Grand Prix Rejects

fjackdaw wrote:I can understand being against Hamilton, cos he's a proven cheat and a bit of a bad sport, but Button seems very nice and can't help being English! And I say this coming from a Scots family.

I'm a big Takuma Sato fan and old habits die hard. I'm still a bit hurt by 2005 when BAR seemed to produce a car that catered only to Button.

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:You may have a point about the blind spots, but Vettel could not have possibly thought that he would have cleared Webber by that point - he wasn't that much faster. Keeping in mind all he really had to do was stay on the inside, turning to the right, knowing that Webber did not give him plenty of room in the first place, was extremely reckless of him, at least in my view.

But he did know that he had the racing line. And as Button proved a few lap later, holding the centr of the road is better for the corners after turn twelve. Racing drivers don't just think about the one corner ahead: they plan all of them.

Anyway, my point is not that Vettel was clearly ahead of Webber, it's that he had no way of knowing exactly where Webber was relative to himself until they collided.

fjackdaw wrote:Being automatically contrary is just another form a groupthink, and holding the same opinion as other people isn't necessarily groupthink!

There's a difference between being automatically contrary and disagreeing with arguments to back your case up.

Just because we all know that Vettel is gonna win this....

...I nominate FERRARI: they gave up the development of the car very early last year to focus on this year's, fired the "lazy, with no development abilities" guy, hired the Messiah and they are still WAY behind (The Messiah himself admitted that they are at Renault's level!!! WTH?).

For their 800th GP it's just SAD !

Has to be Vettell. Basically he lost it during the manoeuver and broke rule #1. (And lets face it, we are not likely to be able to nominate Vettell for ROTR that often.)

I could also mention Jenson Button. Obviously he defied team orders in making a move on Lewis whilst they had both been instructed to slow down. Despite the best efforts of the McClaren publissocrap team to gloss over the issue, Lewis was obviously not happy after the race. And its mean to make Lewis unhappy.

Captain Hammer wrote:Vettel's error, but not Vettel's fault.

Can someone please explain this illogic to me? (Confession: yes I am a lawyer, but to be more precise, I am a professional negligence lawyer, and I defend professionals who have been sued for allegedly negligent acts. It is common that the professional person in question has indeed made some sort of error, and therefore is at fault. End of story. The notion that he/she might have a legitimate excuse or explanation for the error is codswallop in my universe. So if it's Vettel's error, it's Vettel's fault. Period.)

And whilst I agree that the drivers don't have a good field of vision, I disagree with suggesting that that entitled Vettel to move right.

Having said all that, despite the overwhelming vote for Vettel, I'm not decided on ROTR yet. But I'm going to have fun making the call in the next few days ...

Captain Hammer wrote:Anyway, my point is not that Vettel was clearly ahead of Webber, it's that he had no way of knowing exactly where Webber was relative to himself until they collided.

Fair enough - but if he didn't know where Webber was, why did he move over? Sure, Webber could've gone to the center for the better line, but as you say, Vettel had no idea where he was. He should not have assumed that Webber had moved over, because he did not know for sure that that was the case.

eytl wrote:

Captain Hammer wrote:Vettel's error, but not Vettel's fault.

Can someone please explain this illogic to me? (Confession: yes I am a lawyer, but to be more precise, I am a professional negligence lawyer, and I defend professionals who have been sued for allegedly negligent acts. It is common that the professional person in question has indeed made some sort of error, and therefore is at fault. End of story. The notion that he/she might have a legitimate excuse or explanation for the error is codswallop in my universe. So if it's Vettel's error, it's Vettel's fault. Period.)

And whilst I agree that the drivers don't have a good field of vision, I disagree with suggesting that that entitled Vettel to move right.

Having said all that, despite the overwhelming vote for Vettel, I'm not decided on ROTR yet. But I'm going to have fun making the call in the next few days ...

I would have thought some good healthy jingoism would make the decision for you, it was Webber he took off after all.

Maybe we could nominate the Red Bull pitwall crew for giving Sebastian a cuddle rather than beating him senseless with airguns.

RotR has to go to Sebastian Vettel, but an honourable mention to Jonathan Legard for constantly saying that McLaren had never won in Turkey when they won the first ever Turkish GP back in 2005.

eytl wrote:Having said all that, despite the overwhelming vote for Vettel, I'm not decided on ROTR yet. But I'm going to have fun making the call in the next few days ...

To be brutally honest, I am keeping an eye on the newsfeeds, confident that Red Bull will make a late dash for the win in the prestigious ROTR award.

vettel
I'l let the discussion of the move itself over to others, but it's pretty clear he has trouble with webber being faster, and is trying to compensate for this with overdriving. He could have possibly ruined his own championship, and he could have ruined webber's race.

But always look on the bright side of things: he made sure kobayashi could score a point

Vettel didn't turn into Webber, his car tracked itself into Webber. I watched it about 10 times on my DVR.

My guess is that Vettel lost his concentration after he got alongside Webber and wasn't paying attention to where his car was going. If you watch the replay you can see a bit of play in Vettel's steering wheel as if he didn't have a firm grasp on it.

The way I saw it, from the very intial reaction to the replays was that it was a racing accident and MORE on Webbers shoulder than Vettels. Let's see.

A) From Vettels incar, there was no steering movement to the right, atleast not one I picked up, so he didn't intentionally steer right.

B) Vettel was at that point ALREADY AHEAD of Webber, so Webber should have yielded instead of stubbornly stuck to his line.

C) Vettel simply ran out of road. He was ahead of Webber even before the braking and probably hit a bump or something WHILE braking which caused the rightwards jerk.

It wasn't intentional by Vettel and by virtue of Vettel beign ahead of Webber at that point (His rear tyre struck Webber in the sidepod for cryin out loud) so if someone is to blame then it's Webber for stubbornly sticking to his line. Thus my ROTR is

EVERYONE BLAMING VETTEL

Vettel, for ruining Webber's and Red Bull's day.

I'm sorry, when you are passing someone YOU have to have responsibility when passing. Vettel was either not thinking or was full of red mist, which as we know, is inexcusable in F1. And here's the thing; Vettel knows how to pass cleanly, and he knows that Webber is one of the hardest to pass in the freaking sport. So why bother? Vettel might have been ahead, but he had full responsibility in making a clean pass, which he failed.


It's times like these where I wish team orders weren't banned.

DonTirri wrote:The way I saw it, from the very intial reaction to the replays was that it was a racing accident and MORE on Webbers shoulder than Vettels. Let's see.

A) From Vettels incar, there was no steering movement to the right, atleast not one I picked up, so he didn't intentionally steer right.

B) Vettel was at that point ALREADY AHEAD of Webber, so Webber should have yielded instead of stubbornly stuck to his line.

C) Vettel simply ran out of road. He was ahead of Webber even before the braking and probably hit a bump or something WHILE braking which caused the rightwards jerk.

It wasn't intentional by Vettel and by virtue of Vettel beign ahead of Webber at that point (His rear tyre struck Webber in the sidepod for cryin out loud) so if someone is to blame then it's Webber for stubbornly sticking to his line. Thus my ROTR is

EVERYONE BLAMING VETTEL

It was a completely unnecessary risk. They're both racing for Red Bull and not against each other. Especially when nothing is certain in this championship, when every collected point counts, and especially with McLaren trailing on their backs. Vettel's problem was the fact that he was out-driven by Webber for the past couple of races, and it was his ego that ruined a perfect one-two.

Havent seen alleged incident yet, but I will award ROTR To Red Bull. No matter how you cut it, someone there has screwed up.

lostpin wrote:

DonTirri wrote:The way I saw it, from the very intial reaction to the replays was that it was a racing accident and MORE on Webbers shoulder than Vettels. Let's see.

A) From Vettels incar, there was no steering movement to the right, atleast not one I picked up, so he didn't intentionally steer right.

B) Vettel was at that point ALREADY AHEAD of Webber, so Webber should have yielded instead of stubbornly stuck to his line.

C) Vettel simply ran out of road. He was ahead of Webber even before the braking and probably hit a bump or something WHILE braking which caused the rightwards jerk.

It wasn't intentional by Vettel and by virtue of Vettel beign ahead of Webber at that point (His rear tyre struck Webber in the sidepod for cryin out loud) so if someone is to blame then it's Webber for stubbornly sticking to his line. Thus my ROTR is

EVERYONE BLAMING VETTEL

It was a completely unnecessary risk. They're both racing for Red Bull and not against each other. Especially when nothing is certain in this championship, when every collected point counts, and especially with McLaren trailing on their backs. Vettel's problem was the fact that he was out-driven by Webber for the past couple of races, and it was his ego that ruined a perfect one-two.

Not to mention the fact that had Vettel settled for second, or waited for a better opportunity, he would be in a much better position to take the fight to Webber than he is now.

Whilst everybody is talking about Red Bull, may I throw a bit of a curve ball in here?
We could suggest that another ROTR was Ferrari - Kubica looked to have had Massa bottled up quite easily, holding him in 7th place pretty easily, and Alonso only managed to drag his car up into 8th (and had Vettel and Mark not clashed, it would have been 9th place). Considering that Ferrari were ahead of Mclaren at the start of the season, or at the very least on their pace, something has gone wrong there.
Now, Canada should be interesting - they are rumoured to be bringing a new Red Bull-esque blown diffuser, but they need to get it working, and fast, because Mercedes have taken a step forwards and could pose a threat in the future.

There seems to be a lot of discussion as to what can be seen from the cockpit of current F1 cars.
To be disingenuous, if you can't see what's alongside you the chances of overtaking are pretty much reduced.
Surprised no-one thought of it before. F1 overtaking problem solved......
Vettel knew full well where Webber was as he was the one coming fom behind. Webber could be excused partly, if he did not know where Vettel was for the same reason. However Webber maintained his line as he had the right to do, so Vettel must be ROTR for turning into him.

Vettel, obviously... but I think Ferrari deserves a mention for finishing where they did. Not a good race.

Vettel for being a tool and crashing himself out and his teammate.

But also, Red Bull Racing, for quite obviously favoring Vettel over Webber and insisting Webber should have yielded!!! Seriously, WHAT THE F...?!

Let's start this.

@DonTirri:

1. Vettel's steeringwheel, is not being held in a way that makes the car go straight ahead, as you can clearly see he is pulling away from the white line, in a progressive higher pace, he is in other words, not keeping his line, and trying to switch line is not possible, or allowed if there is a car holding that line.

2.He is NOT passed before his rear wheel is passed Webber's front wheel. In terms of definition, taken from the rulebook in norway, that is taken straight from FIA, "Car "A" is on the side of car "B" when the front wheels of car "A" is at same level as the rear wheels of car "B"". And, the rule for changing lines is: "A driver can change his line once on a straight to defend his position, but the driver cannot, under any circumstances, take the line of another car, if that car is on the side on the drivers car." And by these rules, they are still side by side. You might see that this rule is handled a bit differently if you are taking a Sato on someone, and braking way too late, and getting up to the side of someone, but on a straight, that rule clearly counts the way that it is written.

3.He did not run out of road, there was a time that he was on the white line, but he moved from the white line and on to the track, without hitting Webber, if he had held his line there, they would not have touched, and, it is actually a straight, so there is no way that Vettel can run out of road by running straight. And they are not braking that early either. Webber held his line, the way he is supposed to do. You are not supposed to give away your position.


@Captain Hammer:
If you don't know were the driver, that you know tried to block you as hard as you legally can and you just passed on the side is, should you not try to locate the other car, before you are making a turn. if you assume that the other driver is pulling out, and you are doing the same, then hitting him, you can't blame the blindspot, because you knew where he was when you were starting your passing manouver. Button may have showed that the center was the best for him, but remember that Button was the fastest one of the two that were battling. Webber was the slowest, if you are the slowest into the corner, you have to brake later, to get in front of, or closer to the other driver, on the outside there is less grip, so you would like to go a bit slower than the other driver. if you arrive at the corner faster, you can braker more into the corner, and therefor taking the corner in a slower pace that the other driver, but still being on the side, because you were, either:
A. In front before the corner
B. Had a faster pace into the corner, and was able to hold the place, even though running slower in the corner.
C. Both A and B.
In Webbers case, that is harder, because you would have to brake later to even get as high up as Button did, and then, you have a much bigger chance to run of, or having to brake much more through the corner, and not being able to push the other driver in the next corner.
However, by taking a line that is as tight as possible, you force the other driver to take a slow corner if he don't want to slide out and hit you. (this depends on Webber still managing to holding his line, and not pushing Vettel even more), then you still are on the ideal-line, Webber might not be able to clear Vettel in the next corner, but should have a better exit of the last corner, and then retake the position into T1.
If he had done a Button, he would, most likely not get a better run on the exit of T-Last, and therefor, struggling to retake P1 into T1.

Just my thoughts as a racing driver, and a work in progress steward.

DonTirri wrote:The way I saw it, from the very intial reaction to the replays was that it was a racing accident and MORE on Webbers shoulder than Vettels. Let's see.

A) From Vettels incar, there was no steering movement to the right, atleast not one I picked up, so he didn't intentionally steer right.

B) Vettel was at that point ALREADY AHEAD of Webber, so Webber should have yielded instead of stubbornly stuck to his line.

C) Vettel simply ran out of road. He was ahead of Webber even before the braking and probably hit a bump or something WHILE braking which caused the rightwards jerk.

It wasn't intentional by Vettel and by virtue of Vettel beign ahead of Webber at that point (His rear tyre struck Webber in the sidepod for cryin out loud) so if someone is to blame then it's Webber for stubbornly sticking to his line. Thus my ROTR is

EVERYONE BLAMING VETTEL

A goood agruement, but in response to point A, regardless of whether or not Vettel steered into Webber, the car clearly moved in that direction. Webber held his line and was hit. For that reason I see it as 75/25 Vettel's fault.

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:

lostpin wrote:

DonTirri wrote:The way I saw it, from the very intial reaction to the replays was that it was a racing accident and MORE on Webbers shoulder than Vettels. Let's see.

A) From Vettels incar, there was no steering movement to the right, atleast not one I picked up, so he didn't intentionally steer right.

B) Vettel was at that point ALREADY AHEAD of Webber, so Webber should have yielded instead of stubbornly stuck to his line.

C) Vettel simply ran out of road. He was ahead of Webber even before the braking and probably hit a bump or something WHILE braking which caused the rightwards jerk.

It wasn't intentional by Vettel and by virtue of Vettel beign ahead of Webber at that point (His rear tyre struck Webber in the sidepod for cryin out loud) so if someone is to blame then it's Webber for stubbornly sticking to his line. Thus my ROTR is

EVERYONE BLAMING VETTEL

It was a completely unnecessary risk. They're both racing for Red Bull and not against each other. Especially when nothing is certain in this championship, when every collected point counts, and especially with McLaren trailing on their backs. Vettel's problem was the fact that he was out-driven by Webber for the past couple of races, and it was his ego that ruined a perfect one-two.

Not to mention the fact that had Vettel settled for second, or waited for a better opportunity, he would be in a much better position to take the fight to Webber than he is now.

I'm pretty sure Vettel had the position even without the move to the right.

Cynon wrote:Vettel for being a tool and crashing himself out and his teammate.

But also, Red Bull Racing, for quite obviously favoring Vettel over Webber and insisting Webber should have yielded!!! Seriously, WHAT THE F...?!

Totally agree with this. I've never been keen on Christian Horner and have never been sure why - now I know why, because you obviously can't trust him!

I'm not a massive Webber fan by any means but if I were him I'd be mightily pissed off right now.

Too easy. Vettel wins hands down, but nice try by Ferrari.

"so if someone is to blame then it's Webber for stubbornly sticking to his line."

Heard it all now. Apparently drivers not wanting to be overtaken & continuing on the line they have selected are just being stubborn........

Pure stubbornness......another reason for the lack of overtaking in F1.....

eagleash wrote:"so if someone is to blame then it's Webber for stubbornly sticking to his line."

Heard it all now. Apparently drivers not wanting to be overtaken & continuing on the line they have selected are just being stubborn........

Pure stubbornness......another reason for the lack of overtaking in F1.....

Not DD Diffusers or aero dependence, then. Makes sense.

CarlosFerreira wrote:

eagleash wrote:"so if someone is to blame then it's Webber for stubbornly sticking to his line."

Heard it all now. Apparently drivers not wanting to be overtaken & continuing on the line they have selected are just being stubborn........

Pure stubbornness......another reason for the lack of overtaking in F1.....

Not DD Diffusers or aero dependence, then. Makes sense.

Ah but he says another reason

I'ev changed my mind...
3.Williams 2.Ferrari 1.SEBASTIAN VETTEL

Dishonourable mentions to Jacques Villeneuve, Nick Heidfeld and Alexander Rossi, just because I feel like pointing the finger at people I despise.

Collieafc wrote:

CarlosFerreira wrote:

eagleash wrote:"so if someone is to blame then it's Webber for stubbornly sticking to his line."

Heard it all now. Apparently drivers not wanting to be overtaken & continuing on the line they have selected are just being stubborn........

Pure stubbornness......another reason for the lack of overtaking in F1.....

Not DD Diffusers or aero dependence, then. Makes sense.

Ah but he says another reason

I know, I was just providing the chorus to eagleash's lyrics.

CarlosFerreira wrote:

eytl wrote:Having said all that, despite the overwhelming vote for Vettel, I'm not decided on ROTR yet. But I'm going to have fun making the call in the next few days ...

To be brutally honest, I am keeping an eye on the newsfeeds, confident that Red Bull will make a late dash for the win in the prestigious ROTR award.

You're onto something, my friend.

Captain Hammer wrote:But don't think for a moment that this will make me go easier on you in the avatar challenge. Nico Hulkenberg still sucks, and you're still going to be worshipping the Morons.

I am impressed with Petrov, to be fair. If he stops binning it, he'll have a chance of unrejectifying himself. Besides - to use a Leggardism - the race today probably was a shot in the arm for him.

eytl wrote:

CarlosFerreira wrote:

eytl wrote:Having said all that, despite the overwhelming vote for Vettel, I'm not decided on ROTR yet. But I'm going to have fun making the call in the next few days ...

To be brutally honest, I am keeping an eye on the newsfeeds, confident that Red Bull will make a late dash for the win in the prestigious ROTR award.

You're onto something, my friend.

Justice where it's due, I read it here first:

Ross Prawn wrote:Maybe we could nominate the Red Bull pitwall crew for giving Sebastian a cuddle rather than beating him senseless with airguns.

I nominate myself for repeatedly picking Hulkenberg in my Predicament Predictions predictions.

tristan1117 wrote:I nominate myself for repeatedly picking Hulkenberg in my Predicament Predictions predictions.

Oooh, good segue! I was going to suggest Nico Hulkenberg as a Reject. It's one thing to be running in a dud car. It's another thing entirely to be running in a dud car and ave your team ask you to move over for your team-mate.

ROTR = Vettel

Have a look here at the before shot of vettel trying to overtake:

Why did vettel shove his car on the left hand side of webber onto the dirty side of the track in the first place?
Secondly, you can see webber had must moved to the right a bit after vettel shoved his car down the left to give vettel more room

pablo_h wrote:Why did vettel shove his car on the left hand side of webber onto the dirty side of the track in the first place?

Um, because if you watch pretty much any pass in any form of motorsport, you'll see that taking the inside line into a corner is the best way to fight for a position. Didn't you see Button's pass on Hamilton at the same corner ten laps later? Didn't you see Hamilton having a go at Webber or reclaiming the lead from Button? They always go down the inside because it's a shorter distance around the corner to take the inside line. If you take it and you hold it, you can bloc the other guy from hitting the apex, thus forcing him to take a longr way around. The only time when you can cleanly pass anywhere but down the inside is what you have a car fast enough to drive clean around the other guy. And since Vettel and Webber have the exact same car, that's not going to happen.

That wasn't really near the corner though. It was a long way back and meant a long drive down the dirty side.
Even if they didn't collide, vettel would have to brake way to early to convincingly take the corner.

Also I think that was a shot before the right hand kink, so Webber being on the left side of the track makes sense as that is the line to take through the upcoming corner.

My ROTR nomination: Red Bull Racing
Pre-Race:
Publico-Crap (I for one didn't buy the who damaged chassis thing)
Let me spell it out for you:
FP2:
Vettel: Water Pressure Issues
Webber: Engine Failure
FP3:
Webber: Throttle Issues
Qualifying:
Vettel: Broken Anti-Roll Bar
Race:
Teammates collide.
Post-Race:
More Publico-Crap

If that doesn't give them ROTR or help them get ROTY for that matter (They could easily have 70 points more than they do right now and NO! That is not an overstatement at all) I don't know.

Dishonourable mentions to: Tonio Liuzzi, Williams and Ferrari.

Just watched the replay. A few interesting things:

- Mark really was slower on that lap. Throughout the race we would see the Red Bulls take turn 8 flat on 6th, engaging 7th at the exit. The inboard replay shows Webber slots it into 7th after coming out of Turn 9.

- Enoch is right, the inboard shot does show Mark veering to the right immediately before the impact. He clearly didn't make any move to squeeze Vettel.

- I can't detect Vettel veering towards Mark purposefully either. He has to put in some corrective lock after coming out of the slipstream, and jingled a bit from side to side (which shows Mark actually gave him a bit of room, he never went into the white line or the grass, as far as I can see). There were shades of Alguersaurus and Chandhok in Spain, when Jaime cut back too early. In that situation, the Toro Rosso driver had the excuse they were in a sequence of corners, while here Vettel and Webber were on a straight.

It does look like a race accident, the young German being guilty of cock-up. It was stupid and rejectful, but I don't think he was trying to intimidate Vettel, which lets him mildly off the hook.