Grand Prix Rejects

ADx_Wales wrote:Ferrari team bosses have been summoned to see the German Grand Prix stewards following the team orders controversy at Hockenheim.

BBC are reporting the same. Jeez, if Ferrari have this taken off them I dread to think what they'll do. For the record, despite saying Id stay out of it, everyone on here is 100% right whichever view they have. They broke the rules and they did what every other team would have done.

Happiest man in the paddock? Horner.

coops wrote:For the record, despite saying Id stay out of it, everyone on here is 100% right whichever view they have. They broke the rules and they did what every other team would have done.

Happiest man in the paddock? Horner.

I nominate this the Post of the Month.

Ferrari have been fined $100,000 and referred to the World Motorsport Council, charged with team orders and bringing the sport into disrepute.

Ouch...

This just in: Ferrari fined $100000 and referred to the WMSC for team orders and bringing the sport into disrepute.

EDIT: Debaser beat me to it. So... can the WMSC strip them of the victory? Please say no...

Apparently, Ferrari have been fined.....oh.

Is the fine correct? Yes, according to the letter of the law. Have they brought the sport into disrepute? Arguably, yes. Therefore referring them to the WMSC is right. Should they be disqualified? Absolutely not, it would be a PR disaster for F1 if they were.

eytl wrote:For once I may have to go against public opinion on this forum.

But could someone please explain to me what the fuss is all about?

eytl wrote:You. Are. Kidding. Me.

Could we please now also review every not-so-subtle coded message in the sport over the last few years.

And while we're at it, please include "hold position" messages when the driver behind is actually faster.

Has the FIA turned from being "Ferrari International Assistance" to "Ferrari's Incessant Assassins"?

I feel relieved by the fact that such a knowledgeable F1 fan as you is of the same opinion that me on this whole affair.

Today I was having the feeling that I haven't been watching the same sport that most people for all these years.

Debaser wrote:The sheer blatant nature of it, I don't think the fact team orders were used is the problem. Otherwise we'd get in a huff like this every second race.

The problem for me is that most people seem to be discussing the use of team orders, not the pathetic way that Ferrari has applied them in this particular case (on that point I think everyone agrees).

Debaser wrote:Ferrari have been fined $100,000 and referred to the World Motorsport Council, charged with team orders and bringing the sport into disrepute.

In some way, they deserve a penalty for doing it so poorly. A money penalty I could agree with. A disqualification would make me stop watching Formula One altogether.

CarlosFerreira wrote:EDIT: Debaser beat me to it. So... can the WMSC strip them of the victory? Please say no...

I don't think so. In cases like these, usually FIA makes an example of the team managers but spares the pilots (Stepneygate, Crashgate etc.).

The Ballbags at the inquiry have given the spineless horses a "Fine" which I certainly dont feel like rite now!

Im not happy with this. Why? Because if it was Schumacher who benefited, you can bet your bottom dollar that the cries of foul would have been 100 times greater

Colliafc, you arent the only one, there are MILLIONS and I cannot believe there are those at the track who did not boo the guys on the podium, even though their superstar of the 2000s was involved in exactly the same things.

$64,000 fine applied by the amphibians at the FIA, Ferrari are in no way lucky, this is ABSOLUTELY DISGUSTING

ADx_Wales wrote:$64,000 fine applied by the amphibians at the FIA, Ferrari are in no way lucky, this is ABSOLUTELY DISGUSTING

I already feared the worst, because guess who happens to be the boss of FIA? Exactly.
They should've been disqualified immediately.

However, they have still been referred to the WMSC, so something could still be done.

Edited to add: I want Ferrari to give up one car, since no one but Alonso wants to drive for that team anyway, and there to be a third Red Bull for Massa. That'll teach them.

Its actually $100,000 reading from a rather unreliable source who don't deserve it, Sky Sports News, they originally put $ but it was pounds, the idiots.

CarlosFerreira wrote:

coops wrote:For the record, despite saying Id stay out of it, everyone on here is 100% right whichever view they have. They broke the rules and they did what every other team would have done.

I nominate this the Post of the Month.

And I nominate you as Moderator Of The Month!

The thing is, Rule 39.1 is pretty vague when you think about it. "Team orders which interfere with a race result are prohibited." Let's look a little earlier in the Grand Prix, around the pit-stop phase. As we know, Vettel pitted early to take advantage of the gap which was forming between Button and Kubica. Ferrari then ordered Alonso over the radio to pit early, to prevent Vettel from jumping past him, and possibly Massa too. As such, it was a team order, and it interfered with the race result in the sense that it stopped Vettel from spoiling Ferrari's 1-2. Thus, looking at it from that point of view, the order to pit Alonso early was in breach of Rule 39.1. Yet, would anybody argue that Ferrari should be punished for this? No, and with good reason - this type of thing is a common occurrence in Formula 1.

Ultimately, the point I am trying to make is that the rule could perhaps do with some additions to not make it so vague. Not that I think that it's debatable as to whether Ferrari broke this rule or not today, this is just me criticising the rule itself.

Anyway, now onto the crux of the matter - Alonso and Massa's position swapping. Ferrari did what anybody else in their position would've done. Yes, I would've loved to have seen Massa win the race, especially since it is one year to the day since his injury at Hungary, and I quite like Massa anyway. However, Ferrari are not in the business of providing heart-warming memories. Their job is to win the World Drivers Championship and the World Constructors Championship. As such, they favour Alonso, who has been consistently getting results and is widely recognised as a title-contender, over Massa, who has been finding his feet again through the first half of the season. There is the whole thing about Massa perhaps getting the edge back over Alonso, like Irvine being the lead driver for Ferrari after Schumacher's injury in 1999. Personally, I think that's a silly point to make. You can't deal on future 'ifs' and 'maybes' when it comes to form and performance, you can only go on past results. Right now, Alonso is the better driver and the better bet for the World Championship. With that in mind, with Massa leading and Alonso staying close behind, it's an easy decision to swap the positions, thus bagging Alonso what could be a critical 7 extra points by Abu Dhabi.

That aside, Ferrari's handling of the matter is absolutely abysmal and brings back the fresh memories of the wing fiasco at Red Bull only two weeks ago. The management deserves all the flak they get from the press and the fans, because they really should know better. However, did anybody question Brazil 2007, where Massa let Raikkonen through, and China 2008, where the reverse happened, at least to this extent? No. Yet those were team orders in breach of Rule 39.1, and similar situations to this one. Not like in Austria 2002 where Schumacher really didn't need those points. Raikkonen in 2007, Massa in 2008, and Alonso now, were all situations where they needed all the points they could get.

In the end, I think the FIA's ruling was probably the only punishment they could've realistically implemented without bringing into question those previous examples. Although, I would've perhaps fined them more than $100,000, I feel that's a bit light for how face-palmingly awful Ferrari has managed this.

Kovalainen reprimanded for clashing with DLR (I still am London-centric and think of him as the Docklands Light Railway) and the Force a reprimand for the tyre confusion.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85555
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85556

DLR

Trains without onboard drivers - loved travelling at the front as a kid...

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:In the end, I think the FIA's ruling was probably the only punishment they could've realistically implemented without bringing into question those previous examples. Although, I would've perhaps fined them more than $100,000, I feel that's a bit light for how face-palmingly awful Ferrari has managed this.

And a cash fine is all that Ferrari got after Austria 2002, wasn't it? Wasn't it $1,000,000 on that occasion for "bringing the sport into disrepute"? Anyway, Ferrari will likely fing this money tucked down behind the sofa and won't stop them from doing this again. And I decided long ago that if I could ever afford a Ferrari, I wouldn't be tempted by one. Isn't it the car everybody else would buy given the chance with that kind of money?

Isn't it strange that Vettel nearly shoving Alonso into the wall at the start (the reason Massa was in the lead at the first corner to start with!) has barely warranted a mention by anybody!

coops wrote:

CarlosFerreira wrote:

coops wrote:For the record, despite saying Id stay out of it, everyone on here is 100% right whichever view they have. They broke the rules and they did what every other team would have done.

I nominate this the Post of the Month.

And I nominate you as Moderator Of The Month!

It is indeed a very good point, eloquently made. Yes, it was a callous decision, but in a sport dominated by hard headed, no nonsense men, Ferrari are going to back and favour the driver who has the better chance of at least pressuring the Red Bull and Mclaren team into mistakes, or beat them outright.

Ferrim wrote:

eytl wrote:For once I may have to go against public opinion on this forum.

But could someone please explain to me what the fuss is all about?

eytl wrote:You. Are. Kidding. Me.

Could we please now also review every not-so-subtle coded message in the sport over the last few years.

And while we're at it, please include "hold position" messages when the driver behind is actually faster.

Has the FIA turned from being "Ferrari International Assistance" to "Ferrari's Incessant Assassins"?

I feel relieved by the fact that such a knowledgeable F1 fan as you is of the same opinion that me on this whole affair.

Today I was having the feeling that I haven't been watching the same sport that most people for all these years.

Debaser wrote:The sheer blatant nature of it, I don't think the fact team orders were used is the problem. Otherwise we'd get in a huff like this every second race.

The problem for me is that most people seem to be discussing the use of team orders, not the pathetic way that Ferrari has applied them in this particular case (on that point I think everyone agrees).

Debaser wrote:Ferrari have been fined $100,000 and referred to the World Motorsport Council, charged with team orders and bringing the sport into disrepute.

In some way, they deserve a penalty for doing it so poorly. A money penalty I could agree with. A disqualification would make me stop watching Formula One altogether.

It seems that you are going to have to swim quite hard against the tide of public resentment. True, I do accept the point that Alonso is probably the better bet for Ferrari for being able to challenge Mclaren and Red Bull on a regular basis (and made the point myself in the ROTR thread), but the way that this was handled was rather poorly.

Ferrari should have known that the radio message would be broadcast to the public - after all, the radio messages are now broadcast en clair - and should have been prepared for the fact that a highly popular driver, who was driving like the Massa of old, and on the first anniversary of recovering from his accident at Hungary (and with Hungary only a week away), would have had massive amounts of public sympathy on his side.
Smedley didn't sugar the pill, and you suspect by both the way he delivered the message and the tone of his voice that the order must have stuck in his throat. In fact, you half wonder whether he made the order so obvious to ensure that the public would be fully aware what was going on, as a way of showing his discontent.

Waris wrote:

ADx_Wales wrote:$64,000 fine applied by the amphibians at the FIA, Ferrari are in no way lucky, this is ABSOLUTELY DISGUSTING

I already feared the worst, because guess who happens to be the boss of FIA? Exactly.
They should've been disqualified immediately.

However, they have still been referred to the WMSC, so something could still be done.

Edited to add: I want Ferrari to give up one car, since no one but Alonso wants to drive for that team anyway, and there to be a third Red Bull for Massa. That'll teach them.

Strictly speaking, Jean Todt can't authorise a punishment by himself - only the WMSC can levy penalties for actions which bring the sport into disrepute (such as Spygate, Crashgate etc. - all of those were referred to the WMSC for deliberation). Admittedly, Todt does sit on the WMSC as a member (the head of the FIA is one of the council members), and now we will just have to wait and see what they say.

Barbazza wrote:Isn't it strange that Vettel nearly shoving Alonso into the wall at the start (the reason Massa was in the lead at the first corner to start with!) has barely warranted a mention by anybody!

I suppose that in the storm of indignation Vettel has been forgotten about. True, he was fairly aggressive off the line, and in the end needlessly so - it was because he was so far over to one side trying to squeeze Alonso that Massa simply took the ideal line into Turn 1. By the time Vettel realised what he was doing, Alonso was able to squeeze Vettel against Massa and force Vettel to back out of it.
What bothers me is why Vettel was so aggressive - yes, you can send a pass down the inside if you are very bold - but you have to have a good start, and although Alonso can start very well, you don't need to move that far off line to defend - otherwise, you let the person in 3rd catch up with you, which he did. It makes me think that Vettel thought that the only way he could win was if he kept Alonso behind him - but he tried in such a clumsy manner that he ended up costing himself more places.

Was it as horrendously dull a race as it seemed at the track? I really couldn't tell, it was awesome there, but it just seemed like there was nothing happening. At all.

Other than team orders of course.

dr-baker wrote:

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:In the end, I think the FIA's ruling was probably the only punishment they could've realistically implemented without bringing into question those previous examples. Although, I would've perhaps fined them more than $100,000, I feel that's a bit light for how face-palmingly awful Ferrari has managed this.

And a cash fine is all that Ferrari got after Austria 2002, wasn't it? Wasn't it $1,000,000 on that occasion for "bringing the sport into disrepute"? Anyway, Ferrari will likely fing this money tucked down behind the sofa and won't stop them from doing this again. And I decided long ago that if I could ever afford a Ferrari, I wouldn't be tempted by one. Isn't it the car everybody else would buy given the chance with that kind of money?

The only way you could stop anyone from doing it again would be to revise Rule 39.1 so it clearly states in what situations team orders are and are not allowed, as well as dire consequences for having been found guilty of breaking the rule. Perhaps they should also form some sort of independent panel of experts who monitor radio communication channels for anything which sounds like team orders.

shinji wrote:Was it as horrendously dull a race as it seemed at the track?

Yes.

Barbazza wrote:Isn't it strange that Vettel nearly shoving Alonso into the wall at the start (the reason Massa was in the lead at the first corner to start with!) has barely warranted a mention by anybody!

Indeed! In fact if Vettel hadn't been such an idiot, the whole "team orders" bruhaha would never have materialized. And yes I'm blaming Vettel. For the whole incident.


In seriousness, can anyone think of any possible motivation or thought process that would have sparked Vettel's maneuver? I know Alonso was right at his pace, but it's not like the other cars in the field were incapable of locomotion.

shinji wrote:Was it as horrendously dull a race as it seemed at the track?

Totally. Bring back the old layout! If it wasnt for Ferrari-Cheated-But-So-Would-Every-Other-Team-Perhaps-They-Could've-Been-A-Bit-More-Subtle-About-It-Gate it would've been incredibly forgettable.

kowalski wrote:

shinji wrote:Was it as horrendously dull a race as it seemed at the track?

Yes.

Yes

Row Man Gross-Gene wrote:

Barbazza wrote:Isn't it strange that Vettel nearly shoving Alonso into the wall at the start (the reason Massa was in the lead at the first corner to start with!) has barely warranted a mention by anybody!

Indeed! In fact if Vettel hadn't been such an idiot, the whole "team orders" bruhaha would never have materialized. And yes I'm blaming Vettel. For the whole incident.


In seriousness, can anyone think of any possible motivation or thought process that would have sparked Vettel's maneuver? I know Alonso was right at his pace, but it's not like the other cars in the field were incapable of locomotion.

I might have a go at that - the expectation from the home media that he would take an easy win, and the inevitable pressure that this would put on him, coupled to a better then expected start for Alonso (after all, most of the drivers on the right hand side lost out, but Alonso managed to get himself alongside Vettel) might have made Vettel over react. After all, we have already seen that he is fairly aggressive when it comes to fighting other drivers on the track (such as effectively pushing Sutil out of the way at Silverstone), and a healthy dose of media scrutiny, and you have a volatile recipe.

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:The thing is, Rule 39.1 is pretty vague when you think about it. "Team orders which interfere with a race result are prohibited." Let's look a little earlier in the Grand Prix, around the pit-stop phase. As we know, Vettel pitted early to take advantage of the gap which was forming between Button and Kubica. Ferrari then ordered Alonso over the radio to pit early, to prevent Vettel from jumping past him, and possibly Massa too. As such, it was a team order, and it interfered with the race result in the sense that it stopped Vettel from spoiling Ferrari's 1-2. Thus, looking at it from that point of view, the order to pit Alonso early was in breach of Rule 39.1. Yet, would anybody argue that Ferrari should be punished for this? No, and with good reason - this type of thing is a common occurrence in Formula 1.

Ultimately, the point I am trying to make is that the rule could perhaps do with some additions to not make it so vague. Not that I think that it's debatable as to whether Ferrari broke this rule or not today, this is just me criticising the rule itself.

Anyway, now onto the crux of the matter - Alonso and Massa's position swapping. Ferrari did what anybody else in their position would've done. Yes, I would've loved to have seen Massa win the race, especially since it is one year to the day since his injury at Hungary, and I quite like Massa anyway. However, Ferrari are not in the business of providing heart-warming memories. Their job is to win the World Drivers Championship and the World Constructors Championship. As such, they favour Alonso, who has been consistently getting results and is widely recognised as a title-contender, over Massa, who has been finding his feet again through the first half of the season. There is the whole thing about Massa perhaps getting the edge back over Alonso, like Irvine being the lead driver for Ferrari after Schumacher's injury in 1999. Personally, I think that's a silly point to make. You can't deal on future 'ifs' and 'maybes' when it comes to form and performance, you can only go on past results. Right now, Alonso is the better driver and the better bet for the World Championship. With that in mind, with Massa leading and Alonso staying close behind, it's an easy decision to swap the positions, thus bagging Alonso what could be a critical 7 extra points by Abu Dhabi.

That aside, Ferrari's handling of the matter is absolutely abysmal and brings back the fresh memories of the wing fiasco at Red Bull only two weeks ago. The management deserves all the flak they get from the press and the fans, because they really should know better. However, did anybody question Brazil 2007, where Massa let Raikkonen through, and China 2008, where the reverse happened, at least to this extent? No. Yet those were team orders in breach of Rule 39.1, and similar situations to this one. Not like in Austria 2002 where Schumacher really didn't need those points. Raikkonen in 2007, Massa in 2008, and Alonso now, were all situations where they needed all the points they could get.

In the end, I think the FIA's ruling was probably the only punishment they could've realistically implemented without bringing into question those previous examples. Although, I would've perhaps fined them more than $100,000, I feel that's a bit light for how face-palmingly awful Ferrari has managed this.

Bingo!

I don't have to write a race review after this post. (But I will anyway.)

mario wrote:Smedley didn't sugar the pill, and you suspect by both the way he delivered the message and the tone of his voice that the order must have stuck in his throat. In fact, you half wonder whether he made the order so obvious to ensure that the public would be fully aware what was going on, as a way of showing his discontent.

Spot on Mario, it's obvious that Smedley's radio transmissions, and Massa's deliberate very slow exit out of turn 6 conspired to make what would have been a 'routine' team order that may have been disguised rather well as many others have been through time into a blatantly obvious manipulation of the race order.

Now I'm not suggesting that Massa is the bad guy in all of this, merely that himself and Smedley were so annoyed with the decision that they effectively took it out on their own team. Interestingly the post-race BBC interview with Smedley looked remarkably like an attempt by a man with his job on the line trying to win back some of his bosses' favour which no doubt had all been blown into the weeds thanks to his in-race actions.

Whether, because of Massa's and Smedley's actions, Ferrari deserve any sort of penalty when as has been pointed out many times, this sort of stuff goes on up and down the grid (only much better disguised) is another thing entirely. My view of it is that yes, a monetary fine is acceptable, but £64,000 is pathetic, something in the region of $1 million would be much better. Anything on top of this is overkill as to penalise Ferrari for the disgruntled actions of driver and race engineer is unfair, no matter what the actions, outcomes, etc are.

Either way, the whole issue highlights just how much Bernie, with the help of large multi-national corporations and car manufacturers has turned this sport into a business. None of the drivers can say what they want, and half the time, it seems most can't even drive how they want. In effect, whilst I might be being a little bit melodramatic, the entire championship is decided by companies and sponsors, and not teams and drivers, which is sad.

AndreaModa wrote:

mario wrote:Smedley didn't sugar the pill, and you suspect by both the way he delivered the message and the tone of his voice that the order must have stuck in his throat. In fact, you half wonder whether he made the order so obvious to ensure that the public would be fully aware what was going on, as a way of showing his discontent.

Spot on Mario, it's obvious that Smedley's radio transmissions, and Massa's deliberate very slow exit out of turn 6 conspired to make what would have been a 'routine' team order that may have been disguised rather well as many others have been through time into a blatantly obvious manipulation of the race order.

Well, it isn't much different from the Mark Webber/Ciaron Pilbeam situation, is it? We were told back in Turkey that Webbo's engineer couldn't bring himself to effectively tell his driver "Sebastian is faster. Can you confirm you understand that?".

Exactly, so whilst Ferrari have taken the fine, there's no need for further punishment as the action itself was made worse by the resentment of Massa and Smedley for which they cannot be blamed for and should certainly not be punished or criticised for.

AndreaModa wrote:Exactly, so whilst Ferrari have taken the fine, there's no need for further punishment as the action itself was made worse by the resentment of Massa and Smedley for which they cannot be blamed for and should certainly not be punished or criticised for.

Sure, in my view.

coops wrote:Ferrari-Cheated-But-So-Would-Every-Other-Team-Perhaps-They-Could've-Been-A-Bit-More-Subtle-About-It-Gate

This is the new quote of the month. Twice on the same day on the same topic. Coops my son, you are on top form

AndreaModa wrote: In effect, whilst I might be being a little bit melodramatic, the entire championship is decided by companies and sponsors, and not teams and drivers, which is sad.

I do think that is a bit melodramatic - after all if you look back to last year the championship was won by a team that was mostly sponsorless and pretty much a privateer operation, which is the exact opposite of what you describe (although BGP had a good base from the corpse of honda, and probably more support than previously thought from beardie and mercedes). I don't quite think things are that bad.
But indeed, now that I think about it, Santander probably pushes for Alonso to be on top, and other things along that vein.

mario wrote:I might have a go at that - the expectation from the home media that he would take an easy win, and the inevitable pressure that this would put on him, coupled to a better then expected start for Alonso (after all, most of the drivers on the right hand side lost out, but Alonso managed to get himself alongside Vettel) might have made Vettel over react. After all, we have already seen that he is fairly aggressive when it comes to fighting other drivers on the track (such as effectively pushing Sutil out of the way at Silverstone), and a healthy dose of media scrutiny, and you have a volatile recipe.

Does anyone else think it's possible that Vettel is also under pressure from the team to start delivering on all these front row starts? We all know he's their baby and a lot of the bad races haven't been his fault - but today, a more conservative start could have put him in a much better position.

AndreaModa wrote:...as the action itself was made worse by the resentment of Massa and Smedley...

I don't quite agree with this sentiment. I would say that the action itself was made apparent by the resentment of Massa and Smedley. Their actions might have made it worse for Ferrari, but they didn't make it worse for me, as a viewer and fan of F1 because now I know why the outcome was what it was.

I find myself agreeing with Enoch in the main, but it was difficult to see Massa looking like a broken man. There is no good solution to the problem of team orders it seems. So perhaps the best idea would be to bring it out into the open again. Then when a team does something untoward, the one constituency with any real power over them will know and can impose sanctions. I'm speaking of the sponsors.

Row Man Gross-Gene wrote:

AndreaModa wrote:...as the action itself was made worse by the resentment of Massa and Smedley...

I don't quite agree with this sentiment. I would say that the action itself was made apparent by the resentment of Massa and Smedley. Their actions might have made it worse for Ferrari, but they didn't make it worse for me, as a viewer and fan of F1 because now I know why the outcome was what it was.

I find myself agreeing with Enoch in the main, but it was difficult to see Massa looking like a broken man. There is no good solution to the problem of team orders it seems. So perhaps the best idea would be to bring it out into the open again. Then when a team does something untoward, the one constituency with any real power over them will know and can impose sanctions. I'm speaking of the sponsors.

Fantastic user name!!! How I'd like to hear that name ring out in a podcast again!

My two worthless cents:

The thing is I completely understand why Ferrari done it even though I believe that Massa was the moral victor (Alonso's the better driver and is better placed in the standings etc) but the execution was extremally poor (well honestly it was beyond poor but this is a family friendly place) and the handling of it was simply abmysal.

What I find amazing though is that almost no mud is being thrown at Force India for being pathetic.

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:However, Ferrari are not in the business of providing heart-warming memories. Their job is to win the World Drivers Championship and the World Constructors Championship.

No and yes. OK, so their job is to win both titles, but primarily their job is to sell more Ferraris ultimately and what better way than "to provide heart-warming memories"? As things stand at the moment, if I were in a position to afford a Ferrari, I would NOT go out and buy one. And much as we wish to perceive F1 as a sport, it is also a marketing exercise, and Ferrari have failed on that for many years as far as I am concerned.

dr-baker wrote:

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:However, Ferrari are not in the business of providing heart-warming memories. Their job is to win the World Drivers Championship and the World Constructors Championship.

No and yes. OK, so their job is to win both titles, but primarily their job is to sell more Ferraris ultimately and what better way than "to provide heart-warming memories"? As things stand at the moment, if I were in a position to afford a Ferrari, I would NOT go out and buy one. And much as we wish to perceive F1 as a sport, it is also a marketing exercise, and Ferrari have failed on that for many years as far as I am concerned.

You wouldn't want to buy a Ferrari this year anyway if Clarkson's theory is correct

Wizzie wrote:What I find amazing though is that almost no mud is being thrown at Force India for being pathetic.

Everybody here loves The Force. Rejectful behaviour like theirs yesterday just makes us all love them more.