Grand Prix Rejects

Zetec wrote:

SgtPepper wrote:I've been thinking, is it not possible to have an automatic system for pit releases? We already have the lights, but I'm pretty sure they're man operated. If every car has a sensor in it that's used to detect when a drivers crosses through different sector points, surely it could be used know and time when there is a driver coming down the pitlane, and ergo reduce or stop all unsafe releases.

Thinking about the increasing incidents in the pitlane due to a shorter time the car stands still (I'm still waiting for the race, a lifting-jack gets stuck on the frontwing and gets pulled down the pitlane), it is maybe time to impose a minimum time, the car has to stand still.

Like this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hK2SrvL1Zes

inchworm wrote:

Zetec wrote:

SgtPepper wrote:I've been thinking, is it not possible to have an automatic system for pit releases? We already have the lights, but I'm pretty sure they're man operated. If every car has a sensor in it that's used to detect when a drivers crosses through different sector points, surely it could be used know and time when there is a driver coming down the pitlane, and ergo reduce or stop all unsafe releases.

Thinking about the increasing incidents in the pitlane due to a shorter time the car stands still (I'm still waiting for the race, a lifting-jack gets stuck on the frontwing and gets pulled down the pitlane), it is maybe time to impose a minimum time, the car has to stand still.

Like this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hK2SrvL1Zes

Well, that's the picture I had in my mind

Salamander wrote:

go_Rubens wrote:F1 is unique and has it's own rules. Unsafe pit releases should be reprimanded, which you don't see in most North American racing series. The fact of the matter is, unsafe pit releases are a part of F1, and shall stay that way. People claiming that unsafe releases should not be part of F1 must be messed up in the head (no offense intended). Ridiculous, if you ask me.

aaaa my head whyyyyyyy

So unsafe pit releases should be reprimanded, even though they are a part of F1 and you think people are silly for thinking they shouldn't be? Whaaaat? Do you even read what you write?

Well, the mystery of who writes Eddie Jordans post on the F1 Slate is now over...

inchworm wrote:

Zetec wrote:

SgtPepper wrote:I've been thinking, is it not possible to have an automatic system for pit releases? We already have the lights, but I'm pretty sure they're man operated. If every car has a sensor in it that's used to detect when a drivers crosses through different sector points, surely it could be used know and time when there is a driver coming down the pitlane, and ergo reduce or stop all unsafe releases.

Thinking about the increasing incidents in the pitlane due to a shorter time the car stands still (I'm still waiting for the race, a lifting-jack gets stuck on the frontwing and gets pulled down the pitlane), it is maybe time to impose a minimum time, the car has to stand still.

Like this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hK2SrvL1Zes

Yeah. Like that...

If there is a minimal time for the car to stand in its box, then the times would be close to the same for everyone except if there was a problem during the stop. It'd be pretty boring.

The lights are automatic. However, they can be manually used. Example, Felipe Massa at Singapore '08. And we all know how that turned out...

go_Rubens wrote:Yeah. Like that...

If there is a minimal time for the car to stand in its box, then the times would be close to the same for everyone except if there was a problem during the stop. It'd be pretty boring.

The lights are automatic. However, they can be manually used. Example, Felipe Massa at Singapore '08. And we all know how that turned out...

Yeah, it would suck for the race to be decided by the drivers' driving instead of pit stop times whilst simultaneously cutting down on injuries.

What would be the point of that? Cars would idle for no good reason and any stop slower than the minimum could end up in a hectic unsafe release. If you wish to hold a car for a second after the mechanics finished their work, it would again waste time and still possibly allow another car to come down the pitlane and either block exit or potentially cause an unsafe release.

I think stiffer fines and point deductions would be the only incentive for pit crews to be ordered to keep safety in mind.

Sublime_FA11C wrote:What would be the point of that? Cars would idle for no good reason and any stop slower than the minimum could end up in a hectic unsafe release. If you wish to hold a car for a second after the mechanics finished their work, it would again waste time and still possibly allow another car to come down the pitlane and either block exit or potentially cause an unsafe release.

I think stiffer fines and point deductions would be the only incentive for pit crews to be ordered to keep safety in mind.

No, I propose 3 strikes equals disqualification from teams and drivers championship

roblomas52 wrote:

Sublime_FA11C wrote:What would be the point of that? Cars would idle for no good reason and any stop slower than the minimum could end up in a hectic unsafe release. If you wish to hold a car for a second after the mechanics finished their work, it would again waste time and still possibly allow another car to come down the pitlane and either block exit or potentially cause an unsafe release.

I think stiffer fines and point deductions would be the only incentive for pit crews to be ordered to keep safety in mind.

No, I propose 3 strikes equals disqualification from teams and drivers championship

... that's pretty harsh. How about a fine after 1 strike, probation after 2, and disqualifcation/ban from the next race after 3?

Salamander wrote:

roblomas52 wrote:

Sublime_FA11C wrote:What would be the point of that? Cars would idle for no good reason and any stop slower than the minimum could end up in a hectic unsafe release. If you wish to hold a car for a second after the mechanics finished their work, it would again waste time and still possibly allow another car to come down the pitlane and either block exit or potentially cause an unsafe release.

I think stiffer fines and point deductions would be the only incentive for pit crews to be ordered to keep safety in mind.

No, I propose 3 strikes equals disqualification from teams and drivers championship

... that's pretty harsh. How about a fine after 1 strike, probation after 2, and disqualifcation/ban from the next race after 3?

Ok, I'm cool with that

There will be a 12 point penalty system introduced next year. For each offense (speeding, ignoring yellows, unsafe release, etc) 1-3 ponts will be given to a driver. These points are NOT reset after each season but are carried over into the next. Penalty points are set to expire after a year but wheter that means by date or race weekend idk. After accumulating 12 points the driver gets an automatic one race ban and the points are then reset to 0.

So no 3 strikes but it could be 4 strikes if the offenses are serious enough. These stack so a driver may collect quite a few over one weekend. What this system is designed to do is do away with reprimands and cash fines (although cash fines may still be added and teams cannot get penalty points so they may have to pay cash), and introduce a consistent penalty system throughout. Now some drivers get drive throughs for hardly anything (Sutil for example) and Webber's pitstop, though no fault of his own goes unpunished. What is 30.000 euros to Red Bull? Nothing. Technically losing all that time was also a penalty in itself though.

There was also talk of any car released without all wheels atached automatically getting the black flag (disqualification). This would put extra pressure on teams to give equal priority to speed and safety. It may not work so well when there's a mechanical failure but at least covering human error is progress.

Sublime_FA11C wrote:There will be a 12 point penalty system introduced next year. For each offense (speeding, ignoring yellows, unsafe release, etc) 1-3 ponts will be given to a driver. These points are NOT reset after each season but are carried over into the next. Penalty points are set to expire after a year but wheter that means by date or race weekend idk. After accumulating 12 points the driver gets an automatic one race ban and the points are then reset to 0.

The points are reset to 5, not 0.

Sublime_FA11C wrote:
There was also talk of any car released without all wheels atached automatically getting the black flag (disqualification). This would put extra pressure on teams to give equal priority to speed and safety. It may not work so well when there's a mechanical failure but at least covering human error is progress.

Reminds me of Mansell at Portugal 91 and it cost him the championship

roblomas52 wrote:

Sublime_FA11C wrote:
There was also talk of any car released without all wheels atached automatically getting the black flag (disqualification). This would put extra pressure on teams to give equal priority to speed and safety. It may not work so well when there's a mechanical failure but at least covering human error is progress.

Reminds me of Mansell at Portugal 91 and it cost him the championship

It contributed to him losing the championship, considering that he also lost wins in Canada and Belgium etc.

good_Ralf wrote:

roblomas52 wrote:

Sublime_FA11C wrote:
There was also talk of any car released without all wheels atached automatically getting the black flag (disqualification). This would put extra pressure on teams to give equal priority to speed and safety. It may not work so well when there's a mechanical failure but at least covering human error is progress.

Reminds me of Mansell at Portugal 91 and it cost him the championship

It contributed to him losing the championship, considering that he also lost wins in Canada and Belgium etc.

Hey guys, where is the ignition kill switch?

In all seriousness, Mansell made quite a few errors that year. Most notably Canada, but he lost victory in Belgium and spun off in Suzuka, ultimately sealing the deal for Senna.

It's the marshals and the phantom Marussia of Bianchi combined. Blows an engine and then proceeds to roll back onto the race surface.

It's not the first time it happend, and it won't be the last time it will happen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFoYmJK9S50

A formula 1 car doesn't have a handbrake, so the only thing to do would be left the gear engaged and the marshalls have to push the neutral button outside the cockpit, when pulling the car away.

Someone from Marrusia (forgot who) stated that with the engine destroyed, there was no way for Bianchi to put it in neutral. As for not parking the car in a safer spot... it was on fire?

Sublime_FA11C wrote: As for not parking the car in a safer spot... it was on fire?

... there was plenty of flat ground before the hill? And an access road?

Salamander wrote:

Sublime_FA11C wrote: As for not parking the car in a safer spot... it was on fire?

... there was plenty of flat ground before the hill? And an access road?

it was on fire
He was already going uphill when he had to pull of track. He could have done better i'll admit, but hindsight and all that. Should have paid more attention to where the access roads were too. He was on fire though.

In seriousnes, at driver meetings maybe more time should be spent discussing where and how to properly park cars. It could have been extremly dangerous if a pack of cars came in at speed and battleing each other. But fortunately yellow flags would have helped prevent that. Since there's no racing or overtaking allowed. I do wonder if someone may have been caught off guard since it's almost unheard of to have a driverless car sauntering across the track, and you wouldn't pay much attention to a parked car or expect it to creep onto the track. Both Vettel and Grosjean came in at full speed but managed to slow down for the flags and avoid the Marussia.

I read a proposal on Autosport that would give team's both cars 10 second stop/go for wheel-related unsafe release when done for the first time. Second similar offence would give black flag for both cars and third one ban IIRC.

Bleu wrote:I read a proposal on Autosport that would give team's both cars 10 second stop/go for wheel-related unsafe release when done for the first time. Second similar offence would give black flag for both cars and third one ban IIRC.

Seems harsh, but I guess it's fair.

Bleu wrote:I read a proposal on Autosport that would give team's both cars 10 second stop/go for wheel-related unsafe release when done for the first time. Second similar offence would give black flag for both cars and third one ban IIRC.

I don't think it's a good idea. It punishes the drivers, but the teams should be punished. I would punish the teams by taking points away from them in the constructors' championship. That punishment would hurt the teams more than a fine, but wouldn't punish the drivers.

pi314159 wrote:

Bleu wrote:I read a proposal on Autosport that would give team's both cars 10 second stop/go for wheel-related unsafe release when done for the first time. Second similar offence would give black flag for both cars and third one ban IIRC.

I don't think it's a good idea. It punishes the drivers, but the teams should be punished. I would punish the teams by taking points away from them in the constructors' championship. That punishment would hurt the teams more than a fine, but wouldn't punish the drivers.

Agreed. The driver does barely anything in a pit-stop and it is the responsibility of the pit crew, the lollipop man or traffic lights in particular, to signal the driver to go.
The big difficulty is to find a suitable penalty to hand to a the team that has a premature release.

pi314159 wrote:

Bleu wrote:I read a proposal on Autosport that would give team's both cars 10 second stop/go for wheel-related unsafe release when done for the first time. Second similar offence would give black flag for both cars and third one ban IIRC.

I don't think it's a good idea. It punishes the drivers, but the teams should be punished. I would punish the teams by taking points away from them in the constructors' championship. That punishment would hurt the teams more than a fine, but wouldn't punish the drivers.

I think the system is fine as it is.

good_Ralf wrote:The big difficulty is to find a suitable penalty to hand to a the team that has a premature release.

Yeah. I wonder what they'd do about that, thinking a lot as always. If it is the driver's fault (like Albers at Magny-Cours in 2007) then the driver should be disqualified or banned for a race or 2. The teams, well, I don't know.

go_Rubens wrote:

good_Ralf wrote:The big difficulty is to find a suitable penalty to hand to a the team that has a premature release.

Yeah. I wonder what they'd do about that, thinking a lot as always. If it is the driver's fault (like Albers at Magny-Cours in 2007) then the driver should be disqualified or banned for a race or 2. The teams, well, I don't know.

I dont see how a ban is a suitable punishment for an unsafe release.

Official decision time, and a pretty easy one, this.

Notwithstanding the shenanigans in the pits - two unsafe releases, one of which turned out to be very unsafe indeed, and Williams' problems with their front right - the runaway winner (pardon the pun) is Bianchi's phantom Marussia. That had to be one of the more bizarre sights seen in F1 for a while, which was almost made even more bizarre by the mobile crane almost following the MR02 across the track!

Extra points for bringing out the safety car which obliterated Romain Grosjean's tactical advantage and may have cost the Frenchman his first win.

Well it just had to be didn't it. Pure Reject Gold in my book. Awarding it to the pit-lane chaos wouldn't have been right for this race especially because of what happened to the cameraman

Who's the actual reject here? Bianchi? Marussia? The stewards? Or F1 rules that prevent cars from having a handbrake?

I think he means the actual car...