Grand Prix Rejects

spirit of super aguri lives if the link up goes through

Faustus, may I say that your post on the limitations of CFD is very well written - it was a point that I've tried to say before, albeit not as eloquently as you have.

On a further note:

Faustus wrote:The rumoured McLaren link-up is interesting. It didn't work out too well at Force India, mostly due to personnel issues, but maybe it can be made to work with Virgin.
It would be awesome to see Formtech involved with Virgin next year, but we'll have to see if that is on the cards.

Just to ask, but where did you hear the rumour of a partnership with McLaren? I've seen a few hints of such a deal on Twitter (scarbsf1 seems to have mentioned that MVR are after a deal to basically build their next car around the rear half of a McLaren - Mercedes engine, McLaren gearbox and Mercedes KERS - in return for Paffett driving).
How would that sit alongside McLaren's existing deal with Force India? I agree that the McLaren-Force India link hasn't always worked, but that is probably not helped by the endemic brain drain at Force India due to poor pay (they've just lost another designer, Nick Jefferies, who has now gone to Ferrari as a consultant in their aero department). Still, relative to where they were when dealing with Ferrari, it seems that Force India have improved to at least be able to get into the mid field, instead of mostly propping it up - so it's hard to see how MVR wouldn't benefit, unless they rack up debts they can't afford.

Did the McLaren-Force India link start with the Mercedes engine deal in 2009? If so, it seems to have worked pretty well. Spyker were rock bottom in 2007 and only beat the bankrupt Super Aguri in 2008, but during 2009 they made steady progress, culminating in their podium at Spa, they continued that in 2010 and established themselves firmly in the midfield. Things have fallen apart a bit lately, but the Force are still running in the midfield and are closer to the front than they ever were in the Midland/Spyker days.

Back to Virgin, it seems in the short term they now don't have CFD as well as a Windtunnel :S. It would be easy to pin all their troubles on CFD, but as I said earlier in this thread, CFD is just another source of data, just like the windtunnel, it still takes the engineers to interpret the data and the designers to come up with solutions, how much of Virgin's problem lay with lower quality data and how much with less talented engineers?

mario wrote:Just to ask, but where did you hear the rumour of a partnership with McLaren? I've seen a few hints of such a deal on Twitter (scarbsf1 seems to have mentioned that MVR are after a deal to basically build their next car around the rear half of a McLaren - Mercedes engine, McLaren gearbox and Mercedes KERS - in return for Paffett driving).
How would that sit alongside McLaren's existing deal with Force India? I agree that the McLaren-Force India link hasn't always worked, but that is probably not helped by the endemic brain drain at Force India due to poor pay (they've just lost another designer, Nick Jefferies, who has now gone to Ferrari as a consultant in their aero department). Still, relative to where they were when dealing with Ferrari, it seems that Force India have improved to at least be able to get into the mid field, instead of mostly propping it up - so it's hard to see how MVR wouldn't benefit, unless they rack up debts they can't afford.

I heard it at the weekend. I was in Monaco with RSC Mucke Motorsport.
The problem with these rumours is that it's hard to pin down where they start and they take on a life of their own, which almost each person adding something to it. It's difficult to say if there is anything to it.
The McLaren-Force India deal is for components only. What I heard from a couple of people at Force India is that Jonathan Neale and his aides tried to completely restructure the team. Apparently the existing management team, especially Vijay Mallya and Ian Philips, didn't take kindly to this and thought it was way beyond the conditions of the contract. Jonathan Neale is back at McLaren, doing something or other at the factory and running the 'war room' or whatever it is they call the place where McLaren monitors the race weekend.
The deal between McLaren and Force India is for gearbox, KERS and transmission (exactly as you say) although the gearbox casing is Force India's.

Faustus wrote:I heard it at the weekend. I was in Monaco running a GP3 car for RSM Mucke Motorsport (Luciano Bacheta's). It was a one-off.

The team is called RSC Mücke Motorsport. And yes, I have a good reason to be this pedantic.

Klon wrote:

Faustus wrote:I heard it at the weekend. I was in Monaco running a GP3 car for RSM Mucke Motorsport (Luciano Bacheta's). It was a one-off.

The team is called RSC Mücke Motorsport. And yes, I have a good reason to be this pedantic.

Ralf Schumacher team?

Then it should be a team that graduates mildly talented, mildly rejectful younger brothers!

Klon wrote:

Faustus wrote:I heard it at the weekend. I was in Monaco running a GP3 car for RSM Mucke Motorsport (Luciano Bacheta's). It was a one-off.

The team is called RSC Mücke Motorsport. And yes, I have a good reason to be this pedantic.

I stand corrected. You're absolutely right, I have no idea why I typed that.
Ralf Schumacher lends his name to Peter Mucke's team, but fortunately leaves the running of the team to the professionals.

Faustus wrote:

mario wrote:Just to ask, but where did you hear the rumour of a partnership with McLaren? I've seen a few hints of such a deal on Twitter (scarbsf1 seems to have mentioned that MVR are after a deal to basically build their next car around the rear half of a McLaren - Mercedes engine, McLaren gearbox and Mercedes KERS - in return for Paffett driving).
How would that sit alongside McLaren's existing deal with Force India? I agree that the McLaren-Force India link hasn't always worked, but that is probably not helped by the endemic brain drain at Force India due to poor pay (they've just lost another designer, Nick Jefferies, who has now gone to Ferrari as a consultant in their aero department). Still, relative to where they were when dealing with Ferrari, it seems that Force India have improved to at least be able to get into the mid field, instead of mostly propping it up - so it's hard to see how MVR wouldn't benefit, unless they rack up debts they can't afford.

I heard it at the weekend. I was in Monaco running a GP3 car for RSM Mucke Motorsport (Luciano Bacheta's). It was a one-off.
The problem with these rumours is that it's hard to pin down where they start and they take on a life of their own, which almost each person adding something to it. It's difficult to say if there is anything to it.
The McLaren-Force India deal is for components only. What I heard from a couple of people at Force India is that Jonathan Neale and his aides tried to completely restructure the team. Apparently the existing management team, especially Vijay Mallya and Ian Philips, didn't take kindly to this and thought it was way beyond the conditions of the contract. Jonathan Neale is back at McLaren, doing something or other at the factory and running the 'war room' or whatever it is they call the place where McLaren monitors the race weekend.
The deal between McLaren and Force India is for gearbox, KERS and transmission (exactly as you say) although the gearbox casing is Force India's.

Interesting work - was there anybody in the GP3 field that you think might be worth keeping an eye on for the future?

Anyway, as you say, the problem is that these sorts of rumours can easily gain a life of their own and spread at an alarming speed - after all, the news that Wirth would no longer be working with the team only came out pretty recently, and already we've got rumours about where MVR will relocate, who they might do a deal with and so forth.
It's kind of why I asked about the source, since they are often so nebulous - for example, who was it that put about the rumours of start only KERS on the RB7? We don't know who it was, but the rumours had engulfed the paddock within 24 hours (and turned out to be wrong the following day).

Maybe the problem was that CFD required more developing, and Virgin doesn't have the resources to do just that. It's always difficult to try to introduce innovations on small-resourced teams since they don't have the means to perfect those. Even so, probably using a windtunnel is still the way to go, to complement the CFD data.

mario wrote:Just to ask, but where did you hear the rumour of a partnership with McLaren?

Mario - it's mentioned on the Autosport report here http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/91924

Jeroen Krautmeir wrote:I wonder what AndreaModa has to say about all of this.

No, in all seriousness I think perhaps the writing was somewhat on the wall when it was announced Wirth was to get a 'change of responsibilities' a little while ago. It is a shame because it was a great idea to base a team around, but it was an idea that needed a lot of money and a lot of support, and neither of which Virgin has received. This, as mentioned in the Autosport report, is clearly the movements of Marussia as they exert themselves on the team. Whether they hang around long enough for it to have any real effect remains to be seen, but they obviously want to stay till the Russian GP in 2014, though aiming for a podium by then seems a little unrealistic to me.

I do feel sorry for Wirth, and not just because it's all based in Banbury, but as Mario said, because I feel he's been made a scapegoat of what has in reality been a much wider reaching failure on the team's part as a whole. Of course the technical side has not performed well enough, but neither has the monetary support been anything like enough.

It would be good to see them move in at Leafield, which again isn't far from me. I can't really think of any other realistic places to go, and I doubt they'd go out and build an entirely new facility.

A McLaren tie-up would be good, and seeing Gary Paffet rewarded with a drive would also be nice, but how far do you go before we start getting on the levels of customer cars? If the whole rear end will essentially be a McLaren, there isn't an awful lot left that would distinguish it as a different car, with the exception of the aerodynamics, which would be broadly similar around the rear end anyway due to the packaging. It's not a direction I'd particularly like to see F1 go down but there we go.

I just hope Branson stays on board, and the team doesn't become too dominated by Marussia because whilst the financial investment might be good, they know jack about racing. The one little thing that only pisses me off about the team is that they now race under the Russian flag. There's sod all Russian in the team apart from some money (and that clearly can't be much!) and a few boardroom staff. It's an affront and disrespectful to the large number of British people employed both up in Sheffield and down here in the Midlands (as an aside I know an old mate from school who's now employed with the team and works up in Sheffield as well as going to all the race weekends! Jealous much I know??!!).

McDuck = vindicated.

A starving man can't eat a computer simulation of a cheeseburger.

CFD has work for Nick Wirths team in the Le mans series around Europe and the USA so its a really good, however F1 looks like it will be relying on windtunnel for some time because even though Windtunnels can read incorrect readings of aerodynamics, its still the engineers best toy and far way still better (ATM) then CFD, but every year the CFD models seem to be getting closer to becoming just as good or even better then the Windtunnels. My opinion I prefer teams using both as one reading could be completey wrong & so the team can check on the other reading. Virgin took a gamible and hasnt worked but full credit to them for trying

McDuck wrote:McDuck = vindicated.

A starving man can't eat a computer simulation of a cheeseburger.

Wait, are you telling us that, after a year and a half, the Virgin car was virtual?

DanielPT wrote:

McDuck wrote:McDuck = vindicated.

A starving man can't eat a computer simulation of a cheeseburger.

Wait, are you telling us that, after a year and a half, the Virgin car was virtual?

http://www.f1rejects.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=445

McDuck wrote:McDuck = vindicated.

A starving man can't eat a computer simulation of a cheeseburger.

[Cue HRT] Similarly, a starving man can't eat a rotten Big Mac.

they should buy the tf110 with associated tech support modify that to suir regs would be better than what they have now and poss be in mid field somewere

S951 wrote:they should buy the tf110 with associated tech support modify that to suir regs would be better than what they have now and poss be in mid field somewere

It's been said time and time again that the TF110 was built around a double-diffuser, which is illegal now. Removing it will cause all sorts of chaos to the balance of the car, along with its aero efficiency. Not a smart move.

Jeroen Krautmeir wrote:

S951 wrote:they should buy the tf110 with associated tech support modify that to suir regs would be better than what they have now and poss be in mid field somewere

It's been said time and time again that the TF110 was built around a double-diffuser, which is illegal now. Removing it will cause all sorts of chaos to the balance of the car, along with its aero efficiency. Not a smart move.

And the car would be a year old. Not only would the Double Diffuser be illegal, but also the Shark fin cover aswell, too much to change so its just as easy to build a new car.

Partly off-topic, but check this out:

http://www.racecar-engineering.com/arti ... urel-hill/

Insanely cool and a very interesting addition to aerodynamic testing of racing cars.

So, I guess Nick wasn't Wirth it. Now he's lost his Virginity.









Took me a week to think of that

Peter wrote:So, I guess Nick wasn't Wirth it. Now he's lost his Virginity.

Took me a week to think of that

it's good to simtek your time, you should not be marussian things too fast

This wrote:

Peter wrote:So, I guess Nick wasn't Wirth it. Now he's lost his Virginity.

Took me a week to think of that

it's good to simtek your time, you should not be marussian things too fast

Jos stop, guys, we can't Gounon.

Schiattarella.

Unpunnable.

shinji wrote:Schiattarella.

Unpunnable.

Schiattareally?

shinji wrote:Schiattarella.

Unpunnable.

If I can do it, will you buy me ice cream? I love Schiattarella ice cream.

Klon wrote:

shinji wrote:Schiattarella.

Unpunnable.

If I can do it, will you buy me ice cream? I love Schiattarella ice cream.

so kimi is going to drive for virgin next year? you've read it here first!

If Virgin started talking about how they were trying to sign Kimi I wouldn't be surprised but would still shake my head, I'd argue they are more of a joke when HRT. Even if HRT are hardly the most professional outfit to grace the F1 grid, at least they have determination and drive to get on the grid and have kept going despite troubles with money and development. Virgin this year have just come across like a lazy effort which seriously just can't be bothered anymore, i'm glad HRT have caught up to them, warms the heart.

4 pages of Virgin vs. 26 pages of HRT.. I must admit: our russian team is overdiscussed by Hispania and that is rejectfully rejectful But since i'm a HRT-fan, I'm pretty glad with that.

solarcold wrote:4 pages of Virgin vs. 26 pages of HRT.. I must admit: our russian team is overdiscussed by Hispania and that is rejectfully rejectful But since i'm a HRT-fan, I'm pretty glad with that.

Because Vrigin is incredibly boring. At least HRT is improving and they have some excitement going on.


Plus this thread is less than half the age of the HRT thread.

Peter wrote:

solarcold wrote:4 pages of Virgin vs. 26 pages of HRT.. I must admit: our russian team is overdiscussed by Hispania and that is rejectfully rejectful But since i'm a HRT-fan, I'm pretty glad with that.

Because Vrigin is incredibly boring. At least HRT is improving and they have some excitement going on.


Plus this thread is less than half the age of the HRT thread.

I beg to differ.

solarcold wrote:4 pages of Virgin vs. 26 pages of HRT.. I must admit: our russian team is overdiscussed by Hispania and that is rejectfully rejectful But since i'm a HRT-fan, I'm pretty glad with that.

And we even discuss Virgin stuff over at the HRT thread. Lets face it. Virgin is clearly the Meg Griffin of backmarkers.

DanielPT wrote:

solarcold wrote:4 pages of Virgin vs. 26 pages of HRT.. I must admit: our russian team is overdiscussed by Hispania and that is rejectfully rejectful But since i'm a HRT-fan, I'm pretty glad with that.

And we even discuss Virgin stuff over at the HRT thread. Lets face it. Virgin is clearly the Meg Griffin of backmarkers.

It's probably more accurate to say Meg Griffin is the backmarker of virgins...

Peter wrote:So, I guess Nick wasn't Wirth it. Now he's lost his Virginity.









Took me a week to think of that

L'Oreal sponsoring Virgin next year then?

Well, since this is the Virgin thread, I thought it was mroe suitable to dig this one up rather than make a new thread and say:

Kick d'Ambrosio out of the car and put Yamamoto in.

Why you might ask? Because Jerome is doing no better than di Grassi, performing erratically and inconsistently, and isn't even close to Glock on pace, something like a second or more off of him. Sakon, while not magical on pace, is a consnstent driver, who won't make much mistakes if at all, and will be able to keep the car out of the gravel or walls, and not spin in the pitlane, plus, considering he was rarely anything over a second off of Senna at HRT last year, he should be able to run closer to Glock. It's a win win for Virgin. And if not Sakon, maybe a current GP2 star? Grosjean or Senna perhaps, if Renault decides to do what Red Bull does with Daniel?

Peter wrote:Well, since this is the Virgin thread, I thought it was mroe suitable to dig this one up rather than make a new thread and say:

Kick d'Ambrosio out of the car and put Yamamoto in.

Why you might ask? Because Jerome is doing no better than di Grassi, performing erratically and inconsistently, and isn't even close to Glock on pace, something like a second or more off of him. Sakon, while not magical on pace, is a consnstent driver, who won't make much mistakes if at all, and will be able to keep the car out of the gravel or walls, and not spin in the pitlane, plus, considering he was rarely anything over a second off of Senna at HRT last year, he should be able to run closer to Glock. It's a win win for Virgin. And if not Sakon, maybe a current GP2 star? Grosjean or Senna perhaps, if Renault decides to do what Red Bull does with Daniel?

This may bias speaking here, but I don't see exactly why he should definitely be replaced by Sakon. Sure he's a fair bit slower than Timo, but apart from his practice shunt at Montreal and his spin in the pitlane, how has he been driving erratically?

Interesting thought that but would fancy seeing senna in there

Senna to Virgin would be a poor move on his part. Have they got any decent testers within the team? Or look at GP2, there's probably a few good drivers in there. Having said all that, I can see D'Ambrosio seeing out the year and disappearing just as quickly as Di Grassi did.

Peter wrote:Well, since this is the Virgin thread, I thought it was mroe suitable to dig this one up rather than make a new thread and say:

Kick d'Ambrosio out of the car and put Yamamoto in.

Why you might ask? Because Jerome is doing no better than di Grassi, performing erratically and inconsistently, and isn't even close to Glock on pace, something like a second or more off of him. Sakon, while not magical on pace, is a consnstent driver, who won't make much mistakes if at all, and will be able to keep the car out of the gravel or walls, and not spin in the pitlane, plus, considering he was rarely anything over a second off of Senna at HRT last year, he should be able to run closer to Glock. It's a win win for Virgin. And if not Sakon, maybe a current GP2 star? Grosjean or Senna perhaps, if Renault decides to do what Red Bull does with Daniel?

Sakon drafted in mid-season for the 4th time, although this time it won't be for the worst car on the grid. To be fair to him, he was better at HRT than before, even beating Senna on occassion.

Yamamoto only ever beat Senna if Bruno ran into trouble in the races, but nevertheless, was reasonably close to Bruno.

While Yamamoto is no big step up from Jerome, I think Virgin needs a pay driver who is experienced and consistent to move forward, and I think that, while questionable over short term, over the long term they'd be better off with Sakon behind the wheel.