Your Reject of the Race - Belgium!

tristan1117 · Post by **tristan1117** » 29 Aug 2010, 21:31

Vettel, by far. How many penalties or shunts did he have in this race? He really has to stop acting so erratically if he wants to even come close to Webber and Hamilton, who were both mostly fantastic today (other than Hamilton's run-off).

LukeB · Post by **LukeB** » 29 Aug 2010, 21:37

Barrichello for making his 300th GP a complete non-event.

danardif1 wrote:Vettel is lauded as this future champion... if he can't win it in the best car, what hope has he got when a Hamilton, Alonso or Button gets their hands on one (well we know what happens when Button gets one from last year)? These are the real top names in F1 and he can't beat them in his rocket ship!!!

Oh so very true...

F1000X · Post by **F1000X** » 29 Aug 2010, 22:10

Vettel. But mainly because I'm a huge McLaren fan and his butter-finger driving ruined a shot at a 1-2. F*ck you Vettel! ROTR FOR YOU!

Jeroen Krautmeir · Post by **Jeroen Krautmeir** » 29 Aug 2010, 22:14

I hate to say it, but:

Rubens Barrichello: He really should have shown us the experience of a guy with 300GP starts. That was just as good as Vettel scre**ng up with Button. Sure it was wet, but that doesn't mean you slam into the rear of Falonso. If it were someone else, he could get away, but sorry Rubens.

ADx_Wales · Post by **ADx_Wales** » 29 Aug 2010, 22:15

Tarmac Run Off

If it weren't there, the top 5 runners would be out of the race being stuck in the gravel that should be there at the Boutsen-S.

F1000X · Post by **F1000X** » 29 Aug 2010, 22:22

ADx_Wales wrote:Tarmac Run Off

If it weren't there, the top 5 runners would be out of the race being stuck in the gravel that should be there at the Boutsen-S.

What the hell is the Boutsen-S? The final chicane?

FullMetalJack · Post by **FullMetalJack** » 29 Aug 2010, 22:26

Vettel, no explanation necessary.

ADx_Wales · Post by **ADx_Wales** » 29 Aug 2010, 22:36

Boutsen - S

or even better Van De Poele-S, its not been a bus stop for a decade.

JJMonty · Post by **JJMonty** » 29 Aug 2010, 22:58

Well my answer is fairly obvious!

Vettel.....

Caused 3 avoidable incidents..... The first one on lap 2 with Kubica...... now why so early in the race, would you decide to try and pass someone flat out on wet grass?

2nd one... with button..... got way too close.... looking at the onboard shots, tried going down the inside, even though there wasnt any space, by the time he goes left... he is braking so the car just gives him a tank slapper and into Button....

And of course.. into Liuzi.... then blamming him afterwards for it! He wasn't ahead so Tonio was entitled to hold his position....

Personally I think the stewards did the right thing giving him a Drive-through... because in the end.... he scored no points thanks to that..... and I think that will affect him alot more than a 10 place grid penelty for the next race!

As Niki Lauda said on the Red Button Forum.... "he is fast, has raw pace, great potential, but my god he is stupid! he should be learning from his mistakes like at Turkey, but he just doesn't seem to!"

Don't think Barrichello can be given ROTR because he was as bad as everyone else... no one was expecting it to be that wet and they all just skidded off! Considering he was on the Hard Slicks... and they need to run at tempretures 15-20*C higher than the soft ones... thats a big difference when you hit a wet patch!

Had Hamilton of crashed out on that onboard shot near the end of the race... then it would have been Mclaren for insisting he stay's out until it was wet enough!

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 29 Aug 2010, 23:05

Fernando Alonso - very silly and unAlonso mistake put him out. He also looked ridiculous running for the safety barrier.

Jeroen Krautmeir · Post by **Jeroen Krautmeir** » 29 Aug 2010, 23:07

Captain Hammer wrote:Fernando Alonso - very silly and unAlonso mistake put him out. He also looked ridiculous running for the safety barrier.

"RUN YOU LITTLE SPANIARD!!"

RAK · Post by **RAK** » 29 Aug 2010, 23:10

Sebastian Vettel: Is the pressure getting to him? That wasn't a professional performance at all today.

LG television graphics: Screwing up for half the race, not showing the race leader or even the whole grid at some points during the race.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 29 Aug 2010, 23:47

My ROTR nominations:

Sebastien Vettel: Upperclass twit of the year at it again. Breaks publicocrapometer before the race and then becomes his own worst enemy in the race.
Fernando Alonso: That's not how you engineer a red flag mate.
Anyone who wrote off Mercedes (Myself included): Both were outside the top 10 in qualy yet both scored points.
Rubens Barrichello: Not a happy 300th for Barry. How Alonso's car survived the impact I'll never know.

Myrvold · Post by **Myrvold** » 30 Aug 2010, 00:14

JJMonty wrote:Well my answer is fairly obvious!

Vettel.....

Caused 3 avoidable incidents..... The first one on lap 2 with Kubica...... now why so early in the race, would you decide to try and pass someone flat out on wet grass?

2nd one... with button..... got way too close.... looking at the onboard shots, tried going down the inside, even though there wasnt any space, by the time he goes left... he is braking so the car just gives him a tank slapper and into Button....

And of course.. into Liuzi.... then blamming him afterwards for it! He wasn't ahead so Tonio was entitled to hold his position....

Well, it looked like he was surprised when Kubica kept moving over, it's not like he tried to pass outside the track... that's not legal...

Well, it looked like there was some space there, but Button closed that little that was, and when Vettel was braking later, he had to make a move, it was either that, or running into the back of Button.

Agree that Liuzzi had the right to be there. However, it was plenty of space for Liuzzi, he didn't need to turn that much, he effectively drove across Vettels wheel.

However, how much I do agree about Vettel doing a bad job this race, I don't agree in much of the talk about him here.

Oh, and the left rear suspension on Sennas car broke, that was the reason for his spin.

patrick · Post by **patrick** » 30 Aug 2010, 00:19

good limerick going round the 'net at the moment
:lol:

There once was a young German named Vettle
In the race he'd boil like a kettle
The rain would descend
Button's race he'd end
And number two driver he'd settle

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 30 Aug 2010, 02:38

I don't think Alonso deserves Reject of the Race for running like a little girl. His mistake coming out of Malmedy was a rookie error - Petrov did something similar two corners later in qualifying - but just the way it looked so lazy. He got out of the car and was gone so quickly; I know he was hoping for a red flag, but it was almost as if he'd decided "Yeah, I'm gone, let's just get out and hope for a red flag" as soon as he started spinning.

Instant Mash · Post by **Instant Mash** » 30 Aug 2010, 02:49

That BMW Sauber pit stop had me in stitches. Shades of Nurburgring '99, anyone?

I reckon Vettel will one day be a world champion. Unfortunately, he still has a lot of learning to do. You can't do much with raw speed if you can't keep it pointed in the right direction.

Funnily enough, I found out last night that my new housemate happens to be a massive Vettel fan. That's gonna make the rest of the season very interesting for me. :lol:

JJMonty · Post by **JJMonty** » 30 Aug 2010, 07:07

by Wizzie » 30 Aug 2010, 10:47

My ROTR nominations:

Sebastien Vettel: Upperclass twit of the year at it again. Breaks publicocrapometer before the race and then becomes his own worst enemy in the race.

His only highlight was on the grid walk when Brundle asked him how his car was and he responded with "Blue and 4 wheels" I laughed thinking to myself that was a not bad joke for a german! But even he ruined that by trying to be smart when Brundle talked about the inters

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 30 Aug 2010, 07:24

JJMonty wrote:
by Wizzie » 30 Aug 2010, 10:47

My ROTR nominations:

Sebastien Vettel: Upperclass twit of the year at it again. Breaks publicocrapometer before the race and then becomes his own worst enemy in the race.

His only highlight was on the grid walk when Brundle asked him how his car was and he responded with "Blue and 4 wheels" I laughed thinking to myself that was a not bad joke for a german! But even he ruined that by trying to be smart when Brundle talked about the inters

We don't get the pre-race grid walk here in Australia. Instead we get an hour of our presenters worshipping Mark Webber. I was refering to the article on Autosport when he said that all Red Bull needs to win is some better luck... he must be delusional because Red Bull's problems are much deeper than that.

Post by **mario** » 30 Aug 2010, 09:43

F1000X wrote:
ADx_Wales wrote:Tarmac Run Off

If it weren't there, the top 5 runners would be out of the race being stuck in the gravel that should be there at the Boutsen-S.

What the hell is the Boutsen-S? The final chicane?

I think that he means what is called the Bus Stop by most, even though that particular corner has been changes several times in recent years.

Asides from the fact that most of the grid actually cut across that tarmac patch there, thanks to the rain, I'm not necessarily sure that that many people would have got stuck. We've seen that it was actually quite rare for anybody to get stuck in the gravel traps this weekend - the gravel is so compacted by now that the surface is fairly solid, and you can get out of the gravel if you just manage to keep a little bit of momentum and a little bit of throttle.
And, considering how Button's car would have been stricken in the middle of that run off area, it'd have been a right pain to get his car out of there if it was a gravel trap (and you would need to remove his car, because somebody could have locked up in wet conditions and slid into his car). Besides, as Alonso showed, the artificial grass can punish you much more then a gravel trap.

Captain Hammer wrote:I don't think Alonso deserves Reject of the Race for running like a little girl. His mistake coming out of Malmedy was a rookie error - Petrov did something similar two corners later in qualifying - but just the way it looked so lazy. He got out of the car and was gone so quickly; I know he was hoping for a red flag, but it was almost as if he'd decided "Yeah, I'm gone, let's just get out and hope for a red flag" as soon as he started spinning.

I don't know about you, but if I'd crashed at the exit of a fairly fast corner like Malmedy, I'd be getting out of there pretty damned quickly as well.

McJaggers · Post by **McJaggers** » 30 Aug 2010, 11:19

danardif1 wrote:This isn't just because I'm a Button fan, it's because Vettel is lauded as this future champion... if he can't win it in the best car, what hope has he got when a Hamilton, Alonso or Button gets their hands on one (well we know what happens when Button gets one from last year)? These are the real top names in F1 and he can't beat them in his rocket ship!!!

Point of note, All three of those drivers won with the best car of the season, not to mention they didn't have serious competition in the form of team mates in that year. Id say 12-14 years time is plenty for Vettel to grow, gauging his entire career based on his efforts over 2 years is foolish, for if we had done that, Button would've been discounted years ago.

Id put Vettel down for ROTR if it wasn't for the fact this was Barichello's error. Oh, and If it wasnt for the BBC with all those adulations about being the most experienced man on the grid due to it being his 300th and all.

chrismcn · Post by **chrismcn** » 30 Aug 2010, 11:38

Vettel has to be ROTR not just for the incidents he caused. On every occasion when he looked like nabbing a couple of points he came up with a new incident which tossed him down the field again. Did any one else burn out a set of wets and have to pit again?

So Vettel for playing Snakes and Ladders racing.

McJaggers · Post by **McJaggers** » 30 Aug 2010, 11:44

chrismcn wrote:Vettel has to be ROTR not just for the incidents he caused. On every occasion when he looked like nabbing a couple of points he came up with a new incident which tossed him down the field again. Did any one else burn out a set of wets and have to pit again?

So Vettel for playing Snakes and Ladders racing.

That last 'mess up' was a potential ladder moment. There was no way he was going to get a point in 16th place almost a whole lap down on p10, why not throw on some heavy wets and pray for rain.

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » 30 Aug 2010, 11:49

Of course, it has to be Sebastian Vettel. Whether it's rage, or urge for success, or he's cracking under pressure, or whatever, his race was lamentable, and has given Red Bull reasons to favour Webber over him.

AndreaModa · Post by **AndreaModa** » 30 Aug 2010, 14:06

At the risk of sounding like a broken record...it has to be Vettel. I'd given it to him with his crash on Button, by the end of the race he'd more than justified it! With a race like that he should be back at Toro Rosso really. Shocking performance.

Shizuka · Post by **Shizuka** » 30 Aug 2010, 14:44

Vettel:

- Destroying Button's and his own chances at scoring points
- Destroying Liuzzi's opportunity to reach 8th place

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 30 Aug 2010, 14:57

It has to be Vettel for me. How many incidents was he involved in? First, there was the incident when he tried to pass Kubica on the grass - a racing incident, I admit, but he did shake his fist in anger when he was in Kubica's blind spot, and it was perhaps a sign of things to come. If that could get under his skin on what, lap 2, lap 3, with 6 races left after Spa, then how is he going to cope in the run to Abu Dhabi?

Then there was that incident with Jenson Button. I think Jenson nailed it in his interview on the red button forum - Vettel should've realised that Jenson was committing to the inside earlier, instead of trying to force open a three-inch gap. When he finally realised it was too late, he swerved hard to the left and lost it on a bone dry track (according to Button). It was a case of the red mist descending, and that is no excuse for a supposed future World Champion like Vettel.

After that, he basically repeated his move on Sutil at Silverstone on Liuzzi, taking off the Force India's front wing. I'm not sure if Vettel would've been able to see Liuzzi in his mirrors, but he should've known from previous difficulty in passing Liuzzi that the Force India was a quick car, and maybe deserved a bit more room. He deserves credit for bringing the car back around with a flat rear tyre, but had he been more cautious, he would not have had to have done that.

Vettel has the talent and raw pace to be a World Champion, of that there is little doubt. But there have to be questions over his mental strength after this race. He has been consistently making mistakes, losing points, and costing himself a World Championship. If he can't regain his composure soon, in the next couple of races, then he may give Red Bull no choice but to back Webber.

YujiIde · Post by **YujiIde** » 30 Aug 2010, 15:44

Vettel as he got involved in three seperate incidents.

He has the speed but if ever wants be a World Champion he needs to learn how to overtake without crashing.

coops · Post by **coops** » 30 Aug 2010, 18:34

YujiIde wrote:Vettel as he got involved in three seperate incidents.
He has the speed but if ever wants be a World Champion he needs to learn how to overtake without crashing.

And how not to cock it up behind the safety car. And how to get away from the line quickly. And...

TomPryce · Post by **TomPryce** » 30 Aug 2010, 21:07

At the risk of sounding biased, I've never really liked Vettel. For sure, his win in Monza in the Torro Rosso was exceptional and I whooped and cheered with everyone else, but now I can't stand that arse-faced twit.

His manner and demeanor are of arrogance and finger pointing. This season has ripped off his "sweet and innocent" charade of inexperience. Remember, he began his career in 2006, and in 4 years he still hasn't matured in the same rate of knots as Kubica and Hamilton.

His many errors in Spa are testament to his hot headed character. Instead of trying to excuse it for being just a character trait, we should worry whether he will ever really have the right attitude to challenge for world titles.

Post by **DemocalypseNow** » 30 Aug 2010, 21:46

TomPryce wrote:At the risk of sounding biased, I've never really liked Vettel. For sure, his win in Monza in the Torro Rosso was exceptional and I whooped and cheered with everyone else, but now I can't stand that arse-faced twit.

His manner and demeanor are of arrogance and finger pointing. This season has ripped off his "sweet and innocent" charade of inexperience. Remember, he began his career in 2006, and in 4 years he still hasn't matured in the same rate of knots as Kubica and Hamilton.

His many errors in Spa are testament to his hot headed character. Instead of trying to excuse it for being just a character trait, we should worry whether he will ever really have the right attitude to challenge for world titles.

I award you 10 HWNSNBM points for this speech.

Myrvold · Post by **Myrvold** » 30 Aug 2010, 21:53

Like usual my ROTR is... the stewards+Charlie Whiting... I mean, good job in catching up and maybe over-penalizing some out there... but what about Massa?? I mean, that wasn't even something to think about, that was a clear misjudgement, but they just let that go...

Post by **mario** » 30 Aug 2010, 22:31

TomPryce wrote:At the risk of sounding biased, I've never really liked Vettel. For sure, his win in Monza in the Torro Rosso was exceptional and I whooped and cheered with everyone else, but now I can't stand that arse-faced twit.

His manner and demeanor are of arrogance and finger pointing. This season has ripped off his "sweet and innocent" charade of inexperience. Remember, he began his career in 2006, and in 4 years he still hasn't matured in the same rate of knots as Kubica and Hamilton.

His many errors in Spa are testament to his hot headed character. Instead of trying to excuse it for being just a character trait, we should worry whether he will ever really have the right attitude to challenge for world titles.

Hmm, it is interesting to compare the development of Vettel against others with similar levels of experience.

Vettel has currently completed 56 races - by comparison, Hamilton, Kovalainen and Sutil are all on 65 (although Kovalainen has only started 64 races, because of his gearbox failue just before the race at the Spanish Grand Prix this year), Kubica is on 70, and Timo Glock on 50, with 48 starts. Most of those drivers have shown that they are maturing in terms of strategy calls, situational awareness and spatial awareness, some of which they have garnered in lower formulae, and much from learning the hard way in F1.
That said, if you have the knack, it comes to the fore - Kimi Raikkonen was very inexperienced when he entered the sport (Peter Sauber had to beg the FIA and FOTA for s special dispensation to get a super licence). He started in 2001 - yet, in 2003, he was already capable of launching a title bid, and gave Schumacher a lot of grief, despite having an inferior car, by driving so strategically. I get the impression, though, that many would expect Vettel to struggle were he to be put into Kimi's position all those years ago.

Looking at those drivers, the most apt comparison would be with Sutil - both of them made their mark in Formula 3 (and that was their main racing experience before entering F1), and both of them intially gained a reputation of being talented but accident prone (after all, Sutil has had several accidents along the way, and Vettel had 5 consecutive DNF's to his name in his first season). Indeed, both Sutil and Vettel had some very clumsy accidents as recently as last year (Vettel's crash with Kubica in Australia, and Sutil taking out Heidfeld in Singapore). However, this year, Sutil has managed to, by and large, keep out of trouble, and that image of a fast but crash prone driver has started to be replaced with that of a more consistent driver, as he is steadily racking up points throughout the season.

The problem is, Vettel has been involved in several high profile crashes, as he has hit his team mate in Turkey whilst trying to take the lead, and then there was his crash with Button when trying to pass him, in what does look like a bit of a silly mistake (OK, he says that he struck a bump in the road and lost control whilst trying to avoid Button, who was braking early - but, surely, he had been following him for enough laps to know where he was braking, and given that we saw the shots of Button's damaged wing, and the radio messages from Mclaren, the team should have warned him that Button had handling problems, and may be slow going into the corners).

In this case, the complaints are from without, instead of within - Button, understandably, is pretty frustrated with what happened, and Whitmarsh has basically said that Vettel's driving was more remeniscent of junior categories instead of premier motorsport standards. Horner, naturally, has rushed to Vettel's defence, although so far his comments have fallen on deaf ears at Mclaren.

And that is a problem - whether or not Vettel has been entirely to fault in all of his crashes, the fact that he has been involved in so many accidents when either trying to pass or defend for position that people are questioning whether he does have the necessary race craft to do the job. Moreover, there are his start line moves, when he has very aggressively cut across other drivers - he has been asked about it by the BBC commentary team, and indicated that he thought that he was doing nothing wrong.

Unfortunately, that sort of behaviour doesn't do his reputation any good, and he is beginning to acquire a reputation as a fast but brittle driver, only able to win when nobody else is close enough to pressure him. There has certainly been enough incidents to provide his critics with a lot of ammunition - and with all these mistakes, he is making a rod for his own back. The thing is, there are times when he has been able to pass decisively - Brazil 2009, for example - yet it is the crashes that are, sadly, more memorable, and unless he can cut them out, he is just throwing away too many points to be able to mount a title challenge.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 31 Aug 2010, 06:37

Myrvold wrote:Like usual my ROTR is... the stewards+Charlie Whiting... I mean, good job in catching up and maybe over-penalizing some out there... but what about Massa?? I mean, that wasn't even something to think about, that was a clear misjudgement, but they just let that go...

What did he do? We Australians never saw it. It was probably during the ads.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 31 Aug 2010, 06:47

Captain Hammer wrote:
Myrvold wrote:Like usual my ROTR is... the stewards+Charlie Whiting... I mean, good job in catching up and maybe over-penalizing some out there... but what about Massa?? I mean, that wasn't even something to think about, that was a clear misjudgement, but they just let that go...

What did he do? We Australians never saw it. It was probably during the ads.

If my memory serves me right Massa overshot his starting box by almost half a car length.

thehemogoblin · Post by **thehemogoblin** » 31 Aug 2010, 06:47

Captain Hammer wrote:
Myrvold wrote:Like usual my ROTR is... the stewards+Charlie Whiting... I mean, good job in catching up and maybe over-penalizing some out there... but what about Massa?? I mean, that wasn't even something to think about, that was a clear misjudgement, but they just let that go...

What did he do? We Australians never saw it. It was probably during the ads.

Someone mentioned elsewhere that Massa was about 1/3 of a car-length past the white line on the grid.

Collieafc · Post by **Collieafc** » 31 Aug 2010, 10:09

My ROTR goes to Vettel, for the reasons everyone else has covered. At least in the Chellos case everyone was going off and somebody was going to hit someone when that happens. It just happened it was him in that case (how there was only one crash in all that is beyond me)

Myrvold · Post by **Myrvold** » 31 Aug 2010, 11:20

thehemogoblin wrote:
Captain Hammer wrote:
Myrvold wrote:Like usual my ROTR is... the stewards+Charlie Whiting... I mean, good job in catching up and maybe over-penalizing some out there... but what about Massa?? I mean, that wasn't even something to think about, that was a clear misjudgement, but they just let that go...

What did he do? We Australians never saw it. It was probably during the ads.

Someone mentioned elsewhere that Massa was about 1/3 of a car-length past the white line on the grid.

Correct, and while Barrichello and Vettels accidents can be defended in some ways, I don't see that this mistake can be defended, there is no doubt about what happended, as mario(?) have shown with the video.

jackanderton · Post by **jackanderton** » 31 Aug 2010, 12:16

1. Vettel - woeful error.

2. Alonso - error-prone all weekend. fastest on friday then after that just drove like a spaz.

eytl · Post by **eytl** » 31 Aug 2010, 12:42

mario wrote:Hmm, it is interesting to compare the development of Vettel against others with similar levels of experience.

That is an epic analysis (which I won't quote in full). The comparison with Sutil is a good one.

One thought just occurred to me - wasn't a bump in the road also at fault for the swerve right into Webber at Istanbul?

One of the main problems (and again I'm saying it here in case I forget to in the written race review) is that Red Bull aren't doing anything to nurture and improve Vettel as a driver. Horner's post-race comments on Vettel were utter rubbish. He was implying that Seb had bad luck and it's just a matter of things going his way. What you hope he'd be doing in private is giving Vettel the world's biggest bollocking and telling him not to make such sudden lateral movements such that he loses control ... but somehow I don't think that happened.

I don't think ROTR will be much of a surprise ... :lol: