Grand Prix Rejects

Spectoremg wrote:

Salamander wrote:

Spectoremg wrote:Time to stop going all dewey-eyed about the underdogs and ask ourselves what's Grand Prix racing and what isn't?

If this is your view, I'm not sure this is the right forum for you...

No this is the perfect forum for me as I particularly enjoy being talked down to.

I can't tell when you're being serious or not anymore...

I liked the fierce battle in the middlefield. I think Force India maybe had score a point or two without the penalties.

Also, I see a lot of people saying Alonso is regretting his move to McLaren-Honda. I disagree. Alonso leaves Ferrari, in my point of view, because he was bored of fighting only for a podium, or a win or two in a season. Maybe he regret this move if Ferrari catch Mercedes, otherwise, not.

CoopsII wrote:

watka wrote: A lot have commentators have said he has brought an air of calm to the team; that's good news as it seems like the Vettel of old is back, not the guy who was stifled in the toxic atmosphere of Red Bull Racing.

Hang on, didn't he bring about most of that toxification himself? Either way, he and the team did a stunning job and I hope it continues. I'm really disappointed about Ericsson, though, he was doing so well once again.

I would say that the atmosphere arose because of Helmut Marko and the treatment of Vettel as the golden boy opposed to Webber who was abused as he had not gone through the driver programme. Vettel was a perfectly likeable character until hints of Red Bull favouritism came to light and he then played the part. Stifled is perhaps the wrong word, it makes him out to be a victim which he wasn't, but he became a machine which didn't serve him well when Red Bull eventually made a dud car, as they did last year.

watka wrote:

CoopsII wrote:

watka wrote: A lot have commentators have said he has brought an air of calm to the team; that's good news as it seems like the Vettel of old is back, not the guy who was stifled in the toxic atmosphere of Red Bull Racing.

Hang on, didn't he bring about most of that toxification himself? Either way, he and the team did a stunning job and I hope it continues. I'm really disappointed about Ericsson, though, he was doing so well once again.

I would say that the atmosphere arose because of Helmut Marko and the treatment of Vettel as the golden boy opposed to Webber who was abused as he had not gone through the driver programme. Vettel was a perfectly likeable character until hints of Red Bull favouritism came to light and he then played the part. Stifled is perhaps the wrong word, it makes him out to be a victim which he wasn't, but he became a machine which didn't serve him well when Red Bull eventually made a dud car, as they did last year.

Well put. I think, in time, most of us are going to end up deciding that we actually quite like Vettel. And dislike Red Bull even more.

Warren Hughes wrote:Well put. I think, in time, most of us are going to end up deciding that we actually quite like Vettel. And dislike Red Bull even more.

I must agree. Something about Seb at Ferrari is refreshing and satisfying. I think much of his hate is more of a result of RBR dominance as he was the golden boy there winning everything.

go_Rubens wrote:

Warren Hughes wrote:Well put. I think, in time, most of us are going to end up deciding that we actually quite like Vettel. And dislike Red Bull even more.

I must agree. Something about Seb at Ferrari is refreshing and satisfying. I think much of his hate is more of a result of RBR dominance as he was the golden boy there winning everything.

Indeed. The more time goes by, the more I think that it wasn't Vettel I disliked, but rather what he stood for.

Plus no one likes seeing a gritty Aussie getting screwed over.

All seems to be forgiven though - I'm not the only Aussie that enjoyed watching Seb win that.

To me, Vettel would be more likeable than he actually is if he lost A) the really annoying celebratory radio messages (which from now on I will have to mute) and B) that finger.

I think it was due to Webber who people loved getting the 'short end of the stick'. I was nice seeing Seb win in the Ferrari.

People don't like domination in F1 but love it in other sports which really confuses me.

James1978 wrote:To me, Vettel would be more likeable than he actually is if he lost A) the really annoying celebratory radio messages (which from now on I will have to mute) and B) that finger.

Seconded. His personality of rubbing in his wins to everyone else has never been endearing to me.

Rob Dylan wrote:His personality of rubbing in his wins to everyone else has never been endearing to me.

Fairly certain he doesn't actually care about that and is more just happy that he won.

Salamander wrote:

Rob Dylan wrote:His personality of rubbing in his wins to everyone else has never been endearing to me.

Fairly certain he doesn't actually care about that and is more just happy that he won.

I don't think I've ever seen Vettel or any other notable driver "rubbing it in" when they win. Celebrate, yes, but that's all. The closest I think I've ever seen a driver rubbing it in was Schumacher patronisingly congratulating Raikkonen for getting fastest lap in a race (a race Schumacher had just won) with the implication being, look, you went fastest of all of us......and I still beat you

I can understand this change of heart, as I never could stand Alonso when he was with Renault, then he was run of out McLaren and had my sympathy. By the time he got to Ferrari I quite enjoyed watching him race.

what a great race! a rollercoaster of emotions haha
hugely disappointed after Q2. Nervous about kimi starting alongside pastor. utterly hopeless after the first lap.
then hopeful after the SC. excited during the battles and kimi's charge back up. and slightly emotional with seb's celebration/reaction to his first win at ferrari...
really great grand prix!

About Seb's celebration ... well, at least it's different isn't it? other drivers basically follow a protocol of thanking the team and etc. (not that they shouldn't, but it doesn't sound...genuine)

Also, what's with the over-apologetic reaction to mild swears on skyF1?! I find that reaction *extremely* annoying. Not only there're lots of bad words in movies/series everyday, but also ..it's live tv! in the heat of emotions, it feels sincere even
(it's not like he told everyone to stuff it)

Dj_bereta wrote:I liked the fierce battle in the middlefield. I think Force India maybe had score a point or two without the penalties.

Also, I see a lot of people saying Alonso is regretting his move to McLaren-Honda. I disagree. Alonso leaves Ferrari, in my point of view, because he was bored of fighting only for a podium, or a win or two in a season. Maybe he regret this move if Ferrari catch Mercedes, otherwise, not.

FINALLY SOMEONE WITH BRAINS.

I laugh at all those McLaren ROTR nominations for Malaysia. I mean, McLaren did much better than they expected themselves and I'm sure there's a full bucket of performance to be unlocked from both the car and the engine. The sole fact that they were fighting the Red Bulls already at the 2nd race of the season is quite encouraging given what we saw in Australia and their pre-season form. Alonso was the first to know they wouldn't be fighting for anything this season. I heard this comment yesterday and I think is quite spot on: Ferrari try to improve by copying, not innovating . This is something I totally agree with and one of the main reasons Alonso left Ferrari; He wanted to go somewhere they try to think out of the box, which is how first Red Bull and later Mercedes got to the top spot, and McLaren seems to be that place. They're taking a different approach and Alonso left because he was convinced it would be a winning project... in two or three years time. Alonso himself doesn't seem to have a problem with this, so why would anyone say it's a bad career move? Only time will tell, but not in two, four or six races time. Let's bring this back at the end of 2017. Ferrari also seemed a great career move back in 2009.
Also, Vettel and Ferrari did a great job this weekend, but I don't believe they're going to challenge Mercedes at all. Maybe, at some races they can do it, but over the course of the season Mercedes has the better package.

Am I the only one who thinks Vettel's celebration was refreshing? I'm kind've tired of hearing Hamilton go "Thanks guys good job" in a boring voice over the radio when he wins... Vettel's celebration was actually genuine and with pure happiness. Also, I don't get why the finger annoys people when most drivers do the same....

I like the Vettel finger purely because it's not the same old fist. And yeah, I didn't realise how bored I was of "thanks guys" until I heard yes^20 again.

We seldom heard Seb celebrate quite like that at Red Bull - it often sounded a little, well, forced. Like, 'this fits my persona so this is what I'm going to do'. I found it quite joyous to see just how much his win meant to him yesterday, it's that as much as anything else that's most likely to win me round.

Aerond wrote:

Dj_bereta wrote:I liked the fierce battle in the middlefield. I think Force India maybe had score a point or two without the penalties.

Also, I see a lot of people saying Alonso is regretting his move to McLaren-Honda. I disagree. Alonso leaves Ferrari, in my point of view, because he was bored of fighting only for a podium, or a win or two in a season. Maybe he regret this move if Ferrari catch Mercedes, otherwise, not.

FINALLY SOMEONE WITH BRAINS.

I laugh at all those McLaren ROTR nominations for Malaysia. I mean, McLaren did much better than they expected themselves and I'm sure there's a full bucket of performance to be unlocked from both the car and the engine. The sole fact that they were fighting the Red Bulls already at the 2nd race of the season is quite encouraging given what we saw in Australia and their pre-season form. Alonso was the first to know they wouldn't be fighting for anything this season. I heard this comment yesterday and I think is quite spot on: Ferrari try to improve by copying, not innovating . This is something I totally agree with and one of the main reasons Alonso left Ferrari; He wanted to go somewhere they try to think out of the box, which is how first Red Bull and later Mercedes got to the top spot, and McLaren seems to be that place. They're taking a different approach and Alonso left because he was convinced it would be a winning project... in two or three years time. Alonso himself doesn't seem to have a problem with this, so why would anyone say it's a bad career move? Only time will tell, but not in two, four or six races time. Let's bring this back at the end of 2017. Ferrari also seemed a great career move back in 2009.
Also, Vettel and Ferrari did a great job this weekend, but I don't believe they're going to challenge Mercedes at all. Maybe, at some races they can do it, but over the course of the season Mercedes has the better package.

It's certainly the case that even Allison thinks that Vettel's victory in Malaysia was a freak event rather than a sign of a long term trend, mainly because it relied on a strategic mistake by Mercedes and freakishly high track temperatures (between 55-65ºC) that are extremely unlikely to occur again - even desert tracks like Abu Dhabi or Bahrain haven't seen track temperatures quite that high in recent years.

As others are saying, it'll only look like a bad decision if Ferrari can sustain this sort of performance in the longer term - after all, there were races last season where Mercedes were under threat from other teams, such as in Austria or Abu Dhabi, but their overall competitiveness was not in doubt.
McLaren may be performing badly at the moment, but they are already beginning to make strides in their performance and have also begun introducing new aero pieces - they had an "S" duct on the car for Malaysia - suggesting that Prodromou is already beginning to bring his influence to bear.

Aerond wrote:

Dj_bereta wrote:I liked the fierce battle in the middlefield. I think Force India maybe had score a point or two without the penalties.

Also, I see a lot of people saying Alonso is regretting his move to McLaren-Honda. I disagree. Alonso leaves Ferrari, in my point of view, because he was bored of fighting only for a podium, or a win or two in a season. Maybe he regret this move if Ferrari catch Mercedes, otherwise, not.

FINALLY SOMEONE WITH BRAINS.

I agree wholeheartedly. I thought that this was actually a very good weekend for McLaren. The engine managed to stay together, they got some decent mileage, and aren't as woefully off the pace as first thought. All credit to them for introducing new updates so soon, despite the possibility that they don't have a basic grasp on how good or bad the car actually is, due to all of the issues they've had with the engine limiting track time.

Plus Fernando would know what he was getting himself into. He knows this is a long term project.

Since Williams finished well over a minute down on the Ferraris in Sepang, would that be down to raw pace, or was it the track conditions/temperature or something else etc? I'm not sure if they're clearly someway slower than Ferrari regarding how Massa managed to cling onto Vettel in Australia, or perhaps Williams is uniquely suited to the track there.

good_Ralf wrote:Since Williams finished well over a minute down on the Ferraris in Sepang, would that be down to raw pace, or was it the track conditions/temperature or something else etc? I'm not sure if they're clearly someway slower than Ferrari regarding how Massa managed to cling onto Vettel in Australia, or perhaps Williams is uniquely suited to the track there.

I don't think it was a fair comparison, since both Massa and Bottas got stuck behind Hulk's train for a long time.

Dj_bereta wrote:

good_Ralf wrote:Since Williams finished well over a minute down on the Ferraris in Sepang, would that be down to raw pace, or was it the track conditions/temperature or something else etc? I'm not sure if they're clearly someway slower than Ferrari regarding how Massa managed to cling onto Vettel in Australia, or perhaps Williams is uniquely suited to the track there.

I don't think it was a fair comparison, since both Massa and Bottas got stuck behind Hulk's train for a long time.

Williams did openly admit throughout the weekend that they were a few tenths of a second off the pace of the Ferrari, which I imagine is partly due to the straight line speed the Ferraris where achieving as well as the Ferraris using their tyres well in hot temperatures. Whilst I cannot see Williams stepping up to challenge Mercedes, I do anticipate some interesting battles between them and Ferrari this season.

tommykl wrote:The more time goes by, the more I think that it wasn't Vettel I disliked, but rather what he stood for.

What did he stand for?

CoopsII wrote:

tommykl wrote:The more time goes by, the more I think that it wasn't Vettel I disliked, but rather what he stood for.

What did he stand for?

Institutionalised domination, I guess?

tommykl wrote:

CoopsII wrote:

tommykl wrote:The more time goes by, the more I think that it wasn't Vettel I disliked, but rather what he stood for.

What did he stand for?

Institutionalised domination, I guess?

Indeed. The perception that Webber could not touch Vettel because of his team worsened everything about RBR - Vettel domination. That and the general idea that Vettel had 'lucked' into the all conquering car and was presented his four titles. Last year did not helped after being destroyed by Ricciardo. Beating Raikkonen in a free-for-all will do him good because despite all evidence people still think Raikkonen is awesome and one of the top drivers in this sport.

DanielPT wrote:Indeed. The perception that Webber could not touch Vettel because of his team worsened everything about RBR - Vettel domination. That and the general idea that Vettel had 'lucked' into the all conquering car and was presented his four titles. Last year did not helped after being destroyed by Ricciardo. Beating Raikkonen in a free-for-all will do him good because despite all evidence people still think Raikkonen is awesome and one of the top drivers in this sport.

Not sure I'd agree on Raikkonen still being at the top. His fluctuation in performance depending on the weekend has gotten more and more extreme the older he has gotten, especially since he won the Abu Dhabi race back a few years ago. I think with the clear improvement of this year's Ferrari compared to last year has gotten him back on a form for now, but I question whether he could keep up that momentum throughout the year ala 2012. Especially if (as people are claiming) that Ferrari's win will be a lucky one-off for this year.

I still won't really like Vettel even if he's going to drive for Team Enstone or Team Silverstone, but his RB -> Ferrari shift has done him good. I don't like him mainly because of his behaviour in midseason 2010 (Turkey - Belgium), but I feel I find these drivers extremely annoying when they dominate the WDC, like Lewis last year and Michael in 2000-2004. That has nothing to do just with the domination, it's the combination of domination and behaviour for me.

GerhardTalger wrote:I still won't really like Vettel even if he's going to drive for Team Enstone or Team Silverstone, but his RB -> Ferrari shift has done him good. I don't like him mainly because of his behaviour in midseason 2010 (Turkey - Belgium), but I feel I find these drivers extremely annoying when they dominate the WDC, like Lewis last year and Michael in 2000-2004. That has nothing to do just with the domination, it's the combination of domination and behaviour for me.

A lot of people don't love domination and arrogance put together in sport. Personally I odn't mind but a lot of people dislike it. Not just in F1 as well.

I just dislike winners. For the simple reason that i can't relate to winners. That's why i'm always the kind of person to support underdogs.