Grand Prix Rejects

Collieafc wrote:

DonTirri wrote:2nd: Mercedes GP.
This might be debatable but god, they got all the money in the world, arguably best driver in the history, the best engine on the grid, one of the most brilliant strategical minds in the business as a team principal... Yet they haven't been able to even get regular podiums. Pathetic.

Thats an interesting one. At first I thought "Wait, they improved over last year, how can they be reject?" But then there was the pre-season hype and how they were setting the best times. When compared to that then your arguement is very, very valid!

Mercedes weakness is their design team. They are currently like Toyota, but far less conservative, and with a lot more key staff in the team ,except for their design department. They are working on that every day, getting more talent into the team, from other teams, but their lack of results are down to a lack of a designer as talented as those in the top 3. Not only that, their experience and resources probably fall short of those in the top 3 as well. Plus, don't forget that they have had the pace to compete with the likes of Ferrari, or even McLaren a few times, until their relatively poor tyre wear kicks in and they struggle.

Haven't done this yet, so here goes nothing:
3rd place: Renault: If I remember from the beginning of the year, this year was supposed to be Renault fighting for the championship. The car was decent, they have good drivers in Kubica and Petrov, and they wanted to capitalize on their success in 2010. Now, with Kubica absent, Petrov, while he has become more mature, I don't think has the reliability of finishing on the podium or thereabouts (4th-6th). Senna is a mixed bag, and I really I don't know if he is the "real deal" or what, partly because the car is decent but only so; Force India's VJM-04 has improved drastically over the year while the R31 just sat there in speed. And while I do like Kubica I do not see him returning to the sport competitively yet; I wouldn't be surprised to see him as a test driver next year.

2nd place: Hamilton: If I were him I would take a year off competitive racing and become a test driver. Clearly he cannot drive with others and his constant crashes with Massa are becoming, well, normal. I don't know if it's personal life getting in the way of his driving, Jenson Button having the upper hand, or what (might be a combination of everything), but I think he needs some time out to clear his head.

1st place: Williams: This one I think is a no-brainer. Constantly fighting with the Lotuses (the green ones), having no speed, and barely getting into the points. Wasn't this team supposed to be going after the championship as well? To be honest I am surprised they do have some points. Maldonado does have some speed but he's there really for his money, and Barrichello, well, he isn't the Barrichello we have seen at Brawn or even at Ferrari. It pains me to say it, but if they continue down this spiral, 2013, or even next year, will be their last year before they either fold or get bought up.

Dishonorable mentions:
Sauber: Making their drivers look silly a la Lamborghini. I'm often surprised to see either one of them in the points.
Liuzzi: Well he DID give HRT their chance to be with the Renaults and Mercedes...albeit in the side of the Renaults and Mercedes.
Virgin: You'd think this team would progress greatly like how Simtek did in 1995 before closing down.
Webber: Has he ever made a good start this year?

Renault and Williams were certainly not supposed to be fighting for the championship this year, though I still agree they have vastly underperformed. But, really? Hamilton taking a sabbatical to be a test driver seems just as probable as HRT becoming a midfield proposition next year.

Phoenix wrote:Renault and Williams were certainly not supposed to be fighting for the championship this year, though I still agree they have vastly underperformed. But, really? Hamilton taking a sabbatical to be a test driver seems just as probable as HRT becoming a midfield proposition next year.

I did recall Renault saying at the beginning of the year that they were going to fight for the championship. As for Williams, I also recall that they were going to fight for at least the podium, though that was back when Bahrain was still on the calender.

As for Hamilton, no, I don't expect him to take a sabbatical. However, he needs an attitude adjustment or he's going to become another Andrea de Chesaris or the Kyle Busch of F1.

Dan B wrote:

Phoenix wrote:Renault and Williams were certainly not supposed to be fighting for the championship this year, though I still agree they have vastly underperformed. But, really? Hamilton taking a sabbatical to be a test driver seems just as probable as HRT becoming a midfield proposition next year.

I did recall Renault saying at the beginning of the year that they were going to fight for the championship. As for Williams, I also recall that they were going to fight for at least the podium, though that was back when Bahrain was still on the calender.

As for Hamilton, no, I don't expect him to take a sabbatical. However, he needs an attitude adjustment or he's going to become another Andrea de Chesaris or the Kyle Busch of F1.

We love Andrea de Cesaris.

Kyle Busch is an arsehole though.

Dan B wrote:
As for Hamilton, no, I don't expect him to take a sabbatical. However, he needs an attitude adjustment or he's going to become another Andrea de Chesaris or the Kyle Busch of F1.

The thing with Hamilton is that he is just a continuation of a long line of ENGLISH champions who get it right once and then just piss it all away by themselves afterwards. I mean, the only English two time world champ is Graham Hill.

Look at the list after Graham:
James Hunt: Won a surprise championship mainly thanks to Lauda's near-death experience. Wasn't even close afterwards as his playboy lifestyle interfered with his driving (Oh and the McLaren got outdated)
Nigel Mansell: Won the title only because the car was SO much better than anyone elses, didn't amount to crap in F1 afterwards mainly cause he was a whiner who overpriced himself.
Damon Hill: Won the title on similar grounds to Mansell, overpriced himself for Williams and went to Arrows for the money. Outside one stroke of luck in Spa where Ralf was told to let him win, didn't amount to crap afterwards.
and then Lewis himself who won the title BARELY and afterwards has been nothing but a laughing stock with the occasional splendid performance.

Ironically Jenson looks like he could be the first English double champion since Graham Hill, simply down to the fact that he has played his cards right as far as teams go, has kept his head on the game AND has a driving style that complements the cars of today. Too bad there is one Mr. Vettel in the way though.

Pretty good observation DonTirri. First time in a long time I don't feel like killing you for a post you made

Why haven't we handed this to Williams yet? It would take something stupendously moronic in the last 2 races to snatch ROTY away from them.

I still stand by my original post in this thread, but this time, I think I had them in the correct order...

dr-baker wrote:My three choices (in no particular order - the numbers are just to seperate the concepts out):

i). Williams: Is this really the same team that got me interested in F1 in the early and mid-1990s?

ii). The Bahrain GP: Need I say more? The surprise is to see it on the calendar for early next year, when nothing politically has been sorted out yet.

iii). A10 World Series & Superleague Formula: One was promised to start this month with a lot of hype in January, only to petter out by February. The other promised an expanded calendar into South America and Asia and ended up holding only two rounds all year, neither of which I have the slightest recollection of, despite have an interest in the series!

Williams, the Bahrain FIAsco and the Lotus name saga take the top 3 for me.

Been waiting until this point in the season to do this.

3. Renault: Remember those two podiums at the beginning of the year? Seems a long, long time ago now.

2. Hamilton/Massa/Webber: All three have been thrashed by their respective teammates this year. Hamilton needs to calm down a bit (Still amazed at how idiotic his crash with Maldonado and the post-race comments at Monaco were), whilst Massa looks like he wants to be anywhere but Formula 1. Webber just can't seem to get any luck either, the one race where Vettel doesn't finish and Webber needs a Massa spin to scrape 4th.

1. Williams: Obvious really. Maldonado looks out of his depth, Barrichello seems to never want to retire and their excellent last row lock-out sums up their season.

I have to give a special shout-out to a non-Formula 1 driver here, because he's made a move that is dumber than anything anyone has managed to do in Formula 1 this year (and that's saying a lot): Mikko Hirvonen has replaced Sebastien Ogier at Citroen. Hirvonen will join Sebastien Loeb for 2012 - who he will not be allowed to compete against. At all. From the beginning of the season. And if he does, Citroen will simply do to him what they did to Ogier and terminate his contract.

Captain Hammer wrote:I have to give a special shout-out to a non-Formula 1 driver here, because he's made a move that is dumber than anything anyone has managed to do in Formula 1 this year (and that's saying a lot): Mikko Hirvonen has replaced Sebastien Ogier at Citroen. Hirvonen will join Sebastien Loeb for 2012 - who he will not be allowed to compete against. At all. From the beginning of the season. And if he does, Citroen will simply do to him what they did to Ogier and terminate his contract.

Absolutely agreed... It was just one of the daftest moves I ever seen. Perhaps he admited to himself that he may not be champion. Ever. Loeb might smile to see that he has one rival covered, but I would love to see his face if Ogier ends up at Ford!

I have to say, I think Hamilton - although he has been useless at times - is gradually edging himself out of contention by actually winning races and being better than his team mate at some races. Compare his up and down season to the relentlessly deadbeat year of Webber and Massa.

DanielPT wrote:

Captain Hammer wrote:I have to give a special shout-out to a non-Formula 1 driver here, because he's made a move that is dumber than anything anyone has managed to do in Formula 1 this year (and that's saying a lot): Mikko Hirvonen has replaced Sebastien Ogier at Citroen. Hirvonen will join Sebastien Loeb for 2012 - who he will not be allowed to compete against. At all. From the beginning of the season. And if he does, Citroen will simply do to him what they did to Ogier and terminate his contract.

Absolutely agreed... It was just one of the daftest moves I ever seen. Perhaps he admited to himself that he may not be champion. Ever. Loeb might smile to see that he has one rival covered, but I would love to see his face if Ogier ends up at Ford!

That move has come pretty much out of the blue - yes, I know that there has been some tension between Ogier and Loeb, and between Ogier and Citroen, but I thought that both sides had been able to settle those differences when Ogier renewed his contract.
Whilst it makes sense for Citroen, given their desire to win the Constructors title (they said just that when they announced Hirvonen's contract with the team), I can't see the logic from Hirvonen's point of view, given how Citroen's team orders work (i.e. everything for Loeb) and he was Ford's favoured driver (though Latvala has had the better form in recent events).

Truth be told, though, the person I have the most sympathy for is Ogier - he had to sacrifice his position more than once for Loeb's benefit when he was ahead of Loeb, and give up on his own title ambitions, only to be repaid like this. Mind you, Ford is bound to be keen to poach Ogier for their team now Hirvonen has gone, though if they didn't the Mini WRC, as long as it is stable and well supported next year, wouldn't look like a bad alternative at the moment either, given their stronger than expected form this year.

I think that Loeb's dominance right now is only due to the lack of competition in WRC. Citroen is almost in a world of itself, the Fords don't seem to stand a chance, and Mini is rather far off as well. Unless WRC manages to attract some more manufacturers back into the sport, it's on its way to the grave.

My nominees:

Massa: Another awful season, completely outpaced by his teammate, tied up in lots of on-track incidents (some not his fault) and ultimately has never made the top 5 in any single race!! Doesn't deserve to keep his seat, but amazingly has for another year at the most!

Williams: What everyone else already said, plus the fact that i never hoped to see the day when Williams being a complete sell-out and resorting to overhyped pay drivers such as Maldonado (who i believe does deserve another season..)

Webber: Although i hate to nominate him, i must. While his teammate has waltzed his way (mostly) to 11 wins, he has only led 2 races all year, and never looked like either winning, or threatening Vettel. Must improve next year or the seat will be taken by the hordes of junior drivers waiting!

While i won't nominate Hamilton (he has had some incredible moments unlike the above listed) he does get an honourable mention alongside the slide of Renault, the Austin Grand Prix situation and qualifying this season..

My winner is: Felipe Massa

I nominate everyone bar Vettel's side of the garage as they have let him get away with a record breaking season......

3. Massa - Can't emerge from his teammate shadow even though his teammate has already won and scored some podiums

2. HRT - They should not be in F1

1. Williams - A pain to see in any race and I'm already tired of all their promises which then morphes into excuses and then 'next year we will sign [insert whatever; driver, sponsor, designer]' charade.

A very, very honorable mention to Jarno Trulli who must be driving for free right now. Hell, I may replace HRT with him in my reject podium.

And Captain, Petrov may have improve but he is not in the top 3 drivers right now. I give him kudos to call it like it is on Renault, though.

HRT is doing a lot better than several other new teams who have journeyed into F1 in the past. Hell, they're doing better than Vir- I mean, Marussia is doing.

Peter wrote:HRT is doing a lot better than several other new teams who have journeyed into F1 in the past. Hell, they're doing better than Vir- I mean, Marussia is doing.

That is true and they're signing some new sponsors but their cars are too slow to be in this category. I'm not sure but this year at the Monaco GP their practice time was beaten by GP2 and that should had never happened.

Guzuky wrote:

Peter wrote:HRT is doing a lot better than several other new teams who have journeyed into F1 in the past. Hell, they're doing better than Vir- I mean, Marussia is doing.

That is true and they're signing some new sponsors but their cars are too slow to be in this category. I'm not sure but this year at the Monaco GP their practice time was beaten by GP2 and that should had never happened.

Remember that HRT's practise session at Monaco was rubbish. Liuzzi was crashing left right and centre, and Karthikeyan was running only long runs to acclimatize himself with the racetrack.

Peter wrote:

Guzuky wrote:

Peter wrote:HRT is doing a lot better than several other new teams who have journeyed into F1 in the past. Hell, they're doing better than Vir- I mean, Marussia is doing.

That is true and they're signing some new sponsors but their cars are too slow to be in this category. I'm not sure but this year at the Monaco GP their practice time was beaten by GP2 and that should had never happened.

Remember that HRT's practise session at Monaco was rubbish. Liuzzi was crashing left right and centre, and Karthikeyan was running only long runs to acclimatize himself with the racetrack.

Yeah it's a bit harsh to vote for HRT, Marussia have done a lot worse. In Canada, HRT kept their head and moved above Marussia in the standings, whilst one of the Marussia's didn't qualify (but was allowed to start).

Captain Hammer wrote:I have to give a special shout-out to a non-Formula 1 driver here, because he's made a move that is dumber than anything anyone has managed to do in Formula 1 this year (and that's saying a lot): Mikko Hirvonen has replaced Sebastien Ogier at Citroen. Hirvonen will join Sebastien Loeb for 2012 - who he will not be allowed to compete against. At all. From the beginning of the season. And if he does, Citroen will simply do to him what they did to Ogier and terminate his contract.

Indeed, it made me blink when I heard about it. Given the history with Ogier, I can't think what Hirvonen is doing. Maybe he reckons that Loeb will soon get bored with strolling to world championships and retire, leaving him with the number one seat. Maybe he reckons that it will be better to have only one Citroen ahead of him in every rally rather than two. Mind you I thought Button was dumb for leaving the number one spot spot at Mercedes to go to McLaren as Hamilton's wingman, and look what has happened there.

And back to F1 !

I'd nominate:-

Williams, for all the reasons that have already been said. Given their facilities and experience they should be doing much better.

Hamilton, not so much for for his driving, which is at least entertaining. But for letting all the celebrity stuff go to his head, and just being generally girly and publicity seeking in how he has handled his problems. And for being part of the most feeble feud in F1 history.

Heidfeld, sadly for wasting his last chance in F1.

Ross Prawn wrote:

Captain Hammer wrote:I have to give a special shout-out to a non-Formula 1 driver here, because he's made a move that is dumber than anything anyone has managed to do in Formula 1 this year (and that's saying a lot): Mikko Hirvonen has replaced Sebastien Ogier at Citroen. Hirvonen will join Sebastien Loeb for 2012 - who he will not be allowed to compete against. At all. From the beginning of the season. And if he does, Citroen will simply do to him what they did to Ogier and terminate his contract.

Indeed, it made me blink when I heard about it. Given the history with Ogier, I can't think what Hirvonen is doing. Maybe he reckons that Loeb will soon get bored with strolling to world championships and retire, leaving him with the number one seat. Maybe he reckons that it will be better to have only one Citroen ahead of him in every rally rather than two. Mind you I thought Button was dumb for leaving the number one spot spot at Mercedes to go to McLaren as Hamilton's wingman, and look what has happened there.

The key difference between Button going to McLaren and Hirvonen going to Citroen is that McLaren have given Button full licence to compete on track against Hamilton, and equal support back in the garage. Citroen, on the other hand, impose team orders as a matter of habit (it could well be argued that Loeb only won the title last year because Citroen did impose team orders and Ford refused to do so), and might as well call themselves as "Team Loeb", such is their bias towards him...

My reject of the year has to be Williams, even in 2006 they weren't this bad, to think that they will be going into Brazil knowing they started at the tail of the field in the last race yet took pole in Brazil last year!

2nd - Pastor Maldonado, 18 races so far and just 1 point, exactly the same as Venezuela's last F1 driver Johnny Cecotto, yet in Johnny's day, 1 point was awarded for finishing 6th! OK, he was looking good at Monaco until Lewis did a Kimi on Adrian on him, but still he's definitely no Hulkenberg!

3rd - Renault, talk about a fall from grace!

Captain Hammer wrote:I have to give a special shout-out to a non-Formula 1 driver here, because he's made a move that is dumber than anything anyone has managed to do in Formula 1 this year (and that's saying a lot): Mikko Hirvonen has replaced Sebastien Ogier at Citroen. Hirvonen will join Sebastien Loeb for 2012 - who he will not be allowed to compete against. At all. From the beginning of the season. And if he does, Citroen will simply do to him what they did to Ogier and terminate his contract.

How about a random smattering of global Rejects of the Year to be included in the end of year podcast?

I'm thinking James Courtney, Aston Martin, ICE 1 Racing and Ducati could be front-runners!

Ed24 wrote:

Captain Hammer wrote:I have to give a special shout-out to a non-Formula 1 driver here, because he's made a move that is dumber than anything anyone has managed to do in Formula 1 this year (and that's saying a lot): Mikko Hirvonen has replaced Sebastien Ogier at Citroen. Hirvonen will join Sebastien Loeb for 2012 - who he will not be allowed to compete against. At all. From the beginning of the season. And if he does, Citroen will simply do to him what they did to Ogier and terminate his contract.

How about a random smattering of global Rejects of the Year to be included in the end of year podcast?

I'm thinking James Courtney, Aston Martin, ICE 1 Racing and Ducati could be front-runners!

ICE1RACING website news piece wrote:ICE1RACING motocross team has signed a Finnish MX1 rider Santtu Tiainen for 2012. The team owned by Kimi Räikkösen has promoted the Finnish talents in the past season and made it possible for new names to enter GP series. The team strives to create possibilities for new talents and bring the level of Finnish motocross up along with possibilities.

I think they have just edged the other front-runners!

Ed24 wrote:

Captain Hammer wrote:I have to give a special shout-out to a non-Formula 1 driver here, because he's made a move that is dumber than anything anyone has managed to do in Formula 1 this year (and that's saying a lot): Mikko Hirvonen has replaced Sebastien Ogier at Citroen. Hirvonen will join Sebastien Loeb for 2012 - who he will not be allowed to compete against. At all. From the beginning of the season. And if he does, Citroen will simply do to him what they did to Ogier and terminate his contract.

How about a random smattering of global Rejects of the Year to be included in the end of year podcast?

I'm thinking James Courtney, Aston Martin, ICE 1 Racing and Ducati could be front-runners!

A10 GP ought to be a nomination in this category. We have a thread on this, and the first sentence mentions that they seem to be serious about this. 11 months on, and nobody is any the wiser about it!

On track I'd say Williams for what has been a truly awful year for them. They need to find a direction if they are to ascend the order again.

Driver wise, it's been harder to deal with because no one has been dire - sure some people haven't shone but no one's been properly rejectful bar possibly Chandhok's token race which may have ruined his future.

My biggest reject though is the Bernie / BBC / Sky deal for allowing Sky to move their grubby mits on our sport and now I shall be unable to watch every race live. How taking it off the air live will ever make the sport more popular is beyond me and I'm still seething about it now.

3rd. Team Bahar
2nd. Williams
1st. Lewis Ramilton

1993DonningtonNo1 wrote:My reject of the year has to be Williams, even in 2006 they weren't this bad, to think that they will be going into Brazil knowing they started at the tail of the field in the last race yet took pole in Brazil last year!

2nd - Pastor Maldonado, 18 races so far and just 1 point, exactly the same as Venezuela's last F1 driver Johnny Cecotto, yet in Johnny's day, 1 point was awarded for finishing 6th! OK, he was looking good at Monaco until Lewis did a Kimi on Adrian on him, but still he's definitely no Hulkenberg!

3rd - Renault, talk about a fall from grace!

Maldonado manages to constantly equal or beat Rubens. Hulkenberg didn't.

Peter wrote:Maldonado manages to constantly equal or beat Rubens. Hulkenberg didn't.

True but that might be due to Barrichello simply going beyond caring with the crapbox he's been given. Then again, the Reverend has shown some qualifying pace this year

Priceless wrote:This is not definitive, but I already have a partial list... which may change depending on how the rest of the season plays out.

3rd: Vitantonio Liuzzi - it seems to me that the reigning ROTY could be heading to a back-to-back title, just as Vettel with the WDC. He's actually losing to Ricciardo, his only fair comparison since HRT can't really match the other cars...

2nd: Lewis Hamilton - as already said here, I also expected Hamilton to have the measure of Button throughout the season, but what happened was the inverse... Button making the most out of the McLaren car and delivering excellent performances, and doing that by always keeping his cool, while Hamilton seems incapable of doing that at present - shown by the crashes and over-aggressive moves we've seen lately. However, past results show that Hamilton is every last bit as capable of extracting the maximum performance of a car as Button is - he just needs the right state of mind, which Button has and Hamilton seems to be lacking this year.

1st: Williams F1 - If this is drivers only, it must go to Barrichello - saddens me, as a Brazilian F1 fan, to say this, but it's a harsh reality; even with Williams' car being as bad as it is he's been beaten by Maldonado for the last few races, it seems that the 19 consecutive seasons are taking their toll - looks like it's time for him to Hang Up The Keys. But as many have done, I'd give the provisional ROTY title to Williams as a whole - it's sad to see a team that once had a car that was called 'other-worldly' by none other than Ayrton Senna in this state. I sincerely hope their 2012 package can be more competitive...

perfectly said

Webber's win is why I didn't post my ROTY until after the season ended...

BTW, rejects in 2012:

The 'Hang Up The Keys" drivers (Schumacher, De la Rosa, Trulli, Barrichello?, and maybe Webber)

My revised podium:

3rd - Vitantonio Liuzzi
2nd - Williams
1st - Felipe Massa

I wanted to wait till the last race. I decided to go a little further and list the top (bottom?) 3 in 3 categories:

Drivers
3rd: Lewis Hamilton: very much crash-prone drive, he was like a quick, but inexperienced rookie all season - not what you expect from a World Champion
2nd: Felipe Massa: first full season for a Ferrari-driver without a podium since 1981 - put it next to Alonso's tally and we have our DBTMOTY
1st: Bruno Lalli: 2 points, other than that he had battles with the real Lotus/Caterham most of the time; when he had the chance (Spa, Interlagos), he blew it

Teams
3rd: Mercedes: high hopes, not even a podium delivered, so going backwards actually.
2nd: Renault: brilliant first 2 races, then going downhill - fast. Replacing an at least mediocre (by definition) driver by a ROTY-contender in the process
1st: Williams: I remember years, when 5 points for a race was disappointing from Williams - now that's what they managed during the whole season

Others
3rd: Red flag in Canada: Seriosuly, what do they have real wet tyres for? (Luckily, it turned out to be a great race anyway)
2nd: Super-reliability: resulting in boooring and easily predictable results and almost no chance for midfield/backmarkers for a big result
1st: Bahrain GP: the ultimate actionless Grand Prix

Now that the season is over, here are my top three for the year.

3. Lewis Hamilton: Okay, going into his early, and late season, it would be probably unfair to put him on the list. But it was his mid-to-late shenanigans that puts him on this list. He let his personal problems get in the way of his driving, he constantly ran into other drivers (Massa, and Maldanaldo in particular.), which cost him good podiums, possibly wins as well. For a while, he seemed to be making lame excuses for his troubles as well. (Like his "because I'm black" comment.) Or to put this in short: a record seven penalties in one season. Stuff that shouldn't be with a championship winning Formula 1 driver.

2. Felipe Massa: While he did regularly score points, and wasn't a bad year in terms of statistics. Being the first Ferrari driver in thirty years to not score a podium was something we didn't have in mind from him. Outclassed by Alonso, he was nowhere near with the top runners this year. Why Ferrari decided to keep him another year, we'll have no clue. This is the stuff that "Hang up the Keys" awards are made of. While Hamilton and Webber have been deadbeat teammates for parts of the year, Massa has been a deadbeat all year.

1. Williams: Oh how the mighty have fallen! Fallen much they have. This is the same team that dominated the 1992, and 1993 seasons, much like Red Bull has now. You'd never thought we would be crawling back begging for their awful 2006 season again, but you'd be wrong. After a respectable 2010 season where they scored 69 points, this year they have so far managed to only score 5. Four of them scored by the hard trying Barrachello, but even he couldn't save the team from disgrace. The car was slow in qualifying, and racing, failing to finish higher than 9th in the entire season. Pastor Maldanaldo aside from Monaco, was useless, and nothing more than a pay driver in the best sense possible. With the current legal troubles with the sponsorship as well, one wonders why they even bothered keeping him. Their fall from grace is just astonishing.