won both world championships last season. His team mate is a 5th year driver who has never won a grand prix. The conditions were changeable, which traditionally neutralises some shortcomings of the car, and are conditions that Schumacher himself is reknowned for being good in.

Despite all this, he qualified behind his team mate and limped home 10th, reject worthy in my book.

Michale was a disappointment for sure and he even failed to win the Reject Award as Australia's Mark Webber simply produced a howler of a race

Wizzie wrote:

danardif1 wrote:Mine will be between Mark Webber and Red Bull... contraversial I know regarding the origin of this forum...

Controversial? Mate almost everyone here is voting Webber/RBR to be ROTR

Me included. Again, they had the fastest car but failed to maximise due to poor reliability and assorted mishaps. However, perhaps Red Bull wouldn't be such a candidate if it wasn't for the poor showing in Bahrain, which rather defeats the purpose of the ROTR.

So, I am voting for Virgin instead. It's not just because of their performance in the race - although they are quickly being caught up by HRT and dropped by Lotus, neither of which bodes well for the future - but also because the monumental cock-up with the fuel tank capacity. The fact that everyone is saying it does not matter because the car wouldn't finish a race anyway just serves to underline a truly rejectful showing.

1-Webber. I've only saw the last 10 laps of the race, but that was enough to take my decision.
2-Schumacher. He was not supposed to be so low (this statement contains 50% of irony).

Captain Hammer wrote:

Shadaza wrote:Why do most people seem to skip over the fact that he rammed Hamilton off the track twice, once at turn 3 and once at the same corner Vettel's brakes failed.

Wasn't it Hamilton who pushed Webber off there? I remember because it was just after an ad break and the Australian commentators hadn't switched over to the BBC and started shouting "OH, NO! WEBBER IS OUT! AUSTRALIA'S MARK WEBBER IS OUT OF THE RACE!" before composing themselves when they realised Webber was getting back onto the track (and probably making some comment about how this didn't really affect his long-term strategy).

No, I'm pretty much sure it was Webber's fault both times.